Guild Wars 2

Ok, I understand that there aren’t supposed to be “tanks” in the game. Aggro is supposed to be dynamic, with constant aggro swaps etc. etc. I’ve heard of so many factors that go into aggro: distance, damage output, current health, who has the most armor, who’s healing, who has certain boons/conditions, etc. How many of these are true and how many of these are rumors… I dunno… wish that could be cleared up.

However, here’s the problem. I play my warrior in full exotics, balanced for damage and tankiness. There’s no way that I can tank a mob 100% of the time. I like to believe that I play at a higher level than the majority of the playerbase (not trying to be elitist, but hear me out) and as a result, I play efficiently outputting consistently high damage while in a tanky spec. Without access to anything like damage meters I can’t say this with complete certainty, but I’m pretty sure I output more damage than many of these glass specced players that are constantly running around and panicking. Add high damage output to fact that (I believe) many mobs prioritize high armor targets and I believe this explains why I almost always have aggro on everything. I’m not a tank, I’m not supposed to be, if I try to disengage the enemies they’ll almost always stick on me… there’s a problem with this.

If one player outshines the rest of their group, outputting a balance of damage and having tanky stats, they shouldn’t be punished for it by being beat down by every mob in a pull. I eventually run out of rolls and defensive utilities and go down, and then as soon as I’m up again, they’re back on me (sometimes they’ll even stay on me while I’m downed). Point is, aggro is often not dynamic, someone is forced into the “tank” role when they’re not actually a tank. I’d also want more concrete details on threat as a lot of what I’m saying is speculation based off of observation.

Trust me, they don’t prioritize high armor characters. I play an elementalist and I have the exact same problem as you with less survivability even with Toughness gear. As soon as I’m on a mobs agro list, I have to stop all actions (no helping allies or hurting enemies) move away and pray some one does enough to pull them off me before I die. (I get at most 3-4 dodges and one invunerability type skill that half the time doesn’t stop new damage and never stops existing conditions from doing damage, before I’m dead.) I have a very limited number of non-aoe abilities which means I usualy end up with a group on me that won’t let go which just makes surviving that much harder.

Oh, and gear makes little difference in survivability for me.

An elementalist in pure DPS gear is NOT a glass cannon, they are a tissue tactical nuke. An elementalist in Toughness gear is a glass cannon.

Are you talking in dungeons, or out in the world for DEs or what?

mulch.2586:

Are you talking in dungeons, or out in the world for DEs or what?

Everywhere, but specifically dungeons. I know all mobs have different aggro priorities, some enemies will target the lowest armored/hp targets or furthest targets (I’ve noticed it specifically with a few mobs/bosses in HotW), but more often than not everything will be attacking me.

You got high damage and high armor because you are a warrior, don’t give yourself too much credit.

Sebyos.4089:

You got high damage and high armor because you are a warrior, don’t give yourself too much credit.

This is in a setting where other warriors and guardians exist too… Shouldn’t the aggro be getting swapped amongst us? Point is I’m avoiding damage with proper dodging and skill usage, building traits properly, gearing so I don’t get one shot, all to maximize damage without getting myself killed… but then I get all the aggro and will be the first to die anyways

I don’t have a warrior. Well, I do, but he’s sub-20 still. My heavy armor guy is guardian. There’s some hits we take just fine. There’s some hits we can manage if we’re active/proactive. And there’s some hits we just can’t afford to take at all.

You’re not going to tank in any traditional sense of the word. If you’re doing great damage and not able to live or shake aggro, prob’ly that means your gear and/or spec isn’t working for you. Go more defensive. Then you’ll survive better and prob’ly take aggro less.

I think a big portion of who gets the most attention is who hits it first and definitely proximity. Basically never will a mob run thru/over me to get to someone else who’s doing damage.

For me a big part of not taking damage is applying blinds, blocks, and whatnot at appropriate times, in addition to positioning/dodging.

mulch.2586:

I don’t have a warrior. Well, I do, but he’s sub-20 still. My heavy armor guy is guardian. There’s some hits we take just fine. There’s some hits we can manage if we’re active/proactive. And there’s some hits we just can’t afford to take at all.

You’re not going to tank in any traditional sense of the word. If you’re doing great damage and not able to live or shake aggro, prob’ly that means your gear and/or spec isn’t working for you. Go more defensive. Then you’ll survive better and prob’ly take aggro less.

I think a big portion of who gets the most attention is who hits it first and definitely proximity. Basically never will a mob run thru/over me to get to someone else who’s doing damage.

For me a big part of not taking damage is applying blinds, blocks, and whatnot at appropriate times, in addition to positioning/dodging.

Thing is, I’m already heavily shifted towards being tanky. I’m wearing all knights or tough/vit/power + soldier runes and points invested in defensive trees. Sometimes I’ll swap in some berserker gear. And if my theory on most mobs prioritizing higher armored targets is correct, building more defensively would just further make me the only target.

My goal with my build was to make it so I can DPS while not being a glass cannon that dies to splash damage and can take a hit when I do get aggro. Also, building more defensively is exactly what I thought ANet didn’t want because that’s creating a dedicated tank, rather than aggro being constantly swapped around.

Also, I have an 80 guardian as well, and they have many more tools to stay in a fight indefinitely and tank because of blinds, heals, blocks, and protection. My guardian often becomes a “dedicated tank” in a game where it isn’t supposed to exist. Warriors just get to die a slow death as they get whittled away because the incoming damage > health being gained.

Something that I feel is sometimes overlooked is control abilities, espcially in pugs. Things like immobolize, blind, cripple, daze and stun, weakness and chill. All of these things reduce enemy damage output, mobility and (in the cases of daze and stun) reduce stacks of defiance to interrupt those punishing channeled/cast timebilities. This is the “Control” feature that essentially replaces the tank role, and it is about reducing or preventing the enemies from doing damage as opposed to being able to take damage.

Now when I say overlooked, what I mean is that sometimes when I’m in a dungeon I don’t see anyone else utilizing these
these kinds of things when they can play such a huge role in keeping everyone alive. Normally to easily reduce defiance on bosses to stop them from casting a particularly nasty skill you need at least two people who can cast daze or stun on them, some classes can build so that they have up to 2 or 3 stuns/dazes available to do just this, although these kinds of builds aren’t very balanced in terms of damage/support/control. Which is why for a dungeon build it is important of being mindful of the balance between these three features and having some form of control available, which you don’t tend to get in a pick up group.

I think, ideally, in a dungeon group there should be enough of a spread among the members to effectively avoid taking deadly amounts of damage, in terms of what conditions and what boons are availalble in an encounter.
Actually having this happen, especially in a pick up, is another thing entirely.

That’s not an excuse not to be mindful of these kinds of things though :P

cosmik.2539:

Something that I feel is sometimes overlooked is control abilities, espcially in pugs. Things like immobolize, blind, cripple, daze and stun, weakness and chill. All of these things reduce enemy damage output, mobility and (in the cases of daze and stun) reduce stacks of defiance to interrupt those punishing channeled/cast timebilities. This is the “Control” feature that essentially replaces the tank role, and it is about reducing or preventing the enemies from doing damage as opposed to being able to take damage.

Now when I say overlooked, what I mean is that sometimes when I’m in a dungeon I don’t see anyone else utilizing these
these kinds of things when they can play such a huge role in keeping everyone alive. Normally to easily reduce defiance on bosses to stop them from casting a particularly nasty skill you need at least two people who can cast daze or stun on them, some classes can build so that they have up to 2 or 3 stuns/dazes available to do just this, although these kinds of builds aren’t very balanced in terms of damage/support/control. Which is why for a dungeon build it is important of being mindful of the balance between these three features and having some form of control available, which you don’t tend to get in a pick up group.

I think, ideally, in a dungeon group there should be enough of a spread among the members to effectively avoid taking deadly amounts of damage, in terms of what conditions and what boons are availalble in an encounter.
Actually having this happen, especially in a pick up, is another thing entirely.

That’s not an excuse not to be mindful of these kinds of things though :P

I can’t trust pick ups to even do enough to get aggro in the first place… expecting them to deviate from their signet builds and whatnot feels even more realistic lol. I always swap my utilities. My base build is shouts, but depending on the situation I’ll swap them out for some extra CC or whatever the situation calls for. But of course, I’ll eventually run out of those tools and then all the aggro is on me anyways… so I go down.

Ideally, all the aggro wouldn’t be on me in the first place because everyone’s pulling their weight, but ideal groups are hard to come by. Tweaking aggro to shift around a bit more would help alleviate this.

I tried to give a hint.

I’ve never seen a mob go thru me to get to someone behind me. If you want a break from aggro, step behind that ranger’s pet. Or behind that party member. This isn’t a strict collision-model type game, but it’s like it’s soft-coded that you’re not supposed to go thru your target. So pretend like you’re using them as a pick, just like in basketball.

And I’d suggest going to the warrior forum. There you can get some tips from more expert players how they manage things. The problem really isn’t that you need an ideal group. We’ve all done dungeons with 4 light and 1 medium or other seemingly-poorly composed groups and found success. So the problem has to be approach/strategy/tactics.

Tank is not a combat role, and never has been. Tank is just someone who controls the fight. That’s all- the traditional meatshield version of Tank is one, very simple way of controlling a foe. Get their attention and keep it. Very simple, very easy for game designers to balance, and not very interesting imo. GW2 gives you many more options, and then distributes them among the group.

Depending on the fight, my Elementalist can “Tank” -that is, control the encounter- better then a warrior can. In others, a warrior will do better. In all of them, one person will not be doing it 100% of the time. It’s not how GW2 is designed.

mulch.2586:

. Or behind that party member. This isn’t a strict collision-model type game, but it’s like it’s soft-coded that you’re not supposed to go thru your target.

Single target attacks don’t go through the target- especially noticeable with projectiles. You may simply be absorbing the blows aimed at the person you are stepping in front of. This makes a good peeling tactic actually.

mulch.2586:

The problem really isn’t that you need an ideal group. We’ve all done dungeons with 4 light and 1 medium or other seemingly-poorly composed groups and found success. So the problem has to be approach/strategy/tactics.

When I say ideal, I mean playing ideally, not having an ideal makeup. The typical pug will pay no heed to the alien notion of strategy and therefore won’t play “ideally.” There’s not really much to manage when you have 5 mobs on you, you’re out of utilities, and you’re out of dodges… you just have to pray that your party does something about it.

All I’m calling for is a tweak in aggro mechanics so that someone doesn’t end up with all the mobs on them if they’re outperforming/outgearing the rest of their group.

/blink

If you think armor’s the culprit, why don’t you just mix in a few non-knight’s pieces?

Vox Hollow.2736:

/blink

If you think armor’s the culprit, why don’t you just mix in a few non-knight’s pieces?

Armor is just one of many factors. If I put in more berserker (sometimes I do), my damage output goes higher (meaning generating more threat) + less damage mitigation fom splash/unavoidable damage. Valkyrie, I suppose could be a solution, but crit damage is a terrible stat on armor (efficiency wise… I won’t get into the details) and vitality on warriors is highly inefficient because of our high base health. Gearing Valkyrie is basically making myself weaker so I won’t generate as much threat.

And even then, if I simply outgear all my teammates (not everyone has full exotics), still have higher toughness, do a lot more damage than them, etc… I’d still end up with all the aggro

It’s rather interesting. I myself am a rather tanky engineer and one time, I had the most toughness in the group, so naturally, i was the one who charged head-on to mobs to get their aggro, but I often lose it esp with high hp mobs to my warrior friend who’s specc’d for pure damage, and he just kites the mob. I can’t do much to get the aggro back to me. and while I certainly can’t tank it 100% of the time, I take less dmg than my warrior friend.

I only play two charicters, elementalist and a warrior. I did CM story mode for the first time tonite on both my 80 warrior with rares/one exotic and my 66 elementalist in blues with the same type of mixed level classes. I wont even get into how horribly hard CM is… thats for another day.

I died so much on my warrior I wanted to quit. Basicly once the mobs are on me, thats it. They are on me till im either out of stamina to dodge or 3 shot me. (seemed to be an avg of 6 mobs per spawn so always one there to give you a finishing blow). Warriors lack any type of damage reduction, but they are so fun to play.

The elementalist on the other hand died a few times, but has soooo much get out of jail free utility buffs its crazy. And god bless Anet for buffing ring of fire to cripple… simply the best best best combo field in the game now. The dungeon run just went so much smoother playing my “squishy” mage.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro Welcome^^

Zora.8437:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro Welcome^^

I’ve seen this before and is part of the reason I even made the post in the first place. It’s a rough guide to aggro that I believe isn’t even 100% accurate, but it gives you a good idea of how aggro works. That priority list is somewhat true, though I believe there are plenty other of factors not accounted for. And any in-game trials prove that proximity isn’t always the #1 determining factor (and I feel rarely is) for aggro so backing away isn’t always the answer for losing aggro.

i personally think class and the toughness stat control aggro in a dungeon environment, on my guardian with stacked toughness i hold aggro from the first attack until the mobs death on every pull and boss fight, even downed doesnt seem to turn them away. Perhaps even specific abilitys draw mobs attention

In my experience aggro can be caused by a few things, toughness, armour, healing power, and damage. There may even be a bug that causes some to gain more than they should, but it’s hard to prove unless your in a group with the one that has the bug on them, then you witness some very strange aggro behaviour take place. The only effective way to lose aggro is to log out and back in again.

Definitely toughness and damage. Most of the times mobs go after players with low toughness or high DPS first.
I play a glass cannon thief and in dungeons mobs really like to hit me.

On a side note, ever tried to take an underleveld character to a much higher level zone? It’s funny how mobs aggro you from a mile away.

That wiki post is very obviously wrong

I do think proximity has a bearing on it, I am sure damage does also, but I notice dodge rolling away usually doesn’t help, and that wearing a shield doesn’t help often at all

There might be some element of direct damage vs condition damage in the equation, and there might be a simple fact that different mobs have different aggro rules

Either way, it is by no means a simple affair, and it is a question that has not yet been conclusively answered

Well when i first heard about the game not having trinity, not having tank, my first thought was, well someone has to tank…. So this is the result, basically since there are no conclusive answers, in the enf people are forced to be tanks.

more like, in the end, people are forced to take care of themselves primarily and keep an eye on the mobs and what they do and where they go and not rely on others (mainly one person, aka tank) so heavily that the only thing they do is sit and spam damage skills

AW Lore.5682:

more like, in the end, people are forced to take care of themselves primarily and keep an eye on the mobs and what they do and where they go and not rely on others (mainly one person, aka tank) so heavily that the only thing they do is sit and spam damage skills

True, but if the OP is correct, that he tanks about 100% of the time, and he never signed up to be a tank, then what is our suggestion for him? Because this means he is the only one who has to keep an eye on the mob, and the rest of the party are just sitting and spam damage skill, i don’t think that’s fair.

it happens, sometimes i have had it in my guardian, all tank specced, if i get the attention and dont move around, dont use my skills, dont dodge out, i will go down.

if he is specced for damage and “tankiness”, he knows he will get the attention of the mob, so what to do? dodge out, roll out, wait for skills to cooldown and go in and attack then out, swap to ranged weapons, if he keeps himself away from the mobs, they will eventually lose interest in him (speaking of dungeons with mobs with lots of hp) and then ago after the other players.

alternatively he can just stop dealing damage and let the teammembers do their share of damage as well, fi he is being chased, his teammates should be using cc to help him survive/stay out of boss range.

other option, he should start experimenting/taking anectodal/gut feelings of how much damage means how much aggro, if unleashing all his skills one time each means that the mob will chase him for straight out 10 seconds, he can play it so he knows how much time he can have the mob on him and then start dodging/stopping damage dealing till he loses aggro, recovers up then goes at it again.

alternative fluff choice:
be happy, you are being considered the singlest, greatest threat in your group and the ai is smart enough to realize it and put you as priority to take down, as the primary source of success for your group comes from you (but dont let it get to your head, go ahead and try to solo, im sure you’d get owned (in dungeons im talking about))