Guild Wars 2

Wethospu.6437:

I have heard about this thing called skill-based progression.

it’s a myth, that’s all there is to it. It’s like company make products to please their fans of previous version of their products, it doesn’t exist

Apathy.6430:

Ualtar.5047:

Apathy.6430:

Ualtar.5047:

Apathy.6430:

“Vertical progression” (I hate the term but it does make sense) makes the whole being good thing irrelevant. Oh, you finished AC EM with a full group of 35s? Cool story bro, we do it in 7 minutes on our level 80 full exotic group. Inflated stats remove any kind of achievement from most of the game.

You got stronger armor at level 20 in GW then you had at level 5, 10, or 15. That is just the way games work. At least you can go back to old content in this game. Level 10 stuff as a level 20 is boring in GW.

You hit level 20 about 15% of the way through the game in the later two games. It was nothing more than an extended tutorial.

But really cool story, bro.

ok…but after 3 months it wasn’t that way. Sorry didn’t realize we were comparing a 3 month old game to a 2 or 3 year old game.

so umm…cool story bra

Ah, so we should expect the game to take a step back from the later GW expansions.

Makes sense.

Depends on what you mean a step back. If you mean having to build the game to the same point as an old game then yes. It is impossible to create a new MMO with say the economy already humming. It is impossible to create a new MMO with everybody decked out in the best armors.

Eventually, there will be expansions in GW2. For all we know new characters in those expansions will level quickly and obtain good armor quickly like GW1. But right now, you can’t compare Nightfall GW1 with brand new GW2.

rchu.8945:

Wethospu.6437:

I have heard about this thing called skill-based progression.

it’s a myth, that’s all there is to it. It’s like company make products to please their fans of previous version of their products, it doesn’t exist

GW1 with better graphics would not have sold well. I played GW1 for 3 years, and I doubt I would have bought an updated version of it. That would be 3 copies of the game not sold (me, wife, son). I got 20ish people in my guild to buy GW2, many of them disliked GW1 a lot and would not have gotten close to an updated version of that game.

GW1 ran its course, so Anet moved on. It is time for the fanbase to move on and except that GW2 is different.

Ualtar.5047:

Eventually, there will be expansions in GW2. For all we know new characters in those expansions will level quickly and obtain good armor quickly like GW1. But right now, you can’t compare Nightfall GW1 with brand new GW2.

Sure I can.

Nightfall took about 300 minutes to hit the stat cap.

Guild Wars 2 takes about 300 hours.

Actually, on second thought, I have not even the foggiest clue what point you are trying to argue. Oh, wait, wasn’t it that Nightfall had a really long period before you hit the stat cap?

Ualtar.5047:

GW1 ran its course, so Anet moved on. It is time for the fanbase to move on and except that GW2 is different.

Well, at least it used to be different.

It is starting to feel more and more like the same old worn out MMO formula of adding better gear every few months.

Ascended/Agony is bad form.

They could have used proper stat scaling for areas outside of FotM (hint Ascended = Exotic) to avoid a lot of problems. Too bad.

Ualtar.5047:

Slyder.9215:

Speaking of horizontal progression, a guildie mentioned this. They really need to add more titles to this game.

Coming from LoTRO where there’s tons of titles, a lot of the times I do extra content (even a lot of levels below me) just to get that title that fits so perfectly with my name – any one word title that starts with S.

There’s a festival event where you stomp shrews from a garden, that gives out “The Shrewd” title. You know I just had to have it lol.

LOTRO has been in existence for about 5.5 years. GW2 3 months.

The argument there being that there’s a lot achievements in game already that they can affix titles to.

Or like they said, give out titles for reaching certain fractal levels.

I sometimes wonder if the people that complain about agony actually reached a higher tier in the dungeon, with the exception of 1 boss (jade maw) EVERY agony attack can be dodged or negated completely (asura and lava fractals). I guess people complain and cry for the sake of complaining and crying /L2P. The only thing they messed up on was not awarding ascended gear in all dungeons so all the babies can still get their ascended without the grind of FoTM which already has been answered that they are working on it. (Point of view of someone with no agony resist)

The title of this thread should have been “Agony is actually rather radiant”…

Ualtar.5047:

LOTRO has been in existence for about 5.5 years. GW2 3 months.

LOTRO launched with its title system (which they stole from COH)

GW2 didn’t.

GW2 would have been better spending development time on actual horizontal progress (like skins and titles and more STUFF in the dang gem store) than in putting together a failed gear-check system that other games tried and have removed.

I definitely think the ArenaNet that designed the Hall of Monuments and the initial idea of Guild Wars 2 isn’t the same ArenaNet as now.

People should stop confusing horizontal progression and cosmetics though. Horizontal progression is new abilities, but with the goal of them being balanced with previous abilities.

They could’ve just done with Agony what they did with Spectral Agony in GW1. You got your current armor infused by seeing specific people in the world to add the protection to your current gear without changing the stats in any way. Instead they decided to add another tier of gear available only one way and some of it through random drops. Both of which they stated they didn’t want to have in the game. Sure, devs have said they are going to change that, but if you haven’t noticed already, they are not in charge of what direction the game goes. It is the cost/benefit analysts in the management that are crunching numbers to see what will make the most money. Why are there still problems with events and such that have existed since beta? There is no monetary incentive to fix them.

arcaneclarity.5283:

I definitely think the ArenaNet that designed the Hall of Monuments and the initial idea of Guild Wars 2 isn’t the same ArenaNet as now.

Pretty sure it is not, Chris Whiteside has only been with Anet since July , 2011. If that says anything.
He did mention something to the effect that it may have been better to introduce ascended gear pre-launch. I have to wonder how many would not have bought the game if that had been the case, and if it would have grabbed some who would not have thought about GW2.

Radiance was tied to gear and stat progression proper. You NEEDED more radiance to get higher stats. If Radiance was a self contained “You need more radiance to get more radiance” loop where all other stats remain constant, it becomes a vertical progression without influencing any other part of the game. Ergo, it is good.

Spectral Agony (Mursaat/jade monsters in proph campaign of GW1 had this), was a case of, at first, needing to do the same long quest six times, where at first entire sections of the map could instant kill you. There was no progression really, you got it, and then that was it, and until you got it, it was a pain.

This can easily generate a self contained loop of progression, with a steady ramp up of difficulty, and of agony resist requirement. Balanced properly, having the agony resist to do one dungeon shows you’ve done the previous dungeon, and your stats outside of it never move.

Having additional stats on infusions, as of now, isn’t a bad thing. Making those stats scale at ALL from what we can get when they’re first released IS. Same with making them difficult for people to get.

…you know, I don’t really get why people state the same point over and over instead of checking if anyone else said anything along the same lines.

TL:DR. Agony resist gating with any other stat gains being gated = bad (radiance). Agony resist requring repeating the same content endlessly = bad (Infusions in GW1.)
Agony resist gating with no other stat gains outside of it earned by progression through content = good.

Odd, because before they had Radiance, LoTRO already did something similar. The “Conquerer of the Watching Stones” (to access East Angmar) effectively gated content also, but it wasn’t tied to stats at all. It was tied to a Deed/Passive Skill from a quest you only had to do once (and not very hard at all at that). Until you completed that quest and got the Passive, you died when you tried to get past the Watching Stones (hence the title) to get to East Angmar. I thought that was a good way to do it.

Now though they don’t gate content per se as much as they gate the gear itself – you can get the gear, but you can’t actually equip it until after you beat a particular boss. Effectively doing the same thing they were trying to do with Radiance – to make players actually play the content.

We’ll see how they move forward with Agony. But honestly, I think the Fractal Level gating is actually the worse issue. That one gates content (and players from each other) even more than Agony.

Eugenics.6953:

ComeAndSee.1356:

Just 1 piece of agony significantly reduces the damage.

That equals 60 hours of your life?

More like 60 seconds on the auction house and the mystic forge.

ComeAndSee.1356:

Eugenics.6953:

ComeAndSee.1356:

Just 1 piece of agony significantly reduces the damage.

That equals 60 hours of your life?

More like 60 seconds on the auction house and the mystic forge.

Plus the gem-gold exchange.

Which is why so many people can’t understand why a stat increase on items was needed when progression could be given in the form of agony resist for specific content.

Even if you like this benefit, agony does go against the spirit of skill beats content. Systems like this are gear beats content and a lot of people dislike that.

And what does agony resistance do to every other mechanic and enemy that doesn’t involve agony?

Nothing. Not a kitten thing. You’re still going to have to be able to deal with all of that if you want to finish higher level fractals.

Shiren.9532:

Which is why so many people can’t understand why a stat increase on items was needed when progression could be given in the form of agony resist for specific content.

Even if you like this benefit, agony does go against the spirit of skill beats content. Systems like this are gear beats content and a lot of people dislike that.

Alas, if skill can beat everything on its own, people don’t tend to feel progression.

Even Dark Souls has a large amount of vertical progression, and skill can beat ANYTHING in that game.

Agony is just a way to test what they can get away with in the PvE world before it’s thrown in and exploited. Look at the similarities between Agony and Confusion. They are incredibly similar, and we only took notice of how devastating Confusion is because of Agony in FOTM. FOTM is just an IN-Game beta testing ground for game mechanics. If you enjoy something in PvE, don’t use it in Fractals.

Ascended gear should still have been of exotic quality just with an added infusion slot.

In my opinnion it’s fustrating and not fun at all even for skilled gamers . Not fun at all and without logic why i should get in a fight at lvl and suffer all that damage when the loot it’s awful i bearly go away with 1 gold =) – repairs you get around 90 silvers + an ascendend item that you will end up using there ….. because you need it to put an agony infusion so you can get an other ascendend item so with that you can use it at what you really want in PvE or WvW .

I don’t think compartmentalizing a game into different activities to suit different psychological tendencies and subgroups is good design. To me, Fractals just should have never went in the game. I don’t think they should have designed it to be so segmented. I don’t think they should have strayed so far from the design of GW1, especially the skill depth and class system. Sorry, but having a dedicated healer and non-homogenized class roles just makes for more interesting combat situations in my opinion. I don’t find zerging to be fun or engaging in any way. Right now, ArenaNet needs to take their game from what it is, a pinata that kids hit repeatedly for rewards, into a game that’s actually inherently fun to play. They keep trying to take the easy way out and design to suit broad, conflicting audiences and i think at the end of the day, it’s going to come back and bite them. PvE players don’t want skills they’re using to be blanket balanced for 3 radically different game modes. Skill splits need to happen and this game needs to come more into line with GW1. The combat depth is just atrocious. Removing monks was a terrible idea. What they’ve done to this game is just a contrived mockery in my opinion.

Bruno Sardine.2907:

But like many things in this game… it’s great on paper and theory, but it’s execution is severely flawed.

Bah. I’m at lvl40, and I have no issues with agony at all…

Yukishiro.8792:

Shanna.4762:

It’s not really brilliant, this was unpopular in LOTRO, so much so that they removed it and I think effectively the same system was tried in other games and removed because it was annoying and unpopular.

The problem is it is TOO brilliant. It exposes the lie at the heart of vertical progression schemes too obviously.

Verti progressional people WANT power creep. They WANT to be able to lord it over the plebs. This is what keeps them going, not being able to do the same dungeon with a higher level of agony so they can farm more agony gear so they can do the same dungeon with higher tuned numbers.

I think this is true.

In which case, GW2 gets it right.

If people really just want to lord it over people with lesser gear in PVP, then they can go elsewhere. Or stay and show that what they really want is skill-based progression for PVE.

Either way, the current system is correct.

Whu i sould go and overlord some bosses and mobs when the rewards are so so so sad only makes ascended harder to make . I am going to find some AG resistence group ill get my ascended and bye . Fractals with agony it’s not a fun place and i don’t like to be forced to use a resistence because this how arenanet want to use my ascended like they want .

Its like cotton pickers getting paid with cotton picking tools.

Hickeroar.9734:

Bruno Sardine.2907:

But like many things in this game… it’s great on paper and theory, but it’s execution is severely flawed.

Bah. I’m at lvl40, and I have no issues with agony at all…

Because your level 40 ._. half of the dungeons aren’t even avaliable to you yet and neither is fractals which is where Agony is and is a level 80 instance please don’t make such useless points.

Kakeru.2873:

Hickeroar.9734:

Bruno Sardine.2907:

But like many things in this game… it’s great on paper and theory, but it’s execution is severely flawed.

Bah. I’m at lvl40, and I have no issues with agony at all…

Because your level 40 ._. half of the dungeons aren’t even avaliable to you yet and neither is fractals which is where Agony is and is a level 80 instance please don’t make such useless points.

Or he meant he is at FotM lvl 40…

In either case whatever point he has is moot because it’s his subjective point of view not based on a factual discussion or serves any purpose in this thread except agonizing people and you’re best off ignoring him.

Hellgaunt.1734:

Kakeru.2873:

Hickeroar.9734:

Bruno Sardine.2907:

But like many things in this game… it’s great on paper and theory, but it’s execution is severely flawed.

Bah. I’m at lvl40, and I have no issues with agony at all…

Because your level 40 ._. half of the dungeons aren’t even avaliable to you yet and neither is fractals which is where Agony is and is a level 80 instance please don’t make such useless points.

Or he meant he is at FotM lvl 40…

In either case whatever point he has is moot because it’s his subjective point of view not based on a factual discussion or serves any purpose in this thread except agonizing people and you’re best off ignoring him.

Forgive me Hellgaunt.

Here’s the problem I’ve always had with agony: If most all of the attacks that do agony are entirely avoidable or able to be negated, what’s the point of agony and the resist? Just have them do a fixed percent of HP so that it’s completely reliant on skill to avoid, minus the safety cushion of the resist. It seems to me that it only exists for the sake of the stat grind and gear-gating people at specific points.

I don’t mind vertical progression. I do mind a continuous gear progression.

If I were implementing Agony, I would have tied Agony Resistance (AR) to a title. Let’s call it Fractal Conqueror Tier x.

With every fractal level beaten, you advance one tier and that increases your AR by 1.

Every 10 levels, new skins can be earned, with a 0.5% chance for a precursor drop at fractal 60+ and a 1% chance at 90+. (that’s before MF)

As far as ascended jewlery, I would have kept them at the same level as exotics, with an additional MF, AR, or Gold earned increase attached.

This would have made Fractals just as desirable without the nasty business of stat increases attached. Vertical progression without the geartreadmill

Agony is simply a gear check, the classic invisible wall to lock people out of content until they have certain gear.
Actually it’s a stronger form of usual gear checking because while you can still complete dungeons in other MMOs with lower gearcheck than required, you cannot complete say frac 18 with a zero agony resistance team, agony will simply down the entire team.

Do I mind it? No, as long as it’s just a fractal thing.
Could difficilty be made so it’s actual difficulty (+dmg +mobs +cc +mechanics) instead of a gear check? Definitely, look at GW1 HM.

But ultimately I believe it’s needed.
Admit it or not the majority out there wants a gear progression and won’t climb fractal levels just for the hell of it.
Overall they combined increased real difficulty with gear checking so they made most people happy.

how does agony make it harder? it’s the same dungeon but you get hit with a condition that hurts until you counter it with agony resistance.

it’s the exact same thing as gear grind. you still need to grind amulets, rings, back slots etc.. and put the agony resistance into them. the only thing stopping you from reaching 80 is agony resistance, not skill.

Yeah, I like agony.

My guess is they have internal numbers that completely contradict what most of the naysayers have to say.

AnemoneMeer.7182:

As the title says, I think Agony itself is rather brilliant. It creates vertical progression endlessly without stat progression.

False! It creates vertical progression completely relying on a single stat.

It overestimates the hardcore players by stating: “you don’t want a tougher challenge. you just want a piece of equipment that makes your player better than the rest”.

Why not basing progression on difficulty only? (and giving people decent cosmetic rewards for clearing the new, harder content?)

It seems like anet doesn’t want to introduce tiers any higher than ascended, which means that gearing will become relatively painless over time. Older players will catch up eventually, and newer players will see exotics as something similar to rares – just one more step along the road.

If vertical progression is solely through infusions (which offer paltry stat increases right now anyway) then so long as they either aren’t acquired via the Mystic Toilet, or don’t require insane amounts of mats, then it’s not really a big deal.

I don’t know if I would go to brilliant on it, but it would have been preferable to vertical progression and a continuous mandatory gear treadmill. But, we didn’t get Agony gated content. We got vertical progression. Anet is now in the process of trying to make lemonade out of it all and I wish them the best. GW2 is one of the best games I’ve played. I would love to see it succeed.

Chaosgyro.6023:

It seems like anet doesn’t want to introduce tiers any higher than ascended, which means that gearing will become relatively painless over time. Older players will catch up eventually, and newer players will see exotics as something similar to rares – just one more step along the road.

And all those people who want to be crafters get kittened. Because you can’t craft Ascended gear.

Also, adding a tier above Ascended will cuase more of a rukus than adding Ascended did, because it will prove those slippery slope arguments right, and prove ANet as a lier.

So no, I don’t think they’ll do that, I do think they’ll add bigger infusions, with even more rediculous grinds needed to make them. Hopefully by that point I’ll have found a games company that actually keeps it’s promises.

Yukishiro.8792:

Shanna.4762:

It’s not really brilliant, this was unpopular in LOTRO, so much so that they removed it and I think effectively the same system was tried in other games and removed because it was annoying and unpopular.

The problem is it is TOO brilliant. It exposes the lie at the heart of vertical progression schemes too obviously.

Verti progressional people WANT power creep. They WANT to be able to lord it over the plebs. This is what keeps them going, not being able to do the same dungeon with a higher level of agony so they can farm more agony gear so they can do the same dungeon with higher tuned numbers.

Precisely.

AnemoneMeer.7182:

As the title says, I think Agony itself is rather brilliant. It creates vertical progression endlessly without stat progression.

As it stands, ArenaNet could add endless dungeons and simply gate them by agony resist required. The hardcore PvE players get their vertical progression though more and more agony resist, which makes them better at these dungeons, while it does literally nothing for WvW, or world PvE.

Provided they handle it right, it’s effectively endless vertical progression, without any form of significant power creep.

As far as I understood it, infusion will have higher tiers as well. The only thing perfect here is how they sold you on vertical progression and you believe it has nothing to do with stats. Infusion are stats even if they run in the background. It’s like a resistance stat and therefore it is stat progression.

The comment that it doesn’t affect WvW is almost true. Of course they added stats to the infusions as well and they also will have improved versions. At this stage, a couple of trinkets with a few stats won’t matter much, but we’ll see if that still holds true a year from now or even sooner….things will be clearer once a full set of ascended gear is available and then there will be another stat progression called a level cap raise. And then it’s level 90 gear in various tiers. Perhaps by then the community will have shouted for mor tiers because after getting a full set of ascended they get bored again.

And you may say, yes but the infusions can keep them busy. Well, I wonder how long these hardcore players are willing to play tetris in a recyclable dungeon again and again. But that doesn’t matter to me I guess…I am actually curious to see how things will go in this respect. Who knows…maybe a lot of people will fall for the gimmick as you seem to be happy with it as well? Surely, you aren’t the only one.

So ok, I don’t like endgame here and got bored of the game entirely. Be interesting to see where this game goes though. We have no real numbers but apparently enough people still like it.

AnemoneMeer.7182:

As the title says, I think Agony itself is rather brilliant. It creates vertical progression endlessly without stat progression.

There is no progression as far as agony is concerned. Higher Agony? Grab some more AR stat, and suddenly you are back exactly where you started.

It’s a holdover from a gw1 gear check, it was only useful against 1 type of enemy. They brought it to gw2 and now it’s only useful for 1 area. See the pattern? Anet likes one-trick-dolyaks.

Instead of implementing it in a useful way that meant something to the game, they added it as a simple gear check with no reasoning for it just to fit into the whole Ascended gear thing.

Please Anet, THINK HARDER, your fans want meaningful additions, not tricks.
Don’t be like Apple, adding useless things just to increase the version number.

all i got to say is

I think agony is perfect for what it does.

Let’s try to clarify what people mean here:

a) do you want a gear grind with stat increases and endless gear inflation?

→ if yes, play a different game
→ if no, go to b)

b) so you don’t want a gear grind, but do you want PVE progression and a sense of achievement?

→ if no, go to c)
→ if yes, go to d)

c) So you don’t want PVE progression. You’re happy chilling, doing dungeons, or maybe your main focus is wvw or s/tpvp. This is what the game is built on. Enjoy and congrats, you are home!

d) So you do want PVE progression but you don’t want stat inflation and gear grind. What do you want for your progression?

→ new skins, vanity items, and the pleasure of doing hard PVE, go to e)
→ gating of content so only pro PVEers have access to the hardest content, go to f)

e) fractals provide unique skins and increasing difficulty as you go up the levels, with increased damage/healing requirements and more mechanics. You also get to look all shiny with those backpieces and weapon skins. Congrats, you are home!

f) Only high level people can complete the highest level fractals. These have greater agony requirements, so they are gated by agony resistance. Agony resistance doesn’t imbalance the rest of the game, but ensures only you pro agony resist holders can complete the content. Congrats, you’re home!