Guild Wars 2

You know I see lots of commotion about RNG on the forums, its understandable. I think Anet does it too much. Sometimes I like RNG, it adds to the rarity of the item obviously. Plus whenever an item, say endless mystery tonic, has a low drop chance, it feels super awesome when you pick it up. As if you won the lottery!!
However as I said its overused and I think a good alternative would be replacing the select items as rewards to missions chains, or achievements. By mission chains I mean the treasure hunts likened to those planned for precursors. With achievements an example would the gauntlets rewarded for the F&F achievement, that was fun. Im sure they’ll do that more with the living story but they should also do it outside the living story.
Anyway what do you guys think? Why do you hate RNG so much? What should it be replaced by?

We can replace them with tokens. Oh wait…

Ya only thing to deal with RNG is tokens but ppl do not want any more tokens so they are kind of “shooting them self in the foot.” I must say the GW2 community is the best at doing this so far i must say its very funny to watch it all unfold. All the problems that come up from things ppl ask for then you have the SAME ppl who complain about it being changed.

The true key to putting a good idea and or complain is to make it not sound like its the worst thing every in gaming because its not and it will never be. But by making it sound like it is the worst thing ever you get an overreaction by the game makers to fix it.
Anet is doing a good job not to comply go with what ppl are asking for (most of the time what ppl are truly asking for would kill the game in a hart beat or any game in fact yes you may think your ideas are great but in truth they are just ideals with nothing behind them they are suggestion but these suggestion are all but pointless because there no info on how to program them in how to make other things deal with it and how to allocate time from one thing to make this new suggestion.)

Simple truth they make a living making games and for the most part the players do not.

ye but tokens are rng drop as well. too much rng all around i guess. what i really dont hope is that the dragon festival weapons are rng themself, not the tokens. this would be a terrible decision. I just don’t think RNG is the solution to every implementation of aesthetic items.

SkylightMoon.1980:

ye but tokens are rng drop as well. too much rng all around i guess. what i really dont hope is that the dragon festival weapons are rng themself, not the tokens. this would be a terrible decision. I just don’t think RNG is the solution to every implementation of aesthetic items.

Well its not only the added tokens are some what of a ranges with the bags you can in dungeons. Only WvW is some what RNG but even that you can get a set number of them in JP. RNG is needed to give skins worth even GW had some RNG there realty no games out there where you “look at what i got” that has no RNG at all.

How about Zero RNG and Tokens and just have everything drop from specific places, oh wait that would be too easy and fun and people might actually farm items and get stuff easier, yeah we can’t have players enjoying themselves…

I miss the old days when loot just dropped and players just farmed…and if i wanted to spend money in the cash shop i could actually buy the said item and get on with it…

Dante.1508:

How about Zero RNG and Tokens and just have everything drop from specific places, oh wait that would be too easy and fun and people might actually farm items and get stuff easier, yeah we can’t have players enjoying themselves…

I miss the old days when loot just dropped and players just farmed…and if i wanted to spend money in the cash shop i could actually buy the said item and get on with it…

The good old days? Point me to a successful MMO where someone killed a mob and was guaranteed a specific drop. RNG is as old as Everquest (maybe even MUDs, never played em though). Or let’s go with your idea. Everyone would have a legendary now, and then everyone would be kittening about no unique skins. Oh generation Y how you amuse me.

The Blind Man.3642:

Dante.1508:

How about Zero RNG and Tokens and just have everything drop from specific places, oh wait that would be too easy and fun and people might actually farm items and get stuff easier, yeah we can’t have players enjoying themselves…

I miss the old days when loot just dropped and players just farmed…and if i wanted to spend money in the cash shop i could actually buy the said item and get on with it…

The good old days? Point me to a successful MMO where someone killed a mob and was guaranteed a specific drop. RNG is as old as Everquest (maybe even MUDs, never played em though). Or let’s go with your idea. Everyone would have a legendary now, and then everyone would be kittening about no unique skins. Oh generation Y how you amuse me.

Guildwars was probably the closest, Rune of Magic had very little RNG and the things dropped nicely, RF Online had very little RNG with Great drop rates.. Tera loot seems a lot less RNG based…Ace online/Air Rivals while it had high RNG later the loot rewards matched the RNG in most ways..

Some single player experiences (yes i know its not an MMO) were Diablo 1+2, Torchlight 1+2, Borderlands 1+2, Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning just off the top of my head

One option is to use tokens, as dungeons have done. Create some content and reward players with new currency for completing it. Players don’t want yet another different type of currency though so this has it’s problems.

Another option, possibly my preferred option for RNG loot linked to stuff like Living Story (such as the case of the Molten Weapons), would be to provide players with a token for completing the story achievement such that they can earn their own skin for completing the content. You can then have weapons drop randomly from the dungeon (or other Living Story chest for future updates) that are tradeable, and therefore can be bought as well as having the RNG chests for people who like to hate themselves.

I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a souvenir of the event.

“But we got Molten Gauntlets”.

Yea. Wow. One sixth of an armour set………………………great.

Either it’s random or it’s not. On one side you get to deal with lady luck. Maybe you get what you’re looking for on your first try, maybe on your 100th, maybe never. On the other side you have dungeon gear style where you can calculate how many times you need to finish something to get what you want. So it’s not random, you know exactly how many tokens you get for each piece of content you finish.
But we already have that, in a way. The Trading Post. You can buy pretty much everything since someone already got what you want, and you can get a basic estimate on how much time and effort you have to put into grinding money. It’s more or less the same thing.

Dante.1508:

Guildwars was probably the closest, Rune of Magic had very little RNG and the things dropped nicely, RF Online had very little RNG with Great drop rates.. Tera loot seems a lot less RNG based…Ace online/Air Rivals while it had high RNG later the loot rewards matched the RNG in most ways..

Some single player experiences (yes i know its not an MMO) were Diablo 1+2, Torchlight 1+2, Borderlands 1+2, Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning just off the top of my head

@RF online
Are you kidding me? The reason why it felt that RF had good drop rates is that armor and weapons break on upgrade. So even if you were able to farm 5 int lvl 60 lances, you’re still a long way off to getting a +7 int lvl 60 lance. Idk about you, but as someone who played that game (even the private servers which had better exp/drop rates), I’d rather stick to gw2’s model.

Dante.1508:

How about Zero RNG and Tokens and just have everything drop from specific places, oh wait that would be too easy and fun and people might actually farm items and get stuff easier, yeah we can’t have players enjoying themselves…

I miss the old days when loot just dropped and players just farmed…and if i wanted to spend money in the cash shop i could actually buy the said item and get on with it…

I guess you don’t see how short sighted your answers are….

What you call fun in having items easily farmable is nothing more than a quick route to boredom, everyone looking the same all too quickly and those items becoming common and worthless – then the game withers as players loose interest … only a lot faster than they do when RNG Gods don’t shine on them as often.
Sure RNG can be painful… ive not had an exotic drop in the forge for at least 4 weeks now, but all they have to do is routinely modify the drop percentages, that way the game keeps some sort of “feel good factor” and the “aww man, crap all again” emotions.

The old days of loot drops did not account for F2P business models.. how else do you think ANET/NC Soft makes money in order to keep the game going…. RNG is there for a reason, as are all the other aspects like currency changes, and the special snowflake items.
If they were to replace loot drops from RNG to guaranteed drops, then expect a large change to DR.. for the worse!

Bloodstealer.5978:

Dante.1508:

How about Zero RNG and Tokens and just have everything drop from specific places, oh wait that would be too easy and fun and people might actually farm items and get stuff easier, yeah we can’t have players enjoying themselves…

I miss the old days when loot just dropped and players just farmed…and if i wanted to spend money in the cash shop i could actually buy the said item and get on with it…

I guess you don’t see how short sighted your answers are….

What you call fun in having items easily farmable is nothing more than a quick route to boredom, everyone looking the same all too quickly and those items becoming common and worthless – then the game withers as players loose interest … only a lot faster than they do when RNG Gods don’t shine on them as often.
Sure RNG can be painful… ive not had an exotic drop in the forge for at least 4 weeks now, but all they have to do is routinely modify the drop percentages, that way the game keeps some sort of “feel good factor” and the “aww man, crap all again” emotions.

The old days of loot drops did not account for F2P business models.. how else do you think ANET/NC Soft makes money in order to keep the game going…. RNG is there for a reason, as are all the other aspects like currency changes, and the special snowflake items.
If they were to replace loot drops from RNG to guaranteed drops, then expect a large change to DR.. for the worse!

I certainly understand anet’s reason for continued RNG + Gemstore. Its really terrible tho after this amount of time. Its just tiring. I mean basically, because the gemstore is the only way anet can make money, they are greatly lacking in what could be awesome content(missions, treasure hunts). Imagine if there was a chain of some 5 missions added in retribution. The chain became increasingly difficult, and actually took skill and time, unlike rox&braham missions. At the end we each get a token for the fused weapon vendor. That would be great!!! But we cant have that because anet has to make money somehow and therefore uses the ole sneaky bl key. Im totally understanding, just not happy at all with this issue not being addressed at all.

RPGs especially MMORPGS can’t exist without RNG it already starts with your weapons DMG – DMG+30 or 15% Critchance etc.

Personally I think the problem isn’t RNG but the way RNG is implemented. You feel no progression here in GW2.

example: the item you want (e.g. jetpack) doesn’t drop. You have no idea how long it would take to get the item. No arc of suspense here.
possible alternative: you find random spawning pieces of that item (e.g pieces of the jetpack). Now you see the progression: I have found 6/12 pieces of this item. I can do it!! Only 6 pieces left.

It’s still RNG, but now you have an idea how long it would take you. You get exited with each piece you find.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Personally I think the problem isn’t RNG but the way RNG is implemented. You feel no progression here in GW2.

example: the item you want (e.g. jetpack) doesn’t drop. You have no idea how long it would take to get the item. No arc of suspense here.
possible alternative: you find random spawning pieces of that item (e.g pieces of the jetpack). Now you see the progression: I have found 6/12 pieces of this item. I can do it!! Only 6 pieces left.

It’s still RNG, but now you have an idea how long it would take you. You get exited with each piece you find.

Yeah, and they should involve crafting into that more.

Dante.1508:

How about Zero RNG and Tokens and just have everything drop from specific places, oh wait that would be too easy and fun and people might actually farm items and get stuff easier, yeah we can’t have players enjoying themselves…

I miss the old days when loot just dropped and players just farmed…and if i wanted to spend money in the cash shop i could actually buy the said item and get on with it…

Strangely enough, most people aren’t having fun when they have everything they want. I know it defies logic, but it’s pretty easily demonstrated. It’s when people have everything they want that they usually want more.

There are rarely people who want stuff, get it and never want anything else, but they’re the exception to the rule. Believe it or not I first learned about this while watching the original Star Trek when Spock said (in the episode Amok time): Ston, you may have her. After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical…but it is often true.

This bit of human analysis really is true. Give something everything they want in a game and they’ve won. Then they walk away. The way to keep people playing games is to give them something to work towards.

So while you personally might have fun getting everything from drops in short order, many many others would end up leaving the game. And an MMO with no people in it isn’t much fun…at least, it wouldn’t be fun for me.

RNG Now
Currently, the RNG is completely random which sounds fair at first. After all, everybody has the same 1:50 chance, if a chest is set to 1:50.

RNG Problem:
However, the nature of randomness is such, that you real chance of getting something from this 1:50 chest by your 50th attempt is merely 66%. Sorry, this is just how the math works. In total, the chance of all users might add up to 1:50, but individually, the chance is never 1:50. To compound the problem, it is statistically more likely to end up below the average and take more attempts than 50, than to end up on the lucky side. This is due to the fact of luck having a limit of 1:1, i.e. every time, while bad luck having no upper limit and you can go as far as 1:infinity for a successful event. These extremes have to balance themselves out, they do so by tossing more players on the above 1:50 side of things. As a result, the RNG is an anger creation machine the second you think you know the drop rate. Because proving it works, also proves how most players never reach that 1:50 to compensate for a lucky few.

RNG Solution
Simple, you got to have better control over the random part. In real life, this is done by replacing dice rolls with tickets. You write every possible dice roll on a piece of paper and put it in a fish bowl. Instead of rolling dice, you pull a ticket. The more often you draw, the larger the chance to get it. If you draw it, the bowl gets a set of tickets thrown in, while the one which were not drawn last time remain inside. The downside of this system is that it requires more bytes of information to be stored per player. At least two bits per chest you want to track.

Apart from that, the computerized system does exactly what it is supposed to. Instead of rolling 1:50 every time, you first roll 1d50 (1 Dice – 50 Sides), then 1d49, then 1d48, until you hit gold. If you strike it at 1d18, you add 50 and the next roll is for 1d68. GW1 could do that all day, there was a /roll command with player control over the number of sides the die had.

You have to tinker with this system a bit to give you exactly what you imagined. A totally random 1:50 chance should not be translated to dynamic dice rolls starting at 1d50. You should aim a bit higher probably. You learn that, once you use the system a bit, or crunch the numbers, plots some graphs about the average distribution.

But you can precisely control the maximum length of a dry period between two dice rolls being successful. You will no longer hear from players complaining about having opened 200 chests and having gotten nothing at chests with 1:50 chances. All while controlling the drop rate at the same time. You hard cap the amount of bad luck players can have. You can motivate them further by telling them which chances are glowing hot due to being less lucky in the past (i.e. when a 1:100 chest has ticked down to a 1:10 chance).

A modified number generator to motivate, instead a random number generator causing distress.

Hell, I would even find crafting a legendary more appealing if they would have an interface where you could put in all your stuff you need for it… like the interface for the black moa in GW1.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071121203911/gw/images/0/0f/Full_incubator.jpg

this for a legendary and I would see my progression, work it of one by one instead of having it in the bank somewhere and never knowing how far I am

FourthVariety.5463:

-snip-

why not simply reduce the drop rate from 1:50 to 1:35?

penatbater.4710:

Dante.1508:

Guildwars was probably the closest, Rune of Magic had very little RNG and the things dropped nicely, RF Online had very little RNG with Great drop rates.. Tera loot seems a lot less RNG based…Ace online/Air Rivals while it had high RNG later the loot rewards matched the RNG in most ways..

Some single player experiences (yes i know its not an MMO) were Diablo 1+2, Torchlight 1+2, Borderlands 1+2, Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning just off the top of my head

@RF online
Are you kidding me? The reason why it felt that RF had good drop rates is that armor and weapons break on upgrade. So even if you were able to farm 5 int lvl 60 lances, you’re still a long way off to getting a +7 int lvl 60 lance. Idk about you, but as someone who played that game (even the private servers which had better exp/drop rates), I’d rather stick to gw2’s model.

At least a +7 lance was possible pretty rare and unneeded but possible here….yeah good luck getting those Lodestone drops anytime soon…

Dante.1508:

Dante.1508:

How about Zero RNG and Tokens and just have everything drop from specific places, oh wait that would be too easy and fun and people might actually farm items and get stuff easier, yeah we can’t have players enjoying themselves…

I miss the old days when loot just dropped and players just farmed…and if i wanted to spend money in the cash shop i could actually buy the said item and get on with it…

I guess you don’t see how short sighted your answers are….

What you call fun in having items easily farmable is nothing more than a quick route to boredom, everyone looking the same all too quickly and those items becoming common and worthless – then the game withers as players loose interest … only a lot faster than they do when RNG Gods don’t shine on them as often.
Sure RNG can be painful… ive not had an exotic drop in the forge for at least 4 weeks now, but all they have to do is routinely modify the drop percentages, that way the game keeps some sort of “feel good factor” and the “aww man, crap all again” emotions.

The old days of loot drops did not account for F2P business models.. how else do you think ANET/NC Soft makes money in order to keep the game going…. RNG is there for a reason, as are all the other aspects like currency changes, and the special snowflake items.
If they were to replace loot drops from RNG to guaranteed drops, then expect a large change to DR.. for the worse!

Its only shortsighted if gear is your final goal, mine it wasn’t i’d much prefer to gear up and then focus on wvw or pvp or guild stuff than chase gear for months in which i get bored chasing it and move on…

Or better still not chase gear at all have all on merchants and play with hundreds of builds and skill captures, follow the story multiple times and do guild events etc.. like in Guildwars 1.. here its too expensive to switch builds, very little reason too, the story was hard enough to stomach the first time, and guild events are so gated they aren’t worth bothering with…

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

FourthVariety.5463:

-snip-

why not simply reduce the drop rate from 1:50 to 1:35?

Because the source of the anger towards the RNG does no lie within the chance of success. The source of the anger is the intrinsic ability of an RNG to take a 1:50 chance and turn it into a 1:200 reality.

A modified number generator aims not at reducing the 1:50 chance to 1:35. It very efficiently eliminates an RNG’s ability to create “bad beats”. Not only can you design the average drop rate that way, but also control the maximum bad streak a player can get.

Just imagine, you never had a single thread, single post in this forum, where one player complains about his bad luck. Imagine how bad these players feel when game designers then tell them “oh, it is 1:50 for everyone, you just have bad luck”. The chance of bad luck occurring is unacceptable game design. Period.

MMOs typically utilize RNG because it’s a nice, easy way to distribute rewards. In the case of subscription-based games lower % chances on things encourages more time spent playing which translates to more money being given to the company via subscription. In the case of subscription-free games with cash shops, it translates into more opportunities for the player to consider spending money in that shop to get what they want through means outside of RNG (like the Trade Post).

There’s nothing actually wrong with it as a mechanic either, even with extreme, .001% rates. The problem is (if this is still a thing- I’ve been away from the forums and announcements for some time) diminishing returns on this mechanic. Whether it diminishes the number of items able to drop or the chance of seeing specific subsets of items drop, it’s a punishment that discourages the main incentive to use it as a mechanic in the first place. If the sentiment behind it was to encourage people to not spend so many consecutive hours farming that’s nice, but it was a poor way to implement that sentiment.

FourthVariety.5463:

RNG Now
Currently, the RNG is completely random which sounds fair at first. After all, everybody has the same 1:50 chance, if a chest is set to 1:50.

RNG Problem:
However, the nature of randomness is such, that you real chance of getting something from this 1:50 chest by your 50th attempt is merely 66%. Sorry, this is just how the math works. In total, the chance of all users might add up to 1:50, but individually, the chance is never 1:50. To compound the problem, it is statistically more likely to end up below the average and take more attempts than 50, than to end up on the lucky side. This is due to the fact of luck having a limit of 1:1, i.e. every time, while bad luck having no upper limit and you can go as far as 1:infinity for a successful event. These extremes have to balance themselves out, they do so by tossing more players on the above 1:50 side of things. As a result, the RNG is an anger creation machine the second you think you know the drop rate. Because proving it works, also proves how most players never reach that 1:50 to compensate for a lucky few.

This is misleading. First and foremost: referring to it as 1 in 50 or 1:50 instead of 2%. 1 in 50 implies a system more akin to your solution. 2% is the accurate way to say it when talking about probability.

Second, it is not that you have a 66% chance of getting the specific something from the 2% chance before your 51st try, it’s that you have a 66% chance to Have Got it before then. The wording actually matters a bit, sorry to be pedantic.

Third, the chance is ALWAYS 2% individually, exactly because even in a huge attempt sample of say… millions, each one of those millions was an individual attempt, each individual one against the 2% chance. It is always a 2% chance. I can’t even wrap my head around why you would say it isn’t, especially if you know how probability works. It is always a 2% chance, every time it is attempted by any number of players or any number of times by the same player.

Thirdly, statistically the average is the average because it is the average. You are just as likely to end up on either side of it. Let’s say to the left is above average (within 50 attempts against a 2% chance) and to the right is below average (more attempts than 50). To the right there is infinitely more space to find yourself, but that does not mean it is more likely to end up there. The extremes of luck on the first try versus bad luck reaching into infinity balance out in a large enough sample size indicating a huge cluster of people taking X number of attempts at or very near 50 with some clustered in the 1-49 range and a relatively similar number to that spread out beyond 50, leading to the average, which in this example is 50 attempts. This is where that 66% probability to have got it within 50 attempts comes in. Whether super lucky or just average, the total number of people that take anywhere from 1 attempt to 50 attempts is about 66% of the sample. Meaning most people have average or above average luck.

Lastly, most players do reach that average, either by luckily not needing many attempts or by hitting the average or very close to it (48-52 attempts, let’s say). As explained, 50 would not be the average number of attempts if most players required an undefined number more than that. The average would move above 50 attempts meaning the chance is in fact not 2% but something lower.

I really wish I could show all this with graphs or illustrations but hopefully the math-savvy in the people reading this can follow.

(continued…)

(sorry for the double-post)

RNG Solution
A modified number generator to motivate, instead a random number generator causing distress.

See, this is a system that operates on 1 in 50 chance. You attempt it once, there are now 49 chances left. It would be just as frustrating because it is no longer an exercise in working for what you want, but an exercise in tedium because it becomes a certainty that you will get what you want rather than a probable (and desirable) conclusion. It would raise irritation and frustration that you have to repeat attempts at all because in the end you are absolutely, 100% certain to get it. It removes any reason at all for the chance to be below 100% on the first try, because you are 100% certain to get it anyway. It would work in free games with no cash shops or subscription-based games provided that most things of value would take more than 50 attempts, or that your number of attempts within a given period of time would be limited. But in a game with a convenience cash shop like GW2’s it would not work because it removes incentive to ever make use of that cash shop. To get it to work you would have to take away the ability to trade gold for gems, or add content purchased exclusively through real money instead of gems, and either of those would drastically change the dynamic of the game’s economy.

Anyway, for what it’s worth. Bad luck is not unacceptable game design. Games have historically involved luck quite a bit. Like, excessively. If it is unacceptable to you that you specifically have to face down the chance that you might have bad luck, that only means you do not accept it as a viable way to spend your time. A great many of us don’t find it unacceptable or we simply wouldn’t participate in it.

Dante.1508:

penatbater.4710:

Dante.1508:

Guildwars was probably the closest, Rune of Magic had very little RNG and the things dropped nicely, RF Online had very little RNG with Great drop rates.. Tera loot seems a lot less RNG based…Ace online/Air Rivals while it had high RNG later the loot rewards matched the RNG in most ways..

Some single player experiences (yes i know its not an MMO) were Diablo 1+2, Torchlight 1+2, Borderlands 1+2, Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning just off the top of my head

@RF online
Are you kidding me? The reason why it felt that RF had good drop rates is that armor and weapons break on upgrade. So even if you were able to farm 5 int lvl 60 lances, you’re still a long way off to getting a +7 int lvl 60 lance. Idk about you, but as someone who played that game (even the private servers which had better exp/drop rates), I’d rather stick to gw2’s model.

At least a +7 lance was possible pretty rare and unneeded but possible here….yeah good luck getting those Lodestone drops anytime soon…

The difference is a +7 is vastly superior to a +6. Here, a legendary/mjolnir/volcanus/infinite light is in no way stronger than your average pearl greatsword.

Archmortal.1027:

snip

Loot is a motivational gameplay dimension. It servers to compel us playing more of the game.

The perception of having bad luck has repeatedly led to very angry comments on this forum. Players not only threaten to quit, they portray the game in such a light that it actively contributes to other players quitting.

Would you release a game with graphics being a turnoff?
Would you release a game with sound driving players away?
Why would you allow an RNG to do that?

We know the problem with the RNG. It is not the people who get lucky within the first five chests. The problem is when players get unlucky for 400 chests, when they “should have” gotten the drop after a mere 100 “on average”. Equal opportunity dice rolls, lead to unequal distribution, it is the nature of things.

We think we give every player the same chance, but random events will then put the players into different groups. During SAB, I was in a lucky group getting one gold skin for every 30 chests. Other players were in the unlucky group, opening almost as many chests as I, turning up empty. This is a problem and to be treated as such. I can live with getting fewer drops, the other player probably cannot live just as well with getting no drops.

I know very well that the aggregate chance derived from the sum of all fractions from 1-x is far higher than running one fraction X times. But first things first.

Design goal 1:
Eliminate the chance of players getting drop luck so bad they explode on the forums. My proposed method does that just nicely.

Design goal 2:
Have the system produce an average drop rate across all players and all dice rolls. A rate which conforms to the intended average drop rate decided by the designer. My proposed system can deliver on that as well.

Sure, it is not as easy as converting n number of rolls of a 1d50 into n number of rolls of a 1d(50-n). But is is still a very predictable art that will stand the test of the most scrupulous math.

FourthVariety.5463

Currently, the RNG is completely random
————————————

How do we know this is true?

While its been many years since I had to develop random number generators the ones I needed to developed frequently were biased to produce results in order to achieve certain goals such as evaluate a design scenario.

It was also my experience that a “completely” RNG implementation was not possible. There was always a bell curve to some extent, some were just much flatter then others. However; designs ideas have surely advanced in the last 30 years.

I would be more inclined to believe that there are numerous RNGs employed in the game and each RNG is designed to yield specific bounded results which we as players may or may not like.

In summary when someone tells me that is it randomly generated, they have told me very little other than the result was not predetermined.

I guess those items aren’t thought for everyone… hence the low rng. Anet doesn’t want every 4th player to have such items. Still people are crazy and run the F&F dungeon continuously to force the drop… and get mad when there is no drop.

it shouldn’t be a grind, it should simply be luck

No matter what you do, people will complain.

Replace rng with tokens? People complain about having too many currencies
Replace multiple currencies with one currency? People complain how acquiring new content becomes easy

Dante.1508:

penatbater.4710:

Dante.1508:

Guildwars was probably the closest, Rune of Magic had very little RNG and the things dropped nicely, RF Online had very little RNG with Great drop rates.. Tera loot seems a lot less RNG based…Ace online/Air Rivals while it had high RNG later the loot rewards matched the RNG in most ways..

Some single player experiences (yes i know its not an MMO) were Diablo 1+2, Torchlight 1+2, Borderlands 1+2, Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning just off the top of my head

@RF online
Are you kidding me? The reason why it felt that RF had good drop rates is that armor and weapons break on upgrade. So even if you were able to farm 5 int lvl 60 lances, you’re still a long way off to getting a +7 int lvl 60 lance. Idk about you, but as someone who played that game (even the private servers which had better exp/drop rates), I’d rather stick to gw2’s model.

At least a +7 lance was possible pretty rare and unneeded but possible here….yeah good luck getting those Lodestone drops anytime soon…

Dante.1508:

Dante.1508:

How about Zero RNG and Tokens and just have everything drop from specific places, oh wait that would be too easy and fun and people might actually farm items and get stuff easier, yeah we can’t have players enjoying themselves…

I miss the old days when loot just dropped and players just farmed…and if i wanted to spend money in the cash shop i could actually buy the said item and get on with it…

I guess you don’t see how short sighted your answers are….

What you call fun in having items easily farmable is nothing more than a quick route to boredom, everyone looking the same all too quickly and those items becoming common and worthless – then the game withers as players loose interest … only a lot faster than they do when RNG Gods don’t shine on them as often.
Sure RNG can be painful… ive not had an exotic drop in the forge for at least 4 weeks now, but all they have to do is routinely modify the drop percentages, that way the game keeps some sort of “feel good factor” and the “aww man, crap all again” emotions.

The old days of loot drops did not account for F2P business models.. how else do you think ANET/NC Soft makes money in order to keep the game going…. RNG is there for a reason, as are all the other aspects like currency changes, and the special snowflake items.
If they were to replace loot drops from RNG to guaranteed drops, then expect a large change to DR.. for the worse!

Its only shortsighted if gear is your final goal, mine it wasn’t i’d much prefer to gear up and then focus on wvw or pvp or guild stuff than chase gear for months in which i get bored chasing it and move on…

Or better still not chase gear at all have all on merchants and play with hundreds of builds and skill captures, follow the story multiple times and do guild events etc.. like in Guildwars 1.. here its too expensive to switch builds, very little reason too, the story was hard enough to stomach the first time, and guild events are so gated they aren’t worth bothering with…

Of course its your gear.. you wanna gear up to go do WvW so you consider yourself competitive…. otherwise stick on a set of blues and go run it.. now stop with the silly answers please your smoke screen isn’t working, you want it all without the need to put in the time and effort like the rest of us. No one forces you to farm and grind over and over for the special snowflake but you obviously feel the need to but have a hard time rolling with the punches that RNG gives you sometimes.

As for the rest of your post.. you have jumped from RNG whining to something completely off at a tangent.

Theoldman.6483:

FourthVariety.5463

Currently, the RNG is completely random
————————————

How do we know this is true?

I tracked over 500 fractal chests, over 300 SAB chests, over 5000 conversions (of one and the same item!) in the mystic forge. I also tracked threads in which players investigate drop rates, both here and on the wiki. I also keep in touch with other player doing similar things, or players claiming to have peculiar streak of luck/bad luck.

RNG and MNG (modified number generator) create different patterns relating to target drop rate and maximum number of futile attempts. Being a computer game, ArenaNet seems to be using the PRNG method with no modifier applied.

I can say with very high confidence that the GW2 PRNG is, in fact, a totally random unmodified dice roll. However, the ArenaNet PRNG seems not to be totally without flaws because of some confirmed claims of players having what amount to a 1:[3*10^23] chance for success.

Enhancing the RNGs of games to tie players to games is one of the severely underdeveloped aspects of games; compared to audio-visuals. Leading the charge currently is Blizzard who is using D3 for field testing an entirely new form of loot drops which are based on the current equip to the player, instead of a fixed loot table. Going forward ArenaNet will have to compete not just in the fields of video, audio and gameplay, but also in perceived luckiness of players. Enjoy your virtual drug addiction.

I am an Engineer, half my bloody abilities rely on RNG. You get to sympathy from me.

Zaviel.1245:

I am an Engineer, half my bloody abilities rely on RNG. You get to sympathy from me.

Kitten please! I main a mesmer.

Crossplay.2067:

Zaviel.1245:

I am an Engineer, half my bloody abilities rely on RNG. You get to sympathy from me.

Kitten please! I main a mesmer.

what’s the RNG on mesmer? o.o staff? chaos armor/storm?

FourthVariety.5463:

Archmortal.1027:

snip

snip

Regardless of your group being lucky and another group being unlucky due to randomness, assuming all other things were equal the chance was the same for each individual in both groups. The opportunity was completely equal. All players involved got the same chances. We don’t “think” they got the same chance. They flat out did. I don’t see this as a problem. If there are flaws at work that are actively decreasing the chance of some players and it is prevalent through all their activities (and it’s not just a quirk of very bad luck while they repeat one specific task) that’s a different issue that should be addressed separately as that is a huge problem.

I like the RNG mechanic when working as intended, though. I’m not being driven off by it, and it adds to how much I enjoy the game. Your proposed system would reduce my enjoyment and could well convince me to stop playing as much as it would increase yours and encourage you to continue. “Random” loot systems that are guaranteed to spit out what I want after a specific number of attempts where the number is greater than 1 are a waste of my time.

Going forward ArenaNet will have to compete not just in the fields of video, audio and gameplay, but also in perceived luckiness of players. Enjoy your virtual drug addiction.

This however, is silly. And a little uncalled for. Are you getting snippy with that closing comment or am I completely missing your intent in saying it? Sounds snippy. Either way, “perceived luckiness of players” is never going to be a selling point because how often you seem to get lucky drops is never going to carry a game. People don’t play WoW (and I don’t see the people who think GW2’s RNG is a problem moving over to it) because getting Epic Lute happens more often, they play it because it’s their preferred game of its type. Likewise, people who like Dark Souls more than Dragon’s Dogma don’t only enjoy Dark Souls more after they accumulate 10 Humanity and equip the Covetous Gold Serpent Ring (both of which together maximize item drop rates). They enjoy it more because they prefer the game.

On D3: it’s certainly a lovely permutation of the standard RNG so many games use and I’d love to see it used elsewhere. I’m still not certain to get anything I want so I have to continue putting in effort and at the same time it isn’t some arbitrary thing that hands it to me after I repeat something a certain number of times instead of the first time.

Dante.1508:

The Blind Man.3642:

Dante.1508:

How about Zero RNG and Tokens and just have everything drop from specific places, oh wait that would be too easy and fun and people might actually farm items and get stuff easier, yeah we can’t have players enjoying themselves…

I miss the old days when loot just dropped and players just farmed…and if i wanted to spend money in the cash shop i could actually buy the said item and get on with it…

The good old days? Point me to a successful MMO where someone killed a mob and was guaranteed a specific drop. RNG is as old as Everquest (maybe even MUDs, never played em though). Or let’s go with your idea. Everyone would have a legendary now, and then everyone would be kittening about no unique skins. Oh generation Y how you amuse me.

Guildwars was probably the closest, Rune of Magic had very little RNG and the things dropped nicely, RF Online had very little RNG with Great drop rates.. Tera loot seems a lot less RNG based…Ace online/Air Rivals while it had high RNG later the loot rewards matched the RNG in most ways..

Some single player experiences (yes i know its not an MMO) were Diablo 1+2, Torchlight 1+2, Borderlands 1+2, Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning just off the top of my head

If Guild Wars was ‘the closest’ then your argument is even more invalid than I thought. Have you ever tried farming for the items required to get Gifts of the Traveler every week? I remember one week it took me approx. 40 hours just to get all 15 of the items. And don’t get me started on Greens. Played the game for a solid 1500+ hours and only had one green drop.

This games only real RNG is skins, want them work for them. Everything else is earned with time, no RNG involved.

Assume we would both play the game until we opened another 2000 dungeons chests.
Assume the precursor drop rate was 1:750
Assume that we would have it all play out and come to the conclusion of me getting five precursors and you none after 2000 dungeon runs.

This is what the PRNG system looks to a developer. He has a working knowledge of the result pool. He has a determined chance. However, an element of randomness produces two results which are two totally reasonable results to have within that system.

The chance for you to end up empty handed in this example is 6.9%.
The chance for me getting five precursors is also 6.9%
(sure, took me some tinkering, but you get the point, I hope)

So while the cost of opportunity is the same for both of us, the result can make a difference which nobody would describe as fair.

This is because the PRNG system is absolute fair on paper, but random events can be a total tyrant with no self-correcting influences.

In the system I proposed, the chance is still 1:750. But after 2000 chests, we would not be at 0-5 (or any other combination) but either at 3-2 or 2-3; no other distribution possible. A strong regulatory valve attempting to reward similar effort with similar results.

We still have the very small chances for loot, while achieving a far superior distribution by having the system self-correct itself.

I think people get too narrowly focused on RNG in these discussions. As some have pointed out, RNG is commonly used in games, and in most cases successfully. Google “loot system”; it’s a very illuminating study for gamers. Pure RNG is seldom used for anything but trash loot. More often a loot system would be more properly called a rules-based system that often uses RNG to distribute loot. The point here being that it can be tuned to affect the perceived value of reward. It can be a wasteland or the big rock candy mountain.

Regardless of the nature of the loot system, there are important underlying goals. Loot is a reward for play. It’s also essential to maintain and evolve our characters. All games offer intrinsic rewards in terms of the gameplay itself. In the MMO genre, and anything close to it (arpg, etc.), there is loot. The key to a successful loot system is that players experience a sense of reward in terms of loot from playing the game. I think that all the complaints about RNG are simply complaints about a loot system that is not currently tuned to provide players with the commonly expected level of reward.

And, please, no psycho-babble about these kids today . The problem is much simpler than that and doesn’t require an advanced degree. We play games to have fun. Reward is fun. We don’t want loot to rain from the sky and we don’t want a loot wasteland. We want to enjoy the reward of the game’s play and we want to experience a sense of reward in terms of found loot.

I agree with FourthVariety a mng would be a lot nicer than what we have now.

If an MMO ever comes out with its catch being the specific lack of any RNG by design, it would be pretty darn popular.

Just putting that out there…

I really hope they do something to improve the Rng is this game, GW2 is the most unrewarding game for my time that I have ever played. Sorry to sound so bitter but I am a firm believer that I have bought a “bad” account at pre-launch. No matter what aspect of the game I play its all junk loot all the time. Gets old fast doing all the content and receiving nothing for my efforts.