Guild Wars 2

Forgive my disingenuous attempt at belittling all of the other complaints or “criticisms”, people have previously noted, with the title of this post. I simply find it rather humorous that no one has yet to mention a more underlining point behind everyone’s fascination with rewards.

ArenaNet’s goal for this game was to take the very concept of an MMO and strengthen the values derived thereof. This is why we have so much emphasis on teamwork; having to deal with group efforts instead of individual skill to determine the outcome of any event that isn’t instanced. The entire game was made with the notion of aggrandizing community play over solitary behavior.

That wonderful idea has become overwhelmed by egomania. No one seems to care anymore about the rest of the game. The mass attitude being displayed as of late is rage over the supposed lack of prize for time given. People just want rewards, they want them quick and they want to feel encumbered by such.

It feels as if the players have more concern for their own prominence in the game instead of obtaining enjoyment from a collaboration.

“I don’t want achievement rewards to include daily and monthly points because too many other people are going to have excessive amounts before me.”

“The risk & reward system is not adequate to what’s necessary for me to immediately display my dedication over other players.”

“The living story is wasted time. You should be focusing on giving us more shiny stuff to continue our charade of ego stroking.”

Now it’s happening. ArenaNet is partially listening and your rewards are growing.

So let me ask. Are you sure this is what you want?

Err…are you really asking if we’re sure if we want more stuff to work towards? Because the answer is a definite yes.

I get what you’re saying about the complaints though. I find it extremely odd people are complaining about the achievement rewards already when we don’t even know exactly how it works yet. They can’t even put that kitten off for 1 week to see how it’s gonna go.

The problem isn’t the game, it’s the players.

fellyn.5083:

Err…are you really asking if we’re sure if we want more stuff to work towards?

The context of that question can swing several ways. Working towards “more stuff” could easily imply the idea of someone having fun from the challenge of the game. That alone has been the very definition of a great game. Guild Wars 2 is clearly failing because we see more complaints about rewards than we do for fixing replay value.

Blackmoon.6837:

No one seems to care anymore about the rest of the game. The mass attitude being displayed as of late is rage over the supposed lack of prize for time given. People just want rewards, they want them quick and they want to feel encumbered by such.

It feels as if the players have more concern for their own prominence in the game instead of obtaining enjoyment from a collaboration.

“I don’t want achievement rewards to include daily and monthly points because too many other people are going to have excessive amounts before me.”

“The risk & reward system is not adequate to what’s necessary for me to immediately display my dedication over other players.”

“The living story is wasted time. You should be focusing on giving us more shiny stuff to continue our charade of ego stroking.”

Again, it is the community that is driving this way of how things work, and that’s just how it is in any game. It’s sad that the devs are listening to the forums as much as they are because I’d rather they just read the forums for the major points and left people to whine as they do (we see a lot of flopping in the living story, not flopping as in “OH THIS FAILED” but as in “oh this is what the community didn’t like last time, let’s change it to this way” —> “oh they didn’t like it, let’s go back to the way before because the community likes it more that way” instead of realizing that the community is just complaining for the sake of complaining).

As for not getting rewards or enjoyment. I’m glad to say that over the course of this year, I have managed to collect to my hearts desire, slowly but surely. What most players don’t realize is that collecting isn’t meant to be something done in a day, it’s supposed to be something done over time.

All the stuff that happens below this is just me bragging while proving my point. None of it is superbly expensive, but it is a collection that has occurred over this games duration thus far.

fellyn.5083:

Err…are you really asking if we’re sure if we want more stuff to work towards? Because the answer is a definite yes.

If by “work” you mean “doing easy and mindless activities that a bot could do better than a human being, pretty much like a Skinner rat pushing its small lever over and over”, aka grinding and farming… The answer is “no, thank you”.

Good games are about having fun, not about farming, grinding or even about receiving some kind of reward. Unfortunatelly, MMORPGs are not good games, and they have their small legion of addicts who don’t understand what a good game actually is.

Erasculio.2914:

fellyn.5083:

Err…are you really asking if we’re sure if we want more stuff to work towards? Because the answer is a definite yes.

If by “work” you mean “doing easy and mindless activities that a bot could do better than a human being, pretty much like a Skinner rat pushing its small lever over and over”, aka grinding and farming… The answer is “no, thank you”.

Good games are about having fun, not about farming, grinding or even about receiving some kind of reward. Unfortunatelly, MMORPGs are not good games, and they have their small legion of addicts who don’t understand what a good game actually is.

Because I don’t know you and you don’t know me I’ll just say that I hate the grinding as much as anyone. I want fun game mechanics that are challenging to complete and don’t revolve around bosses with millions of hp and cheap 1 shot mechanics that artificially inflate difficulty. The aetherblade retreat is a good start to that but it was still a little over tuned in certain parts (the laser fences coupled with golems that pull you around was pretty cheap).

So I think we’re on the same page as far as that goes. But I still want to be rewarded for my efforts.

Lol people are disapproving of the new rewards before we even know just what these rewards are? Yeah, they gave us a basic description but no more. Seriously, guys?

Also, is there any evidence that this was a direct response to the community? Honestly, I highly doubt it. Developers don’t plan a massive game like GW2 without a good, solid plan for the future. My guess is that they have had this in mind for plenty of time now. They may have even hoped to add these rewards from day one.

Let’s all take a chill pill, people! Read my sig…

MightyMicah.7451:

Lol people are disapproving of the new rewards before we even know just what these rewards are? Yeah, they gave us a basic description but no more. Seriously, guys?

Also, is there any evidence that this was a direct response to the community? Honestly, I highly doubt it. Developers don’t plan a massive game like GW2 without a good, solid plan for the future. My guess is that they have had this in mind for plenty of time now. They may have even hoped to add these rewards from day one.

Let’s all take a chill pill, people! Read my sig…

I’m pretty sure this achievement system update has been in the works since they first started tweaking achievements. Which was what..February? March?

fellyn.5083:

MightyMicah.7451:

Lol people are disapproving of the new rewards before we even know just what these rewards are? Yeah, they gave us a basic description but no more. Seriously, guys?

Also, is there any evidence that this was a direct response to the community? Honestly, I highly doubt it. Developers don’t plan a massive game like GW2 without a good, solid plan for the future. My guess is that they have had this in mind for plenty of time now. They may have even hoped to add these rewards from day one.

Let’s all take a chill pill, people! Read my sig…

I’m pretty sure this achievement system update has been in the works since they first started tweaking achievements. Which was what..February? March?

Pure speculation. Again, though, we don’t even know what these rewards will be. There’s no sense in complaining about them now. That’s like a little kid who complains about his mom’s dinner before he even tastes it.

tolunart.2095:

The problem isn’t the game, it’s the players.

Sure. Every problem that anybody has ever had in this game is obviously their fault. Couldn’t possibly be anything wrong with this perfect product. Okay.

1000 pts = small karma jug
2000 pts = 2 small karma jugs.

repeat

tolunart.2095:

The problem isn’t the game, it’s the players.

Truth was spoken this day.

For many players, including me, the game is fine and much fun, but threads with titles like “This game is awesome!” are unlikely to be read by many other people, because no one wants to read good things, just the bad things are interesting.
But I can summarize all complaining threads in one sentence:
“This game took a way too important place in my life, so I care that much for it that I have to cry on the forums why they don’t do this and haven’t done that since release and I fail at life so I need to accomplish things in the Videogame world”.

People take this way to seriously. While it’s fine to suggest, it’s useless to complain and cry like anyone at Anet would give a kitten. They will do their thing and the game continues to evolve. You wouldn’t travel back in time to scream at monkeys why they aren’t putting a kittening fire up, would you?

When the game is bad, you blame the player. Everyone else is doing it!

TwoBit.5903:

When the game is bad, you blame the player. Everyone else is doing it!

Sorry to rip you out of your little dreamland but there are people on this earth who aren’t like you, lets say about 7 billion (yeah there are this many other humans on this earth! You probably didn’t even notice from looking in the mirror all the time). And out of the playerbase there are enough players who love the game, I bet those are even more than half the playerbase.

TwoBit.5903:

When the game is bad, you blame the player. Everyone else is doing it!

When the game is bad I leave.

Justdeifyme.9387:

TwoBit.5903:

When the game is bad, you blame the player. Everyone else is doing it!

Sorry to rip you out of your little dreamland but there are people on this earth who aren’t like you, lets say about 7 billion (yeah there are this many other humans on this earth! You probably didn’t even notice from looking in the mirror all the time). And out of the playerbase there are enough players who love the game, I bet those are even more than half the playerbase.

I don’t dislike the game, there are issues but it’s not that bad. What’s bad is the rhetoric where the player is at fault for the game’s failings. What’s even worse is players who like this game are blaming other players in order to shield the company and their game from useful criticisms as well as their own egos.. It’s disgusting and self-indulgent behavior.

So you went from “The game is Bad” to “but it’s not that bad”, I don’t know what your exact opinion about it is. What I was trying to say, there are people who feel perfectly fine with the game and aren’t fanboys or defenders and you should be aware of those. You can’t state “This game is bad”, as it is your own subjective opinion.
My opinion for example is “the game has a solid foundation to build the best MMO on”. Of course it’s not perfect and positive critisism with a solution to every problem is great for the developer, but just saying that this game sucks isn’t helping anyone. And mostly it will make you a target of wrath and flame for something you probably wrote with not much of a thought behind.

I said “when” it’s bad. Grammar is cool.

As players like me are currently blaming other players because of their complaining, “when” has been applied.

Trouble with blaming other players is that you end up with a side essentially hollering “l2”, which is not the problem.

Yes, developing a game is always going to be a delicate balance of creating the game itself and managing player expectations. Of course there are both some things that could be improved in the game and some players who simply insist on making the game something it should be to suit them. This will be the case for EVERY game, which is why the job of the devs is, as I said, MANAGING expectations.

This isn’t easy. People are all individual, and their expectations include far too many variables. The fact that some people are very satisfied with this game should testify that it isn’t all bad with the game. YES, some people are easily satisfied, but similarly at the other end of the table, some people are easily dissatisfied.

It is usually the dissatisfied that come to the forums. If you are happy with something you generally don’t feel the need to tell people about it. So the louder voices always appear to be the malcontents. Go on any gaming forum and check the threads – I doubt you’ll find on any of them that the majority are in praise of the game (not after it’s been out for anywhere longer than a month).

So I think it’s not as simple as saying don’t hate the game, hate the players. Because games are made with players in mind. And no, they can’t cater to everyone, but there needs to be a balance.

MightyMicah.7451:

fellyn.5083:

MightyMicah.7451:

Lol people are disapproving of the new rewards before we even know just what these rewards are? Yeah, they gave us a basic description but no more. Seriously, guys?

Also, is there any evidence that this was a direct response to the community? Honestly, I highly doubt it. Developers don’t plan a massive game like GW2 without a good, solid plan for the future. My guess is that they have had this in mind for plenty of time now. They may have even hoped to add these rewards from day one.

Let’s all take a chill pill, people! Read my sig…

I’m pretty sure this achievement system update has been in the works since they first started tweaking achievements. Which was what..February? March?

Pure speculation. Again, though, we don’t even know what these rewards will be. There’s no sense in complaining about them now. That’s like a little kid who complains about his mom’s dinner before he even tastes it.

Well..it’s not. When they first announced they were making changes to the achievement system back then they said we’d be able to get laurels via achievements.

At any rate, I’m not complaining.

Esplen.3940:

Blackmoon.6837:

No one seems to care anymore about the rest of the game. The mass attitude being displayed as of late is rage over the supposed lack of prize for time given. People just want rewards, they want them quick and they want to feel encumbered by such.

It feels as if the players have more concern for their own prominence in the game instead of obtaining enjoyment from a collaboration.

“I don’t want achievement rewards to include daily and monthly points because too many other people are going to have excessive amounts before me.”

“The risk & reward system is not adequate to what’s necessary for me to immediately display my dedication over other players.”

“The living story is wasted time. You should be focusing on giving us more shiny stuff to continue our charade of ego stroking.”

Again, it is the community that is driving this way of how things work, and that’s just how it is in any game. It’s sad that the devs are listening to the forums as much as they are because I’d rather they just read the forums for the major points and left people to whine as they do (we see a lot of flopping in the living story, not flopping as in “OH THIS FAILED” but as in “oh this is what the community didn’t like last time, let’s change it to this way” —> “oh they didn’t like it, let’s go back to the way before because the community likes it more that way” instead of realizing that the community is just complaining for the sake of complaining).

As for not getting rewards or enjoyment. I’m glad to say that over the course of this year, I have managed to collect to my hearts desire, slowly but surely. What most players don’t realize is that collecting isn’t meant to be something done in a day, it’s supposed to be something done over time.

All the stuff that happens below this is just me bragging while proving my point. None of it is superbly expensive, but it is a collection that has occurred over this games duration thus far.

LMFAO…. great humblebrag on your credit card bill bro… half your inventory is EVERY item only purchaseable via gems… here’s a cookie for earning the “Gift of Credit” lol

TwoBit.5903:

Justdeifyme.9387:

TwoBit.5903:

When the game is bad, you blame the player. Everyone else is doing it!

Sorry to rip you out of your little dreamland but there are people on this earth who aren’t like you, lets say about 7 billion (yeah there are this many other humans on this earth! You probably didn’t even notice from looking in the mirror all the time). And out of the playerbase there are enough players who love the game, I bet those are even more than half the playerbase.

I don’t dislike the game, there are issues but it’s not that bad. What’s bad is the rhetoric where the player is at fault for the game’s failings. What’s even worse is players who like this game are blaming other players in order to shield the company and their game from useful criticisms as well as their own egos.. It’s disgusting and self-indulgent behavior.

Disgusting self-indulgent behavior? Bahahaha!

We’re not the ones complaining about the best mmo to ever be released. Learn to appreciate what you have. Learn the virtue called “patience.” Anet is working on this game and pushing it in a great direction. If you can’t see that then you shouldn’t play video games because you’re blind.

MightyMicah.7451:

TwoBit.5903:

Justdeifyme.9387:

TwoBit.5903:

When the game is bad, you blame the player. Everyone else is doing it!

Sorry to rip you out of your little dreamland but there are people on this earth who aren’t like you, lets say about 7 billion (yeah there are this many other humans on this earth! You probably didn’t even notice from looking in the mirror all the time). And out of the playerbase there are enough players who love the game, I bet those are even more than half the playerbase.

I don’t dislike the game, there are issues but it’s not that bad. What’s bad is the rhetoric where the player is at fault for the game’s failings. What’s even worse is players who like this game are blaming other players in order to shield the company and their game from useful criticisms as well as their own egos.. It’s disgusting and self-indulgent behavior.

Disgusting self-indulgent behavior? Bahahaha!

We’re not the ones complaining about the best mmo to ever be released. Learn to appreciate what you have. Learn the virtue called “patience.” Anet is working on this game and pushing it in a great direction. If you can’t see that then you shouldn’t play video games because you’re blind.

Best mmo to ever be created? That’s questionable. It’s all a matter of opinion, and I see far too often that people on these forums unable to debate without attacking one another simply because they can’t see past their own biases and opinions. I can just as easily say that you’re blind and my argument will have just as much merit, by which I mean none because personal attacks are not conducive to constructive debate. Furthermore if the game is so great, it would help to describe why, giving others insight and not simply repeat the “the game” to stroke your own bias of it That’s just self-indulgent posting.

You could add in more progression that hard to get but the reaction of the over all gw2 community to this progression and being hard to get was near rioting level. I think your views and the over all community views are very disconnected.

MightyMicah.7451:

We’re not the ones complaining about the best mmo to ever be released.

“The best” is debatable – and even if it’s true it’s more the statements about how bad the other MMOs are, not about how good GW2 is. It certainly doesn’t mean it lacks any flaws whatsoever as you seem to imply.

MightyMicah.7451:

Learn to appreciate what you have. Learn the virtue called “patience.” Anet is working on this game and pushing it in a great direction.

What’s so great about RNG boxes, grind and vertical progression hamster wheels? Because those are some of the directions that Anet’s been pushing the game towards since the launch.

I didn’t make this post so you guys could play the blame game. I was merely hoping to have a discussion about a mindset being developed within this community.

It’s clear as day that rewards are set as a major issue among the lot of you. I want to know why rewards have to be such a priority. Why not aim at reworking replay value so people can have fun taking on missions without ever having a second thought about how they’ll be rewarded? Wouldn’t that be a better improvement? Imagine, end-game, people signing in because they actually want to fight the flame legion and not worry too much about tokens, gold or w/e.

I’m not suggesting we take away rewards. I’m simply wondering how such a grand MMO has withered down to greed.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Esplen.3940:

Blackmoon.6837:

No one seems to care anymore about the rest of the game. The mass attitude being displayed as of late is rage over the supposed lack of prize for time given. People just want rewards, they want them quick and they want to feel encumbered by such.

It feels as if the players have more concern for their own prominence in the game instead of obtaining enjoyment from a collaboration.

“I don’t want achievement rewards to include daily and monthly points because too many other people are going to have excessive amounts before me.”

“The risk & reward system is not adequate to what’s necessary for me to immediately display my dedication over other players.”

“The living story is wasted time. You should be focusing on giving us more shiny stuff to continue our charade of ego stroking.”

Again, it is the community that is driving this way of how things work, and that’s just how it is in any game. It’s sad that the devs are listening to the forums as much as they are because I’d rather they just read the forums for the major points and left people to whine as they do (we see a lot of flopping in the living story, not flopping as in “OH THIS FAILED” but as in “oh this is what the community didn’t like last time, let’s change it to this way” —> “oh they didn’t like it, let’s go back to the way before because the community likes it more that way” instead of realizing that the community is just complaining for the sake of complaining).

As for not getting rewards or enjoyment. I’m glad to say that over the course of this year, I have managed to collect to my hearts desire, slowly but surely. What most players don’t realize is that collecting isn’t meant to be something done in a day, it’s supposed to be something done over time.

All the stuff that happens below this is just me bragging while proving my point. None of it is superbly expensive, but it is a collection that has occurred over this games duration thus far.

LMFAO…. great humblebrag on your credit card bill bro… half your inventory is EVERY item only purchaseable via gems… here’s a cookie for earning the “Gift of Credit” lol

I don’t have a credit card. Most, if not all, of those items are purchased via in-game gold. kitten.

Blackmoon.6837:

It’s clear as day that rewards are set as a major issue among the lot of you. I want to know why rewards have to be such a priority. Why not aim at reworking replay value so people can have fun taking on missions without ever having a second thought about how they’ll be rewarded?

I don’t know. Ask Anet. They were the ones that put emphasis on gear and rewards with introduction of ascended eq, and with insane prices on everything. Me, i just wanted cool skins for my char and good content to play through. Living story helps to kill time, but i wouldn’t call it a good content. And as for the cool skins, there weren’t many of those after launch, and those that were introduced ended in stupid RNG boxes.

The behaviour of players is strongly influenced by game design. Not by stated goals, but with what we really get. You cannot fix the mindset of players without fixing the game design first.

“Insane prices.” This is exactly the problem.

Players all assume they are entitled to affordable exotic gear and legendary weapons, once they reach level 80. If this was the design, it would have been far easier to just have one level of item quality. It feels like an attempt to recreate the disparity of real life, and it is working.

As for game progression.. I’ll be here for a while, and I bet you the game will continue to get better and better.

I have played a lot of video games in the past 32 years, and I I feel GW2 is the BEST video game of them. Why is this the best? It gives me the most fluid, immersive experience. It looks amazing, the character control is unreal.

Sure there are optimization issues.. but that too will pass.

Tyria is my home, and I will fight to defend it.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

Tyria is my home, and I will fight to defend it.

I agree completely with most of your points. However, I do wish the game was a little more immersive, such as your character creation depicting what you get (ex. Human racials revolve around chosen God, Asura racials revolve around chosen paths) and other things like having all weapons for all professions.

Of course, I’m sure Anet will figure out a way to please me in these regards in the future…. not that I’m displeased, far from it, I could just be… more pleased.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

Players all assume they are entitled to affordable exotic gear and legendary weapons, once they reach level 80.

That hsould have been true if indeed this game would not put much emphasis on gear, drops and rewards. The fact that people cannot get affordable and easily achieveable BiS gear is exactly the part of game design that points us to the big sign with the message “stuff is important, go grind it”.

If grinding was not supposed to be such a core activity for any players, there would have been no need for those prices.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

It feels like an attempt to recreate the disparity of real life, and it is working.

Why would i play in a virtual world only to recreate those aspects of the real one i’d gladly do without?

Esplen.3940:

All the stuff that happens below this is just me bragging while proving my point. None of it is superbly expensive, but it is a collection that has occurred over this games duration thus far.

That’s a lot of useless junk you have there.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Trouble with blaming other players is that you end up with a side essentially hollering “l2”, which is not the problem.

Yes, developing a game is always going to be a delicate balance of creating the game itself and managing player expectations. Of course there are both some things that could be improved in the game and some players who simply insist on making the game something it should be to suit them. This will be the case for EVERY game, which is why the job of the devs is, as I said, MANAGING expectations.

This isn’t easy. People are all individual, and their expectations include far too many variables. The fact that some people are very satisfied with this game should testify that it isn’t all bad with the game. YES, some people are easily satisfied, but similarly at the other end of the table, some people are easily dissatisfied.

It is usually the dissatisfied that come to the forums. If you are happy with something you generally don’t feel the need to tell people about it. So the louder voices always appear to be the malcontents. Go on any gaming forum and check the threads – I doubt you’ll find on any of them that the majority are in praise of the game (not after it’s been out for anywhere longer than a month).

So I think it’s not as simple as saying don’t hate the game, hate the players. Because games are made with players in mind. And no, they can’t cater to everyone, but there needs to be a balance.

/thread

Blackmoon.6837:

It’s clear as day that rewards are set as a major issue among the lot of you. I want to know why rewards have to be such a priority. Why not aim at reworking replay value so people can have fun taking on missions without ever having a second thought about how they’ll be rewarded? Wouldn’t that be a better improvement?

Because players who have flocked to GW2 are MMORPG players, and they have been told by every other MMO that the reward is more important than content.

MMORPGs used to always follow the pay to play model, in which the best strategy to keep players around playing (and thus paying) was to make mediocre content that gives big rewards after a very long time – hence the “kill 10 rats” quests while very slowly levelling, and later raids for a 0.0001% chance to get the item that was the reason people were doing the raid in the first place.

WoW followed this model, was massively successful, and was the first MMORPG for a lot of people. This has led to a very high number of side effects:

• Other game developers want a piece of the WoW pie. They believe they will be the ones to make a game to be as successful as WoW, so they follow the same model with games that are “just like WoW, but…”. Jeff Strain, one of ArenaNet’s founders, made an amazing speech about how that’s a failed attempt here. Regardless, almost all MMORPGs released after WoW follow the same model of mediocre content while players seek huge rewards.

• Players who want fun content have been told, multiple times, to leave MMORPGs. Current MMO players love stating over and over that it’s not possible to make a MMO without a focus on grind, showing how well deceived they have been; but the result is that the MMORPG community is made by people aiming for rewards, not aiming for fun.

• Many players roam from MMO to MMO looking for a copy of their first online world, whether they realize it or not. There’s a great article about that in GamaSutra, here. Ergo, it’s a great thing that most MMO developers are making WoW clones, since that’s exactly what many MMORPG players want. The thing is, those players are searching for a game that would be a better WoW than WoW, and thus are fated to fail. They will never find the game they are looking for, so they keep hopping from MMO to MMO, always complaining about how the new game doesn’t have all features their first MMO had. Meanwhile, what a developer sees is a huge number of players flocking to their game on release (notice how it’s always the same number for big releases – between 1.5 and 3 million players), then a few months later most of those players leave, while complaining that the game lacks features from WoW and its clones (this graphic is a somewhat polluted way to show that pattern). What do the developers do? They panic when they see the falling numbers, and hurry to implement kitten measures that make their game more similar to WoW. Those who were playing the game in order to get away from WoW complain, the other players continue to leave regardless, and the outcome isn’t exactly happy (often going free to play, for pay to play MMORPGs).

(Do notice how, in Guild Wars 2, the time frame for the process above is exactly what would fit the release of Ascended gear, something ArenaNet itself described as poorly implemented. Guess what happened then?)

Then, the answer to your question, about why must the game be about rewards instead of about fun: because that’s how other MMORPGs are. Because that’s the model MMORPG developers are copying. And, more importantly, because that’s what MMORPG players demand. Trying to make anything different will only lead to a massive number of players complaining about the lack of grind, the lack of rewards, and so on.

That’s something ArenaNet has learned while they slowly turn their game from something that tried to focus on fun into something focusing sorely on the rewards, of which the best example was the latest Southsun update – mediocre content, but players went there in droves due to the 200% buff to Magic Find. That’s what MMORPG players want.

And that’s why I hope that ANet stick to their initial philosophies. Sure, they’ll take a hit for it and yes, some people who can’t get around a new mindset will leave. But they’re trying something new, something that could be the basis for other games to come. And they’re dabbling with a different market as well, the previous non-MMO-ers. So there’s a lot of turmoil to be expected, but I do hope they don’t give in and keep with the original idea of playing for fun over reward. A LOT of people play that way, and many others who aren’t MMO players and so might not have really heard of GW2 (I hadn’t) until recently or even yet who might join … they’re opening a whole new market and need to be patient.

Erasculio.2914:

Blackmoon.6837:

It’s clear as day that rewards are set as a major issue among the lot of you. I want to know why rewards have to be such a priority. Why not aim at reworking replay value so people can have fun taking on missions without ever having a second thought about how they’ll be rewarded? Wouldn’t that be a better improvement?

Because players who have flocked to GW2 are MMORPG players, and they have been told by every other MMO that the reward is more important than content.

MMORPGs used to always follow the pay to play model, in which the best strategy to keep players around playing (and thus paying) was to make mediocre content that gives big rewards after a very long time – hence the “kill 10 rats” quests while very slowly levelling, and later raids for a 0.0001% chance to get the item that was the reason people were doing the raid in the first place.

WoW followed this model, was massively successful, and was the first MMORPG for a lot of people. This has led to a very high number of side effects:

• Other game developers want a piece of the WoW pie. They believe they will be the ones to make a game to be as successful as WoW, so they follow the same model with games that are “just like WoW, but…”. Jeff Strain, one of ArenaNet’s founders, made an amazing speech about how that’s a failed attempt here. Regardless, almost all MMORPGs released after WoW follow the same model of mediocre content while players seek huge rewards.

That was a very pragmatic post Erasculio. I’m not sure why we butted heads so fiercely yesterday. I think we are of the same frame of mind, but from slightly different perspectives.

I don’t want loot and I hate forced grouping, but I understand how the dynamic can help an MMO be fun. It fosters a ‘real’ online relationship between fellow players. We have to kill a dragon, what do we do? That’s more fun than, “OMG look at my CAT! It’s so cute.jpg”

GW2 is a step forward in world and blank faced grouping, but it’s not Vanilla WoW, by a longshot and that’s what MMO players are truly looking for, IMO. Not everything gleaned from WoW was bad, not most of it in fact. I came to WoW from EQ1, a grinding hell and I loved it. Easier, faster, smoother, better graphics, tons of spells/abilities to use and it embraced the casual gamer, of which, I count myself.

I’m rambling, so just let me say sorry and that I hear you. We both just want our hobby to live and prosper.

*sorry for the ’snip, post was too long.

Primernova.5791:

That was a very pragmatic post Erasculio. I’m not sure why we butted heads so fiercely yesterday. I think we are of the same frame of mind, but from slightly different perspectives.

Probably because I keep butting heads with people, sorry :-P I agree with your post, too. I think ArenaNet needs to balance different perspectives, I’m not sure they’re quite there yet, but I guess there’s still hope.

CrossedHorse.4261:

And that’s why I hope that ANet stick to their initial philosophies. Sure, they’ll take a hit for it and yes, some people who can’t get around a new mindset will leave. But they’re trying something new, something that could be the basis for other games to come. And they’re dabbling with a different market as well, the previous non-MMO-ers. So there’s a lot of turmoil to be expected, but I do hope they don’t give in and keep with the original idea of playing for fun over reward. A LOT of people play that way, and many others who aren’t MMO players and so might not have really heard of GW2 (I hadn’t) until recently or even yet who might join … they’re opening a whole new market and need to be patient.

What exactly is the, “New Mindset”?

I really am curious. To me, this ‘new MMO mindset’ is to cater to FPS/Console players, where as MOBA/RTS players seem to be the younger audience and like/want harder games.

This isn’t even very accurate, I love Dota2 but it’s very flat and boring compared to older-ish MMO concepts. So it makes no business sense.

The new mindset that I am specifically referring to is the mindset that GW2 is not about the reward, it is about the journey. I’m not saying they got it absolutely right, but their initial drive was for a game that was fun to play. YES, there are rewards, but they are really secondary to the main point that GW2 is about the play.

If ANet failed to make the playing fun and rewarding in an of itself, that’s another issue. But the mindset itself is one that isn’t looking for X reward for X amount of time/effort/skill etc.

To be honest, I’m not sure exactly which players exactly they’ve targeted from the current gaming market, but it doesn’t, if you take Erasculio’s post (which I thought was great) into consideration seem to be the current (or previous to GW2 anyway) MMO players. Well, in their manifesto, the devs specifically state if you hate MMOs you’ll love GW2. And I think, for the most part, they got that right.

So if push came to shove, I’d say they were aiming at the RPG market, not necessarily console. And yes, maybe FPS, but I’m not sure on that one. And the current gaming market is going through a change – it is developing harder, more punishing gameplay with fewer rewards. Look at The Last of Us, or Dark Souls. And the way achievements took forever to get your first one in Tomb Raider (instead of the usual one popping up for “first kill”, “first arrow shot” etc). So there is a general shift towards focus on gameplay over end reward, I think.

But this is a slow progression, and it’s happening in the case of GW2 where there is a well-established tradition of the contrary where high rewards are expected.

Is that any clearer?

CrossedHorse.4261:

The new mindset that I am specifically referring to is the mindset that GW2 is not about the reward, it is about the journey. I’m not saying they got it absolutely right, but their initial drive was for a game that was fun to play. YES, there are rewards, but they are really secondary to the main point that GW2 is about the play.

If ANet failed to make the playing fun and rewarding in an of itself, that’s another issue. But the mindset itself is one that isn’t looking for X reward for X amount of time/effort/skill etc.

To be honest, I’m not sure exactly which players exactly they’ve targeted from the current gaming market, but it doesn’t, if you take Erasculio’s post (which I thought was great) into consideration seem to be the current (or previous to GW2 anyway) MMO players. Well, in their manifesto, the devs specifically state if you hate MMOs you’ll love GW2. And I think, for the most part, they got that right.

So if push came to shove, I’d say they were aiming at the RPG market, not necessarily console. And yes, maybe FPS, but I’m not sure on that one. And the current gaming market is going through a change – it is developing harder, more punishing gameplay with fewer rewards. Look at The Last of Us, or Dark Souls. And the way achievements took forever to get your first one in Tomb Raider (instead of the usual one popping up for “first kill”, “first arrow shot” etc). So there is a general shift towards focus on gameplay over end reward, I think.

But this is a slow progression, and it’s happening in the case of GW2 where there is a well-established tradition of the contrary where high rewards are expected.

Is that any clearer?

That’s very clear and I do love GW2’s world.

I have to think on this, you guys are really messing up my head.

CrossedHorse.4261:

The new mindset that I am specifically referring to is the mindset that GW2 is not about the reward, it is about the journey. I’m not saying they got it absolutely right, but their initial drive was for a game that was fun to play. YES, there are rewards, but they are really secondary to the main point that GW2 is about the play.

If ANet failed to make the playing fun and rewarding in an of itself, that’s another issue. But the mindset itself is one that isn’t looking for X reward for X amount of time/effort/skill etc.

To be honest, I’m not sure exactly which players exactly they’ve targeted from the current gaming market, but it doesn’t, if you take Erasculio’s post (which I thought was great) into consideration seem to be the current (or previous to GW2 anyway) MMO players. Well, in their manifesto, the devs specifically state if you hate MMOs you’ll love GW2. And I think, for the most part, they got that right.

So if push came to shove, I’d say they were aiming at the RPG market, not necessarily console. And yes, maybe FPS, but I’m not sure on that one. And the current gaming market is going through a change – it is developing harder, more punishing gameplay with fewer rewards. Look at The Last of Us, or Dark Souls. And the way achievements took forever to get your first one in Tomb Raider (instead of the usual one popping up for “first kill”, “first arrow shot” etc). So there is a general shift towards focus on gameplay over end reward, I think.

But this is a slow progression, and it’s happening in the case of GW2 where there is a well-established tradition of the contrary where high rewards are expected.

Is that any clearer?

This is also due to the mindset change of playerbase. Guild Wars 2 is and was fun to play. It has only changed because we got used to it. It got old. Players got burnt out. What a lot of players really want is that “New” feeling. But no matter what that “New” feeling is no longer available.

anzenketh.3759:

This is also due to the mindset change of playerbase. Guild Wars 2 is and was fun to play. It has only changed because we got used to it. It got old. Players got burnt out. What a lot of players really want is that “New” feeling. But no matter what that “New” feeling is no longer available.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. This, imo, is a major contributing factor to the dissatisfaction on these forums. the stuff in GW2 STILL is groundbreaking in terms of gaming today, but we’ve got used to it.

tolunart.2095:

The problem isn’t the game, it’s the players.

He’s right.

Despite the fact that Anet put plenty of things for a community of players to do together, players will invariably gravitate toward the shiniest loot. Which means, that the only way for Anet to forcibly direct its playerbase to a certain area/playstyle would be to increase the profit from said area/playstyle. In other words, if Anet wants more players in Orr running cooperative DEs, then they need to increase the loot gained there doing just that. It’s unfortunate.

I agree with the OP. Games should be played for the “fun factor.” Unfortunately, evidence has shown that players are willing to sacrifice fun just for more shinies (CoF #1 runs).

I think they’re simply overdoing it with their recent announcement of tangible achievement point overhauls, as some of you complain about it. I tend to agree, but I don’t think of it as quite so black and white as to take one side or the other. There are clearly some broken mechanisms being added, and there are also some things that I thought should have already been in the game to begin with. Since we have a list now, I’d like to examine them individually:

Exclusive armor and weapon skin unlocks – I’ve mixed feelings about this one. Are you unlocking them or trading achievement points as some form of currency? I’d agree to a small occasional unlocking system perhaps, but I don’t much care for the idea personally. Think of new players vs. experienced players. That sort of thing.

Permanent account bonuses—This had better be kitten expensive. Say, 1000 per 1% increase in magic find?

Currencies – No, no, no, all of my no. This should never be a thing. Ever. No. Just no. Did I say no enough? Not only is it broken, but it’s a system that can’t be fixed no matter what the exchange rates are. These are clearly tangible benefits which in my opinion shouldn’t be in game. I feel the same way about the gem store, specifically everything worth gold can be bought with real money. I’m not a fan of that either. Gold, karma, laurals, should all be earned though their respective methods. This puts experienced players at a distinct advantage- especially laurals. If I can get better gear simply by being around longer- I don’t think that’s acceptable.

PvP Rewards— Skins and glory boosters. Skins really don’t matter in the context of arena fighting style, in my opinion. And for the most part, they don’t really matter. Considering glory boosters are easy to get, I don’t see a problem with those either.

WvW Rewards— No. See currencies.

Utility Items— These had better be kitten expensive. And in my opinion, not actually a thing. But since these are the items you’re encouraged to buy with real life currency; this is probably a better system.

Unique Titles— Why wasn’t this in the game before? I honestly think that this should have been added to start with. It’s intangible, but still shows off the player’s progression throughout the game. This is the best thing I could hope for in regards to achievement points, and was actually a bit disappointed by there not being an aggregate title for points earned.

See what I’m getting at though? Achievement points are for kitten, not “I wreck you because I’ve played longer.”

But then again, I’m a fan of games like Dayz, where people can hold you up or kill you “not because they’re ten levels higher than you are, but simply because they found a gun and you didn’t.” So, my opinion may not extend to any MMORPG model when all I play are typically MMOFPS/FPS.

We are all just a bunch of skritt. Oh look shiny.

The good news is Guild Wars 2 is trying to increase the reward level across the board to help players that can keep the perspective have fun but not miss out on anything rewarding at the same time give the skritt more shinies.

Recalibar.6482:

Currencies – No, no, no, all of my no. This should never be a thing. Ever. No. Just no. Did I say no enough? Not only is it broken, but it’s a system that can’t be fixed no matter what the exchange rates are. These are clearly tangible benefits which in my opinion shouldn’t be in game. I feel the same way about the gem store, specifically everything worth gold can be bought with real money. I’m not a fan of that either. Gold, karma, laurals, should all be earned though their respective methods. This puts experienced players at a distinct advantage- especially laurals. If I can get better gear simply by being around longer- I don’t think that’s acceptable.

Every game has some sort of time gated material in it. Things get time gated otherwise players will get them WAY sooner then intented and cry. “I’m Bored” see my previous post about playing the game for fun. As the players who can keep perspective and enjoy the game for what it is will get them in due time and feel a acheavment.

Ohh new shiny must have it now.

anzenketh.3759:

This is also due to the mindset change of playerbase. Guild Wars 2 is and was fun to play. It has only changed because we got used to it. It got old. Players got burnt out. What a lot of players really want is that “New” feeling. But no matter what that “New” feeling is no longer available.

I’m not sure that’s the only issue.

One of the reasons why I’m against farming is due to how I believe it creates a mentality in which players accept poor content just because it comes with a reward at the end.

Take a look at the recent Southsun event, for example. It had:

• Very poor storytelling. It began exactly with the same premise a lot of other pieces of the Living Story had – Kiel asks for players to help with an issue somewhere. It was then followed by a “reveal” lost in the middle of a crowded event, that Canach was behind all of it, without really telling people who Canach was (for those who missed the previous Southsun event). The entire story didn’t add anything to what we had previously seen, as far as storytelling go – no improved cinematics, no interesting dialogue system, nothing.

• Very poor dynamic events. The main events, the ones with chests at the end, were basically the same even repeating over and over in two different points of the island. It didn’t add any interesting or new mechanic to dynamic events.

• Very poor meta event. Considering how ArenaNet was talking about improving the World Bosses, the fight against the Karka Queen is a massive let down – she’s just a more powerful Champion Karka. There isn’t anything compelling about that fight, it’s just more mindless zerg like so many of the Dragon events.

However, a lot of players went there to play. I’m willing to wager that this was because of the 200% buff to Magic Find and the guaranteed chests from the main dynamic events, regardless if the content was fun or not.

In other words, ArenaNet didn’t have to worry about the content being fun. Giving enough rewards was enough to make players flock to the area. This creates an issue – if ArenaNet doesn’t need to make fun content for people to play the game, just to give a lot of rewards, wouldn’t it be easier for the company to give up on fun content and just give reward after reward?

Erasculio.2914:

anzenketh.3759:

This is also due to the mindset change of playerbase. Guild Wars 2 is and was fun to play. It has only changed because we got used to it. It got old. Players got burnt out. What a lot of players really want is that “New” feeling. But no matter what that “New” feeling is no longer available.

I’m not sure that’s the only issue.

One of the reasons why I’m against farming is due to how I believe it creates a mentality in which players accept poor content just because it comes with a reward at the end.

Take a look at the recent Southsun event, for example. It had:

• Very poor storytelling. It began exactly with the same premise a lot of other pieces of the Living Story had – Kiel asks for players to help with an issue somewhere. It was then followed by a “reveal” lost in the middle of a crowded event, that Canach was behind all of it, without really telling people who Canach was (for those who missed the previous Southsun event). The entire story didn’t add anything to what we had previously seen, as far as storytelling go – no improved cinematics, no interesting dialogue system, nothing.

• Very poor dynamic events. The main events, the ones with chests at the end, were basically the same even repeating over and over in two different points of the island. It didn’t add any interesting or new mechanic to dynamic events.

• Very poor meta event. Considering how ArenaNet was talking about improving the World Bosses, the fight against the Karka Queen is a massive let down – she’s just a more powerful Champion Karka. There isn’t anything compelling about that fight, it’s just more mindless zerg like so many of the Dragon events.

However, a lot of players went there to play. I’m willing to wager that this was because of the 200% buff to Magic Find and the guaranteed chests from the main dynamic events, regardless if the content was fun or not.

In other words, ArenaNet didn’t have to worry about the content being fun. Giving enough rewards was enough to make players flock to the area. This creates an issue – if ArenaNet doesn’t need to make fun content for people to play the game, just to give a lot of rewards, wouldn’t it be easier for the company to give up on fun content and just give reward after reward?

Can ArenaNet do better on not creating events that are easily farmed. Shure. I think that their reward system and the new achievement UI can play a large hand in that.

However the reason why people farm more is still due to the change in their viewpoints. The core problem is not the game it is the players. The game can only encourage players to do something else not force them.

tolunart.2095:

The problem isn’t the game, it’s the players.

Sorry, but the players didn’t choose the servers, the players didn’t make it so that we have crazy insane skill lag in WvW, that is Anet’s fault, that is a server issue and that is a huge problem.