Guild Wars 2

I had a shower thought about toughness last night that I want to run by y’all.

TL;DR: Change toughness from an armor modifier to a defensive buff modifier.

So first, some context, the main content I play is T4 Fractals, Dungeons, and Open World content. So of course that means I don’t have much experience with WvW and PvP especially so this suggestion may not work due to these game modes. However, in the game modes I do play, I’ve been a little disappointed that toughness doesn’t have much use. I would love to play a useful high toughness character in T4 fractals but there isn’t much desire for this.

The reason for this, I think, is that GW2 prioritizes active mechanics over passive mechanics, which is great, but that means it won’t ever prioritize toughness.

So, what if toughness were changed from a trait that adds to your armor (a passive buff) to a a trait that increases the usefulness of applied buffs. For example.

• Aegis applied to you and your group changes from blocking the next incoming attack to blocking a high amount of damage of the next incoming attack depending on the casters toughness. Higher toughness = more damage blocked.
• Protection applied to you and your group changes from reducing all damage by 33% to reducing a certain amount of damage of the next incoming attack depending on the casters toughness. Higher toughness = greater protection. This should cap of course, I would say around 40% but maybe lower.
• Resistance applied to you and your group changes from making all conditions ineffective to a certain number of conditions ineffective based on the casters toughness. Higher toughness = more conditions rendered ineffective.
• Retaliation applied to you and your group changes from being power based to being both power based and toughness based. According to the wiki the formula for retaliation is 200 + (0.075 x Power). This could change to 100 + (0.075 x Power) + (0.075 x Toughness) for example.
• Stability applied to you and your group changes from making all CC’s applied to you ineffective to scaling the ineffectiveness of CC’s to the toughness of the caster. Low toughness means only softer CC’s can be blocked, medium toughness means medium CC’s can be blocked, and high toughness means the hardest CC’s can be blocked.
• Vigor applied to you and your group changes from increasing regeneration by 50% to increasing regeneration depending on the casters toughness. Higher toughness = a greater percentage of endurance regeneration. This would also need to cap, I would say around 60%.

These are all of course just possibilities and are meant to represent the idea and how I think it would work rather than an exact implementation plan.

One problem I see is what happens if the same buff is applied from different sources with different levels of toughness? I think there are a few ways this could be handled.

• 1 option would be to have the caster with the highest toughness dictate how effective the buff is and other casters increase the duration of the buff.
• Another option is to increase the effectiveness of the buff based on the collective toughness of all the casters.
• I could see some combination of both of these being other options.

So that’s my idea to revamp toughness. It’s not perfect of course, but I’d love to know your thoughts.

No.

You basically want all these mechanics to be useless, or seriously nerfed, just to randomly shoehorn toughness into being meta or viable, when it already is- just not in any of the game modes you play. It’s critical in PvP, WvW and raids, and working just fine as it is.

Tentonhammr.7849:

No.

You basically want all these mechanics to be useless, or seriously nerfed, just to randomly shoehorn toughness into being meta or viable, when it already is- just not in any of the game modes you play. It’s critical in PvP, WvW and raids, and working just fine as it is.

I think you may have misread this post. With a high amount of toughness these mechanics would be buffed, not nerfed. Neither is this meant to randomly shoehorn in toughness but make it a trait that effects active mechanics. This could be fun for all game modes.

Of course, like both of us have said, I don’t play PvP or WvW (although I’ve played a little of the latter). But just because it’s used doesn’t mean it’s fine as is. As to raids, it is used but it isn’t critical, a group can do quite well without any toughness gear.

But rather than just saying “no” and “it’s fine” as is could you explain yourself further? Why is it fine as is? Why would this change be worse than it currently is?

So, aegis and protection become the exact same thing? potentially with a different scale only?

Stab becomes: reduces length of fear, knockdown, float, reduces distance of blowout/knockback?

That stab change would probably melt a few servers with the extra calculations. Particularly wvw ones.

Making aegis not actually block an attack, but purely behave as a high scaled % protection is in line with the smiter’s boon nerf of gw1.
This would also require a huge complicated overhaul of the code for stability, and control effects.

That definitely wouldn’t end well.

ZacHank.1358:

The reason for this, I think, is that GW2 prioritizes active mechanics over passive mechanics, which is great, but that means it won’t ever prioritize toughness.

And why is that a bad thing? People choose extra toughness now for a variety of reasons:

• Some bosses aggro on the character with highest toughness, allow the team to control the boss’ movement and attacks, at least, to a great extent.
• High-toughness builds are extremely useful for a variety of game modes to allow support-heavy builds to focus on support, rather than worrying about maintaining health.
• There are all sorts of high-toughness WvW builds
• Toughness is also very useful for people learning certain builds, as it gives them more wiggle room to learn their rotation during combat — mistakes are punished less harshly than running full glass.

In short, there are already reasons that people take toughness.

toughness is a useless stat besides wvw that is nothing but a choice
and one person has to have some toughness in raid to aggro the boss
i dont see any other use for it

Unfortunately for the proposal detailed here, Toughness already has too much utility just in soaking up direct damage. And everything, everything does some form of direct damage. And sometimes, much to my incredible annoyance, it persists long after a single dodge roll or block/reflect or aegis can tolerate. (No seriously, wth, bristlebacks…)

If anything needs more support, it’s Vitality and Healing Power. Vitality only partially magnifies with Toughness and provides a buffer (not a defense) against condition damage. Otherwise, it’s a pathetic 10HP per point. Sure, you could use that to get 10,000HP if you really commit, but that’s not sustainability, and your damage is buried in the ground if you do.
It’d be great if Vitality did something else, like incoming healing % or condition duration reduction, but it’s just HP. Woo.

Healing Power is even worse with the way that healing skills scale. The forums had bantered many utilities for Healing Power, especially boon duration. That went to Concentration instead. Sadness.

Point being, there’s worse things than what Toughness lacks. It might not be meta, but it’s always useful, even with decreasing gains due to the damage formula.

PROS

• Some of the people who want toughness to matter in one segment of the PvE game will be pleased. I say some because not all the people who want Toughness to be part of a dungeon/Fractals meta will be happy if its passive damage reduction as part of the Armor stat is removed.

CONS

• Reducing everyone’s Armor stat across all game modes to the Defense stat on their armor will cause sweeping changes in PvP, WvW and, in PvE, for players who already use Toughness as it is currently intended. This could be partially solved by splitting stat functionality by game mode. However, Anet has shown little to no inclination to split functionality within modes, and there are PvE players who use Toughness as is. Further, not all professions have equal access to boons,so we’d see a universal benefit (Toughness’ passive damage reduction), replaced by a profession-limited benefit.
• If the existing boons that Toughness would make better are not nerfed, then there would be no change in instanced content PuG metas. Those boons do the job as is, leaving them as is does not create a need, which seems to be the OP’s goal.
• If the boons were nerfed in order to pave the way for the proposed new Toughness stat function to mean anything in PuG group instanced PvE metas, then we’re back to ANet having to split boon functionality by mode or live with the massive impact the change would have on sPvP and WvW.
• There is already a stat, Concentration, which buffs boons by extending their duration. Does the game need another stat to buff boons? If it got one, there would be a massive shake-up in any game mode in which the changes took effect. Again, I’m leery about a universal benefit being replaced by a profession-limited one. We already hear about some professions being left out. The proposed changes would not reduce those complaints, and might make for more of them.

DISCUSSION POINTS

Dungeons (fractals specifically) seem to be the area the OP takes issue with. As long as any dungeon encounter requires players to kill mobs, the meta is going to insist that groups bring as much damage as the game allows. So, for the meta to shift to include Toughness, the content itself would have to change to make those enhanced boons be deemed necessary. What this means is that parties would now require a boon bot with Toughness. Again, since access to boons is nowhere near equal, only certain professions will be included as the new boon bot. What this would also mean is that parties which currently do fractals with off-meta comps would also need a boon bot. I don’t view that as a positive change to the game. Ommv.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dungeons (fractals specifically) seem to be the area the OP takes issue with. As long as any dungeon encounter requires players to kill mobs, the meta is going to insist that groups bring as much damage as the game allows. So, for the meta to shift to include Toughness, the content itself would have to change to make those enhanced boons be deemed necessary. What this means is that parties would now require a boon bot with Toughness. Again, since access to boons is nowhere near equal, only certain professions will be included as the new boon bot. What this would also mean is that parties which currently do fractals with off-meta comps would also need a boon bot. I don’t view that as a positive change to the game. Ommv.

The solution to that is the same as it has always been. Start your own group.

Khisanth.2948:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dungeons (fractals specifically) seem to be the area the OP takes issue with. As long as any dungeon encounter requires players to kill mobs, the meta is going to insist that groups bring as much damage as the game allows. So, for the meta to shift to include Toughness, the content itself would have to change to make those enhanced boons be deemed necessary. What this means is that parties would now require a boon bot with Toughness. Again, since access to boons is nowhere near equal, only certain professions will be included as the new boon bot. What this would also mean is that parties which currently do fractals with off-meta comps would also need a boon bot. I don’t view that as a positive change to the game. Ommv.

The solution to that is the same as it has always been. Start your own group.

Of course. I didn’t say it because it has been said so many times. Alas, those who ask for these types of changes want to drop into any meta group without the effort needed to start their own — and without the relative uncertainty of a non-meta group.

Thanks for the feedback on this guys. I want to add some clarification and then my opinions on what’s been said so far.

1. The utility of toughness would change with this suggestion. It would not remain a damage soaker.

2. It’s not bad that the game prioritizes active mechanics. I really enjoy that. I wish stats like toughness had more active mechanics to them. Take power for instance, it effects your direct damage which can only be dealt using active mechanics. I think something similar for toughness would be in line with that, hence this idea.

3. It does feel a little too similar to concentration. So perhaps a boon buffer isn’t the answer. That said, I think this moves towards making more professions useful. That would leave fewer professions out of content, not more.

4. Not sure how the suggestion to start my own group is relevant to this. I start my own groups all the time, often non-meta. Those who suggest this as if I haven’t done this assume a lot of me and we all know what happens when we assume. This suggestion comes after I have put in the effort to create my own groups, so obviously that isn’t the answer here. It also doesn’t come out of a desire to drop into any meta group without effort. It comes from a desire to see stats like toughness effect active mechanics.

5. We’ve had quite a few shakeups in GW2 before and people always complain. I don’t think that’s a good reason to disregard this suggestion, more just something to keep in the back of one’s mind. I think the focus of critique should be on the mechanics instead, which for the most part it has been, but I wanted to note that.

I think the biggest things to consider, for those interested in discussing, is what the sweeping changes would really look like in all game modes, and how those changes would effect the players.

Thanks!

It’s true that people complain about change — that’s human nature.

However, I don’t see that there’s an issue that needs to be addressed here and I’m not sure that your suggestion would have the impact you hope for. Toughness already gets used for various purposes now. It’s even useful in PvE for players that are less comfortable going ‘glass’ with optimized builds for DPS that require excellent active defense.

I am not sure that we need defense to be more active than is already the case. I think that there are players out there that want the passive defensive cushion that they currently can get out of toughness.

Or just make the skills scale with attributes, like in Guild Wars 1 with the attribute lines or (for a more recent example) League of Legends.

You want a elite specialisation to build mainly around toughness? Make its abillity scale with toughness and player will buy toughness gear. Simple answer. For illustration how that might work just look at a random GW1 skill and replace the attribute line scaling with an actual attribute scaling (in steps of 50 or so)