Guild Wars 2

It all comes down to economy and psychology. I am an expert in neither, but I can use google.

Firstly, the meta is a response to the way in which the game is set up… lots of magical one shots, active mitigation, the lack of a ‘holy’ trinity. There are no ‘defined and necessary’ roles to balance around, beyond DPS. This makes all defensive stats obsolete once your own personal skill cap is raised to a certain point.

Why do people behave like this?

At what point did we start logging on to “clear content as fast as possible”?

At what point did the fun become secondary to the money we can make?

And what the kitten are we making money for? If not to play the game then what?

Your making money from speed running dungeons, to get better gear, to super speed run dungeons…. for…. what?

I often hear, “yeah, but I just don’t wanna spend all night trying to clear this.”

What they are saying is “I’d rather be doing something else with my time.”

Like what? Like playing some other aspect of this game? If you have things going on in your life…. then log off mid run. Really. It’s ok. We’ve all had random’s drop out, and we have a pretty darn good LFG tool…. its fine. You want to go live your life? Do it. You wanna play the game? Please loose this “clear it fast” mentality.

We all get to max level pretty quickly, and now, due to tomes of knowledge, writs of xp, crafting xp (which is easily fueled by gems and gold)… one can get to 80 in a week of “hobby time”

Is this a bad thing? Nope.

But what it does do is leave some people relatively clueless about how their class works in group content. Something that was worked around by giving us a tiered system of progressively higher leveled group content.

However that content, has been taken over by elitists.

These elitists have forgotten that they play a game, and have signed on for a second JOB. They clear as fast as possible without seeing that its all circular… they clear fast to get faster at clearing fast. I wonder… do they get a warm fuzzy sense of accomplishment?

“Yeah man, we all like stacked in a corner, and cced the boss so he couldn’t even like hit us and stuff, man…. then we did it again… 6 rimes in a row, man!… yea, man just under 12 gold…. I’m a super trump-rich, man.”

“Oh… err, what are you gonna do with that gold?”

“Well, man I’m like gonna buy the parts to make like, some ascended gear man! You like gotta have the best gear, man… that’s, like, what you do on games like this right, man?”

“Well…what are you gonna do when that’s done… and you have your skins… and your legendries, and your fifteen 5000 gold dyes?”

" I’m, like, gonna either quit, man, or start another toon man.. that’s just what you do. Right. man?"

“NO, It isn’t.”

I’m sorry to say, that all of you “meta” do it fast, in all ’zerk, link gear on joining, perfect speed runners…. are highly skilled players, who are wrong about why one plays a game at all.

The point is to have fun… its to get online with friends… or PUGs, and to escape into a fantasy world for while.

And ya know what? I have kittenloads of fun on this game. This game is kitten great! And I know you agree with me. If you don’t… and your wasting your life trolling a forum of a game that you think is kitten…. Then, I feel genuinely sorry for you. Go log into facebook or something.

And ya know what, ‘meta’ players? You are the loud minority.

Let me tell you how you got that way. Noobs.

I’m not saying that you are noobs… not at all actually. I’m saying that noobs look up to you.

Jay Random noob hits 80, and goes kitten , what do I need to become ‘good at this game’ now that I’m at max level? So he hops on the fourms, and checks out youtube… he then idealizes those that he perceives to be great, and becomes a ‘follower’. This same phenomena is why I know who David Beckham is, and I have never sat through a whole game if soccer in my life.

They learn that the ‘only’ way to get good… is to be you. And what happened to your ego? it balloons up like crazy! Is that wrong? NO. Because you have followers. Most folks with a following have an ego.

So… these ‘noobs’ watch these videos and take the advice on this forum, and pop onto metabattle, and they go and spend hard earned gold and sometimes real money getting hugely overpriced zerk gear… then the get in random pugs, and the DIE REPEATEDLY. Why? Because doing what the ‘meta’ does takes lots of skill. And you need voicechat and regular practice, repeated times trying to clear content until you get it down pat. (And if it came easy for you, congratulations on your natural aptitude, which not all of us have.)

Then the rest of us, the non-followers, we get upset, because your passing down high skill level play and calling it the only way. You attack everyone who isn’t doing it your way… you come on these forums and chew up and spit out anyone who thinks that your way is “lazy” or “un-fun” or “cheap”, even folks trying to propose alternatives without insult. You spend time chastising people who want to have fun. (when you could be speed running dungeons)

And you know what? It makes having fun harder.

The more you speak up about how those of us in nomad gear, or sentinels, or settlers, or hell… even rampager’s, are all NOOBS. (Some of the kinder of your ilk will point out that, you can “play what you want, even though its sub optimal…” which comes off as “Noob! get out of our club…. who let you in here anyway?”)

So… then guys like me, post up “hey… what could we do to change this?” and the only responses we get are angry ‘meta’ players who don’t want things to change, so they can keep their ‘cool kid status’… that way they can have rights to be the authority. So the can have public sanction to talk down to others. And what does this do? It makes all the noobs who looked to you initially decide to try repeatedly to get into your club, they wont try something else, because they spent money on that overpriced zerk gear. And now they feel invested, and changing their mind would be a loss. They cant stand the idea that you don’t need to be a cool kid to be good at this game. And you don’t need to solo Lupi in your underwear to have FUN

We, as a community, need to make it clear that the glorification of these recto-cranialy inverted, circular logic users is hurting the community of long time veteran players who see through their crap. It is also hurting the community of new players who come to this game and look to the ‘meta’ to find out what’s ‘good’.

We need to glorify the talent not the build and the gear. we need to understand that having a group healer does increase dps… because the ‘zerker’ everyman dies all the time! Having one guy sacrifice dps does increase the uptime of everyone else…. 5 “super pros”? no….. 5 regular dudes? yep. definitely.

Does it matter if you do 5000dps vs 2675 dps? no… so long as you are making up the difference making sure that everyone else is doing better. It’s called altruism people.

Does it matter if a dungeon takes 45 min vs 15? NO because were all here to have fun!

Does it matter if we wipe 8 times on Mai Trin? NO! It’s a challenging fight, with good mechanics, and failing on it is keeping you from what again exactly? Your life? Bail! Go live your life! No one is stopping you! If its keeping you from some other part of the game remind yourself that your already playing the game and buckle up.

Ya know what I do when my group is wiping on Mai Trin? I go get a ranger in full zealot gear, clerics trinkets, and “search and rescue”. Then, suddenly, we stop wiping. not cause I’m super good…. but because none of us were good enough without support.

Being good at support is every bit as good at being good at DPS, except that its a job that’s not all about YOU.

So I guess, I don’t know where this rant is going, but I think there are a lot of us who feel the way I feel about the elitist community, and about their volume relative to their size…

I’m sure that the next 100 posts will be short, brainless responses tearing me down, cause I hit way to close to home. But ya know what? I hope that some percentage of them see what they did, and go post a LFG saying all classes welcome, bring support please and watch how the groups that they get change. watch what happens when you have a group with a rabid, a sinister, a zerker, a soldier and a nomad player. Will it clear content faster than the zerker super pro team.?… No. Will it clear faster than a group of every man ’zerkers? Kitten yes it will, and they will have FUN doing it… which is the kitten point!

+1.

I agree with all of your post. I was drawn into a similar argument last week on these forums, wish you’d waded in with your post then!

BrokenGlass.9356:

It all comes down to economy and psychology. I am an expert in neither, but I can use google.

Yup, you aren’t, but then again going by your post all you wanted to do was vent.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Jay Random noob hits 80, and goes kitten , what do I need to become ‘good at this game’ now that I’m at max level? So he hops on the fourms, and checks out youtube… he then idealizes those that he perceives to be great, and becomes a ‘follower’. This same phenomena is why I know who David Beckham is, and I have never sat through a whole game if soccer in my life.

They learn that the ‘only’ way to get good… is to be you. And what happened to your ego? it balloons up like crazy! Is that wrong? NO. Because you have followers. Most folks with a following have an ego.

So now people are to be blamed that others who have not invested the same amount of time into honing their knowledge of the game and/or reflexes try to mimic try to copy them? Okay. I think your issue is more with people not taking the time to enjoy the game but trying to rush to “endgame” yet you project this anger at a minority you feel is responsible because they are efficient.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Then the rest of us, the non-followers, we get upset, because your passing down high skill level play and calling it the only way. You attack everyone who isn’t doing it your way… you come on these forums and chew up and spit out anyone who thinks that your way is “lazy” or “un-fun” or “cheap”, even folks trying to propose alternatives without insult. You spend time chastising people who want to have fun. (when you could be speed running dungeons)

My understanding has always been, play how you want to. I sometimes do normal runs with guildies, sometimes I speedclear content. After over 2k hours of GW2 and playing since launch, things do get stale.

The only one I see here though who tries to impose his view of “how the game should be played” is you (most funny, there is more topics complaining about “meta players or zerker gear being the evil of the world” than there ever was about changes to the meta).

Here is my suggestion, every one stick to their own game and play the way they want with like minded people, and stop telling others how to play. Problem solved.

EDIT: clarification.

Well, you said it yourself further down in your post, you don’t know yourself where your rant is going and it shows. In my opinion, a more compact and better structured post would have helped you bring your points across more easily and invite for a civil discussion.

That said, there are two things I would like to point out:

First, arguing against meta-builds with something entirely subjective such as “fun” is tricky. Meta-builds are proven concepts based on numbers. Fun isn’t. Back when I did my initial dungeon path completions, I didn’t really care about the time and amount of wipes either. I had fun with the (to me) new content. However, after a couple hundred runs or so, completion times and efficiency do matter to me.

Fortunately, there is a very easy solution to this: It’s called using the lfg-interface appropriately. Meaning people should look for like-minded players of similar skill-level, just like we got it with the different leagues in sport. Reading and respecting the “description” of the lfg-interface is essential for this. Looking for a sub lvl-80 yolo fun-run? Looking for the meta-elitist-zerker-SC-run? That’s all fine, but make sure you say so. All of these groups can happily co-exist.

Secondly, please try not to generalize the dungeon community as angry ragers. There has been this recent trend developing on the lfg-interface where uninformed tryhards are putting unnecessarily harsh “meta-group-restrictions” in place. Many of us dungeon veterans just shake our heads over this as well. It really boils down to my first point: Know how to use the lfg-interface appropriately.

Haha, OP, you are perfect I love your “cool kid” theory. It certainly seems like it. What zerkers don’t understand is, that there are many types of players. I will try to make a list:
A) the ones who are trying to do the hard content
– 1. the full zerker elite player
– 2. the full zerker noobs who thing they are the best because they own zerker, even though they lack skill/meta knowledge
– 3. any other spec who is doing elite content their own way – clerics, soldiers, conditioners
B) people who lack the time to farm overpriced zerk, especially runes, sigils and infusions, thus playing with different, less efficient stat combo, even though they would not necessarily die in zerker meta
C) The ones who lack the meta knowledge/gear, and thus doing elite content only rarely
– People with no clear build (they, for example, don’t even understand the concept of build. E.g. – my girlfriend…. my lovely elementalist is glad she can kill some enemies, do her story and immerse herself into that beautiful world [which is sometimes ruined by bugs like missing audio in personal story – can you fix this already, devs?])

This problem is very complex. It is not just the attitude of players. It is also the system of PVE gear itself. It is very very very time consuming for REGULAR players to acquire gold for the most expensive runes like scholar, or strenght. When I drop this rune, I rather sell it! Because it is so freakingly expensive that i can use that gold on something that I like much more.
I really don’t know how to fix this problem. Maybe I would create a chain of challenging quests which would unlock runes/sigils on the whole account. And everybody can then spec his or her toons according to his or her needs. Exactly like in PVP. But I understand that this is not what many players and devs would want.

Anyway, in the end it doesn’t really matter. I just ignore the elitists and run my lvl 49/50 fractals and dungeons with normal non elite people. We succeed almost everytime, and sometimes we fail. I think that is how it is supposed to be. High risk(of time loss), high reward.

… I will probably edit this post later and add some more thoughts xD

Btw!!! IT IS REALLY TRUE that noobs are looking up to zerk elitist as the gods of GW2 xD

Side note> I’m running full ascended/legendary soldier guardian with soldier runes and full condition removal build, and I love it. I play it for almost 2 years now and I don’t think I will ever change it. Why? Because when i play with REGULAR players, they usually need my support. Mai Trin is an excelent example.. People there are usually clueless of what to do, but with my condi removals and guidance, they understand they can’t run away too far and that they have to keep her in lightning AOE until her buff stack is gone. I love the idea that my guardian is really GUARDING them. That is why I love the new meta PVP bunker guardian… finally a guardian who is doing his true job.

But I think it is very sad that meta PVP has only one build which can stand against other builds. And currently metabattle excludes warriors and rangers from meta pvp. That is a big problem, IMO. There is only 8 (9) professions, and somehow it is hard to balance the game so you can play they way you want and be good. It sounded very good in manifesto, but the game failed to deliver this.

I’m a fairly flexible player, if my friends want to spend an hour doing one explorable path then I’m more than willing to do it, but if I join a group that wants to speed clear then I’m up for that too. That being said, I have to point out a few flaws in your rant:

BrokenGlass.9356:

At what point did we start logging on to “clear content as fast as possible”?

At what point did the fun become secondary to the money we can make?

And what the kitten are we making money for? If not to play the game then what?

Your making money from speed running dungeons, to get better gear, to super speed run dungeons…. for…. what?

I can’t speak for everyone, obviously, but if you consider how much it costs to buy materials for ascended and legendary gear, or to buy rare skins from the TP, or to convert gold to gems, then it’s not hard to imagine that there is a great incentive to collect a large quantity of gold.

Ascended and legendary gear are fairly static costs, but that’s untrue for rare skins and gem prices, both which go up fairly rapidly over time.

I often hear, “yeah, but I just don’t wanna spend all night trying to clear this.”

What they are saying is “I’d rather be doing something else with my time.”

Like what? Like playing some other aspect of this game? If you have things going on in your life…. then log off mid run. Really. It’s ok. We’ve all had random’s drop out, and we have a pretty darn good LFG tool…. its fine. You want to go live your life? Do it. You wanna play the game? Please loose this “clear it fast” mentality.

This sounds more like a specific problem regarding illiterate people who join casual groups with the expectation of speed clearing rather than an issue about speed clearing in general. As annoying as that is, do keep in mind the opposite is just as true: if people want to speed clear, don’t join them with the expectation of doing a casual run. Give as much respect as you ask for, right?

These elitists have forgotten that they play a game, and have signed on for a second JOB. They clear as fast as possible without seeing that its all circular… they clear fast to get faster at clearing fast. I wonder… do they get a warm fuzzy sense of accomplishment?

Actually, I’d argue they’re more aware of it being a game than you seem to, because they just log on, play, and then buzz off to do whatever, whereas you’re taking things far too seriously if the length of your rant is any indicator.

“Yeah man, we all like stacked in a corner, and cced the boss so he couldn’t even like hit us and stuff, man…. then we did it again… […]

Y’know, yeah, it’s a rant and not some opinion piece on a respected journal, but like I said above: “Give as much respect as you ask for.” Characterizing speed runners like rejects from Wayne’s World isn’t going to win you any points.

Unless you’re a massive fan of Wayne’s World and are actually being flattering in that characterization, that is. In which case carry on, dude!

I’m sorry to say, that all of you “meta” do it fast, in all ’zerk, link gear on joining, perfect speed runners…. are highly skilled players, who are wrong about why one plays a game at all.

The point is to have fun… its to get online with friends… or PUGs, and to escape into a fantasy world for while.

Yes, having fun is the point of a game. For each individual there are varying definitions of fun. For some people it’s a form of escapism, for others it’s a fantasy-themed Barbie (or Ken) simulator, and for others yet it’s setting personal records and beating them.

Don’t try to redefine other people’s definition of fun to suit your own needs. That’s just as toxic as people telling you how to play the game.

Then the rest of us, the non-followers, we get upset, because your passing down high skill level play and calling it the only way. You attack everyone who isn’t doing it your way… you come on these forums and chew up and spit out anyone who thinks that your way is “lazy” or “un-fun” or “cheap”, even folks trying to propose alternatives without insult. You spend time chastising people who want to have fun. (when you could be speed running dungeons)

I’m not pointing out flaws here, I’m just honestly surprised by this. Does this happen a lot in the dungeon forums? I don’t pay much attention to that section of the forums, which is where I assume this happens because the only time I see chastising on the general discussions forum is in response to anti-meta rants like this one.

I’m sure that the next 100 posts will be short, brainless responses tearing me down, cause I hit way to close to home.

To reiterate: give as much respect as you ask for.

But ya know what? I hope that some percentage of them see what they did, and go post a LFG saying all classes welcome, bring support please and watch how the groups that they get change.

Er, okay, here’s the funny thing: you’re asking people who are in a rush to take their time and read a long rant filled with backhanded insults and unfair assumptions about them to fairly consider what you’re trying to say.

That ain’t gonna happen (on the other hand, 0% is a percentage).

One thing to take into account when talking about meta and speedclearing is that to some people, the dungeons are just a means to an end. To them, the dungeon is the tool used to get that Legendary or those Ascended armor pieces. And let me tell you, if you have to use the same tool to do the same thing dozens or hundreds of times, you’re really, really going to appreciate having the most efficient, most comfortable tool possible.

As for meta builds, in my opinion they are what you get when you take theorycrafting to an extreme. All of the numbers hinge on mathematical, flawless execution. Sadly, that’s about the best that you can get with just theory. If you claim a meta build that is based solely on theory to be the best possible one, you’re obviously doing it wrong. Once you have put that build through the appropriate content (meaning the stuff that you yourself intend the build to be used for), you can think of it as “the best”. But even then, it’s “the best” for one purpose and one purpose only: As a tool.

Trying to look at speedrunners and meta build crafters through the lens of someone who plays the content to enjoy it is inherently flawed. Naturally, the opposite is also true. Two people, each with different goals and values, looking at the same thing are obviously going to see it differently. Both of them can be just as right (or wrong), but the meaning of “right” (or “wrong”) is going to mean different things.

Indeed playing games is about fun.

Different people have fun in different ways.

Ranting about other people having fun, among themselves, in a manner that doesnt match your preferred method of having fun is a bit odd (to say te least).

“Martha just look at those young whippersnappers go fast.”

“Too fast for my blood Gladys.”

“And look how they seem to enjoy it too!”

“Harrumph, well I never!”

“Next thing you know the girls will let their ankles show”

“Oh surely not Gladys! Not even juvenile delinquent teenagers who like to go fast would stoop so low as to show their ankles?!? I declare, I may very well faint!”

Terrrible noob meta zerkers are terrible.

I am pretty happy when a berserker clad person with skill enters any party, is humble enough to at least shut up and only inwardly lament the fact that he lfged for some time and is now still stuck with this group of Soldier/Cleric Noobs, and contributes with DPS and the ability to not go down immediately if targetet by the lvl 40+ fractal Ettin, and happily leaves after a smooth run.

A new player should be clad in Soldier, Cleric or at least Valkyrie (if he is an elementalist) until he has learned how things are done in dungeons or fracs. Then he can still decide if he wants to stay with the more defensive gear or gets all out Berserkers.

How often, while in higher fractals, had I the wish of not raising the 22K AP Berserk guy with the big mouth and instead stomp him with my soldier armor covered boot to put him out of his misery?^^

I’m going to agree with the overall core of the OP’s post. What I mean by that is I entirely agree that the meta zerk players should stop claiming that zerk is the only real way of playing the game. It’s just not true. There are far too many posts saying suggesting that while you CAN complete content using other builds, anything other than the meta is severely sub-optimal. And while technically they may be “sub-optimal” in that they aren’t the mathematically best way of min-maxing a character, that doesn’t mean that they’re significantly worse overall.

As the OP pointed out, new players aren’t necessarily going to have the skill required to pull of a full zerk build without dying constantly. Having a fifth of the party’s dps out for the count a lot of the time means that the group will be doing less overall damage than if the player reduced their dps in order to actually survive the dungeon. It’s fine to suggest to new players on the forums and things that the meta is optimal, but that should absolutely be prefaced with “but only if you can stay alive” which people have a habit of leaving out.

People also fail to mention that while full zerk (or whatever the meta is) is mathematically the optimal way of playing, each individual player may actually do better with a build of their own design that they know inside and out. I could make a character which uses a meta build but that doesn’t mean I’ll do it well, cause I have no intention of learning max dps rotations or might stacking. However I know my valk wearing, staff wielding mutant shatter mesmer back to front so I do better overall using it.

On the other hand though, I recognise that for some people speed-clearing and meta builds may be the way that they want to play the game. Each to their own after all. But if the people who don’t want to play your theory crafted way respect your right to do so, then you should respect our right to not. That is something I feel a lot of people are wanting, to stop getting rude responses to any post which suggests that the meta isn’t for everyone.

Making gold fast is fun. Buying nice things is fun.

Replaying predictably scripted instances (even the loot tables are completely static) … not so much.

That’s all there is, really.

OP claimed in one of his post that he had some zerk gear in his inventory in order to play with “ping zerk gear” parties…while playing condi mesmer. So he’s one of the problem this community has. Use lfg wisely and dont play with people that you dispise that’s all. Playing meta can be fun, but no one says it’s the only way to have some fun

I, for one, don’t really give a kitten what the meta says, I’m having a great time playing my necromancer. However, I don’t really spend a lot of time in dungeons, but when I do, I consider myself very fortunate to be in a guild that lets me bring my necromancer.

Picture is relevant:

I encountered this problem years ago when I pointed out that skipping is insulting to the devs and bad for the game. What I received in response was the most dismissive, arrogant, deceitful, condescending, selfish dribble I had ever seen in an internet community. The only reason elitists have adopted that false “make your own group” argument is because they got tired of being yelled down by other players. Were it not for that, they would still rampage into every thread in the forum to personally insult people who don’t play to their liking. When the forums were more active, it was saddening to see which thread with legitimate complaints will be shouted down as “not a problem” next.

I can understand wanting to push the limits. On occasion, I will take my super-pretendy-fun time and see if I can crack the system. As a personal problem solving challenge. But that rarely extends past the instance. In a gigantic fantasy world with sword and sorcery, I’d hate to find the most efficient way to do something and then do just that. Forever. I’d get bored very quickly. I’d also get existentially exhausted, putting so much time and energy into something so ultimately meaningless.

The good news is, this is all pretty moot at this point. Anet isn’t focusing on dungeons anymore. If they do, the ones they design will probably have measures against the current dungeon meta (gates, long leash distances, locking people into specific arenas, infinitely spawning mobs, AI improvements, meaningful escorts, etc). The community hasn’t reached a point where players will demand necromancers leave the map, and they probably never will.

I enjoy doing 3man fractals with my guild because I enjoy improving the level of my play, I’d hate to still be using the same set of armour after 3 years if the difference between soldier’s and knight’s was just a dodge away.

TL;DR
Message Body length must at least be 15.

I’m sorry, but what is fun exactly about taking 45 minutes to clear an 8 minute dungeon?

You claim that doing things super fast isn’t fun, yet what makes doing them 3-4x slower then they need to be fun?

That just sounds like a waste of time to me, not more fun.

Additionally, we are doing the same dungeons for 3 years. The game hasn’t added any repeatable content for 3 years. Why would we want to spend any more time then we have to there? We do it because it is the best way to get gold, the best way to get dungeon gear and the only way to get the dungeoneer title.

We need that gold so we don’t have to worry about the problems of poor people. Want to try a new build? want to get a new look? Want to try a different class. Well since I didn’t waste all my time doing 50 minute dungeon runs with clerics people I have enough money to get any new look I want. I have enough money to fully gear up a new class to see how they play.

The real question is why do you like taking 30+ minutes to do something that only takes 6-8 minutes?

I read your text, and you are absolutely right!
I also hate the “zerker meta”. Just noobs copy+paste builds and run full zerker, and all in all they can not play their profession correctly.
Often if i go some dungeons in “lf just zerker groups” i just link my ascended zerker gear, but still use my full celestial.
It is no fun for me to clear dungeons asap and stack in corners to instantly burst down anything. I love it to go arah with normal people, not meta playing, no lupi os, no stealth, no speedrun. Just for fun!

Ok. I get it, you don’t like speed clearing and largely, the attitude that comes with it. I can respect that. I’m not a huge fan of meta-elitists, or rather “wannabe” meta-elitists, who stipulate that others have to play a certain way in their group, despite not understanding the finer details of the things. Some of their behaviour is undesirable, but there is undesirable attitudes all over the game and it’s not exclusive to meta-elitists. :P I’d also much rather do things at a more relaxed pace, enjoy the scenery.

But not everybody is like this. People have different tastes.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Why do people behave like this?

At what point did we start logging on to “clear content as fast as possible”?

People are doing the dungeons purely for the rewards. Doing the dungeon isn’t the goal, it’s a means to an end. Speed-clearing dungeons is probably still the best gold per hour.

And it’s always been like that. In any game, in GW1 even. This isn’t a new phenomenon.

BrokenGlass.9356:

At what point did the fun become secondary to the money we can make?

For a lot of people, doing a dungeon at a snail’s pace isn’t fun. Also, there comes a point where you’ve run a dungeon so many times that running it fast (and challenging the group in such a way) is more interesting and exciting than doing a regular run. Meta builds often are “high risk” builds, meaning that you have to know what you’re doing or else you can quite easily wipe.

BrokenGlass.9356:

And what the kitten are we making money for? If not to play the game then what?

Welcome to Fashion Wars 2. People spend huge amounts of gold on legendaries, “psuedo-legendaries”, gem-store items, outfits, skins, ascended armour… There’s always something more to buy. It’s not just how the skin looks, but the satisfaction of finally earning it or crafting it. Got full ascended on your main? Time to start working on how your alts look!
I reckon that fulfilling long-term, self-made goals is what keeps most of the veteran player-base logging in.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Your making money from speed running dungeons, to get better gear, to super speed run dungeons…. for…. what?

See above. Additionally, people are currently trying to stockpile gold and materials for the upcoming expansion. More things to spend our money on there.

My final thoughts:

People who play meta are perfectly entitled to play the game in such a way. What may be fun to you isn’t fun for the entirety of the player base. It’s a “play how you want” game. I’ve found that I can just as easily fill a group with experienced, meta players as I can with an “all welcome” group. If you can’t find an “all welcome” group for the dungeon, it’s easy to make one yourself.

Here’s an interesting take on the thread as a whole. If the thread was the opposite, (“Rant about non-meta players”) can you imagine the kind of responses it would get? Yet the theory is still the same- it’s an exclusive view on the way a particular group play.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I’m sorry, but what is fun exactly about taking 45 minutes to clear an 8 minute dungeon?

You claim that doing things super fast isn’t fun, yet what makes doing them 3-4x slower then they need to be fun?

That just sounds like a waste of time to me, not more fun.

Additionally, we are doing the same dungeons for 3 years. The game hasn’t added any repeatable content for 3 years. Why would we want to spend any more time then we have to there? We do it because it is the best way to get gold, the best way to get dungeon gear and the only way to get the dungeoneer title.

We need that gold so we don’t have to worry about the problems of poor people. Want to try a new build? want to get a new look? Want to try a different class. Well since I didn’t waste all my time doing 50 minute dungeon runs with clerics people I have enough money to get any new look I want. I have enough money to fully gear up a new class to see how they play.

The real question is why do you like taking 30+ minutes to do something that only takes 6-8 minutes?

Lol, 6 compared to 45 minutes? What kind of soldier/cleric gamers do you know? Sorrows Embrace 1 for example will be nowhere near 30 minutes in a group full of soldier equipped toons piloted by children if an experienced dungeon runner is with them in TS.

Yep, people play for different reasons, and that’s fine.

Newer people tend to go for “anything goes” fun runs, older folks tend to go for fast, efficient runs.

Tryhards need to realize that there are people out there who just want to group up and run dungeons with the sole purpose of having fun, not caring about time or efficiency.

One the other hand, these new players need to realize that we’ve been playing the same content for three years. It was fun to “just run” dungeons at one point — but the novelty wore off at least two years ago. Now most just want to get through them, get the gold, and get out. There’s nothing interesting left at this point for a lot of players, which is why so many have left…

tl;dr Read LFG descriptions, find likeminded players, join a guild, be clear about how you want your runs, and just get along.

An anti meta tread? That’s new and original with never seen before ideas. More of that please.

When your choices are clear content as quickly and easily as possible or suffer the bad decisions of the inexperienced running builds that are not only not good but actually detrimental to the group you take the more fun path of quickly and easily. There is no further discussion needed.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I encountered this problem years ago when I pointed out that skipping is insulting to the devs and bad for the game. What I received in response was the most dismissive, arrogant, deceitful, condescending, selfish dribble I had ever seen in an internet community. The only reason elitists have adopted that false “make your own group” argument is because they got tired of being yelled down by other players. Were it not for that, they would still rampage into every thread in the forum to personally insult people who don’t play to their liking. When the forums were more active, it was saddening to see which thread with legitimate complaints will be shouted down as “not a problem” next.

Sounds like you’re very much part of the problem. Judging from your post, what exactly are you doing if not insulting people who don’t play to your liking? The whole “make your own group” argument is not an excuse, it is applying common sense as in grouping like-minded people together and respecting each others preferences.

Unfortunately for this community, for every meta-elitist there is at least one anti-meta-elitist displaying the exact same kind of dismissive behaviour.

Wear what ever gear you want, soldier etc and keep a set of zerker gear in your bags. When people have you link your gear just link them the zerk gear. There’s no dps meter so you will win in that situation.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Your making money from speed running dungeons, to get better gear, to super speed run dungeons…. for…. what?
I often hear, “yeah, but I just don’t wanna spend all night trying to clear this.”
What they are saying is “I’d rather be doing something else with my time.”
Like what? Like playing some other aspect of this game? If you have things going on in your life…. then log off mid run. Really. It’s ok

You got really close to answering your own question, but then for some reason shyed away from it.

People who speedrun dungeons have done that content multiple times and are probably sick of hearing the story and character interactions over and over, fighting the same fights over and over, etc.

The dungeon is still lucrative though, so theyll grind it for gold.

Which they’ll use to play the game elsewhere, and have fun. There’s wvw, guild trains, market trading and the like.

Why you didnt draw that conclusion I don’t know.

Time for a constructive discussion made through bullet point lines…

- majority of anti-meta threads are made by persons that consider themselves entitled in a particular way ( I do not exclusive rewards, I do not want to play as zerker, I do not I do not etc)

- I have never seen an anti-meta thread without name calling, but the “evil” side is the hardcore crowd

- people are having fun in game either by roleplaying, casual runs or speed runs.

- respect is a 2-way street. respect the LFG description and you will be respected back.
- the core mechanic of Guild Wars 2 allows any player with any setup at any time to be able to form their own parties that will successfully complete the content

- usually this means meeting like minded people who may even become your best in-game buddies

- do not judge a community based on its extremists, usually very vocal

- i see 4 types of players in game : the casuals, the hardcore elite, the wanna-be and the pro

- out of these types, the wanna-be are among both camps of hardcore and casual players alike: very vocal, tend to be aggressive, entitled and more importantly hypocrites.

- best way to deal with these persons is complete ignore time

- I strongly believe that with detailed communication and proper explanations of terms (zerk, meta, viable, optimal etc) along side mutual respect (read the LFG that you are joining, understand that if you do not find it fun someone else may) a fruitful collaboration can be made between the hardcore and the casual communities, for the better of both

- the type of game play you desire is one click away only

- nothing destroyed the game. As opposed to other MMOs that force you in a certain team composition/skill setup/gear setup etc or you won’t succeed at all, Guild Wars 2 provides the tools necessary to succeed with any combination of gear, traits etc, in any content of the game, the difference usually being reduced to time of completion

- some people care about each second of game play some do not

- understanding that just because we do not like a play-style in a product that allows any play style does not mean a whole community should be negatively labeled, does not mean the game is destroyed, does not mean you are somehow forced to play that certain play-style

- knowing all this but joining parties you do not fit in, blaming others, labeling a community based on its extremists, lack of respect, demanding of certain “fun” definitions etc etc makes any argument you may or may not have irrelevant, creates hypocrisy, tension between the two parties and results in negative stereotyping on both sides.

Do not be an extremist. I speed run. I am having fun. I am elite. I am proud. Do not be hypocrite. Respect is a two way street. Read LFG before joining. Find like-minded people, the game permits. Jealousy towards other play-styles is a no-go in my book. Do not label a community based on a vocal negative minority. Have fun. Enjoy the game.

Have a nice day.

Lux Dominatoris.3941:

Do not be an extremist. I speed run. I am having fun. I am elite. I am proud. Do not be hypocrite. Respect is a two way street. Read LFG before joining. Find like-minded people, the game permits. Jealousy towards other play-styles is a no-go in my book. Do not label a community based on a vocal negative minority. Have fun. Enjoy the game.

Have a nice day.

This is a valid point too. there are some people that speedrun simply because the speedrun in itself is fun.

People beat Super Mario 64 in minutes for fun; if you ask them to slow down and play the game normally so they can have fun, they’d probably laugh at you.

I guess the same rule applies here. Any playstyle that falls within the boundaries of ToS is acceptable play.

Basically these threads always come down to one thing.

The anti-meta crowd expecting the meta crowd to have to play non-meta but can’t comprehend that with the current system they don’t have to play meta they just have to form their own groups.

Form your own group, and play how you want and how you perceive the game to be fun.

The rest of us will be playing the meta and having our own kind of fun.

Again, if you don’t follow the Meta due to any reason just link zerk gear and carry on using your valk or clerics. The best part is you can be in speed runs, make the fast profits, NOBODY will know, and it kind of sticks it to the zerker meta crowd. It’s a total win ROFL

Torolan.5816:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I’m sorry, but what is fun exactly about taking 45 minutes to clear an 8 minute dungeon?

You claim that doing things super fast isn’t fun, yet what makes doing them 3-4x slower then they need to be fun?

That just sounds like a waste of time to me, not more fun.

Additionally, we are doing the same dungeons for 3 years. The game hasn’t added any repeatable content for 3 years. Why would we want to spend any more time then we have to there? We do it because it is the best way to get gold, the best way to get dungeon gear and the only way to get the dungeoneer title.

We need that gold so we don’t have to worry about the problems of poor people. Want to try a new build? want to get a new look? Want to try a different class. Well since I didn’t waste all my time doing 50 minute dungeon runs with clerics people I have enough money to get any new look I want. I have enough money to fully gear up a new class to see how they play.

The real question is why do you like taking 30+ minutes to do something that only takes 6-8 minutes?

Lol, 6 compared to 45 minutes? What kind of soldier/cleric gamers do you know? Sorrows Embrace 1 for example will be nowhere near 30 minutes in a group full of soldier equipped toons piloted by children if an experienced dungeon runner is with them in TS.

See now we quickly move into the false comparison. We now are comparing an average zerker pug to a fully organized solders group with TS. A full speedrun zerker organized group with TS can clear SE 1 in 3.5 minutes. You also use soldiers gear (moderately high dps set) instead of clerics geared players like I mentioned.

I’m talking average zerker group vs average “everyone welcome” group. Typically in the non-zerker everyone welcome group (which I run once or twice a week to help people learn) I find it takes 20-45 minutes for a typical run. People get lost, people fall into unrezzable spots, we wipe on a boss, we can’t stand on switches, etc. The time varies significantly with each group.

In the typical “P1 80’s, exp, zerk, fast” groups that I join, a typical run takes 6-12 minutes. I suspect all the runs over 10 minutes are when we have a person who thinks they can wear clerics gear in a zerker run and no one will notice it is taking longer (we do, but there is nothing we can do about it unfortunately).

I find if I impose AP restrictions of 10k+ then the run times drop by an additional 1-2 minutes on average.

Zalavaaris.5329:

Again, if you don’t follow the Meta due to any reason just link zerk gear and carry on using your valk or clerics. The best part is you can be in speed runs, make the fast profits, NOBODY will know, and it kind of sticks it to the zerker meta crowd. It’s a total win ROFL

I don’t even…

Zalavaaris.5329:

Again, if you don’t follow the Meta due to any reason just link zerk gear and carry on using your valk or clerics. The best part is you can be in speed runs, make the fast profits, NOBODY will know, and it kind of sticks it to the zerker meta crowd. It’s a total win ROFL

So your solution to the non-existent zerker problem is to be a jerk and ruin other peoples days because you can’t be bothered to type “LFG <dungeon> <path> all are welcome”? If the meta crowd is such a minority like you people make it out to be you’ll fill up really fast right?

Dinks.2478:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Again, if you don’t follow the Meta due to any reason just link zerk gear and carry on using your valk or clerics. The best part is you can be in speed runs, make the fast profits, NOBODY will know, and it kind of sticks it to the zerker meta crowd. It’s a total win ROFL

So your solution to the non-existent zerker problem is to be a jerk and ruin other peoples days because you can’t be bothered to type “LFG <dungeon> <path> all are welcome”? If the meta crowd is such a minority like you people make it out to be you’ll fill up really fast right?

Yep… that’s pretty much the case. After being cursed at and ridiculed for the gear (usually soldier or valk) or build I choose to run when in reality it adds barely anytime (because I’ve played since bwes so I know what I’m doing) I’m pretty sick of those people. It’s almost fun to do it out of spite at this point. It’s going to be even BETTER in HOT because I can be a Reaper with over 100% critical and Zerker amounts of power and crit dmg from valk gear.

I find meta peeps amusing. Gives me a reason to even play.

In WvW, there is this guy always going on and on in TS with “big symbols? Who use that? Noooooob lolololol”. I use it because I always run my braindead zerger Guardian as full Nomad, tons of constant AoE healing so meh, who cares. I picked the trait and havent bothered changing it.

But he obviously does care. So I make it my personal task to always drop my symbol on him.

True story.

Dawdler.8521:

I find meta peeps amusing. Gives me a reason to even play.

In WvW, there is this guy always going on and on in TS with “big symbols? Who use that? Noooooob lolololol”. I use it because I always run my braindead zerger Guardian as full Nomad, tons of constant AoE healing so meh, who cares. I picked the trait and havent bothered changing it.

But he obviously does care. So I make it my personal task to always drop my symbol on him.

True story.

ROFL what’s he gonna do? Kick you out of wvw Lol

The OP identifies all the reasons why there is a meta, which come down to human nature: after the newness wears off, people will tend towards the easiest semi-enjoyable content with the highest chance of special loot or highest earnings rate.

Then the OP spends half a page to complain about it.

ANet can’t change human nature. Players are always going to find a meta faster than any company can rebalance the game.

Also glaring is how relatively accessible berserker is compared to zealot and celestial gear. For zealots you need sprockets, which I intended to sell but because my thief and elementalist want some healing power and some celestial for conditions and survivability since ferocity increases crit damage, which is a process that relies on RNG.

The accessibility of berserker compared to zealot and celestial suggests that zealot and celestial are meant to be superior, or at least mixed with berzerker (like I intend) than full berserker.

I know this post strictly speaks of PvE but in PvP everyone expects a thief to wear full berzerker, so why not experiment with soldier? Has anyone even bothered trying or does everyone just assume berzerker is optimal?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I’m sorry, but what is fun exactly about taking 45 minutes to clear an 8 minute dungeon?

You are comparing one extreme to another extreme.

A competent non-meta team versus a competent meta team will have close enough completion times for my taste. We’re talking 8min completion versus 12min completion.

Your times are comparing a pre-made speedrun group with a bunch of noob PUGs that have never run the path before.

There is such a thing as being experienced and not meta.

BrokenGlass.9356:

It all comes down to economy and psychology. I am an expert in neither, but I can use google.

Firstly, the meta is a response to the way in which the game is set up… lots of magical one shots, active mitigation, the lack of a ‘holy’ trinity. There are no ‘defined and necessary’ roles to balance around, beyond DPS. This makes all defensive stats obsolete once your own personal skill cap is raised to a certain point.

Why do people behave like this?

At what point did we start logging on to “clear content as fast as possible”?

At what point did the fun become secondary to the money we can make?

And what the kitten are we making money for? If not to play the game then what?

Your making money from speed running dungeons, to get better gear, to super speed run dungeons…. for…. what?

I often hear, “yeah, but I just don’t wanna spend all night trying to clear this.”

What they are saying is “I’d rather be doing something else with my time.”

Like what? Like playing some other aspect of this game? If you have things going on in your life…. then log off mid run. Really. It’s ok. We’ve all had random’s drop out, and we have a pretty darn good LFG tool…. its fine. You want to go live your life? Do it. You wanna play the game? Please loose this “clear it fast” mentality.

We all get to max level pretty quickly, and now, due to tomes of knowledge, writs of xp, crafting xp (which is easily fueled by gems and gold)… one can get to 80 in a week of “hobby time”

Is this a bad thing? Nope.

But what it does do is leave some people relatively clueless about how their class works in group content. Something that was worked around by giving us a tiered system of progressively higher leveled group content.

However that content, has been taken over by elitists.

These elitists have forgotten that they play a game, and have signed on for a second JOB. They clear as fast as possible without seeing that its all circular… they clear fast to get faster at clearing fast. I wonder… do they get a warm fuzzy sense of accomplishment?

“Yeah man, we all like stacked in a corner, and cced the boss so he couldn’t even like hit us and stuff, man…. then we did it again… 6 rimes in a row, man!… yea, man just under 12 gold…. I’m a super trump-rich, man.”

“Oh… err, what are you gonna do with that gold?”

“Well, man I’m like gonna buy the parts to make like, some ascended gear man! You like gotta have the best gear, man… that’s, like, what you do on games like this right, man?”

“Well…what are you gonna do when that’s done… and you have your skins… and your legendries, and your fifteen 5000 gold dyes?”

" I’m, like, gonna either quit, man, or start another toon man.. that’s just what you do. Right. man?"

“NO, It isn’t.”

I’m sorry to say, that all of you “meta” do it fast, in all ’zerk, link gear on joining, perfect speed runners…. are highly skilled players, who are wrong about why one plays a game at all.

The point is to have fun… its to get online with friends… or PUGs, and to escape into a fantasy world for while.

And ya know what? I have kittenloads of fun on this game. This game is kitten great! And I know you agree with me. If you don’t… and your wasting your life trolling a forum of a game that you think is kitten…. Then, I feel genuinely sorry for you. Go log into facebook or something.

And ya know what, ‘meta’ players? You are the loud minority.

Let me tell you how you got that way. Noobs.

I’m not saying that you are noobs… not at all actually. I’m saying that noobs look up to you.

Jay Random noob hits 80, and goes kitten , what do I need to become ‘good at this game’ now that I’m at max level? So he hops on the fourms, and checks out youtube… he then idealizes those that he perceives to be great, and becomes a ‘follower’. This same phenomena is why I know who David Beckham is, and I have never sat through a whole game if soccer in my life.

They learn that the ‘only’ way to get good… is to be you. And what happened to your ego? it balloons up like crazy! Is that wrong? NO. Because you have followers. Most folks with a following have an ego.

So… these ‘noobs’ watch these videos and take the advice on this forum, and pop onto metabattle, and they go and spend hard earned gold and sometimes real money getting hugely overpriced zerk gear… then the get in random pugs, and the DIE REPEATEDLY. Why? Because doing what the ‘meta’ does takes lots of skill. And you need voicechat and regular practice, repeated times trying to clear content until you get it down pat. (And if it came easy for you, congratulations on your natural aptitude, which not all of us have.)

Then the rest of us, the non-followers, we get upset, because your passing down high skill level play and calling it the only way. You attack everyone who isn’t doing it your way… you come on these forums and chew up and spit out anyone who thinks that your way is “lazy” or “un-fun” or “cheap”, even folks trying to propose alternatives without insult. You spend time chastising people who want to have fun. (when you could be speed running dungeons)

And you know what? It makes having fun harder.

The more you speak up about how those of us in nomad gear, or sentinels, or settlers, or hell… even rampager’s, are all NOOBS. (Some of the kinder of your ilk will point out that, you can “play what you want, even though its sub optimal…” which comes off as “Noob! get out of our club…. who let you in here anyway?”)

So… then guys like me, post up “hey… what could we do to change this?” and the only responses we get are angry ‘meta’ players who don’t want things to change, so they can keep their ‘cool kid status’… that way they can have rights to be the authority. So the can have public sanction to talk down to others. And what does this do? It makes all the noobs who looked to you initially decide to try repeatedly to get into your club, they wont try something else, because they spent money on that overpriced zerk gear. And now they feel invested, and changing their mind would be a loss. They cant stand the idea that you don’t need to be a cool kid to be good at this game. And you don’t need to solo Lupi in your underwear to have FUN

We, as a community, need to make it clear that the glorification of these recto-cranialy inverted, circular logic users is hurting the community of long time veteran players who see through their crap. It is also hurting the community of new players who come to this game and look to the ‘meta’ to find out what’s ‘good’.

We need to glorify the talent not the build and the gear. we need to understand that having a group healer does increase dps… because the ‘zerker’ everyman dies all the time! Having one guy sacrifice dps does increase the uptime of everyone else…. 5 “super pros”? no….. 5 regular dudes? yep. definitely.

Does it matter if you do 5000dps vs 2675 dps? no… so long as you are making up the difference making sure that everyone else is doing better. It’s called altruism people.

Does it matter if a dungeon takes 45 min vs 15? NO because were all here to have fun!

Does it matter if we wipe 8 times on Mai Trin? NO! It’s a challenging fight, with good mechanics, and failing on it is keeping you from what again exactly? Your life? Bail! Go live your life! No one is stopping you! If its keeping you from some other part of the game remind yourself that your already playing the game and buckle up.

Ya know what I do when my group is wiping on Mai Trin? I go get a ranger in full zealot gear, clerics trinkets, and “search and rescue”. Then, suddenly, we stop wiping. not cause I’m super good…. but because none of us were good enough without support.

Being good at support is every bit as good at being good at DPS, except that its a job that’s not all about YOU.

So I guess, I don’t know where this rant is going, but I think there are a lot of us who feel the way I feel about the elitist community, and about their volume relative to their size…

I’m sure that the next 100 posts will be short, brainless responses tearing me down, cause I hit way to close to home. But ya know what? I hope that some percentage of them see what they did, and go post a LFG saying all classes welcome, bring support please and watch how the groups that they get change. watch what happens when you have a group with a rabid, a sinister, a zerker, a soldier and a nomad player. Will it clear content faster than the zerker super pro team.?… No. Will it clear faster than a group of every man ’zerkers? Kitten yes it will, and they will have FUN doing it… which is the kitten point!

perfectly stated

a few days ago, my experimental Necro build (built with no condition or crit dmg. nothing but power, vit, and toughness) got in a party for fractals

the fractal party had 3 people, 2 80s and 1 67.

so we have 4/5 people
and one is lower level.

we go in anyway.

i’m used to fractals, but these 3 have never run it. so i walk them through it.

the fractal takes 3x longer than any run i’ve ever done in fractals before.
and my necro found herself alone fighting the boss a few times.

but you know what?
i LOVED it. my build worked, the 3 people were fun and nice. we had a great time.

and the fractals we got were NOT easy for 4 people with 1 lv 67.
several times i found myself thinking “we don’t have enough dmg/people to finish this boss”

but i shut up and went at it anyway.

i had more fun with those 3 and was more challenged by that fractal run than ANYTHING i’ve done in the past 2 years!

i LOVED it.

and now, when i see speed runs. i immediatly ignore them. cause i consider those runs greedy with no fun.

when i see casual runs, i make them priority. and i don’t mind if people bring low level characters.

it adds challenge, and my necro is designed to take hits and hold my team together.
it doesn’t have dmg. but good luck killing it (3.2k defense, 35k hp, 26k shroud, and 2.5k power……..4% crit chance. 0 condition dmg)

i now say kitten meta.
i’ll take a build i consider fun, i’ll go with any number of people.

cause fun beats speed and profit.

Zalavaaris.5329:

Dinks.2478:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Again, if you don’t follow the Meta due to any reason just link zerk gear and carry on using your valk or clerics. The best part is you can be in speed runs, make the fast profits, NOBODY will know, and it kind of sticks it to the zerker meta crowd. It’s a total win ROFL

So your solution to the non-existent zerker problem is to be a jerk and ruin other peoples days because you can’t be bothered to type “LFG <dungeon> <path> all are welcome”? If the meta crowd is such a minority like you people make it out to be you’ll fill up really fast right?

Yep… that’s pretty much the case. After being cursed at and ridiculed for the gear (usually soldier or valk) or build I choose to run when in reality it adds barely anytime (because I’ve played since bwes so I know what I’m doing) I’m pretty sick of those people. It’s almost fun to do it out of spite at this point. It’s going to be even BETTER in HOT because I can be a Reaper with over 100% critical and Zerker amounts of power and crit dmg from valk gear.

So, you’re the problem with this game. People like you who would rather ruin the fun of others than just play with like-minded individuals. I hope you get banned.

Dawdler.8521:

I find meta peeps amusing. Gives me a reason to even play.

In WvW, there is this guy always going on and on in TS with “big symbols? Who use that? Noooooob lolololol”. I use it because I always run my braindead zerger Guardian as full Nomad, tons of constant AoE healing so meh, who cares. I picked the trait and havent bothered changing it.

But he obviously does care. So I make it my personal task to always drop my symbol on him.

True story.

I’m not sure what your full nomads Guardian has to do with this PvE meta conversation.

sighhhhhhhhhhhh. This game really need a better lfg to separated those two groups. It’s becoming annoying more than anything else.

Dinks.2478:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Dinks.2478:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Again, if you don’t follow the Meta due to any reason just link zerk gear and carry on using your valk or clerics. The best part is you can be in speed runs, make the fast profits, NOBODY will know, and it kind of sticks it to the zerker meta crowd. It’s a total win ROFL

So your solution to the non-existent zerker problem is to be a jerk and ruin other peoples days because you can’t be bothered to type “LFG <dungeon> <path> all are welcome”? If the meta crowd is such a minority like you people make it out to be you’ll fill up really fast right?

Yep… that’s pretty much the case. After being cursed at and ridiculed for the gear (usually soldier or valk) or build I choose to run when in reality it adds barely anytime (because I’ve played since bwes so I know what I’m doing) I’m pretty sick of those people. It’s almost fun to do it out of spite at this point. It’s going to be even BETTER in HOT because I can be a Reaper with over 100% critical and Zerker amounts of power and crit dmg from valk gear.

So, you’re the problem with this game. People like you who would rather ruin the fun of others than just play with like-minded individuals. I hope you get banned.

Dawdler.8521:

I find meta peeps amusing. Gives me a reason to even play.

In WvW, there is this guy always going on and on in TS with “big symbols? Who use that? Noooooob lolololol”. I use it because I always run my braindead zerger Guardian as full Nomad, tons of constant AoE healing so meh, who cares. I picked the trait and havent bothered changing it.

But he obviously does care. So I make it my personal task to always drop my symbol on him.

True story.

I’m not sure what your full nomads Guardian has to do with this PvE meta conversation.

See you believing I’m the problem makes you the problem. Guess what… I dont wipe our groups, I use the strats, I do everything a good dungeon runner should. But I use my own gear choices like the game intends. And you what? Our times are still fast with me in soldier gear. I get away with it because nobody notices…. nobodies fun is ruined and i’ve got a few people on my friends list now because they have seen me play. You can’t pull off what I do if you’re a bad player. So yea….. ban me ROFL

ZudetGambeous.9573:

See now we quickly move into the false comparison. We now are comparing an average zerker pug to a fully organized solders group with TS. A full speedrun zerker organized group with TS can clear SE 1 in 3.5 minutes. You also use soldiers gear (moderately high dps set) instead of clerics geared players like I mentioned.

I’m talking average zerker group vs average “everyone welcome” group. Typically in the non-zerker everyone welcome group (which I run once or twice a week to help people learn) I find it takes 20-45 minutes for a typical run. People get lost, people fall into unrezzable spots, we wipe on a boss, we can’t stand on switches, etc. The time varies significantly with each group.

In the typical “P1 80’s, exp, zerk, fast” groups that I join, a typical run takes 6-12 minutes. I suspect all the runs over 10 minutes are when we have a person who thinks they can wear clerics gear in a zerker run and no one will notice it is taking longer (we do, but there is nothing we can do about it unfortunately).

I find if I impose AP restrictions of 10k+ then the run times drop by an additional 1-2 minutes on average.

I have made other experiences. While some Zerker group runs went smooth and in no time at all as you say, i came into random zerker groups that were a bloody mess from start to finish. And no, it wasn´t because my Soldier Guard did not contribute to the damage, 2 out of 4 people are mostly already downstead after the WoR goes down and the three Golems come in swinging. What begins then is a really nervewracking war of attrition where one by one, single golems go down in miserable 6+ tries.

And that is a dungeon the common pug mnages most easily, I have also been in runs for AC 3 with bloody and lengthy battles already erupting with the giant spider.

So my conclusion is: It´s not mainly gear that makes runs easy or hard or quick and drawn out, it´s people that make runs easy or hard or quick and drawn out^^

I don’t know why I bother with these conversations. Nothing but children going on about how they purposely spite people who want to play differently than them. Why anet doesn’t ban these trolls is beyond me.

Dinks.2478:

I don’t know why I bother with these conversations. Nothing but children going on about how they purposely spite people who want to play differently than them. Why anet doesn’t ban these trolls is beyond me.

Choosing to take less precision and instead taking vitality while still contributing to a speedy clear =/= griefing

That mentality thinking that just a slight difference in gear is completely throwing off the group and obviously the cause for any problems with the run is ruining this game and dividing this community. You should be ashamed of yourself if you love this game

Dinks.2478:

I don’t know why I bother with these conversations. Nothing but children going on about how they purposely spite people who want to play differently than them. Why anet doesn’t ban these trolls is beyond me.

To be honest man. I’m super annoyed at what Zalavaaris.5329 say, but he’s kind of right. He completly lack respect for the group that specifically ask for meta, but one guy in soldier or cleric if he do his job decently, won’t affect much the dungeon. People that run meta don’t have that high dps anyway. In pugs they don’t run food, utility, they rarely have perma 25 of vulnerability, they leave the icebow on the ground, don’t deep freeze properly, have poor rotation, leave the warrior alone so one banner is left behind, etc. Just by all that, the dps of the group will vary more than one guy using soldier. So in the end people don’t notice.

If i’m in a guild group and one of use is in soldier, now that will show. Or if one guy is in soldier and the 4 other guys are bad or have bad build, then it will show. But for the vast majority, it won’t make a difference. That’s why I never bother with asking zerker or meta.

Again, that’s a complete lack of respect for other players on his part, but he’s right that he doesn’t make his group suffer. They just never notice it.

I can’t completely skip the fact that the OP is being very hypocritical in his approach to this issue, especially with the phrasing of his argument. But, I’ll leave it at that, it’s not what I want to focus on, it doesn’t get us anywhere.

What I want to say though, is the people who are focused on quick completion of dungeons through the LFG are no different than the people who join up in a chest farm for SW. Some people are more focused on the finish line than the journey. They like the shinies more than the play. Nothing wrong with that though, people enjoy different things. I have my goals and shinies I want as well, as I think most players do.

There’s nothing wrong with different goals, there is something wrong with being a jerk though, but we get that on both sides of this argument.

Personally I enjoy my Glass builds (zerk/assassin/sinister mainly, rampager just underperforms IMO, so I don’t use it usually). I find the increased risk and reward fun. But, then I join unlabeled or parties with silly labels like “must wear pink”. I find the company in those parties to generally be more fun and relaxed which is more my play style even if I enjoy the more meta builds. And I do like a smooth quick run now and then, just I find it a bit boring when I’m doing it regularly is all. Everyone has their preferences, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Thaddeus.4891:

Dinks.2478:

I don’t know why I bother with these conversations. Nothing but children going on about how they purposely spite people who want to play differently than them. Why anet doesn’t ban these trolls is beyond me.

To be honest man. I’m super annoyed at what Zalavaaris.5329 say, but he’s kind of right. He completly lack respect for the group that specifically ask for meta, but one guy in soldier or cleric if he do his job decently, won’t affect much the dungeon. People that run meta don’t have that high dps anyway. In pugs they don’t run food, utility, they rarely have perma 25 of vulnerability, they leave the icebow on the ground, don’t deep freeze properly, have poor rotation, leave the warrior alone so one banner is left behind, etc. Just by all that, the dps of the group will vary more than one guy using soldier. So in the end people don’t notice.

If i’m in a guild group and one of use is in soldier, now that will show. Or if one guy is in soldier and the 4 other guys are bad or have bad build, then it will show. But for the vast majority, it won’t make a difference. That’s why I never bother with asking zerker or meta.

Again, that’s a complete lack of respect for other players on his part, but he’s right that he doesn’t make his group suffer. They just never notice it.

I run zerk with guild groups, I run soldier or valk in pugs to prove a point. A lot of times the groups will say hey good run, or good time and at the end of the run. Then I’ll say oh hey I’ve been in soldiers the entire time. You know how people usually react? Wow…. a necro in soldier gear doing that well? What ever we will invite you to future groups anyway. Know what I do then? Run zerker

Thanks for understanding my point

Slowing down a meta speedrun even a little bit when you know the intention of the group instead of just making your own anybody welcome group is spiteful, trolling, griefing, and I would even go as far as to say LFG abuse.

You think they don’t notice because they’re too polite to complain. But you always notice when your times are off, even if its just a few seconds.

Now, with all of that aside. If you hate Zerker meta so bad why do you want to ride on the coattails of their dungeon runs? Join an anybody welcome LFG and have fun just playing the game. Since that is apparently your goal right? No, you have to ride the coattails of the zerker metas speedruns because even you don’t want to spend 40 minutes doing the same dungeons over and over.