Guild Wars 2

I’d like to preface this thread a bit by saying I am not trolling. I am not trying to elicit anger or extreme reactions. What I would like to do is express concerns and see if anyone echos them. If I am alone in these, well, I suppose I shall once again brave the barren wastes, looking for an MMO that suits what I want in a game. If I am not alone, perhaps we could get some feedback from ANET about these concerns.

I am a dungeoneer. I greatly enjoy dungeon running and organized content. That being said, I’ve won. I’ve beaten every dungeon and gotten down to as far as fractals interest me. I participate in end game content and “living story” when I can, but here’s my concern… What am I reaching for now? I’ve hit level 80, I’ve explored the majority of the world, I’ve begun working on some ascended gear, but… What’s the point? I have no interest in going deeper in to fractals. I have no interest in making MY damage output a slightly higher percentage of the overall damage output on events. There’s nothing more to reach and strive for, except maybe WvW, which really only provides a meta benefit to PvE (and I’m not a PvP player, so I don’t like WvW for WvW’s sake.)

Are there going to be more dungeons? Should there be? Am I alone in wanting more consistent content? Yes, living stories have individual dungeons (that go away) and you are focused on the living story more than dungeoneering, but is there any intention at all to set a new bar for us to reach for? I feel like I’ve beaten Guild Wars 2, and while yes, I can explore some extra content, there’s nothing more for me to strive for.

If the intention is to not set that bar any higher, but to just give us more and more living story events… I think I may be done. I am not threatening or giving ultimatums, but to me, the point of a video game is trying to get better, to improve the character, to make more progress. I’m not making progress in GW2. I’m watching filler episodes.

So Arena Net, fellow players, am I alone in these concerns? Does anyone else wish the bar could occasionally be moved up once in a while? Will there be new, harder dungeons? Or is it time for me to move on?

Shallow character progression has from the start been a very weak point for GW2. And it seems you have given in more of a fair shake than most.

There’s no reason they couldn’t provide consistent group content in instances so that teams could have ongoing challenges… Tequatl would have been a great place to start. But they seem to be stuck on the idea that “everyone” is the team, but as you witnessed, that leads to stale progressions and mushy character progression.

You are not alone…

This all ties into how is ANet working to retain players. For me, I’d be all for raising the bar. It think they just did with the Teq update, which by all reports is hard.

I think dungeons could be made harder too. However, instead of making the game harder in general, they have elected vertical gear progression, which makes the game easier. Since I think that ANet is savvy enough to realize that if they suddenly toughen up the content so soon after releasing ascended weapons people will scream gear grind. Personally, I would have much preferred harder content with the same gear.

I would not expect anything new or more difficult for at least 3 months (dungeons only, world bosses are currently getting revamped).

Edit: Although the twilight assault may be a revamp to twilight arbor so I may be completely wrong.

TooBz.3065:

….

Around 40 threads were made because people thought ta F/U was hard, it’s probably going to get revamped, and honestly, I hope anet takes a long and good look at dungeons because a lot of stuff needs to be fixed/changed.
Also, it’d be nice if they decreased the HP of elite mobs in some dungeons (like arah) and increased the damage, for example make them do 50% more damage and have 30% less hp, that way the encounter is more fun than it is tedious.

I think what your trying to say op is there is no end game content. I have to agree I have gotten my legendary. I have my dungeon master from beating ever single dungeon in the game. I have a ascended weapon that I recently crafted. I also have a fractals level high enough to access all rewards. There is nothing left in the game other then my friends and guild.

This current living story content does feel like fillers. The story line with Scarlet feel’s like a bleach filler arc. What I mean by that is you watch it just cause its something. In the end you know it has nothing to do with the story and will have almost no character progression.

I think about the only thing Anet can do at this point is release a expansion and work on some decent permanent end game content. I think a new dungeon smiler to Arah needs to be release ever 3-4 months. They also need to look into some real instance raiding that will keep people in the game longer.

They also need to take a long hard look at farming. Personally I find the only way’s to make money in the game are as follows

Play the Auction house
Play the Mystic forge
Buy Gem’s Convert them to Gold
Dungeon grind

There is not really any great way to grind money or mats with the diminishing returns system the game has. There is no way to craft for money either.

You are not alone, I’m not even much of a dungeon player but the fact that both LS dungeon were temp and didnt stay permanently and with the full dungeon treatment is a shame (I mean with a set of armor/weapons and other buyables, several explorable paths).

Too bad they are making those two into fractals, they could’ve been a great addition to the dungeon pool. (I guess it’s better then the orginally planned “nothing, they are gone now”)

I like dungeons, I just don’t care for instanced dungeons all that much. They need to make some public dungeons, real dungeons, dark and deep, quite hard and not meant for solo players. Huge underground complexes with no way to fast travel though it all.

What you describe is mostly multi-player game stuff, but this is an mmo, or should be. Yes, I tire of multi-player games rather quickly (I didn’t even play gw1 for very long). I play mmo’s for mmo content, that means lots of people in the same area doing generally the same stuff I am. Been playing mmo’s for some 16 years (MUD’s before that), I don’t tire of it, but yes many-many multi-player games have come and gone… or came and went heh. imo the less multi-player content this game has (or solo), the better.

I hate dungeons and like other thousands I bought this game because it promised I’d never have to step into one ever again! That being said even the dungeons aren’t where they should be when they made the shift in Nov 2012. They should have immediately come out with a LFG tool, immediately revamped the combat system to allow for their own trinity and immediately made it possible for condition damage and support to function properly and have meaning inside these dungeons. We’ve told them how to fix it, we’ve given them examples, even history has given them valid examples on how to fix these basic problems every other mmo has had to go thru in it’s first year. They simply aren’t listening imo.

tigirius.9014:

I hate dungeons and like other thousands I bought this game because it promised I’d never have to step into one ever again! That being said even the dungeons aren’t where they should be when they made the shift in Nov 2012. They should have immediately come out with a LFG tool, immediately revamped the combat system to allow for their own trinity and immediately made it possible for condition damage and support to function properly and have meaning inside these dungeons. We’ve told them how to fix it, we’ve given them examples, even history has given them valid examples on how to fix these basic problems every other mmo has had to go thru in it’s first year. They simply aren’t listening imo.

The only way for them to make support builds viable is by cancelling evade, even then it wouldn’t be so viable.

This game needs more dungeons – yes – more variety – new permanent dungeon content added into the game.

Do the dungeons need to be harder ? no.
For an experienced well geared level 80 player that’s done the runs dozens of times ( myself included ) the content provided by our current dungeons appears trivial at best BUT – for new players that don’t have the gear or the level it is by no means easy.
Go back to AC – with a party of players wearing yellows and see what happens.

This game desperately needs something GW1 had – Hard Mode.
Same dungeons – new spin on things. Hell – they’ve even done it in GW2 with SAB’s Tribulation Mode.
Why can’t dungeons have that? A mode that’s FAR more rewarding but that requires absolute perfection in planning and execution. To those who nail it down – rewards in from of gold – achievements and bragging rights would keep the incentive to do it up. Maybe unique tokens for unique skins. Maybe unique drops.

The possibilities are many – and all that without disturbing or changing the game’s current content.

Also

I like dungeons, I just don’t care for instanced dungeons all that much. They need to make some public dungeons, real dungeons, dark and deep, quite hard and not meant for solo players. Huge underground complexes with no way to fast travel though it all.

This is a great idea. Bigger dungeons – scarier places – places you need your teammates to survive – sort of like Arah but bigger and scarier. And deadlier.

I agree it needs more dungeons. I would have liked if the living world dungeons were permanent. I run dungeons almost daily. So the end game content is lacking. There needs to be more things, be it fishing actual full on throw my line out and fish, or more bigger badder dungeons, or guild halls. Im a collector my self so I would prefer more things to collect be they minis or display items.

Dungeons for SP please.

There will eventually be more dungeons. We know also there’ll be a couple of new fractals, which will revitalize that to some degree…but this game was never designed around dungeons. It was designed around a “living/breathing world”. I knew when that was said it wasn’t focused on instanced content and frankly I’m happy for that. I was looking for an MMO where that was the case for a long time.

Because I don’t think dungeons and raids are the be all end all of MMORPGing. In fact, they’re almost anti-RPG from my point of view. They’re more like separate minigames. You fight a boss until you learn the mechanics, and then you need another boss.

I’m not sure why the Living Story dungeons didn’t appeal to you, OP.

OP, you are not alone in your concerns.

My guild and I take advantage of all the game has to offer however…

…like you, we are dungeon explorers/conquerors at heart.

We, like many other GW2 players for over the last 6 months, have raised concerns about permanent content, including the addition of dungeons, and creating “hard mode” settings from the current ones.

We are also staring down the barrel of temporary content and wondering if the time will come to move on. Not something we are interested in but may feel forced to do.

Just posted about one of that four days ago:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/If-ANet-launched-an-expansion/first#post2868383

Would love to see more dungeons. More places to explore.

Daywolf.2630:

I like dungeons, I just don’t care for instanced dungeons all that much. They need to make some public dungeons, real dungeons, dark and deep, quite hard and not meant for solo players. Huge underground complexes with no way to fast travel though it all….snip

In the past I have said I wasn’t sure that I would advocate a DAoC Darkness Falls style dungeon because I was concerned it would be a pale imitation. These days, I’m not so sure. DF was the ultimate dungeon crawl for us, on so many levels from the solo top level down through the group level Princes, all the way to the community raid level dungeon boss Legion. The non-instanced Darkness Falls dungeon was an entire map zone and then some. That piece of exceptional MMO content was in a class by itself.

Yes, I’d love to have the experience again.

@Shotgun Sonata, thank you for posting your concerns.

You are not alone, but i’m not really a dungeon-er, that said i feel your post fits with almost every aspect in the game when it opened, I’m more of an open world adventurer at heart but yea, since living story/Ascended came i feel as you do about them….. what’s the point..

I really appreciate the voiced support of my original post. I’m glad to hear more people like me clamoring for some permanent content.

Here’s my confusion. From a player standpoint and as a business standpoint, why does temporary content make any sense? (Holiday dungeons not withstanding) Think about it. If they make a new dungeon for the rise of the new Rainbow Dragon or whatever, why would they make it disappear in two months? I would occasionally want to return to that dungeon if I enjoy it. Oh and by the way? Making dungeons isn’t easy. So why waste the effort by throwing it out the window? -_-

I’m not looking for a difficulty increase. What I am looking for is more dungeon style content at THIS difficulty. I wouldn’t object to harder content per se, but what I want is variety.

If you don’t add new dungeons with your temporary content, or you just reskin existing ones, or pull out archive material that did not make it into release, and all you are doing with temporary content is setting a new story and some mobs against the backdrop of an already existing world, then you can milk your already created content.

Takes less time, requires less overall testing, less storage space, etcetera.

From business viewpoint, that does not see this game as something that appeals to the classic MMO players who define an MMO by permanence, you’ve got a less expensive model. (With or without taking into account those players may attrit.)

PS: Add in those “KMart Blue Light Specials” of temporarily available items based off the temporary theme and the number watchers are happier.

Shotgun Sonata.5017:

I really appreciate the voiced support of my original post. I’m glad to hear more people like me clamoring for some permanent content.

Here’s my confusion. From a player standpoint and as a business standpoint, why does temporary content make any sense? (Holiday dungeons not withstanding) Think about it. If they make a new dungeon for the rise of the new Rainbow Dragon or whatever, why would they make it disappear in two months? I would occasionally want to return to that dungeon if I enjoy it. Oh and by the way? Making dungeons isn’t easy. So why waste the effort by throwing it out the window? -_-

I’m not looking for a difficulty increase. What I am looking for is more dungeon style content at THIS difficulty. I wouldn’t object to harder content per se, but what I want is variety.

Picture a game developer, who sees “the players” blow through any new content in a week, and then get bored.

This isn’t really the majority of the player base, it’s just the few percent with a lot of time on their hands (and probably a lot of player skill and a lot of focus on blowing through the content as well). These are the achievers as described by Bartle some years ago, not the explorers or others.

Now, let’s let the developer get fixated on those few players and the fact that they are getting bored with nothing to do, and that they do not need quality content because they don’t go deep in it, they just blow through it. So the answer is frequent content of modest depth and whatever quality can happen on that schedule.

We saw this developer prioritization error occur before early in WoW, where Jeff Kaplan got fixated on the raiders who’d beaten his raid instances ahead of schedule, and diverted what seemed like the majority of development resources to raid content only 0.1% of the players would ever see. Same error, different result.

I personally am part of what I would hope are the majority of players, who go through the content a lot slower, can’t make it through many of the living story events in the 2 weeks allowed, and place no value on content which vanishes before I can complete it.

Can you see the business rationale, given the (what I hope is incorrect) assumption?

I like dungeons especially the Fractals of the Mists because I am a lore person. New Fractals are going to be added to Fractals of the Mists like Thaumanova Reactor Fractal which I am very excited about.

At first, I did not like World vs World then I got immersed to it. WvW feels like a real war when you have a commander on Voice over Internet Protocol. Different commanders have their own strategies which interests me. There are scouts, trappers, havoc teams, and dolyak escorts in WvW; it is the real role playing part of Guild Wars 2.

angelpaladin.7921:

There is not really any great way to grind money or mats with the diminishing returns system the game has. There is no way to craft for money either.

I really wonder what issue people have with Diminishing returns. I never actually hit them. In GW1 it was objectively far worse. In GW2 it might as well not exist unless you’re a bot.

Getting money in GW2 is becoming easier now. A few bosses, a dungeon or two and within the hour you can have a few gold. If you’re lucky, an invasion happens and you can earn tons of money there.

I mirror alot of your concerns, OP. I actually made a post in another thread sharing a similar view.

On the topic of the dungeons themselves: They are bar-none my favorite part of the game, and I’d love to see more. I found them satisfying, fun, and provided some of the most memorable social experiences.

Of course, they’re still in need of a lot, a whooooole lot of work.

bewhatever.2390:

Shotgun Sonata.5017:

I really appreciate the voiced support of my original post. I’m glad to hear more people like me clamoring for some permanent content.

Here’s my confusion. From a player standpoint and as a business standpoint, why does temporary content make any sense? (Holiday dungeons not withstanding) Think about it. If they make a new dungeon for the rise of the new Rainbow Dragon or whatever, why would they make it disappear in two months? I would occasionally want to return to that dungeon if I enjoy it. Oh and by the way? Making dungeons isn’t easy. So why waste the effort by throwing it out the window? -_-

I’m not looking for a difficulty increase. What I am looking for is more dungeon style content at THIS difficulty. I wouldn’t object to harder content per se, but what I want is variety.

Picture a game developer, who sees “the players” blow through any new content in a week, and then get bored.

This isn’t really the majority of the player base, it’s just the few percent with a lot of time on their hands (and probably a lot of player skill and a lot of focus on blowing through the content as well). These are the achievers as described by Bartle some years ago, not the explorers or others.

Now, let’s let the developer get fixated on those few players and the fact that they are getting bored with nothing to do, and that they do not need quality content because they don’t go deep in it, they just blow through it. So the answer is frequent content of modest depth and whatever quality can happen on that schedule.

We saw this developer prioritization error occur before early in WoW, where Jeff Kaplan got fixated on the raiders who’d beaten his raid instances ahead of schedule, and diverted what seemed like the majority of development resources to raid content only 0.1% of the players would ever see. Same error, different result.

I personally am part of what I would hope are the majority of players, who go through the content a lot slower, can’t make it through many of the living story events in the 2 weeks allowed, and place no value on content which vanishes before I can complete it.

Can you see the business rationale, given the (what I hope is incorrect) assumption?

Actually yes, that makes an unfortunate amount of sense.

So another MMO, Aion, had a system they never used for its intended purpose: Surveys. It ended up being a resource for giving players rewards and free items at certain levels and accomplishments.

I think Guild Wars 2 needs to do a survey and get the voice and the pulse of its player base. Offer some cool skin, or maybe 300 gems, or a small handful of gold, and get people to answer some questions that I think Arena Net NEEDS to hear the answers to.

Forums are great for us to vent to each other, but they can never be indicative of the majority, only indicative of a vocal group of dissenters. People who are happy with how things are going never make their voices heard.

I never tried out any of the LS dungeons, were they any good? i remember strife’s video for molten facility though and it looked boring as heck.

The end fight for it was kind of neat, but that’s only because of my fond memories for Ornstein and Smough.

Blude.6812:

Dungeons for SP please.

This! Molten Facility was ALMOST a SP dungeon, I got more than halfway through it, but some smaller, kitten ring/frustrating SP dungeons would be awesome!

Shotgun Sonata.5017:

I’m not making progress in GW2. I’m watching filler episodes.

So Arena Net, fellow players, am I alone in these concerns? Does anyone else wish the bar could occasionally be moved up once in a while? Will there be new, harder dungeons? Or is it time for me to move on?

I think anyone who plays an MMO solidly for a few months or more, and who plays well, and frequently (not even constantly), will reach this point.

Is it time to move on? If you feel the need for progression, well, yes. That’s not a criticism, but until/unless an expansion comes out, the only thing you can do is wait for more content – which will not necessarily fit your fairly specific needs.

I’ve reached this point in many MMOs myself – so I take a break – usually from MMOs entirely. Then I come back once a bunch more content has been released, or after an expansion. Only DAoC managed to keep me going continuously, and that’s because it’s endgame was largely lateral power-gain (with some soft vertical) through PvP, and because you could always do stuff better, or with less people or whatever, in PvE. No modern MMO is set up that way so…

EDIT – One problem people don’t seem aware of is that, right now, only a tiny percentage of players go into the dungeons.

So adding more perma-dungeons, for this tiny percent, doesn’t seem like the best plan.

LFG is an attempt to address this. We shall see if it does. If so – expect more perma-dungeons.

Bismuth.3165:

TooBz.3065:

….

Around 40 threads were made because people thought ta F/U was hard, it’s probably going to get revamped, and honestly, I hope anet takes a long and good look at dungeons because a lot of stuff needs to be fixed/changed.
Also, it’d be nice if they decreased the HP of elite mobs in some dungeons (like arah) and increased the damage, for example make them do 50% more damage and have 30% less hp, that way the encounter is more fun than it is tedious.

There is already enough 1 shot hits from mobs that all I run is zerkers anymore. If I am going to get 1 shot, might as well spec for max damage. I don’t think increased damage is the answer.

Shotgun Sonata.5017:

-snip-

Are there going to be more dungeons? Should there be? Am I alone in wanting more consistent content? Yes, living stories have individual dungeons (that go away) and you are focused on the living story more than dungeoneering, but is there any intention at all to set a new bar for us to reach for? I feel like I’ve beaten Guild Wars 2, and while yes, I can explore some extra content, there’s nothing more for me to strive for.

-snip-

So Arena Net, fellow players, am I alone in these concerns? Does anyone else wish the bar could occasionally be moved up once in a while? Will there be new, harder dungeons? Or is it time for me to move on?

Regarding fractals:
There are more fractals coming… the return of the molten dungeon, and the aetherblade dungeon as fractals. As well as the reactor fractal has all been said to be expected by the end of the year. Personally, I don’t know if they will make that deadline, but that’s what we’ve been told.

Regarding dungeons:
Based on the information supplied to us by Colin in both his blog and from PAX, it does not sound like there will be any further static dungeons for this campaign. The 8 dungeons we have currently are ‘it.’ However, it has been stated that they are working on overhauling each of those dungeon paths, with some of them eventually becoming similar to ‘elite’ style content – ie can only do them if you’re really good. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy7CcwnfUdU right around 16:20, he starts discussing dungeons) Such things will take time, so definitely don’t expect it tomorrow. However, if they approach dungeon paths similarly to how they apporached Teq, I can very much see some of them becoming much harder.

Beyond this, we have been told that we will see expansion type content in the future of living story. Additional static dungeons are something I would consider to be this type of content, so when we do get an expansion, we may see more dungeons. Nothing has been said to definitively rule them out when places like the crystal desert, cantha, or elona get opened back up to us. So, there is that possibility of seeing more dungeons in future ‘campaigns.’

In the mean time though, I’m sure we’ll see a few more of the temporary ones with living story, and if they are good (and we ask nicely) they may eventually join the fractals line up.

Here’s to hoping…