Guild Wars 2

I pretty much agree with DocHolliday, but there is one bit of misinformation there. Ascended (or gear in general) isn’t an issue in sPvP because you don’t use your PvE gear there. The gear for sPvP is completely separate, and is all exotic currently. It’s also all freely available (stat-wise). It’s still an issue in wvw, and any future game modes that don’t segregate to use the sPvP gear system.

It’s more than an issue of “if you don’t like it, don’t play it”. I do like it, or at least I did. Bugs aside, the game was fine at release, but that is not-so-slowly changing. Repeated bad decisions are turning away a lot of the fanbase of the previous game, in an attempt to lure in the fans of other MMOs with an appetite for content that Anet (or any other dev) will never be able to appease. You’ll keep them till they have their new gear, while everyone else leaves becaues the entire treadmill pace is being set by these players. Once they have their gear, what happens? Add more gear to get them back for another couple months, while ensuring the rest of us never come back?

mrstealth.6701:

I pretty much agree with DocHolliday, but there is one bit of misinformation there. Ascended (or gear in general) isn’t an issue in sPvP because you don’t use your PvE gear there. The gear for sPvP is completely separate, and is all exotic currently. It’s also all freely available (stat-wise). It’s still an issue in wvw, and any future game modes that don’t segregate to use the sPvP gear system.

It’s more than an issue of “if you don’t like it, don’t play it”. I do like it, or at least I did. Bugs aside, the game was fine at release, but that is not-so-slowly changing. Repeated bad decisions are turning away a lot of the fanbase of the previous game, in an attempt to lure in the fans of other MMOs with an appetite for content that Anet (or any other dev) will never be able to appease. You’ll keep them till they have their new gear, while everyone else leaves becaues the entire treadmill pace is being set by these players. Once they have their gear, what happens? Add more gear to get them back for another couple months, while ensuring the rest of us never come back?

Apologies on the incorrect assumption about sPvP. I haven’t done any yet, because I’m still grinding gear, and I hate doing PvP undergeared.

Also, completely agree with your post.

i cant see how players defend that gear progression just by stating that SOME players want it. GW2 was Announced and build as a game WITHOUT gear progression, which is one very important point at this game, and most gw2 players, especially those coming from gw1, love about it. This game does not need gear progression, and im saying that as someone who was lvl 80 and had his first full exotic set in the first month, if this is not what you think, this game is just not for you.

Yes, SOME players might like a gear progression, but then gtfo my game, why did you even came to gw2 in the first place? Just to ruin it for us, when you KNEW exactly that gw2 wasnt supposed to have any kind of gear progression?

let me explain why wow and its community is so much hated everywhere:
new game comes out, finally some (or at least a bit) new mechanics and ideas to the standardized mmo genre, oh hurray lets quit wow and start playing it, just to complain after 1-2 months that it doesnt have the content and the same mechanics as wow so they introduce it, and then leave the game and go back to wow again because it still doesnt have as much content, tyvm!

Im pretty sure the elder scrolls online will introduce a new UI after the first few months (or perhaps even during the beta), with a skillbar to slot your different attacks in, instead of attacking and blocking with the mouse.

Czar Peter.7961:

All excellent points, couldn’t have said it better myself. However I wouldn’t go so far as to say I would not put up with any more vertical progression. I’ll keep playing if they keep all future (inevitable) vertical progression out of sPvP AND WvW.

Not me. If I wanted vertical progression in my PvE I’d never have quit playing WoW, or Rift, or SW:ToR. And if I disliked those for any other reason, I still have hundreds or thousands of other MMORPGs out there with indefinite ongoing vertical PvE gear progression to try. If I liked gear grinding. But I don’t.

That was probably the best part of Nightfall for me – the ability to get max-stat gear literally 20 minutes after creating a new character. Then you can quit worrying about gear and just have fun.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

1. Laurel’s will be gotten from all achievements not just dailies, this is just step 1.
2. I’m not sure where you got the idea that the only method for getting ascended gear will be laurel’s. In fact the devs have specifically said that different pieces will all be gotten from different methods, and that they plan on having multiple methods for each piece. You can already get rings from both fractals and laurels. So your entire calculation is essentially worthless since it doesn’t convey any sense of reality.

Seems like we’re always on “step 1” doesn’t it? It’s like they’re still designing the game they sold us.

Hmm.

Rocklin.4106:

i cant see how players defend that gear progression just by stating that SOME players want it. GW2 was Announced and build as a game WITHOUT gear progression, which is one very important point at this game, and most gw2 players, especially those coming from gw1, love about it. This game does not need gear progression, and im saying that as someone who was lvl 80 and had his first full exotic set in the first month, if this is not what you think, this game is just not for you.

Yes, SOME players might like a gear progression, but then gtfo my game, why did you even came to gw2 in the first place? Just to ruin it for us, when you KNEW exactly that gw2 wasnt supposed to have any kind of gear progression?

let me explain why wow and its community is so much hated everywhere:
new game comes out, finally some (or at least a bit) new mechanics and ideas to the standardized mmo genre, oh hurray lets quit wow and start playing it, just to complain after 1-2 months that it doesnt have the content and the same mechanics as wow so they introduce it, and then leave the game and go back to wow again because it still doesnt have as much content, tyvm!

Im pretty sure the elder scrolls online will introduce a new UI after the first few months (or perhaps even during the beta), with a skillbar to slot your different attacks in, instead of attacking and blocking with the mouse.

If ESO is anything more than WoW in Tamriel I’ll be highly surprised. No, my money says it’s just another Warhammer/Rift/ToR that has one “really amazing” new feature and leaves out half of all the stuff that made WoW as fun as it was.

It’s not a treadmill until they add another tier. Until then, they can claim that is was merely a mistake to release the game without Ascended gear in already. If they add a new tier above without adding levels then it certainly is a treadmill in nature.

What I take issue with is the idea that they can do both vertical and horizontal progression at the same time. There’s a huge problem with that theory in the fact that horizontal progression is based heavily on different builds and testing out different options. In order to do that, you need more than one set of armor at a given level. You need your damage armor, your support armor, your condition damage armor, or your whatever. I already have two exotic sets of head, shoulder, chest, gloves, pants and boots.

While getting one set of exotics is easy enough, getting multiple sets to do multiple things is a bit harder. With exotics, the time investment to do such was at just about the sweet spot for horizontal progression. If you wanted to try out a build other than your usual build and the build required different stats in order to work best then you weren’t punished for wanting to progress in a horizontal fashion.

But the time investment for Ascended gear and the availability of access to the items is not the same situation. ANet realizes this and acknowledges it by their own bit by bit release of Ascended gear. By the time there is a full set of Ascended gear out there, the time investment involved will be high enough that it will actively discourage build experimentation at optimal level.

Of course, you can say having best in slot doesn’t matter, but we all know that anyone who plays games at a more than casual value would not agree. People want best in slot to see their performance at the optimum level attainable. That is the nature not just of MMOs, but in about any genre out there.

So in the end, Horizontal and Vertical cannot coexist, because the time increase of vertical progression gets in the way of the ease of variation of horizontal progression.

etiolate.9185:

It’s not a treadmill until they add another tier. Until then, they can claim that is was merely a mistake to release the game without Ascended gear in already. If they add a new tier above without adding levels then it certainly is a treadmill in nature.

What I take issue with is the idea that they can do both vertical and horizontal progression at the same time. There’s a huge problem with that theory in the fact that horizontal progression is based heavily on different builds and testing out different options. In order to do that, you need more than one set of armor at a given level. You need your damage armor, your support armor, your condition damage armor, or your whatever. I already have two exotic sets of head, shoulder, chest, gloves, pants and boots.

While getting one set of exotics is easy enough, getting multiple sets to do multiple things is a bit harder. With exotics, the time investment to do such was at just about the sweet spot for horizontal progression. If you wanted to try out a build other than your usual build and the build required different stats in order to work best then you weren’t punished for wanting to progress in a horizontal fashion.

But the time investment for Ascended gear and the availability of access to the items is not the same situation. ANet realizes this and acknowledges it by their own bit by bit release of Ascended gear. By the time there is a full set of Ascended gear out there, the time investment involved will be high enough that it will actively discourage build experimentation at optimal level.

Of course, you can say having best in slot doesn’t matter, but we all know that anyone who plays games at a more than casual value would not agree. People want best in slot to see their performance at the optimum level attainable. That is the nature not just of MMOs, but in about any genre out there.

So in the end, Horizontal and Vertical cannot coexist, because the time increase of vertical progression gets in the way of the ease of variation of horizontal progression.

Ok, so technically you can excuse them for the ascended gear and say it’s not a treadmill… yet. Technically. But all the traits are there: new gear tier after release with better stats, lots of time to acquire, can only be acquired by doing top-level PvE content or very very slowly by doing dailies.

I definitely agree with the rest of your post though. Well, except for the time investment in horizontal progression with Exotics. I still think that takes way too much time/resources. It’s just not in the spirit of GW, at all.

Yeah you know it’s funny i don’t even mind gear treadmills that much, i played wow for 6 years and since november im playing Lotro again. Both have gear treadmills and i even like getting new shinies.
Thing is though those games never pretended to be without a gear treadmill i get what i signed up for.
Guild wars 2 on the other hand was advertised as play as you want and no gear treadmill. It’s a standard Anet set and they failed to keep it. They can mince words as they want alot of people, me included, expected a grind free game with easy to achieve max gear.
They threw that out of the window and that’s why i stopped playing plain and simple.
Had they advertised like we’re gonna be like everyone else just prettier that’d be fine
i never would have even started.
They set up a standard failed to meet it and they keep failing to meet it. Looking at daily achieves for 35 days just to get one ring, that’s not quick and fairly easy to get Max gear, that’s a grind.
They also said ascended gear would come to every part of the game, well i can’t craft it yet can i nor can i buy it for karma. Hell you can’t even get the backpack doing FOTM so they even screwed the people that actually enjoyed that.
No sorry i don’t stick to companies that continually don’t even try to meet their standards. Maybe the february update will impress me, i quite honestly doubt it though it’s probably time to write of gw2 as a lost cause.

DocHolliday.5921:

I definitely agree with the rest of your post though. Well, except for the time investment in horizontal progression with Exotics. I still think that takes way too much time/resources. It’s just not in the spirit of GW, at all.

I agree with Ascended gear being way too much grind/time for multiple builds (or even one). Exotics are fine for a single-build situation, but they could use some toning down to make multiple build testing viable. You can’t really test a build properly using green/masterwork gear, and trying with rare/yellow jewelry seems like a waste of ecto to me. Rare jewelry just slows down progress on getting exotics by eating up ecto. But the time/cost of exotics should be improved by the new higher drop rates on t6 fine mats, so there is some good progress in that respect.

What I’m finding here in this thread is the emerging issue that, at the core, players do not find the tasks in the game fun, so they immediately turn it into a “treadmill”.

So, I think the bigger problem is that the game itself just isn’t resonating with players, regardless of the reward or progression structure.

Raine.1394:

When I came to GW2 and first reached 80 and max level gear I breathed a sigh of relief—I would never have to grind again—or so I thought. It is and continues to be a huge disappointment.

qft

long time gw1 vet, played gw1 since release. gw1 was fun because of breadth of useful skills, and the various combat styles you could succesfully use because of those skills. Plus, the healer/tank/whatever setup was fun as well.

gw2 is going down the drain imo

Zeldain.5710:

What I’m finding here in this thread is the emerging issue that, at the core, players do not find the tasks in the game fun, so they immediately turn it into a “treadmill”.

So, I think the bigger problem is that the game itself just isn’t resonating with players, regardless of the reward or progression structure.

You might think that but you would be wrong. The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

Laurels are just another way of getting ascended gear, it’s not the only one, and there will be other sources. AN just delivers on their promise to introduce ways to get ascended gear through other means in the game, not only fractals.

Somewhat related to this topic…
A guildmate pointed out that the Valkyrie stat(power/vital/crit damage) is “missing” from the ascended jewelry available. I looked through and noticed that Knight’s(toughness/power/precision) seems to be missing as well.

I use those two stats on jewelry for several characters, so there is quite literally no ascended jewelry option for those characters. I would have to change builds, or attempt to work in the same stat bonuses with different stat sets, either of which would most likely require replacing all gear.

Nice to know that that some players/buids get to upgrade, while others are just tossed aside.

edit:
Just noticed that Carrion(condition damage/power/vital) is missing, too. So there goes 2 more characters that can’t get ascended jewelry. I think I have 2 characters that can keep their current stat sets and get a partial set of ascended jewelry. Those 2 currently have partial sets of berserker jewelry.

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

SonicTHI.3217:

Vorch.2985:

I give ANet a pass on ascended gear because it was supposed to be in the game at launch and they did not have time to add it.

Should they add a next tier, I will not be as forgiving.

Something completely counter intuitive to 5 years of development, against their core philosophy of no grind for max stat gear and that being available trough many means in the game, held secret from the public… then without warning released in only one place with only one way of obtaining it.
And you believe this stuff?

Laurels are just damage control.

Also just by pointing out that “there wont be a new tier above ascended this year” they ve made it very clear in what direction this game is going.

The only reason for laurels is damage control around the decision to locate the gear grind in a single dungeon. We certainly didn’t need another currency. And, Vorch, in the AMA they made it clear that what they were adding was not a new and final tier of gear, they were adding vertical progression. Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically raising the power level of the game. It doesn’t “progress” by stopping at tier 2 of an infinite series. Those who understand the concept can be unforgiving now; there’s really no reason to wait.

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

This is not how i read it and i have never even touched GW1. Especially the quote about how an item that you spend hundreds of hours on should not be functionally better. Sorry can’t find the actualy quote now.
Even if you interpret the manifesto in that way it still isn’t true,
you need the agony resistance for high level fractals that’s an effective gate.
We can argue that you don’t need to do the fractals or that you don’t need best in slot still for those high level fractals.
But Wow isn’t so different there unless you really care for a server first. BIS gear helps but it was, while i played, in no way necessary to complete the latest tier.
All 5 man content(read dungeons in GW2) was doable in sub par gear and landscape content even in crappy gear. Did people refuse to take you in crappy gear ? Yup sure.
I’ve seen the same here since fractals too though, theres no inspect so you can lie with linking your pieces, but it’s the same thing.

Just adding my voice to the thread that I don’t enjoy gear progression and will not tolerate ANET adding another tier of quality past Ascended. I’ll give them this one since they claim it should have been there from the beginning, but that’s it.

If you are looking for a new tier every year, there are games with that system in place.

Um it begun last november, you’re way behind mate.

Oh and just as a side note just like Wow Guild wars 2 now forces you down a certain road to get the BIS gear. Which is the exact thing people came to loathe in those other games. Raid or die just got replaced by Fractals or die.
And now they changed it to Fractal and/or Daily or die.
I’m not sure how you fit that into the manifesto no matter how generous you are.

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

I have never played an MMO that punished you for having non-BiS gear. In WoW you can see all the content in greens. GW2 is not distinctive at all for the not penalizing you for not having BiS items. The only gating that occurs is in dungeons post level cap. And, we have that same gating in FotM. You are not going to waltz into FotM lvl 30 without showing your agony card at the door. The gating in GW2 is by gear just as in WoW.

Your close parsing of Anet advertizing reminds me of Clinton’s refrain “I did not have sex with that woman”. It turned out his definition of sex was a little different than that held by the rest of us. You really can’t read the manifesto plainly and come away with the distinctions you are making; the distinctions must first be made up. The language of the manifesto is clear to any experienced gamer. And, it’s why 11/15 caused an uproar in the community. We understood the manifesto and all pre-release comments on the way GW2 was to be unique among MMO’s in being without a gear grind treadmill.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

I have never played an MMO that punished you for having non-BiS gear. In WoW you can see all the content in greens. GW2 is not distinctive at all for the not penalizing you for not having BiS items. The only gating that occurs is in dungeons post level cap. And, we have that same gating in FotM. You are not going to waltz into FotM lvl 30 without showing your agony card at the door. The gating in GW2 is by gear just as in WoW.

You could not raid in greens, raids in WoW were the definition of PvE content. You absolutely could not see all content in greens. QED.

You can’t say “they both have post-level cap gating” when in GW2 I can see literally all content (difficulty != content) before the gate becomes a factor, where in WoW to even step foot in specific instances, you had to reach a specific level of gear.

Any experienced gamer would see the difference.

You really can’t read the manifesto plainly and come away with the distinctions you are making; the distinctions must first be made up. The language of the manifesto is clear to any experienced gamer.

I contend that your interpretation of the design manifesto is off-base, because in my opinion the game has kept the manifesto intact.

I’m not forced to grind anything to participate and be relevant; ergo any vertical progression is optional. I don’t care that I’m not stat-capped because the cap doesn’t matter.

I can’t spell this out any simpler for you.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

I have never played an MMO that punished you for having non-BiS gear. In WoW you can see all the content in greens. GW2 is not distinctive at all for the not penalizing you for not having BiS items. The only gating that occurs is in dungeons post level cap. And, we have that same gating in FotM. You are not going to waltz into FotM lvl 30 without showing your agony card at the door. The gating in GW2 is by gear just as in WoW.

You could not raid in greens, raids in WoW were the definition of PvE content. You absolutely could not see all content in greens. QED.

You can’t say “they both have post-level cap gating” when in GW2 I can see literally all content (difficulty != content) before the gate becomes a factor, where in WoW to even step foot in specific instances, you had to reach a specific level of gear.

Any experienced gamer would see the difference.

You really can’t read the manifesto plainly and come away with the distinctions you are making; the distinctions must first be made up. The language of the manifesto is clear to any experienced gamer.

I contend that your interpretation of the design manifesto is off-base, because in my opinion the game has kept the manifesto intact.

I’m not forced to grind anything to participate and be relevant; ergo any vertical progression is optional. I don’t care that I’m not stat-capped because the cap doesn’t matter.

I can’t spell this out any simpler for you.

Allright i guess 15 years+ doesn’t count as experienced.
I played Vanilla wow. You’re right you could not do say MC in green in any feasible way. Fact is though only a small portion of the player base ever stepped foot into there
not to mention anything beyond. You could do Blackrock Spire in greens though not necessarly easy but you can.
Now let’s assume MC is T1 so fractals level 10+ Blackrock and other 5 mans are Fractals 1-10 . I assume you can do the first fractal tier in blues(which would be wow greens), not sure how fun that is cause i never tried, but possible.
How about fractals 10+, fractals 20+, 30+ ? You could say once you seen all fractals you’ve seen all the content. But that’s just cause Anet took the easiest way out with the increasing difficulty. Also i would say not that many people in GW2 step into fractals 20+. I’m not even sure if the majority is at 10+.
As for landscape content my memory is a bit fuzzy there but i remember wow vanilla actually having quite a few zones and quests i would contend it’s not so much less than GW2. And mind you i’m just speaking of the very first iteration of Wow, things changed quite a bit after that.

Oh and anet decided difficulty is their contend progression in fractals so difficulty = content. You can chose not to take part in it….. you could chose not to raid in wow.

What GW2 at the moment does not do is invalidate the Ascended pieces by a new tier, like wow did every few month. With anets latest track record this might still happen though for all i know.

I don’t like how the amulets can only be obtained from the laurel merchant as much as I didn’t like rings being only obtainable from the Fractals, and as much as I don’t like back items requiring those massive material grinds.

But I still don’t see getting Ascended Gear as a gear treadmill, as there are no more gear tiers after ascended.
Ascended is the ‘last thing you put in the slot’, and then you only get more infusion upgrades.

I guess you could consider the upgrades the treadmill, but, meh. For now they only make a real difference in the fractals.

Kakeru.2873:

Could someone link me to the direct quote or post stating there would be ways to gain Laurels through achievement points?

There isn’t any – they even said that it’s very possible that the rewards for other achievements will be a separate system

morrolan.9608:

Grizledorf.5290:

Look dude before you bust out your pitchforks and rally all the hillbillies around to attack Frankenstein take a deep breath and realize. That number #1 people like getting new gear in these types of games. #2 Dailies aren’t a treadmill, they happen naturally while you play the game.

25 underwater kills happen naturally?
If you don’t like crafting how does having to craft happen naturally?
Specifically having 10 combo kills happens naturally?

Fractal, dolphin path , 25 kill easy peasy…or just go to any low lvl map and find them, need about what? 2 min ?
You can just refine 10 mats, then sell them…refined mats cost more anyway so it’ better to refine things like ori ores…
10 combo kill is bugged, that’s why many ppl didn’t got it yesterday…it ll work better when they fix it ofc…stil big events as the claw of jormag or dungeons provides it, and ll do it even faster later on after fix…
So …i do not see the point…if you play, you get them…that’s all i see sorry…unless you want to get rewards by sitting in LA.

MithranArkanere.8957:

But I still don’t see getting Ascended Gear as a gear treadmill, as there are no more gear tiers after ascended.

Says who? They promised only no new tier in 2013. They did also say they will be introducing eq with better stats within already existing tiers. So it’s very likely that the new tier will start to appear as soon as january 2015, or that “better, improved” ascended eq with increased stats will see the light of day in 3 months from now. Or tomorrow even (though this is not very likely). All of those would be fully following the devs promises we got so far, and their stated design goals for the future.

Tinybel.3847:

Fact is though only a small portion of the player base ever stepped foot into there
not to mention anything beyond.

Right, because the content was gated gear-wise, and getting 40 (geared) people for a raid
was difficult. This didn’t only apply to Vanilla, it lasted all the way into cataclysm.

You could say once you seen all fractals you’ve seen all the content. But that’s just cause Anet took the easiest way out with the increasing difficulty. Also i would say not that many people in GW2 step into fractals 20+.

The “easiest way out” also allows Anet to let its playerbase play the fractal content without being gated. This is a good thing.

Oh and anet decided difficulty is their contend progression in fractals so difficulty = content. You can chose not to take part in it….. you could chose not to raid in wow.

It’s not content progression, it’s difficulty progression. You’re not playing anything “new,” just playing a harder version of it. I do choose to not take part in it until I have a group who’s willing to sit down and learn the game.

Difference between WoW’s gear-gated content and Gw2’s gear-gated content is that GW2’s gate doesn’t start until well after you’ve seen all of the fractal content.

wasted.6817:

Laurels are just another way of getting ascended gear, it’s not the only one, and there will be other sources. AN just delivers on their promise to introduce ways to get ascended gear through other means in the game, not only fractals.

I don’t want more ways to get what I don’t want. :-(

Mackdose.6504:

You could not raid in greens, raids in WoW were the definition of PvE content. You absolutely could not see all content in greens. QED.

I contend that your interpretation of the design manifesto is off-base, because in my opinion the game has kept the manifesto intact.

really his opinion is wrong because your opinion is correct that’s your argument?

while the green- blue rarity is backwards comparing wow to GW2 you may have forgotten in wow you could do this: http://greedygoblin.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/ungeared.html
at the time yogg was the end boss.

Can you do even mid end fractals in comparative gear?

Mackdose.6504:

Tinybel.3847:

Fact is though only a small portion of the player base ever stepped foot into there
not to mention anything beyond.

Right, because the content was gated gear-wise, and getting 40 (geared) people for a raid
was difficult. This didn’t only apply to Vanilla, it lasted all the way into cataclysm.

You could say once you seen all fractals you’ve seen all the content. But that’s just cause Anet took the easiest way out with the increasing difficulty. Also i would say not that many people in GW2 step into fractals 20+.

The “easiest way out” also allows Anet to let its playerbase play the fractal content without being gated. This is a good thing.

Oh and anet decided difficulty is their contend progression in fractals so difficulty = content. You can chose not to take part in it….. you could chose not to raid in wow.

It’s not content progression, it’s difficulty progression. You’re not playing anything “new,” just playing a harder version of it. I do choose to not take part in it until I have a group who’s willing to sit down and learn the game.

Difference between WoW’s gear-gated content and Gw2’s gear-gated content is that GW2’s gate doesn’t start until well after you’ve seen all of the fractal content.

That it was hard to find 40 geared people was more of a problem of the Format getting 5 Raid ready people would have been not much harder than getting a fractal group.
And Wow not having any contend beyond raids was a player base misconception.
There was quite alot to do before 60 and at 60.
Alot of people just chose to ignore it and to zoom right to 60 and raid.
Probably the same people that in GW2 chose to zoom to 80 and then complain there is nothing to do, which in part i would assume netted us the ascended gear.

And difficulty progression is contend progression. Since mob behaviour changes and some things change up you have not seen everything the game has to offer if you never did the highest level of FOTM. What you have seen is all the story the fractal has to offer but uh what story is there anyways ?
I hate defending wow since i kinda dislike the game now but for me nothing arena net has done since 15th november is in line with their manifesto, and has mostly been cartered at exactly those wow players.

Loathe was a too strong word :P

Not to be a pain but where is all the Crafted Ascended, or WvW Ascended..

Play the way you want to play has gone right out the window…

I look at a few main factors here
1. Does ascended gear give an unfair advantage to WvW..no it does not
2. Can I do fractules without ascended gear? Yes you can…
3. Can I enjoy 99% of the games content without worrying about my gear..yes I can
Really fail to see the issue

It is completely shameful. Anet completely failed me with ascended gear. Looking better =/ having better stats. Shameful.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

I have never played an MMO that punished you for having non-BiS gear. In WoW you can see all the content in greens. GW2 is not distinctive at all for the not penalizing you for not having BiS items. The only gating that occurs is in dungeons post level cap. And, we have that same gating in FotM. You are not going to waltz into FotM lvl 30 without showing your agony card at the door. The gating in GW2 is by gear just as in WoW.

You could not raid in greens, raids in WoW were the definition of PvE content. You absolutely could not see all content in greens. QED.

You can’t say “they both have post-level cap gating” when in GW2 I can see literally all content (difficulty != content) before the gate becomes a factor, where in WoW to even step foot in specific instances, you had to reach a specific level of gear.

Any experienced gamer would see the difference.

You really can’t read the manifesto plainly and come away with the distinctions you are making; the distinctions must first be made up. The language of the manifesto is clear to any experienced gamer.

I contend that your interpretation of the design manifesto is off-base, because in my opinion the game has kept the manifesto intact.

I’m not forced to grind anything to participate and be relevant; ergo any vertical progression is optional. I don’t care that I’m not stat-capped because the cap doesn’t matter.

I can’t spell this out any simpler for you.

WoW has the same definition of PvE content as GW2. In WoW the open world is content that you quest through. There are dungeons accessible as you level and dungeons accessible at max level in your questing greens and blues. Raiding simply followed the process of gearing up throughout the game. It’s called vertical progression and it’s what is present in WoW and now what they have confirmed we have in GW2. In FotM we see the gated content beginning with the fractal levels. Just sit in LA and watch map chat to see the gating in action.

I see you are unfamiliar with vertical progression. It can be represented by an integer series:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5…n,

where the integers represent new tiers of gear with a corresponding increase in power level. While the difference between tier 1 and 2 may be small, by definition there will be a point at which you can no longer play the game in your tier 1 gear. This is simply what vertical progression is and does.

WoW has vertical progression and post 11/15 GW2 has vertical progression.

I can’t spell this out any simpler for you.

Dante.1508:

Not to be a pain but where is all the Crafted Ascended, or WvW Ascended..

Play the way you want to play has gone right out the window…

It’s possible they will add these venues in the future. I was surprised to learn that ascended amulets could be bought with laurels and sold on the TP rather than being soulbound or account bound. Assuming a player doesn’t mind waiting, they could apparently skip the dailies and buy their gear with gold.

More laurels will be given for permanent achievements later on.
Also, it takes 10 mins tops to do daily what’s your complain?

I find this a great way for everyone to experience everything the game has to offer.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Dante.1508:

Not to be a pain but where is all the Crafted Ascended, or WvW Ascended..

Play the way you want to play has gone right out the window…

It’s possible they will add these venues in the future. I was surprised to learn that ascended amulets could be bought with laurels and sold on the TP rather than being soulbound or account bound. Assuming a player doesn’t mind waiting, they could apparently skip the dailies and buy their gear with gold.

They might do that, fact is though they have not yet. The play as you like part is still out the window. They also have not added the Amulet to FOTM which would indicate not all gear will be available by all venues.

The game is coming in the Grind way, but I don’t think DEVs can make it go away, grind it’s in every MMO and it’s what kills them, do what…

combo kills is bugged, you can refine 10 pieces of cloth for the daily, doing your killing daily near water isn’t that crazy.

It’s like complaining about kill variety when you ONLY WANT TO STAY IN ORR.

Why is everyone so impatient for gear, there’s still no content that requires ascended outside of fractals so just play for fun and the gear will come.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

I have never played an MMO that punished you for having non-BiS gear. In WoW you can see all the content in greens. GW2 is not distinctive at all for the not penalizing you for not having BiS items. The only gating that occurs is in dungeons post level cap. And, we have that same gating in FotM. You are not going to waltz into FotM lvl 30 without showing your agony card at the door. The gating in GW2 is by gear just as in WoW.

You could not raid in greens, raids in WoW were the definition of PvE content. You absolutely could not see all content in greens. QED.

You can’t say “they both have post-level cap gating” when in GW2 I can see literally all content (difficulty != content) before the gate becomes a factor, where in WoW to even step foot in specific instances, you had to reach a specific level of gear.

Any experienced gamer would see the difference.

You really can’t read the manifesto plainly and come away with the distinctions you are making; the distinctions must first be made up. The language of the manifesto is clear to any experienced gamer.

I contend that your interpretation of the design manifesto is off-base, because in my opinion the game has kept the manifesto intact.

I’m not forced to grind anything to participate and be relevant; ergo any vertical progression is optional. I don’t care that I’m not stat-capped because the cap doesn’t matter.

I can’t spell this out any simpler for you.

WoW has the same definition of PvE content as GW2. In WoW the open world is content that you quest through. There are dungeons accessible as you level and dungeons accessible at max level in your questing greens and blues. Raiding simply followed the process of gearing up throughout the game. It’s called vertical progression and it’s what is present in WoW and now what they have confirmed we have in GW2. In FotM we see the gated content beginning with the fractal levels. Just sit in LA and watch map chat to see the gating in action.

I see you are unfamiliar with vertical progression. It can be represented by an integer series:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5…n,

where the integers represent new tiers of gear with a corresponding increase in power level. While the difference between tier 1 and 2 may be small, by definition there will be a point at which you can no longer play the game in your tier 1 gear. This is simply what vertical progression is and does.

WoW has vertical progression and post 11/15 GW2 has vertical progression.

I can’t spell this out any simpler for you.

Guild Wars 2 had vertical progression since inception. Evidence? Different stat allocation for rarities, 80 levels.

Now here’s where the compromise between HP and VP comes in:

Attainability
Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: 1 2 3 4 5 are viable for all content
Year 2: 2 3 4 5 6 are viable for all content
Year 3: 3 4 5 6 7 are viable for all content

So over 3 years of time, gear 5 is still viable for content, meaning that the VP doesn’t hinder the vast majority of players, even casual players (like myself). This is what a low power curve allows for.

Now I’m guessing your argument is that this still makes gear obsolete. You’d be right except for the fact you can transmog skins, meaning the gear is still desirable to players who like the look of the gear, down-scaling enables the gear to still be a challenge to obtain.

Stats aren’t the end-all be-all in this game, stop acting like they are.

GW2 did have a power curve from the beginning. If you check a few month back people were complaining about the Exotic gear too, rightfully so.
Matter of fact though exotics are fairly easy to obatin and obtainable in alot of ways. Imo in line with the play as you want part.
That being said you could say exotics still were against the manifesto, people just came to accept them.
Ascended pieces are different they’re not quick and easy to obtain nor attainable in alot of different ways. Throwing the play as you want completely out the window.

And if stats are not the end all of this game, why do ascended pieces have better stats ?
They could just have made them like legendaries, same stats harder to attain fully in line with the horizontal progression and at that point really completely optional.
Throw out the whole agony thing ,let people chose the difficulty setting of the fractals freely, give different skins on different fractal levels and were completely in line again.
They simply chose not to do that though.

Rambodacious.7495:

Kakeru.2873:

Sorry about the title. I don’t actually think it’s much of a treadmill, I just used it to get people in the topic :/

Do not give in to these ignorant fanbois. It IS a grind. Gear progression used to be horizontal, meaning you only acquired a new skin beyond the pitifully easy exotic gear to acquire. Now, according to your calculations AND even accounting for “alternative methods” being introduced in the future, it will take MONTHS of DAILY effort to get one set of ascended gear for ONE character and that ascended gear will have stats for ONE BUILD.

Anyone who says this is not a grind is being >willfully ignorant<.

/thread

This has to be sarcasm. I like how people put /thread like they have the last word and NOBODY is allowed to post after them.

By your definition, the game already had a vertical treadmill. Even having white, blue, green gear would be a treadmill because there is a stat increase and it isn’t just visual.

Who would want to play a game where all stats and weapons were exactly the same? PvE players definitely don’t. PvP, sure, which is why in PvP all gear and weapons are equivalent statistically, only differ visually.

Ethics.4519:

Rambodacious.7495:

Kakeru.2873:

Sorry about the title. I don’t actually think it’s much of a treadmill, I just used it to get people in the topic :/

Do not give in to these ignorant fanbois. It IS a grind. Gear progression used to be horizontal, meaning you only acquired a new skin beyond the pitifully easy exotic gear to acquire. Now, according to your calculations AND even accounting for “alternative methods” being introduced in the future, it will take MONTHS of DAILY effort to get one set of ascended gear for ONE character and that ascended gear will have stats for ONE BUILD.

Anyone who says this is not a grind is being >willfully ignorant<.

/thread

This has to be sarcasm. I like how people put /thread like they have the last word and NOBODY is allowed to post after them.

By your definition, the game already had a vertical treadmill. Even having white, blue, green gear would be a treadmill because there is a stat increase and it isn’t just visual.

Who would want to play a game where all stats and weapons were exactly the same? PvE players definitely don’t. PvP, sure, which is why in PvP all gear and weapons are equivalent statistically, only differ visually.

Umm I’m a pve player and i would like only visually different gear in pve ?

Ethics.4519:

Rambodacious.7495:

Kakeru.2873:

Sorry about the title. I don’t actually think it’s much of a treadmill, I just used it to get people in the topic :/

Do not give in to these ignorant fanbois. It IS a grind. Gear progression used to be horizontal, meaning you only acquired a new skin beyond the pitifully easy exotic gear to acquire. Now, according to your calculations AND even accounting for “alternative methods” being introduced in the future, it will take MONTHS of DAILY effort to get one set of ascended gear for ONE character and that ascended gear will have stats for ONE BUILD.

Anyone who says this is not a grind is being >willfully ignorant<.

/thread

This has to be sarcasm. I like how people put /thread like they have the last word and NOBODY is allowed to post after them.

By your definition, the game already had a vertical treadmill. Even having white, blue, green gear would be a treadmill because there is a stat increase and it isn’t just visual.

Who would want to play a game where all stats and weapons were exactly the same? PvE players definitely don’t. PvP, sure, which is why in PvP all gear and weapons are equivalent statistically, only differ visually.

You’re clearly just arguing for the sake of arguing. Which is, by definition, trolling.

For me, it basically boils down to this. They have about 6 months (maybe less) to fix the fiasco with Ascended gear. And that basically means making Ascended gear as easy-to-obtain as needed for proper non-grindy horizontal progression. Or in other words, about as easy to get as max-stat gear was in GW:Prophecies. Otherwise, I’m gone. This current BS is not what I was promised and not what I signed up for. If they want more of my money then they need to deliver what they advertised.

WoW has vertical progression and post 11/15 GW2 has vertical progression.

GW2 always had Vertical progression from day 1….

DocHolliday.5921:

For me, it basically boils down to this. They have about 6 months (maybe less) to fix the fiasco with Ascended gear. And that basically means making Ascended gear as easy-to-obtain as needed for proper non-grindy horizontal progression. Or in other words, about as easy to get as max-stat gear was in GW:Prophecies. Otherwise, I’m gone. This current BS is not what I was promised and not what I signed up for. If they want more of my money then they need to deliver what they advertised.

Why is max-stat gear so important to you when it by and large doesn’t affect your gameplay in the slightest?