Guild Wars 2

As per the title, yet another set of skills this patch, which previously had a unique functionality, are now unique in name alone. Why does ANet do this?

I loved spirit weapons the way they were, I loved having a summoner build on my guardian, it’s something not every class gets and now one fewer has it, for no good reason.

And what precedent does this set? And how low a bar for skill design?

If the changes from conjures don’t work out, are we going to see a patch in a few months where they too are changed to skills that you activate on a CD with no unique mechanic to their name? Are traps in danger of being genericized if players don’t pick them up more often? What else is in danger of being made vanilla just so it is easier for the developers to deal with?

Please stop doing this ANet, please retain the unique properties of our skills when balancing and redesigning and stop removing class content.

Because people think balance is the most important thing.

Goooooood luck with that. I learned a long time ago that a good many things tend to fall on deaf ears. This will be one of them sadly.

Its all about streamlining things that are rarely used. Sometimes it works, most other times its kind of hit and miss, and other times its a train wreck.

Haishao.6851:

Because people think balance is the most important thing.

I too think balance is of utmost importance, but pets exactly like the spirit weapons are balanced on another class, there is no reason they couldn’t balanced on the guardian.

Because spirit weapons were legit garbage maybe?

There is the need for balance, yes.
Trust me, I’ve said more than my fair share of curses about some of the changes ANet makes. I’ve reworked my build more times than I want to count based on nothing but balance changes and reworks of traits.
That being said though, I’m not the demographic they want to appeal to so what would make me interested in the game again isn’t happening. I wish you luck on getting them to change their ways. Truly.

They are updating it to balance it with upcoming expansion. It just like what happened during hot. Sad.

The problem with focusing on balance, is that without a system like, or similar in spirit to, the trinity, ultimate balance means everyone is exactly the same, just with different colors and particle effects.

zealex.9410:

Because spirit weapons were legit garbage maybe?

^ +1 to this. They are trash to begin with.

Conncept.7638:

Haishao.6851:

Because people think balance is the most important thing.

I too think balance is of utmost importance, but pets exactly like the spirit weapons are balanced on another class, there is no reason they couldn’t balanced on the guardian.

There’s no balance until everything are the same.

Blood.5607:

zealex.9410:

Because spirit weapons were legit garbage maybe?

^ +1 to this. They are trash to begin with.

Seriously, spirit weapons were barely useful and the number one requested utility line to update. The idea that someone is complaining that they are now a bit more useful…

Actually it’s not surprising at all.

Lokki.1092:

Blood.5607:

zealex.9410:

Because spirit weapons were legit garbage maybe?

^ +1 to this. They are trash to begin with.

Seriously, spirit weapons were barely useful and the number one requested utility line to update. The idea that someone is complaining that they are now a bit more useful…

Actually it’s not surprising at all.

I don’t even… where do people like you come from?

There isn’t a single word anywhere claiming they were “good” or balanced.

The very simple and clear point of the post, that you completely and inexplicably missed, is that, first they were enjoyable and unique, and second, all evidence points to it being possible that they could have been balanced without removing the original functionality that made them unique and enjoyable.

Not even a single mention of their own state of balance as an issue, at all, anywhere, anywhere at all. As in not mentioned anywhere. Nada. Nunca.

Is it clear enough for you to understand now?

Haishao.6851:

Conncept.7638:

Haishao.6851:

Because people think balance is the most important thing.

I too think balance is of utmost importance, but pets exactly like the spirit weapons are balanced on another class, there is no reason they couldn’t balanced on the guardian.

There’s no balance until everything are the same.

You’ve… completely contradicted yourself. Now only one class has multiple pets from utility skills with an active ability, who directly participate in combat. By your logic the game would be closer to balance with the guardian having pets, as now there is a class more unlike any other than it was before.

I’m not sure I understand your argument. Spirit weapons haven’t been unique for a long time. Heck, they arguably were never particularly unique. Sure, when the game launched they were undamageable, so they had at least one unique aspect to them, but they were still just summoned AI. Half the classes in the game use summons in some form or another.

The only thing really unique about them was “flavor”, the fact that they were sentient weapons which none of the other summons are. And that aspect is still there in their new incarnation as well. Its still the Guardian summoning sentient weapons of spirit energy into the world, they just fly out and do a single attack now instead of following the Guardian around for a bit.

If you just want to argue that you liked the way spirit weapons were, then fine. I did too. I still considered spirit weapons my “primary” build on my Guardian despite the fact that they were pretty bad. I mean, I never stick to one single build on any character, but I always have one that I like the most / go back to the most when I’m not flipping around for variety, and for my Guardian that was spirit weapons.

But to argue they were anything particularly unique or that they’ve made any big change towards making classes “generic” doesn’t really ring true. Spirit Weapons were only unique to Guardian specifically, because they don’t have any other summon skills. But if you’re only talking with regards to Guardian in a vacuum, then the new SW are also unique to Guardian. No other Guardian skills are ammo-based, long-range attacks with varying effects (one offense, one defense, one healing, one disruption / CC).

Electro.4173:

I’m not sure I understand your argument. Spirit weapons haven’t been unique for a long time. Heck, they arguably were never particularly unique. Sure, when the game launched they were undamageable, so they had at least one unique aspect to them, but they were still just summoned AI. Half the classes in the game use summons in some form or another.

The only thing really unique about them was “flavor”, the fact that they were sentient weapons which none of the other summons are. And that aspect is still there in their new incarnation as well. Its still the Guardian summoning sentient weapons of spirit energy into the world, they just fly out and do a single attack now instead of following the Guardian around for a bit.

If you just want to argue that you liked the way spirit weapons were, then fine. I did too. I still considered spirit weapons my “primary” build on my Guardian despite the fact that they were pretty bad. I mean, I never stick to one single build on any character, but I always have one that I like the most / go back to the most when I’m not flipping around for variety, and for my Guardian that was spirit weapons.

But to argue they were anything particularly unique or that they’ve made any big change towards making classes “generic” doesn’t really ring true. Spirit Weapons were only unique to Guardian specifically, because they don’t have any other summon skills. But if you’re only talking with regards to Guardian in a vacuum, then the new SW are also unique to Guardian. No other Guardian skills are ammo-based, long-range attacks with varying effects (one offense, one defense, one healing, one disruption / CC).

They were one of only two classes, out of nine, to have true blue summon skills.

The remainders all have hang ons like not being able to move, or attack, or even actively participate in combat in some cases. I don’t know what your bar for unique is or what you expect but that rates pretty high up on mine, especially in the context of an enclosed system like a game engine.

And as for not making them generic. What? They are now mechanically exactly the same as the following:
Deceptions
Mantras
Meditations
Physical Skills
Shouts
Wells
Consecrations
Most Legend skills
Rage skills
Elixirs
Gadgets
Gyros
Most Tool Belt skills
Pet skills
Survival skills
Stolen skills
Tricks
Arcane skills
Glamours
and Spectral skills

Those are all the utility skills in the game that operate on: You activate them, they fill a casting bar, and then you get an effect, without any other mechanics. And that’s not even going over the weapon skills, the majority of which would qualify. The number of skills in this game that are differentiated solely by a flavorful tagline, which only exists in reference to a single trait that effects them, is overwhelming, and frankly, a little bit ridiculous.

Meanwhile, real minion skills, were at a whopping total of nine, not sets, just skills. And now they’re down to five.

I will take usefulness and viability over “flavour” any time of the week.

Spirit weapons never seemed that unique to me. Weren’t they just summons that follow you, like ele’s elementals or mes’s illusions or necro’s various dead things?

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Spirit weapons never seemed that unique to me. Weren’t they just summons that follow you, like ele’s elementals or mes’s illusions or necro’s various dead things?

Yeh, basically this. Kek

zealex.9410:

I will take usefulness and viability over “flavour” any time of the week.

As would I, the former is indisputably more important than the latter. But that isn’t the point, the point is, was it necessary to remove this functionality? Was there some conflict of mechanics that didn’t allow minions to work on the guardian?

No there was not, they were perfectly mechanically sound. In fact they had the potential, if ever balanced correctly, to fill an incredibly important roll among the guardian skill set as sub-in allies. Guardians have an insane amount of buffs and utility which are tuned to work with a team to the point that they are largely worthless while solo. And all of that class content, enough for a half a dozen builds, instead goes completely unused in anything but structured group content like dungeons, PvP, and raids.

This is happening purely because of the pvp community.

The PVE community works together but the PVP community tends to be alone at certain points then complains because they can’t hack it against multiple foes at once.

If you want the homogenization to end then stop asking for crazy balance patches for PVP gameplay. It’s really that simple.

Conncept.7638:

zealex.9410:

I will take usefulness and viability over “flavour” any time of the week.

As would I, the former is indisputably more important than the latter. But that isn’t the point, the point is, was it necessary to remove this functionality? Was there some conflict of mechanics that didn’t allow minions to work on the guardian?

No there was not, they were perfectly mechanically sound. In fact they had the potential, if ever balanced correctly, to fill an incredibly important roll among the guardian skill set as sub-in allies. Guardians have an insane amount of buffs and utility which are tuned to work with a team to the point that they are largely worthless while solo. And all of that class content, enough for a half a dozen builds, instead goes completely unused in anything but structured group content like dungeons, PvP, and raids.

No…. the problem was, and always has been, that AI unreliable due to a mayrid of issues ranging from response time, path finding, and power scaling. For the longest time, Necro minions were not viable due to being incredibly fragile against even vet levels of AOE damage…. much less Champs or PvP, where they’re collective damage could have a notable impact. Ranger pets also suffered this same problem, except 25% of the class’s base line damage was rolled into the Pet by design.

With the Untargetted Damage reduction change, they become a source of sustain damage. But look at how the trait enhancements work for both Ranger pets and Necro Minions. Rangers had a whole trait line dedicated to boosting the base line stats of pets, making them perform better….. still poor by comparison to other classes, but not a total waste of time. Necro minions are weak individually, but collectively do respectable damage, and have a multitude of passive support effects that directly benefit the necro besides doing damage.

Spirit weapons have a weak base line damage, and plagued with the usual AI path finding problems. Their utility functions were slow and unwieldy, and consumed the weapon in the process…… so you had to choose between sub-par damage/support of the auto attack (which was slow to cycle, and couldn’t timed or directed), or use it as a consumable utility with a longer cooldown to other comparable, stronger, and traitable skills at their disposal. The utility functions of the weapons were arguably its only competitive aspect; yet it was never worth slotting given the huge number of better options a Guardian could run.

The only way to make Pet AI viable is to make its benefit completely passive, or to tune up their response time with an extensive control suite that would have to exceed what the Ranger has…. because as it stands, the controls on Ranger are barely adequate to keep the pet from becoming a liability. And to even accomplish that, it effectively monopolizes their primary class mechanics.

To “Balance” Spirit weapons, the whole companion/control system needs a complete overhaul and a whole new control scheme…… and if lead designer for Rangers, whose class mechanic IS Pet AI, can’t be kitten d to find a solution for the central theme of his design caused by a globally systemic underlying issue ….. then its just better to just migrate it to one of the 5 system that have proven to do a better job, and revisit the whole thing later once Irenio pulls his head out of his kitten and starts addressing an issue should had started addressing in 2013.

Lokki.1092:

Blood.5607:

zealex.9410:

Because spirit weapons were legit garbage maybe?

^ +1 to this. They are trash to begin with.

Seriously, spirit weapons were barely useful and the number one requested utility line to update. The idea that someone is complaining that they are now a bit more useful…

Actually it’s not surprising at all.

A big no no is changing game functionality. Only if a situation is dire should you want to resort to just changing something into something else.

I’m surprised this has to be explained.

zealex.9410:

I will take usefulness and viability over “flavour” any time of the week.

And what’s the likelihood that you yourself will use these new Spirit Weapons?

starlinvf.1358:

Conncept.7638:

zealex.9410:

I will take usefulness and viability over “flavour” any time of the week.

As would I, the former is indisputably more important than the latter. But that isn’t the point, the point is, was it necessary to remove this functionality? Was there some conflict of mechanics that didn’t allow minions to work on the guardian?

No there was not, they were perfectly mechanically sound. In fact they had the potential, if ever balanced correctly, to fill an incredibly important roll among the guardian skill set as sub-in allies. Guardians have an insane amount of buffs and utility which are tuned to work with a team to the point that they are largely worthless while solo. And all of that class content, enough for a half a dozen builds, instead goes completely unused in anything but structured group content like dungeons, PvP, and raids.

No…. the problem was, and always has been, that AI unreliable due to a mayrid of issues ranging from response time, path finding, and power scaling. For the longest time, Necro minions were not viable due to being incredibly fragile against even vet levels of AOE damage…. much less Champs or PvP, where they’re collective damage could have a notable impact. Ranger pets also suffered this same problem, except 25% of the class’s base line damage was rolled into the Pet by design.

With the Untargetted Damage reduction change, they become a source of sustain damage. But look at how the trait enhancements work for both Ranger pets and Necro Minions. Rangers had a whole trait line dedicated to boosting the base line stats of pets, making them perform better….. still poor by comparison to other classes, but not a total waste of time. Necro minions are weak individually, but collectively do respectable damage, and have a multitude of passive support effects that directly benefit the necro besides doing damage.

Spirit weapons have a weak base line damage, and plagued with the usual AI path finding problems. Their utility functions were slow and unwieldy, and consumed the weapon in the process…… so you had to choose between sub-par damage/support of the auto attack (which was slow to cycle, and couldn’t timed or directed), or use it as a consumable utility with a longer cooldown to other comparable, stronger, and traitable skills at their disposal. The utility functions of the weapons were arguably its only competitive aspect; yet it was never worth slotting given the huge number of better options a Guardian could run.

The only way to make Pet AI viable is to make its benefit completely passive, or to tune up their response time with an extensive control suite that would have to exceed what the Ranger has…. because as it stands, the controls on Ranger are barely adequate to keep the pet from becoming a liability. And to even accomplish that, it effectively monopolizes their primary class mechanics.

To “Balance” Spirit weapons, the whole companion/control system needs a complete overhaul and a whole new control scheme…… and if lead designer for Rangers, whose class mechanic IS Pet AI, can’t be kitten d to find a solution for the central theme of his design caused by a globally systemic underlying issue ….. then its just better to just migrate it to one of the 5 system that have proven to do a better job, and revisit the whole thing later once Irenio pulls his head out of his kitten and starts addressing an issue should had started addressing in 2013.

I, just… what?

You admit, in the very opening of your post, that minion necros have been balanced. Took a long time and a lot of work, even changes to the very system behind pets, and you even cite several of the changes which made it happen yourself. But it happened.

And then you proceed to dribble out four inexplicably contradictory paragraphs of changes Spirit weapons “must” have to be mechanically functional. While failing to address the fact that you yourself admitted to several pet mechanics have already been balanced, without receiving any of your suggested changes, which can’t be true given that one of those balance sets is the Necromancer Minions, which are functionally identical to the Guardians old spirit weapons.

I’m sorry and I’m sure that you would enjoy these changes, but none of what you’ve listed is necessary for balance or mechanical viability. It’d be neat, but not necessary.

Leo G.4501:

zealex.9410:

I will take usefulness and viability over “flavour” any time of the week.

And what’s the likelihood that you yourself will use these new Spirit Weapons?

Depends on how finely tuned they are each to its role. The bow is already great for wvw. Hammer and shield need some buffs and maybe does the dps of the sword.

Necro minions to be targeted next?

I am going to miss the old weapons.. not that I used them much.. but I am a big fan of minion mechanics..

Naturally Necro Minions are the best of this but I love the idea of making other summoner classes based on their respective summons.. ele elementals.. ranger spirits.. engi turrets, mesmer phantasms and guardian weapons..

Sad to see Guardian loose theirs..

I’m still hoping ele’s get a summoner elite spec one day that gives them more elemental summons with permanent duration’s like minions are.. that would be awesome.

Many people severely underestimate how useful NPC allies are.