Guild Wars 2

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Still, I have to wonder what their metrics tell them. Obviously if we just went by the forum consensus the sky would be falling, hell would be frozen over, and the world ending in general. However, from the activity in game, it doesn’t seem that way at all. Yes, they stir up the anthill often, but maybe they aren’t as out of touch as we would like to think.

You raise a very valid point, and I don’t want to come across like I am simplistically suggesting that ANet “listen” to every player request, but this is more art than science, in my opinion, so nailing it down is problematic.

I do recognize that when Dev and player expectations are in harmony, beautiful and wonderful things can happen, but there’s a lot more discord between ANet and their players relative to other MMO’s I have played. I think it arises mostly from the fact that

ANet tends to be more pushy in regards to their development output always giving their “vision” primacy at the cost of leaving the players with something they didn’t exactly ask for…it can all be fine, except when it isn’t.

Kuldebar.1897:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Still, I have to wonder what their metrics tell them. Obviously if we just went by the forum consensus the sky would be falling, hell would be frozen over, and the world ending in general. However, from the activity in game, it doesn’t seem that way at all. Yes, they stir up the anthill often, but maybe they aren’t as out of touch as we would like to think.

You raise a very valid point, and I don’t want to come across like I am simplistically suggesting that ANet “listen” to every player request, but this is more art than science, in my opinion, so nailing it down is problematic.

I do recognize that when Dev and player expectations are in harmony, beautiful and wonderful things can happen, but there’s a lot more discord between ANet and their players relative to other MMO’s I have played. I think it arises mostly from the fact that

ANet tends to be more pushy in regards to their development output always giving their “vision” primacy at the cost of leaving the players with something they didn’t exactly ask for…it can all be fine, except when it isn’t.

Well, we have told them to be true to their vision on several occasions. But I can’t blame them for doing so either. They’ve repeatedly stated that they don’t want to just like every other MMO out there. (Which sometimes leaves me scratching my head, but that’s beside the point)

Still…to be a fly on the wall in that studio….

Filaha.1678:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

What they do with them, whether we like it or not, does not negate the fact that it was all asked for.

So ArenaNet is the monkey’s paw of the game industry?

. . . is this, well, ignoring things which get added or changed and don’t cause problems or massive complaints? Mail carrier changing, account-bound dyes, World Boss bonus chests?

Kuldebar.1897:

I do recognize that when Dev and player expectations are in harmony, beautiful and wonderful things can happen, but there’s a lot more discord between ANet and their players relative to other MMO’s I have played. I think it arises mostly from the fact that
ANet tends to be more pushy in regards to their development output always giving their “vision” primacy at the cost of leaving the players with something they didn’t exactly ask for…it can all be fine, except when it isn’t.

I’m not trying to be snarky, but more just questioning:

Were you around for “The Vision” era of EverQuest? When they continuously referred to it without actually saying what it was, while tweaking the early game? Heck, in the second expansion they invented a “dungeon” zone which had a boss progression but if you completed it the zone became nigh worthless to run again . . . forever, for everyone in the server, and almost never to be useful again.

This is without getting into “it’s not broken” stuff (mostly quests) being able to have proof it’s broken, and proof later on it was patched poorly to not be broken. Or items which were completely removed from first release because Vision.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Well, we have told them to be true to their vision on several occasions. But I can’t blame them for doing so either. They’ve repeatedly stated that they don’t want to just like every other MMO out there. (Which sometimes leaves me scratching my head, but that’s beside the point)

Still…to be a fly on the wall in that studio….

Well, that’s the rub isn’kitten Many players feel like ANet didn’t stick to their vision, at least the one their marketing department publicized.

But, I can deal with the possibility they have their own proprietary, in-house “vision” plan they aren’t sharing publicly; but again it is all in how it pushed out, where the rubber meets the road:

The point at which a theory or idea is put to a practical test. -Oxford Dictionary

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Were you around for “The Vision” era of EverQuest? When they continuously referred to it without actually saying what it was, while tweaking the early game? Heck, in the second expansion they invented a “dungeon” zone which had a boss progression but if you completed it the zone became nigh worthless to run again . . . forever, for everyone in the server, and almost never to be useful again.

This is without getting into “it’s not broken” stuff (mostly quests) being able to have proof it’s broken, and proof later on it was patched poorly to not be broken. Or items which were completely removed from first release because Vision.

I was playing UO (very briefly) and DAoC extensively around that time perhaps.

There have been many grand experiments throughout the years, that is for sure.

Horizons: Empire of Istaria comes to mind, there were quite a bit of challenges that sprang up over the claiming of land/real estate, etc.

Kuldebar.1897:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Well, we have told them to be true to their vision on several occasions. But I can’t blame them for doing so either. They’ve repeatedly stated that they don’t want to just like every other MMO out there. (Which sometimes leaves me scratching my head, but that’s beside the point)

Still…to be a fly on the wall in that studio….

Well, that’s the rub isn’kitten Many players feel like ANet didn’t stick to their vision, at least the one their marketing department publicized.

But, I can deal with the possibility they have their own proprietary, in-house “vision” plan they aren’t sharing publicly; but again it is all in how it pushed out, where the rubber meets the road:

The point at which a theory or idea is put to a practical test. -Oxford Dictionary

I won’t argue that they definitely strayed from the initial outline with some things. Won’t argue that. Things change. Sometimes I wonder though if we perhaps misinterpreted the vision they presented, or just didn’t full comprehend the bigger picture because we lack details. Which leads to that rub. We envision ‘a’ while they actually envision ‘b’.

Kuldebar.1897:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Were you around for “The Vision” era of EverQuest? When they continuously referred to it without actually saying what it was, while tweaking the early game? Heck, in the second expansion they invented a “dungeon” zone which had a boss progression but if you completed it the zone became nigh worthless to run again . . . forever, for everyone in the server, and almost never to be useful again.

This is without getting into “it’s not broken” stuff (mostly quests) being able to have proof it’s broken, and proof later on it was patched poorly to not be broken. Or items which were completely removed from first release because Vision.

I was playing UO (very briefly) and DAoC extensively around that time perhaps.

There have been many grand experiments throughout the years, that is for sure.

Horizons: Empire of Istaria comes to mind, there were quite a bit of challenges that sprang up over the claiming of land/real estate, etc.

I played EQ from launch until sometime around . . . I think it was “Gates of Discord”, but it’s blurred quite a bit. I know the last expansion I bought was the “Lost Dungeons” and I felt so cheated I let someone else get me the next one for a present. And then felt bad because I wasn’t playing anymore anyway . . .

It can be summed up in the same “problem” which is seen and talked about here with ArenaNet and Guild Wars 2, though with EverQuest it was one man who was the Visionary and took the lightning for a lot of “the Vision” cracks. Here it’s sort of doled out among the company broadly and shared.

The path is one we both know instinctively – there are questionable decisions made, and the only (or final) defense offered is “this is the way we want the game / this is as intended”.

Minor sidenote – Mind you this is where “broken as intended” entered my lexicon from the EQ forums – either because something didn’t work and it was denied often . . . or it was broken in the other sense of gaming vernacular . . . such as NPCs of one class having an alpha-strike nuke which could deal incredible damage since it scaled up well with level. Assumedly they only got it once for a period of time, but if they reset properly then so did the ability . . .

Eventually anytime something was put in which was a little wonky, it just got laid on “the Vision” by many people. Or when a decision was made which people didn’t like . . . you get the picture.

It’s somewhat comforting, in a sense, to see it creeping in here – EQ still is running today. If GW2 can have that kind of longevity . . .

FalconDance.1637:

@Vayne

Ok, I get it. You disagree and believe me to not even have a right to make any comments about the Living Story since I gave up on it after the first few episodes when it was a buggy hot mess. You believe I am mistaken in nearly everything I have given as my own experience and observations. That’s ok. We can agree to disagree if you feel this need to dismiss me.

Do I prefer GW1 over 2? While it really is comparing apples and oranges, and GW1 had/has its own challenges and bugs, yes. There are several reasons for this preference, not the least of which is that it is a playable game.

I hold fast in my belief that Anet is demonstrating a disregard, perhaps even a distaste, for its veteran core group with its insistence in continuing the path it’s on with little emphasis to actually fixing long-standing bugs or introducing meaningful content. That is my belief, and I am entitled to it just as, sir/madam, you are yours.

And since I’m a veteran in every sense of the word, I think that some veterans are trying to speak for other veterans. I don’t feel that Anet is demonstrating diregard for us. If nothing else there have been a lot of ties to Guild Wars 1 in the story lately that a lot of Guild Wars 1 fans seem to like. But talking for veterans and not including me in their number is sort of like me speaking for men as a group when different men have different experiences.

I’m not trying to negate YOUR experience. But I’m as much as veteran as anyone here, and I know other veterans as well. What’s so hard about talking about what you feel personally, instead of trying to make it a group thing?

FalconDance.1637:

I hold fast in my belief that Anet is demonstrating a disregard, perhaps even a distaste, for its veteran core group with its insistence in continuing the path it’s on with little emphasis to actually fixing long-standing bugs or introducing meaningful content. That is my belief, and I am entitled to it just as, sir/madam, you are yours.

Couching such a statement as an “I believe” is sophistry — intended or not. Your wording is such that you are making a statement about ANet’s intent, not expressing a belief. You don’t know their intent and neither do I.

Your personal feeling of being disregarded is likely caused by your dislike for ANet’s game development direction. Based on current forum trends, it would be accurate to say that “some veteran players” share that feeling. However, it would be inaccurate to say that GW2’s “veteran core group” feels this way. GW2’s veteran core group is not a united demographic and not all of them feel that way.

Wording matters in debates. The wording you used is a standard tactic in game forums to make one’s position seem more important by appearing to speak for more people than yourself. You may not have intended that, but that’s how it comes across.

FalconDance.1637:

I hold fast in my belief that Anet is demonstrating a disregard, perhaps even a distaste, for its veteran core group with its insistence in continuing the path it’s on with little emphasis to actually fixing long-standing bugs or introducing meaningful content. That is my belief, and I am entitled to it just as, sir/madam, you are yours.

Dude….. it makes sense!

They don’t want veteran players playing because we play more…. we play every day, and we put strain on the servers.

We earn most of the things we want from the gemstore by converting gold to gems…..

They want everyone to be casuals…. so that we log in once or twice a week, and occasionally buy a gemstore item with cash or something.

The only thing that really irks me in regards to the thread header is the counter-intuitive or idiomatic changes that have lead to a less enjoyable or rewarding experience for many new players. Personally I doubt I will ever re-roll but besides that, and on a more personal note , I have a friend who plays lots of games online.

Her fix is RTS/FPS but she gets bored and finds it stale at times. Maybe 18 months ago while chilling out having a few brews and talking gaming she mentioned the fact she was bored with both genres and wanted to try something else out. Being the MMORPG fan I am I mentioned GW2 and that she should give it a try. I was knees-deep into the game at the time, it was new and just awesome all the way to 80.

Not being into the genre she was initially hesitant, fair call, but took the dive into the weird world of MMORPG and we had a blast playing the game for a good month or two until we both took time out from gaming for various reasons.

About 2 months ago I got a mail from her saying she was online, keen to play but wanted to re-roll, not liking her initial character class choice all those months ago. No prob, I was happy to help out and go questing.

That lasted two days.

So infuriated with the restrictive and anything-but-fun changes, when compared to our gaming together 18 or so months ago, she retired from GW2 shortly afterwards out of sheer frustration at the restrictions that had now been placed at every corner.

To a completely new player now these maybe minor semantics, unnoticed because they have little comprehension and zero experience of the vanilla release state and leveling experience but having had a friends, new to the genre, enjoyment and longevity in the game directly effected by these changes speaks volumes to me, all be it subjectively.

Imo it’s a regression from an open and free-formed leveling experience to a hand-holding, restrictive and fetch quest for skills/access to mechanics/game-play most of which should be given to the player at lvl 1.

Like it was.

How many of you revolutionaries starting all these nonsense threads are sitting behind desks in offices with the Blizzard logo shining brightly on your ID badges?

I know the first thing I did when I saw all of this tutorial pop-up I went looking for a way to disable it (First thing I do in any game.) and there’s not even an option.

I’ll also say that I don’t care if people farm cof or any other dungeon. Why should I?. I personally don’t farm it either. But one of the main reasons I made 9 80 characters was so I could alt hop for rewards. Now i can run all paths over and over and over again alllll day on any toon and can’t make any more tokens than a few hundred. great one piece of armor for a day of potential farming. I actually do enjoy farming. The one game I’ve always gone back to SilkRoad is one of the most grind intensive games out there and one of the most enjoyable for me. But I’d rather put my time into just one good game. Quite nerfing our efforts.

Mo Mo.1947:

How many of you revolutionaries starting all these nonsense threads are sitting behind desks in offices with the Blizzard logo shining brightly on your ID badges?

Close, if not equal, to zero.

NewTrain.7549:

Mo Mo.1947:

How many of you revolutionaries starting all these nonsense threads are sitting behind desks in offices with the Blizzard logo shining brightly on your ID badges?

Close, if not equal, to zero.

Well, depends. Sometimes I play in my home office after work, and the best way to relax is to boot up Diablo 2 and just run rampant for a bit. So sometimes the Blizzard logo reflects off my badge from work.

. . . that counts, right?

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, it would be inaccurate to say that GW2’s “veteran core group” feels this way. GW2’s veteran core group is not a united demographic and not all of them feel that way.

Wording matters in debates. The wording you used is a standard tactic in game forums to make one’s position seem more important by appearing to speak for more people than yourself. You may not have intended that, but that’s how it comes across.

and @Vayne

I have not – nor would I ever – claimed to speak for the entire veteran core group. I do not claim to speak for my guildmates in this matter although many do feel similarly. As a military veteran, I would not claim to speak for that group, either.

What I said was that it was my belief that disregard for the group existed. That does not equate to my saying the group believes that. The fact that you, Vayne, state you do not feel the same way demonstrates that two veteran players do not necessarily have the same experience or outlook. You do not feel there is a disregard, and your view is just as valid as mine, regardless of agreement or not, and should be respected.

Yes, wording is important. This is why I was careful to say that it was how I felt, not how others may/may not and gave examples of my reasoning. To try and twist my words in any way beyond what they said, IndigoSundown, is also a standard forum tactic to invalidate someone’s viewpoint with whom you disagree. You may not have meant it that way, but that is how it comes across.