Guild Wars 2

EDIT: For background, this was originally me throwing a temper tantrum in the general forum “for ranger awareness” so to speak, and was moved to the ranger forum after a while. It doesn’t make as much sense here.

Anet devs, do you consider ranger to be the newbie class, that gets people through content without really trying, but has a very hard, low cap?

Consider that ranger is represented at 0% or close to 0% in the top competitive teams for PvP and PvE, and is unwelcome in WvW guilds to the point that “no rangers accepted” is a common statement seen on guild sites.

Can we assume you intend for the profession to be “intro to GW2”? Should serious players move on after a while?

I am playing a ranger norn from day one of this game (from Sep 1, 2012, to be exact). This hottie is still my favorite char and will be so even in future, love her to bits. :-) My second main is a thief lady, which I love playing as well. I have played the whole Living World Season 2 with my thief and she will also be my main during HoT – she has an important mission to fulfill in the djungle (connected to her back story). Then I have an elementalist and two guardians as well which I play somewhat frequently. Why should I ‘move on’ from playing my beloved ranger norn if I have so much fun with this class? I simply dont care about all these self-proclaimed game troopers who think they know how people should play this game …

it’s not about what you like, aurora, or your roleplay phantasies it’s about (numerical and mechanical) facts.
gameplay and fun doesn’t matter when it comes to efficiency and numbers.

what the goals for ranger were i don’t know. i guess you had to have that class since it is a classic one in nearly every rpg (the usual treehugger with bow and pet). i have never played one since they have always been subpar.

… then you havent really read what I stated above, zaced. I am playing different classes in PvE since at least two years back, which gives me a direct comparison. Personally, I haven’t experienced ranger to be in any way subpar to thief, for instance. At least not if you are playing general PvE content. And I know other folks who play f***ing good rangers in ranked PvP as well. :-) Its different when it comes to speed-clear dungeon groups, but this is another track, imho, as dungeon mechanics (the bosses in particular) have been unidirectional / monotonous / very unsatisfying since start – which favors certain armor / weapon stats and gameplay. But this has nothing to do with the question if you should or should not play a ranger. My answer: just play the class (or classes) you have most fun playing, dont listen to what others want you to play.

wait, so first you’re talking about pve, where ranger is completely useless and thief is just a skipmachine (i’m not talking about open world since that can be easily done even with a naked character) and then you’re switching to pvp, where ranger is a long range noobstomper and a free kill for anybody that knows what they do.
there is a reason rangers are not in any kind of meta.
pve: thief does way more damage and that in melee. people hate ranged in pve for a reason. thief enables you to skip while ranger (or his pet) enables you to break aggro.
pvp: i can’t think of a class that has any problems with rangers. the only way for rangers to deal damage in pvp is if you ignore them. one pull, one reflect, one gapcloser, a tiny bit of control and byebye bowdude.

AuroraW.7149:

And I know other folks who play f***ing good rangers in ranked PvP as well. :-)

And yet there is a 0% ranger rate on top PvP teams. Zero. Out of 8. And those other 7 have multiples.

And then you meet a good condi ranger and die.

ragnarokda.1805:

And then you meet a good condi ranger and die.

No you DO NOT. You don’t meet one. Because there is a close to 0% ranger rate in the top, what, 30 PvP teams.

zaced.7948:

it’s not about what you like, aurora, or your roleplay phantasies it’s about (numerical and mechanical) facts.
gameplay and fun doesn’t matter when it comes to efficiency and numbers.

what the goals for ranger were i don’t know. i guess you had to have that class since it is a classic one in nearly every rpg (the usual treehugger with bow and pet). i have never played one since they have always been subpar.

What percentage of the playerbase do you really think cares aobut numerical and mechanical facts. I’m guessing it’s a much smaller percentage than you think it is.

no, i just cleanse, cc and kill since a condiranger does not stack up enough pressure for me to not be able to easily get rid of those conditions since they are not many and herefore easily removed. close to zero cc to keep me from healing or cleansing and all the skills are so highly telegraphed that i’d actually just dodge or block them. for a condiranger to effectively apply condis they need another control class to keep their targets from dodging.

@vayne: it’s a very small percentage, i’d bet it’s not more than 10%. apart from me not playing with scrubs because i lack the patience for that even if somebody doesn’t care that rangers are bad they’re still bad. perception doesn’t change a fact. just because you have sunglasses on doesn’t mean the world is suddenly darker objectively.

Vayne.8563:

What percentage of the playerbase do you really think cares aobut numerical and mechanical facts. I’m guessing it’s a much smaller percentage than you think it is.

Look at the post subject again. If all you want is fun, perhaps ranger is for you. If you want to be a top competitor in PvP, WvW or PvE, ranger is not for you.

Ranger is fun, I have several thousand hours logged on one. This is not the point.

No one puts condi ranger in the corner.

Let’s refocus this:

Consider that ranger is represented at 0% or close to 0% in the top competitive teams for PvP and PvE, and is unwelcome in WvW guilds to the point that “no rangers accepted” is a common statement seen on guild sites.

Fluffball.8307:

Let’s refocus this:

Consider that ranger is represented at 0% or close to 0% in the top competitive teams for PvP and PvE, and is unwelcome in WvW guilds to the point that “no rangers accepted” is a common statement seen on guild sites.

Given the fact the the ranger is one of the most popular professions I’m not really sure how this matters. That is to say, at least four professions, probably five, are less popular than the ranger.

Vayne.8563:

Given the fact the the ranger is one of the most popular professions I’m not really sure how this matters. That is to say, at least four professions, probably five, are less popular than the ranger.

Did you read the OP? I think Anet views ranger as a newbie class. It has been overwhelmingly and unobjectively rejected by the competitive community in every single game mode. Only in open world PvE does it flourish.

Anet doesn’t think anything about Ranger, since we have been ignored for 3 years. Ranger doesn’t excell in any category since everything that it can do is outperformed by another class in that regard. We have many issues that have been attempted to be addressed; although, any changes for professions are based on a PvP perspective, so we can’t expect any meaningful changes to occur. Alot of Rangers are hoping for Druid to save the class, since Anet doesn’t care about fixing the core proffesion.

@ vayne: yet still you don’t understand that this is not about popularity but about viability in high end gameplay. an ambitious pvp player doesn’t care if 10 billion scrubs like kitten ing around in the open world with their bearbows.
engineer is probably the least popular profession in the game yet i’d rather have one engineer than two rangers on my team.

I think there is an underlying stigma that the players who primarily play ranger are inherently bad at the game.

In meta dungeon groups a ranger is an acceptable replacement for either the thief or the engi depending on the dungeon. That’s pretty cool.

As for sPvP I realized something the other day while fiddling with build optimization and this was that ranger seems to have a lot of fluffy poop traits. There were several instances where I was just choosing traits that were just okay because the other options didn’t really sound that attractive. I kept saying out loud to myself… well I could do without this whole trait line and still play as effectively with just two specs slotted. Here’s to hoping druid does SOMETHING to add to our usefulness in pvp.

I started thinking that there had to be a role ranger could fill, and that’s true there are ones they can fill, but the problem is that other classes can do it better…. Albeit in some circumstances slightly better, but better nonetheless.

I think the class needs a new focus. Something that can be an attractive addition to team play (pve and pvp) but that doesn’t diminish what people who play them still love about that class.

Fluffball.8307:

Vayne.8563:

Given the fact the the ranger is one of the most popular professions I’m not really sure how this matters. That is to say, at least four professions, probably five, are less popular than the ranger.

Did you read the OP? I think Anet views ranger as a newbie class. It has been overwhelmingly and unobjectively rejected by the competitive community in every single game mode. Only in open world PvE does it flourish.

I’m sure all six of you are very sad. It’s still one of the most popular classes in the game. You may see it as a beginner class, but I don’t consider myself a beginner and a ranger is my main. It’s not relevant to me that a small percentage of the playerbase feels it’s not worth it. Anet would better spend their time making less appealing professions more appealing. Far fewer engineers out there than rangers. And necros have a pretty legit reason for grievance as well, particularly in PvE.

zaced.7948:

@ vayne: yet still you don’t understand that this is not about popularity but about viability in high end gameplay. an ambitious pvp player doesn’t care if 10 billion scrubs like kitten ing around in the open world with their bearbows.
engineer is probably the least popular profession in the game yet i’d rather have one engineer than two rangers on my team.

I understand that I’ve done all the content in this game on a ranger. That’s what I understand.

… one of these useless discussions, again … if you dont like playing ranger class – out of whatever reasons, dont do it, just play some other class you like more. But please let others play their favorite classes as well. What irks me about these tiring “Ranger discussions” is that a group with explicit minority interests is consistently complaining to Anet about a class they are not even playing. On the other hand, there are thousands of players out there who love playing their ranger.

Also to add, unless your bar is full of cleanses, condi ranger is pretty kitten deadly and has plenty of cc. Soooooo I dunno what condi rangers you’re fighting…

God I hate long bow rangers… So boring and predictable. Don’t get me wrong, I have seen good ones and consider myself to be fairly handy with LB/GS beasty survival build. Hey newb ranger on my team… you know you can swap your weapon, right?

AuroraW.7149:

… one of these useless discussions, again … if you dont like playing ranger class – out of whatever reasons, dont do it, just play some other class you like more. But please let others play their favorite classes as well. What irks me about these tiring “Ranger discussions” is that a group with explicit minority interests is considtently complaining to Anet about a class they are not even playing. On the other hand, there are thousands of players out there who love playing their ranger.

I probably have several thousand more hours on ranger than you do. That’s what makes this topic relevant. My main is irrelevant in every single competitive mode.

Again because you and lot of others don’t get it:

RANGER IS FUN. IT IS VIABLE AND USED AT A ROUGHLY 0% RATE IN ALL HIGH LEVEL COMPETITIVE GAME MODES.

Opening question was: “Does Anet view this a newbie class?” meaning are they unwilling to make it competitive.

Vayne.8563:

zaced.7948:

@ vayne: yet still you don’t understand that this is not about popularity but about viability in high end gameplay. an ambitious pvp player doesn’t care if 10 billion scrubs like kitten ing around in the open world with their bearbows.
engineer is probably the least popular profession in the game yet i’d rather have one engineer than two rangers on my team.

I understand that I’ve done all the content in this game on a ranger. That’s what I understand.

have you also done that content as one of the best? i doubt it since as ranger you simply can’t.

ragnarokda.1805:

Also to add, unless your bar is full of cleanses, condi ranger is pretty kitten deadly and has plenty of cc. Soooooo I dunno what condi rangers you’re fighting…

i would like you to name me those ccs. and those better be hard cc because i can cleanse through immob.

to all the bearbow hippies out there complaining about this thread: this is a legit question and you don’t even let it sink in because you’re all up in arms because you’re kitten that your favorite class gets criticized.
this is not about you and how much you like to play him, this is about facts, numbers and comparison to other classes. not popularity, not fun, not preference.
just the simple question: if playing in a world tournament or even just esl tournament or even attempting to break a new speedclear record would you as a top player (not you random pve kitten s) pick ranger over anything else.
and the answer is no, high end players don’t play ranger.
AGAIN: if you like playing ranger, gtfo. this is a topic for those that play at maximum efficiency disregarding the class or personal preferences and it’s about why ranger isn’t picked at all compared to other classes by exactly those people (meaning: not you).

the answer to ops question is: yes, ranger is easy ranged pewpew but not viable in any high end gameplay.

Okay, so highly competitive teams don’t use rangers. That is a very small fraction of the player base. Which is probably why they don’t seem to, at least openly, care about ranger representation in what we can loosely call an “e-sport”.

You could always form your own team, fill a slot with a ranger and give the class a purposeful role on your team, and maybe be competitive with said team? I don’t know how people start that crap up so that’s all on you but it’s possible, right?

ragnarokda.1805:

Okay, so highly competitive teams don’t use rangers. That is a very small fraction of the player base. Which is probably why they don’t seem to, at least openly, care about ranger representation in what we can loosely call an “e-sport”.

You could always form your own team, fill a slot with a ranger and give the class a purposeful role on your team, and maybe be competitive with said team? I don’t know how people start that crap up so that’s all on you but it’s possible, right?

So you do agree you think anet view ranger as a newbie class and doesn’t consider it viable for the top 20% or so of player competition?

Just a reminder:
If you want to talk about rangers use in the WTS, or their use in DnT speed runs, or in HOPE’s zerg busting, this topic is for you. If you are concerned that ranger is a fun class to kill the shadow behemoth with, this topic is not for you.

ragnarokda.1805:

You could always form your own team, fill a slot with a ranger and give the class a purposeful role on your team, and maybe be competitive with said team? I don’t know how people start that crap up so that’s all on you but it’s possible, right?

It has been tried, at a VERY high level by VERY high skilled players, and it failed.

Ranger was used in a WTS. It’s viable, but there just isn’t any reason to play on a team atm.

Eurantien.4632:

Ranger was used in a WTS. It’s viable, but there just isn’t any reason to play on a team atm.

By whom? Oh wait you.

Eura is the officially highest ranked ranger we’ve ever had. I’m here to tell ya’ll it doesn’t work for PvE speed runs and it doesnt get asked to participate in high end WvW.

in pvp if you have a ranger on your team you have to build your team around him and your formation is easily disruptable. why bother with that when you can roll two ddceles, a medguard or elebuster necro, a thief or mesmer roamer and a control engi or warrior which are all way more universal, do way more sustained dmg/don’t die if you just look at them and do anything the ranger does (be it ranged dps or conditions) way better than the ranger does.

from what i know eurantien or whatever he’s called was the only one to make ranger work somehow.

edit: seems like he just joined the thread.

Fluffball.8307:

Eurantien.4632:

Ranger was used in a WTS. It’s viable, but there just isn’t any reason to play on a team atm.

By whom? Oh wait you.

Eura is the officially highest ranked ranger we’ve ever had. I’m here to tell ya’ll it doesn’t work for PvE speed runs and it doesnt get asked to participate in high end WvW.

High end WvW? lol. What exactly is that? Bigger zerg?

Rangers work fine as roamers, and lots of people use them.

Fluffball.8307:

If you want to talk about rangers use in the WTS, or their use in DnT speed runs, or in HOPE’s zerg busting, this topic is for you. If you are concerned that ranger is a fun class to kill the shadow behemoth with, this topic is not for you.

Who is this thread for? The OP does nothing other than to address ANet (which is forbidden on the forums) with foregone conclusions, without any room for discussion. Are you just looking for nodding heads?

Agreed. Fluffball is only looking for like-minded individuals. Not a discussion.

Vayne.8563:

Rangers work fine as roamers, and lots of people use them.

Like me? r80 pvp champ hunter, roamer for over 3 years before the LB buff? Are you talking about me?

Vayne.8563:

High end WvW? lol. What exactly is that? Bigger zerg?

That’s not really how high end WvW works, no. No it’s not. This topic is NOT about ranger popularity and it’s not for people who don’t know the basics. If you can’t answer who won the most recent WTS, if you don’t know who DnT or HOPE is, this topic isn’t for you. Sorta repeating myself here.

Zeidrich.8435:

Agreed. Fluffball is only looking for like-minded individuals. Not a discussion.

How would you contribute an answer to the fact that rangers aren’t used in the top 20% of any given game mode? Keep in mind the original question of “Is this a newbie class that vets are expected to move on from?”

If you can answer that I am very open minded.

Fluffball.8307:

Zeidrich.8435:

Agreed. Fluffball is only looking for like-minded individuals. Not a discussion.

How would you contribute an answer to the fact that rangers aren’t used in the top 20% of any given game mode? Keep in mind the original question of “Is this a newbie class that vets are expected to move on from?”

If you can answer that I am very open minded.

I’d say you’re making up numbers, because you don’t know the top 20% and can’t prove it’s 20%. And I still maintain there are professions that have as much right to complain that aren’t being played as often as ranger. Why is that less meaningful?

Vayne.8563:

I’d say you’re making up numbers, because you don’t know the top 20% and can’t prove it’s 20%. And I still maintain there are professions that have as much right to complain that aren’t being played as often as ranger. Why is that less meaningful?

Oh joyousness, I can actually prove it. That’s what this all about. There are regular PvE and PvP tournaments officially held by Arena Net. Do you want me to pull the ranger numbers for the past 12 months? Cuz you will be severely disappointed.

Fluffball.8307:

Vayne.8563:

I’d say you’re making up numbers, because you don’t know the top 20% and can’t prove it’s 20%. And I still maintain there are professions that have as much right to complain that aren’t being played as often as ranger. Why is that less meaningful?

Oh joyousness, I can actually prove it. That’s what this all about. There are regular PvE and PvP tournaments officially held by Arena Net. Do you want me to pull the ranger numbers for the past 12 months? Cuz you will be severely disappointed.

The top 20% PvE tournaments? lol okay then.

Are you saying that the top 20% of the playerbase appear in those tournaments. Maybe you’re talking about the top 2-3%?

Vayne.8563:

The top 20% PvE tournaments? lol okay then.

Are you saying that the top 20% of the playerbase appear in those tournaments. Maybe you’re talking about the top 2-3%?

Would you feel more comfortable asking the hundreds of competitive players in the dungeon forums about this? Let’s count the guilds that run rangers for competition? DnT? SC? KING?

This conversation is over. You’ve never heard of what I’m talking about in any of the 3 formats.

Fluffball.8307:

Vayne.8563:

I’d say you’re making up numbers, because you don’t know the top 20% and can’t prove it’s 20%. And I still maintain there are professions that have as much right to complain that aren’t being played as often as ranger. Why is that less meaningful?

Oh joyousness, I can actually prove it. That’s what this all about. There are regular PvE and PvP tournaments officially held by Arena Net. Do you want me to pull the ranger numbers for the past 12 months? Cuz you will be severely disappointed.

You must be pro because i never get invited to pve tournaments…

Wanze.8410:

You must be pro because i never get invited to pve tournaments…

Yes you do you would just fail horribly, check the dungeon forums. Gems and such to be won, sponsored by Anet.

What’s ironic is that this kind of thread will be duly ignored by ANet , because of it’s unbecoming tone. They know their game better than you think, have their own agenda, and will probably pay attention to legitimate issues. If I was concerned about the current place of the Ranger in GW2, at least I would make my points in a more civil, rational, and less confrontational manner, lest the developers just ignore my words as just a baseless rant.

Besides, Ranger is fun but also an effective Profession, as proved by good players-I don’t understand why it must be so mutually exclusive for some people to accept. People should get over the ridiculous and non-universal “bearbow” stigma.

Star Ace.5207:

What’s ironic is that this kind of thread will be duly ignored by ANet , because of it’s unbecoming tone.

It’s not ironic. I’ve been playing ranger for several years now. There have been a lot of extremely well presented arguments by players at the extreme highest levels (including Eura, the only ranger to play on a WTS team who made a brief appearance in this thread) detailing very specific things that need changed. You can see the “0%” results we have today. Ya…………..

It’s not ironic. It’s frustration.

Vayne.8563:

It’s still one of the most popular classes in the game.

Prove it.

Vayne.8563:

I’d say you’re making up numbers, because you don’t know the top 20% and can’t prove it’s 20%.

And while you’re at it, provide context that details total hours spent on the character as the amount of newbies rolling a ranger vs the amount of people still playing said ranger 300+ hours later are two very different sets of data.

Fluffball.8307:

Wanze.8410:

You must be pro because i never get invited to pve tournaments…

Yes you do you would just fail horribly, check the dungeon forums. Gems and such to be won, sponsored by Anet.

And did any ranger team compete and lose horribly?

Edit: Gonna lets this being moved ot the ranger forum, so i dont have to see it here.

Given the state of PvP balance over the past 12-15 months, I don’t think anet is taking meta builds into consideration.

I mean its obvious from the results that they don’t just sit there and say “well ranger is not in any teams, so lets do something to get them there”. They just don’t seem to work like that.

Which is a shame because its the only way they can make all classes viable.

They need to decide that there are X number of roles, and classes 1,2,3 can all do role one just as well as each other. 4,5,6 do role 2…etc.

Asking a question when you’ve already made up your mind and just want to berate people who have different opinions is childish. Man up and make a statement, or accept answers to a “question.”

As for your statement, it’s seems to be this:

“I think rangers are UP in PVP, which is why I think they don’t appear at the high end, and I want to see them buffed with ability to either apply more solo pressure, more survivability, and/or more group aid.”

To an extent, you have a point. But you also don’t seem to know that, historically, the ranger class is always popular, always initially powerful then nerfed, and always left in a state of “oh well screw it” by every… MMO… EVER.

Fluffball.8307:

Vayne.8563:

The top 20% PvE tournaments? lol okay then.

Are you saying that the top 20% of the playerbase appear in those tournaments. Maybe you’re talking about the top 2-3%?

Would you feel more comfortable asking the hundreds of competitive players in the dungeon forums about this? Let’s count the guilds that run rangers for competition? DnT? SC? KING?

This conversation is over. You’ve never heard of what I’m talking about in any of the 3 formats.

So let’s say hundreds of people talk in the dungeon forums and there are a hunded thousand rangers playing the game.

What percentage do you calculate that as. Your issues may be real, but making up numbers isn’t going to help your cause.

Substance E.4852:

Vayne.8563:

It’s still one of the most popular classes in the game.

Prove it.

Vayne.8563:

I’d say you’re making up numbers, because you don’t know the top 20% and can’t prove it’s 20%.

And while you’re at it, provide context that details total hours spent on the character as the amount of newbies rolling a ranger vs the amount of people still playing said ranger 300+ hours later are two very different sets of data.

Ah so eager to try to prove me wrong. I’m not the one using numbers, someone else is. I’m not saying I know, I’m saying the person I’m responding to doesn’t.

If someone comes up to me and says 4 out of 5 people like chrewing gum, I’d say they had no way of knowing that, and I’d be right. I’d ask for evidence. If none is forthcoming I’d say that they were making it up.

I don’t need to provide data to refute someone else’s lack of data. I just have to point it out and let reasonable minds decide if what that person is saying is true.

Vayne.8563:

Fluffball.8307:

Vayne.8563:

The top 20% PvE tournaments? lol okay then.

Are you saying that the top 20% of the playerbase appear in those tournaments. Maybe you’re talking about the top 2-3%?

Would you feel more comfortable asking the hundreds of competitive players in the dungeon forums about this? Let’s count the guilds that run rangers for competition? DnT? SC? KING?

This conversation is over. You’ve never heard of what I’m talking about in any of the 3 formats.

So let’s say hundreds of people talk in the dungeon forums and there are a hunded thousand rangers playing the game.

What percentage do you calculate that as. Your issues may be real, but making up numbers isn’t going to help your cause.

And if this a dungeon specific problem, OP should post in the dungeon forums, maybe those dungeon cracks can help OP in finding a viable group composition for rangers.