Another Patch of more PvP nerfs to PvE
It’s not about new players beeing mentally deicient (why that offense?), it’s about making a system much more complex for people who play multiple classes and multiple modes. Alot of people here are just playing one class and only PvE. They don’t see this issue and I just wanted to point it out.
In this case and with this logic, they shouldn’t be doing so many balancing patches all the time, because that would confuse new players. One day this skill does X amount of damage, next day it does Y amount of damage. One day this skill has X amount of CD, next day different. One day, this skill gives you this buff, other day…. You get my point..
Also, you said most players only play PvE and they don’t see this issue. I play only PvE and I see issue. And others see issues as well, that’s pretty much what topic is about. You can clearly see when your skills or build was nerfed and is not acting the same as it was days ago for example. So, you check patch notes and see bunch of stuff was nerfed. Then you ask yourself why? Why would that need a nerf? And then after few seconds of research you come to conclusion it’s because of PvP.
(edited by serialkicker.5274)
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
What would be so hard to grasp about a skill having a higher cooldown or doing less damage in pvp? The game tells you everything you need to know by hovering above the skill.
Of course if this really is a problem, then balance around PvE which the majority plays.
I agree that they should split some of the skills; one set for PvE, the other for WvW and PvP (I don’t think it would be necessary to have a third variant for WvW).
The suggestion that this might confuse players is ridiculous. The game modes are very different and you’d be using different skills and different rotations so you would just adapt. It was never a problem in GW1 and there were way more skills in that game.
So the only real argument against doing this is that it increases the development, test and maintenance effort required.
I wouldn’t mind if the numbers on the skills were tweaked for PvP (Damage, duration, and possibly cooldown), given that the amulet system screws up all the stats and outputs anyway.
But leave WvW and PvE alone.
I have no hope left since fixing a visual glitch is a balance fix?
Ad astra per asperas
Maybe instead of splitting skills, which could be confusing but wasn’t bad to get used to in GW1, they should introduce PVE only skills to balance the classes like G1 had with lightbringer, sunspear, etc.
It may be nice to have a few more options to chose from as well in build diversity.
Maybe a new mastery system will improve your character’s abilities in PVE could also work as a balance.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
It’s not about new players beeing mentally deicient (why that offense?), it’s about making a system much more complex for people who play multiple classes and multiple modes. Alot of people here are just playing one class and only PvE. They don’t see this issue and I just wanted to point it out.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
“Druid is now only dealing 19k dps instead of 20k, letz kick them all from our raid group” is a really childish attitude. I am not sure if Anet should balance something around this attitude…
A difference of 19k instead of 20k is actually huge over a long period of time. At 19k DPS over a an hour that’s 68,400,000 DPS an hour whereas 20k is 72,000,000 damage per hour.
Still, are they even counting pet damage towards the total?
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Every class got big nerfs and big buffs already. Get over it and adjust your build.
The split would just effect cooldown times and damage modifiers. They’re the same skills but made fairer for both modes.
(edited by Agemnon.4608)
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
Thank you. I find this coddling mentality demeaning to all players.
Proud disabled gamer. Not everyone has the capacity to git gud.
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
Thank you. I find this coddling mentality demeaning to all players.
Remember when they released the NPE? The entire excuse anet gave us was that they thought the game was too hard for new players, it was an extremely insulting statement to make but they made it none the less. It is clear that they still think their player base is too stupid to understand simple concepts.
imo to say skills should be identical in pve and pvp is pretty much saying they are the same mode of game play. Encounters are the same, fights are the same ect. Surely Anet doesn’t believe that.
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
Thank you. I find this coddling mentality demeaning to all players.
Remember when they released the NPE? The entire excuse anet gave us was that they thought the game was too hard for new players, it was an extremely insulting statement to make but they made it none the less. It is clear that they still think their player base is too stupid to understand simple concepts.
Ah, yes, the Chinese GW2 client ported over to the Western version, which neutered the marketed freestyle sense of exploration NPE is one of the most insulting experiences I’ve been through in my 17 years of playing MMOs. I’m surprised it didn’t include level unlocks for jumping or using emotes.
Back on topic, would it be so hard to just leave skills and traits alone in PvE whenever eSports demands tribute? They could effectively lock them out of the system and make real changes for that format when necessary. Just add a (PvE) tag on these abilities so “new players” will get the message. I mean, it’s not like there’s any kind of warning you’ll lose food/utility effects for joining a match.
Proud disabled gamer. Not everyone has the capacity to git gud.
This. How about we split balance or do not balance the game around the mode where you can change your whole build, more specifically stats and sigils and runes, without spending any gold or time.
I can make a level 1 toon of another class, enter sPvP and enjoy it the same as my level 80’s with hundreds of gold in gear, so this mode while fair doesn’t feel right having balance adjusted around it. It’s just that if the level 1 toon get hit by nerfs I lose nothing, just make another level 1 from a top tier class and I am fine without any time invested at all.
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
Thank you. I find this coddling mentality demeaning to all players.
You mean the players who don’t know how CC works? Who can’t execute a breakbar against the Shatterer or any of the Wyverns? The overwhelming majority who spam buttons at any open world event? The fair number who do the same in pug fractals and dungeons and raids every single day? You really don’t think Anet has justification for dumbing down the game when people can’t even handle dodging?
The playerbase can blame itself for this as much as a lack of dev resources.
Zelendel
This. How about we split balance or do not balance the game around the mode where you can change your whole build, more specifically stats and sigils and runes, without spending any gold or time.
I can make a level 1 toon of another class, enter sPvP and enjoy it the same as my level 80’s with hundreds of gold in gear, so this mode while fair doesn’t feel right having balance adjusted around it. It’s just that if the level 1 toon get hit by nerfs I lose nothing, just make another level 1 from a top tier class and I am fine without any time invested at all.
And then you may need to spend more gold to retool your build for the new meta. Hmm… dons his tinfoil hat
Proud disabled gamer. Not everyone has the capacity to git gud.
The fact that they have not cared in the least to address the pve/pvp/wvw split in builds and the fact that nothing has been done about preset build loads to accomodate this function says little about the company as a whole. I find it ludicrous that issues such as these have not been implemented for the betterment of the game.
How long do people have to contend with the silence and ignorance that Anet foists upon us in these regards? Are you kidding me that in all this time that nothing has been done about it and that the same old business as usual attitude has prevailed.?
Your business as usual attitude is not what the majority of people want, nor need for that matter. What we need is a company that listens to their clients and discusses matters (on their own flipping website) in a proactive manner which in turn lends itself to furthering and enrichment of the game… as a whole.
It’s about time Anet, for you to get busy with what the players, ie clients, want in the game. It may be your game, your vision, but we should have a kitten say here too in what is needed, because we play the kitten game…
Dan, this attitude makes me ill.
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
Thank you. I find this coddling mentality demeaning to all players.
You mean the players who don’t know how CC works? Who can’t execute a breakbar against the Shatterer or any of the Wyverns? The overwhelming majority who spam buttons at any open world event? The fair number who do the same in pug fractals and dungeons and raids every single day? You really don’t think Anet has justification for dumbing down the game when people can’t even handle dodging?
The playerbase can blame itself for this as much as a lack of dev resources.
These people existed in GW1 and their split worked just fine. Dumb people are no new circumstance in gaming.
That’s the whole point of playing a game; you get better over time. It’s awful that some designers are seeing this as an obstacle rather than a feature and opting for removing any complexity out of a game to turn their cash cow into some Facebook game.
There’s zero reason not to nerf skills in PVP only, they’ve done it MANY times before. What’s the problem?
There’s zero reason not to nerf skills in PVP only, they’ve done it MANY times before. What’s the problem?
They basically said it’s due to a lack of human resources, but because PvE is such a stagnant environment (it’s not like Gorseval or Mai Trin swap out builds or anything), I don’t see why they can’t just lock certain traits and skills into effect.
It’s a slim shot, but hopefully they figure this out before they release more elite specs or it’s just going to get worse.
Proud disabled gamer. Not everyone has the capacity to git gud.
You really don’t think Anet has justification for dumbing down the game when people can’t even handle dodging?
The playerbase can blame itself for this as much as a lack of dev resources.
Dumbing the game down doesn’t solve the problem of an ignorant playerbase, it only re-enforces it. Such was the problem with the NPE, such is the problem with certain balance choices like deciding they cannot invest the manpower in creating a more holistic gameplay experience for all modes.
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
Thank you. I find this coddling mentality demeaning to all players.
You mean the players who don’t know how CC works? Who can’t execute a breakbar against the Shatterer or any of the Wyverns? The overwhelming majority who spam buttons at any open world event? The fair number who do the same in pug fractals and dungeons and raids every single day? You really don’t think Anet has justification for dumbing down the game when people can’t even handle dodging?
The playerbase can blame itself for this as much as a lack of dev resources.
Hello. I’m one of the dumb, mouth-breathing, skill-clicking players you just neatly described and I still am in favor of PvP/PvE skill split.
I absolutely agree the split should MUST happen. While PvP-wise I understand why changes are made, but at the same time it really hurts PvE side of things, quite often in odd places. I understand the concerns, but really, simple numerical split (ensuring all those annoying “-20% damage because ESL” get “PvP ONLY” tag) won’t change the way classes play enough to confuse anyone. After all, PvP and PvE play very differently regardless of balancing quirks.
What really riles my up however is that “balancing” in this game seems only concerned about abilities over-performing in PvP (those get successively nerfed to the ground), while almost anything else can rot for months without getting any attention.
This is becoming really hilarious from revenant perspective – anything considered “too good” in PvP gets the nerfbat in a blink (often deserved, the class is strong), but at the same time bugged abilities stay bugged for months and no one gives a kitten.
Hammer 2 hits 15 instead of 5 people? Fix NOW!
Hammer 2 can’t hit anything when used on a slope? Meh, who cares…
Sword 2 targets stealthed thieves? Fix NOW!
Sword 2 targets boxes and bunnies instead of mobs? Meh, who cares…
Really, at this point this e-sport fixation seems more like an obsession to me.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
It’s not about new players beeing mentally deicient (why that offense?), it’s about making a system much more complex for people who play multiple classes and multiple modes. Alot of people here are just playing one class and only PvE. They don’t see this issue and I just wanted to point it out.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
“Druid is now only dealing 19k dps instead of 20k, letz kick them all from our raid group” is a really childish attitude. I am not sure if Anet should balance something around this attitude…
A difference of 19k instead of 20k is actually huge over a long period of time. At 19k DPS over a an hour that’s 68,400,000 DPS an hour whereas 20k is 72,000,000 damage per hour.
Still, are they even counting pet damage towards the total?
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Every class got big nerfs and big buffs already. Get over it and adjust your build.The split would just effect cooldown times and damage modifiers. They’re the same skills but made fairer for both modes.
I am a player that plays all 3 game types – PvE, PvP and WvW. I understand that each game type functions differently and requires different builds, gear and that your character behaves drastically different based on these factors and others.
New player or not – understanding this is not some hidden secret – it’s common sense.
If you don’t understand that things work differently in different game modes and that you should have different builds each oriented towards that mode you are a bad player.
Anet should not cater to you – they should instead instruct you to understand that you need to have builds and set-ups for each different mode. In other words – they shouldn’t equalize the game so that your bad build is equally bad everywhere. They should make you improve.
Ruining the game for everyone just because some people are bad isn’t the right solution.
The right solution is for the devs to place in-game systems through which people find out they’re bad and that provide incentive for those people to improve.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
Thank you. I find this coddling mentality demeaning to all players.
You mean the players who don’t know how CC works? Who can’t execute a breakbar against the Shatterer or any of the Wyverns? The overwhelming majority who spam buttons at any open world event? The fair number who do the same in pug fractals and dungeons and raids every single day? You really don’t think Anet has justification for dumbing down the game when people can’t even handle dodging?
The playerbase can blame itself for this as much as a lack of dev resources.
These people existed in GW1 and their split worked just fine. Dumb people are no new circumstance in gaming.
That’s the whole point of playing a game; you get better over time. It’s awful that some designers are seeing this as an obstacle rather than a feature and opting for removing any complexity out of a game to turn their cash cow into some Facebook game.
Yes – there is however the issue of GW2 vs GW1.
GW1 was a very complex game – its entry-level requirement for knowledge and understanding meant that most GW1 players weren’t really that dumb.
However the amount of dumb people in GW2 has increased tenfold if not more because GW2 is a much more “pick up and play” game. Also – because of this GW2 has many more players and a much wider market appeal than GW1.
Is this a good thing? Yes and no. Dumber player base means dumbed down content. More players means more money and bigger development team.
So what should be done? The developers need to actively push the baddies out of their comfort zone and force/trick/persuade them to improve.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Making the game worse and ruining balance because “new players” or “people might not be smart enough to understand how skills work in multiple game modes” is a BS cop out excuse.
Games should NOT be made worse just because you feel the need to design around the dumbest person alive. I’m sick of this garbage mentality showing up in every game. Humans should not be coddled and treated like morons, they should be forced to become more intelligent and aware of things, but instead we just coddle them so much that the race as a whole is going to start getting dumber by the year because we need to cater everything to that one guy who is too stupid to understand that the fresh steaming hot coffee they just bought might burn their mouth if they drink it.
Disgusting.
(edited by Shiyo.3578)
Making the game worse and ruining balance because “new players” or “people might not be smart enough to understand how skills work in multiple game modes” is a BS cop out excuse.
Games should NOT be made worse just because you feel the need to design around the dumbest person alive. I’m sick of this garbage mentality showing up in every game. Humans should not be coddled and treated like morons, they should be forced to become more intelligent and aware of things, but instead we just coddle them so much that the race as a whole is going to start getting dumber by the year because we need to cater everything to that one guy who is too stupid to understand that the steaming hot coffee fresh they just bought might burn their mouth if they drink it.
Disgusting.
Don’t worry, the second time you buy that hot coffee fresh, you remember it’s hot when you touch it.
Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.
It’s not about new players beeing mentally deicient (why that offense?), it’s about making a system much more complex for people who play multiple classes and multiple modes. Alot of people here are just playing one class and only PvE. They don’t see this issue and I just wanted to point it out.
Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.
“Druid is now only dealing 19k dps instead of 20k, letz kick them all from our raid group” is a really childish attitude. I am not sure if Anet should balance something around this attitude…
A difference of 19k instead of 20k is actually huge over a long period of time. At 19k DPS over a an hour that’s 68,400,000 DPS an hour whereas 20k is 72,000,000 damage per hour.
Still, are they even counting pet damage towards the total?
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Every class got big nerfs and big buffs already. Get over it and adjust your build.The split would just effect cooldown times and damage modifiers. They’re the same skills but made fairer for both modes.
I am a player that plays all 3 game types – PvE, PvP and WvW. I understand that each game type functions differently and requires different builds, gear and that your character behaves drastically different based on these factors and others.
New player or not – understanding this is not some hidden secret – it’s common sense.
If you don’t understand that things work differently in different game modes and that you should have different builds each oriented towards that mode you are a bad player.Anet should not cater to you – they should instead instruct you to understand that you need to have builds and set-ups for each different mode. In other words – they shouldn’t equalize the game so that your bad build is equally bad everywhere. They should make you improve.
Ruining the game for everyone just because some people are bad isn’t the right solution.
The right solution is for the devs to place in-game systems through which people find out they’re bad and that provide incentive for those people to improve.
I’m for a split, I was just quoting someone who disagreed with it and told them why a split wouldn’t be hard to implement. I think PvE should be balanced around WvW stats but sPvP has its own damage and cooldown modifiers. If a boss or creep seems too stong due to balancing around WvW then the boss or creep should be adjusted accordingly. Players aren’t the HP sponges that elite mobs and up are while mobs also follow a predetermined script so we know PvP and PvE need a split. If you got a dragon whose HP puts an aircraft carrier’s HP to shame and has a couple of one shot AoE’s then he obviously needs a different skillset and stats to deal with compared to fighting other players.
As I recall, the reason given a long time ago was that it was too confusing to the players to have a PvP and a PvE set of skills, or words to that effect.
That may be what they say, but it is funny that no one had a problem with it in GW1 or other multi format MMO’s.
Apparently we have gotten more easily confused since GW1. Old age?
There can’t be build diversity if they keep putting everything together in the same pot.
Skills that are useful in PvP aren’t necessarily useful in PvE, and eventually in WvW either.
They’re different modes, with different goals, that provide different situations and gameplay.
Yet everything is balanced over one situation and goal in particular. It shouldn’t be surprising that it just won’t work.
For example, see the engineer. What’s the point of elixirs in PvE? In a group setting, they’re awful. Gadgets in PvE? Only slick shoes for raids, and even that got neutered. Turrets in PvE? As a turret, never, because they’re just terrible in that regard; at most they were used as some kind of bomb – summon it, do a skill, detonate it yourself. They were designed to defend a control an area, did it in PvP, and were nerfed because they did what they were designed for (and one should wonder why they bothered designing them in that way, then). Then we get the scrapper, and there are gyros. That can’t even keep up with players…because they were likely balanced over the player standing still or moving into a small area. Or that are weaker the more allies there are – bulwark gyro just dies extremely quick if it absorbs damage from multiple players, unlike a banner or, well, anything else.
As far as PvE goes, they should rebalance almost all these skills. Same for a ton of other classes. That’s what happens when you neglect balancing other game modes for years.
They will just continue to ignore the problems.
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Imagine what is written above is completely true, what alternative ANET have to bypass the “PvE / PvP skills split”?
The alternative I see is to change the PvE enemies behaviours at the same time. Something like that :
Elementalist
“Feel the Burn!”: The cooldown of this skill has-been Increased from 20 seconds to 25 seconds.
“Flash-Freeze!”: The cooldown of this skill has-been Increased from 25 seconds to 30 seconds.
All frogs and centaurs take 25% more damage from shout skills
Returning to the model where PvE and PvP were split is the best choice for the survival of this game. Even children can learn that the difference. I have played MMO’s where there was a difference and there were no real issues. Until Anet realized this, Pve will be governed by the whims and tears of the PvP community. I have had to say “goodbye” to several of my favorite classes because of this. Yes, I can still play them, but I try to min/max. That is my choice. But because of Anet’s choice to let PvE be governed by PvP, they are “shelved”. I am not alone in this. This and the kittening of pve content (taking away requirements for metas like AB, for collections like the Luminates Back Plate, etc) is damaging this game for the long term player. Unless you are an achievement seeker or pvp player, it has become disengaging. Just my 2 cents.
I liked the skill splits in Guild Wars 1. Keep the nerfs to the gameplay that needs them, not to all game plays so that PvE skills are ruined by nerfs to a skill used to defend a point against another player. If you’re any good at PvP then you’ll remember the changes anyway. If you’re not good, well that’s the least of your problems in PvP.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I say this every time this topic comes up: skill splits are what caused City of Heroes to fall. The change in how everything worked from PVE to PVP meant that it was a massive learning barrier that most players couldn’t be bothered with. “Why try to learn the entire game all over again just so I could fight some guys”? The answer was they didn’t, so the PVP community perished and the PVE community could barely keep the game afloat.
Seamless transition between modes is a good thing that should be strived for.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Thats why i’ve retired my revenant. Loved Hammer and Staff. Not anymore. All because of WvW and PVP balance. Only thing is, i PVE.
Splitting PvP/PvE skills is always in the games best interest if PvP is any good in the game. CoH is a bad counter example because its PvP was horrid from day one due to the fundamental design issue of having every active power cause you to root to your location. The decision to split them was still the correct one, however, because PvE was great and did not deserve to suffer for the splashing magikarp that was CoX PvP.
CoH was definitely floating when NCsoft shut it down, so the skill split didn’t kill that. It may have for you, as a PvPer, but not for its vast PvE player base. And the split itself didn’t even kill PvP, an unintended consequence did because nerfing skills for PvP ended up overpowering the NPC groups in the PvP zones. Making it un-enjoyable to enter for everyone to suffer through those zones, even if they didn’t end up getting ganked by a stalker. Could the devs have fixed this issue? You bet they could have (they figure out how to do power customization after saying it was impossible), but not fast enough to retain the impatient PvPers so they just threw PvP out the window and focused on PvE.
If anything killed CoH other than NCsoft it would have been the dated graphics and design of the game, but I haven’t known a dying MMO to churn out actual, quality content every three months-think an entire Living World Season (new maps, revamped maps, new side quests, main story plots, costume bits, villain group overhauls, raids, dungeons) every THREE months on top of bug fixes and balancing patches-like CoH was doing up until NCsoft shuttered it unexpectedly (two days before NCsoft said it was over, the Devs had released a game plan for the next 3-6 months with plans beyond a year in the works). Man those Devs really must have loved that game to work so hard if it wasn’t making them money. Usually, when a game is going down hill, it pulls crap like GW2 does. Over inflates its cash shop with things that, in all honesty, should be a part of the game (primarily glider skins come to mind, there should be craftable ones for each armor profession, order ones from the order vendors, profession ones, SOMETHING, to help lessen the blow of HoTs lack of non-gem customization content).
(edited by Kentaine.4692)
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I take it you don’t play Mesmer, right? Persistence of Memory went from a six second reduction in phantasm recharge to three: and that’s under the most optimal settings. I wouldn’t call a 50 percent reduction minor.
It’s not just about this patch, either: it’s about the incremental shaving because of eSports: kind of a frog boiling in water scenario.
Usually, when a game is going down hill, it pulls crap like GW2 does. Over inflates its cash shop with things that, in all honesty, should be a part of the game (primarily glider skins come to mind, there should be craftable ones for each armor profession, order ones from the order vendors, profession ones, SOMETHING, to help lessen the blow of HoTs lack of non-gem customization content).
Celebrate your victory over Sabetha by buying her mini from the gemstore!
Proud disabled gamer. Not everyone has the capacity to git gud.
(edited by Makai.3429)
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I take it you don’t play Mesmer, right? Persistence of Memory went from a six second reduction in phantasm recharge to three: and that’s under the most optimal settings. I wouldn’t call a 50 percent reduction minor.
Usually, when a game is going down hill, it pulls crap like GW2 does. Over inflates its cash shop with things that, in all honesty, should be a part of the game (primarily glider skins come to mind, there should be craftable ones for each armor profession, order ones from the order vendors, profession ones, SOMETHING, to help lessen the blow of HoTs lack of non-gem customization content).
Celebrate your victory over Sabetha by buying her mini from the gemstore!
Oh, I don’t raid but that is a perfect example of what I mean. THAT should have been a drop. Hell there should be Sabetha armor skin drops too, or at the very least weapon drops… or maybe… just maybe… a glider drop?
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I take it you don’t play Mesmer, right? Persistence of Memory went from a six second reduction in phantasm recharge to three: and that’s under the most optimal settings. I wouldn’t call a 50 percent reduction minor.
Usually, when a game is going down hill, it pulls crap like GW2 does. Over inflates its cash shop with things that, in all honesty, should be a part of the game (primarily glider skins come to mind, there should be craftable ones for each armor profession, order ones from the order vendors, profession ones, SOMETHING, to help lessen the blow of HoTs lack of non-gem customization content).
Celebrate your victory over Sabetha by buying her mini from the gemstore!
It doesn’t really matter if Mesmer damage is nerfed anyway because people don’t bring them for damage anyway. They have one of the lowest DPS in a raid but their utility is very overpowered. Hense why the utilities are being adjusted. They were overpowered in PvE and pretty much provide a significant dps boost to raids.
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I take it you don’t play Mesmer, right? Persistence of Memory went from a six second reduction in phantasm recharge to three: and that’s under the most optimal settings. I wouldn’t call a 50 percent reduction minor.
Usually, when a game is going down hill, it pulls crap like GW2 does. Over inflates its cash shop with things that, in all honesty, should be a part of the game (primarily glider skins come to mind, there should be craftable ones for each armor profession, order ones from the order vendors, profession ones, SOMETHING, to help lessen the blow of HoTs lack of non-gem customization content).
Celebrate your victory over Sabetha by buying her mini from the gemstore!
It doesn’t really matter if Mesmer damage is nerfed anyway because people don’t bring them for damage anyway. They have one of the lowest DPS in a raid but their utility is very overpowered. Hense why the utilities are being adjusted. They were overpowered in PvE and pretty much provide a significant dps boost to raids.
Their damage is already on the street, so why not push it into the gutter? Got it.
Proud disabled gamer. Not everyone has the capacity to git gud.
Splitting PvP/PvE skills is always in the games best interest if PvP is any good in the game. CoH is a bad counter example because its PvP was horrid from day one due to the fundamental design issue of having every active power cause you to root to your location. The decision to split them was still the correct one, however, because PvE was great and did not deserve to suffer for the splashing magikarp that was CoX PvP.
That is where we disagree. City of Heroes was designed from the ground up to be a PVE MMO. It was only later that PVP was introduced into the game. The PVP system originally worked just like the PVE system, which was a bit wonky but could be worked around, due to the forgiving potion system that was inspirations. Issue 6 is when the infamous split happened, which is what caused the majority of the PVP community to simply stop PVPing. The reason being that, get this: the PVP was actually fun in the game. Yes, it’s not a twitch based action combat system, but there was still the intensity and uncertainty of combat, as well as a myriad of different enemies and fighting styles you could face.
But the split ruined it in a couple of ways. First was the immersion breaking:, which was more important for the CoX community. Second was the new build requirements. Originally, when you built yourself for PVE you were already well built for PVP. But with everything working differently, you had to come up with a completely new build, along with a new set of enhancements for that build, as well as a new inspiration lineup to deal with the new mechanics. Third was that, to anyone entering into PVP for the first time, there was a massive learning curve that prevented new players from getting into the game. Issue 6 basically destroyed the game people were already having fun playing, and replaced it a new game that was vaguely CoH skinned.
To this day I say that CoX was murdered instead of dying off, but it is easy to see how the lack of PVP contributed to its death. PVP can vastly extend the life of a game because human opponents and strategies are always evolving and always interesting. It is much harder, if nigh impossible, to pin down an exact routine to deal with a human player. But, without a thriving PVP community, the game quickly becomes stale and repetitive.
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I take it you don’t play Mesmer, right? Persistence of Memory went from a six second reduction in phantasm recharge to three: and that’s under the most optimal settings. I wouldn’t call a 50 percent reduction minor.
It’s not just about this patch, either: it’s about the incremental shaving because of eSports: kind of a frog boiling in water scenario.
Oh I play mesmer alright. I take compounding power over persistence of memory, largely because I don’t shatter my phantasms enough to warrant a cooldown reduction. Whether I’m a mantra vanilla mesmer or a chronomancer, I keep my phantasms alive as long as possible. Both to do more long-run damage, and also to buff my teammates with alacrity and break bars with slow. I only shatter my phantasms when I’m going for a full continuum split burst, after which the phantasms are right back up again. But even in emergencies where I have to break a bar or become invulnerable, the timeframe between these moments is long enough that my phantasms have recharged anyway.
Persistence of memory basically means that, in the situation where I have both spawned a lot of phantasms and have chosen to shatter them while the skill is on cooldown, it now takes 3 seconds longer to get them back. Considering I’m never in such a position wherein 3 seconds on phantasm reduction would matter, I would call this change minuscule at best. It alters a trait that I don’t even use.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I take it you don’t play Mesmer, right? Persistence of Memory went from a six second reduction in phantasm recharge to three: and that’s under the most optimal settings. I wouldn’t call a 50 percent reduction minor.
Usually, when a game is going down hill, it pulls crap like GW2 does. Over inflates its cash shop with things that, in all honesty, should be a part of the game (primarily glider skins come to mind, there should be craftable ones for each armor profession, order ones from the order vendors, profession ones, SOMETHING, to help lessen the blow of HoTs lack of non-gem customization content).
Celebrate your victory over Sabetha by buying her mini from the gemstore!
It doesn’t really matter if Mesmer damage is nerfed anyway because people don’t bring them for damage anyway. They have one of the lowest DPS and mediocre boons in a raid but their utility is very overpowered . Hense why the utilities are being adjusted. They were overpowered in PvE and pretty much provide a significant dps boost to raids.
I don’t know… but isn’t that the point? If I were forming a raid and saw a mesmer, but knew they granted amazing boons in exchange for having minimal DPS, I would want them. Nerf the amazing boons, well now they just do minimal DPS so it would probably just be better to get another DPSer instead of a Mesmer since the boons no longer make up for the lack in damage.
Here is the problem with balancing though. I have never seen a game balance well. They always go for the nerf bat and forget when you nerf something, something else needs to be increased. Take the Mesmer for example. Nerf their support abilities, but that better mean they get an increase to their DPS too. Ah, but this is how it works for PvE… GW2 balances around PvP. I’d love it if my Mesmer did more base damage after its support got nerfed, but since that would make them OP in PvP it isn’t going to happen. Hence why a split from PvP and PvE skills should happen.
Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.
It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.
Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.
Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.
Every class got big nerfs and big buffs already. Get over it and adjust your build.
Do you think whole playerbase consist of illiteral idiots?
You would be surprised…
NSPride <3
Here is the problem with balancing though. I have never seen a game balance well. They always go for the nerf bat and forget when you nerf something, something else needs to be increased. Take the Mesmer for example. Nerf their support abilities, but that better mean they get an increase to their DPS too. Ah, but this is how it works for PvE… GW2 balances around PvP. I’d love it if my Mesmer did more base damage after its support got nerfed, but since that would make them OP in PvP it isn’t going to happen. Hence why a split from PvP and PvE skills should happen.
Your perspective is confusing here. The whole point of nerfing something is that it is performing better than the other classes, and so it needs a reduction overall. If you nerf one thing, but then boost another to compensate, then you’re still stuck with the same class being overpowered.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Here is the problem with balancing though. I have never seen a game balance well. They always go for the nerf bat and forget when you nerf something, something else needs to be increased. Take the Mesmer for example. Nerf their support abilities, but that better mean they get an increase to their DPS too. Ah, but this is how it works for PvE… GW2 balances around PvP. I’d love it if my Mesmer did more base damage after its support got nerfed, but since that would make them OP in PvP it isn’t going to happen. Hence why a split from PvP and PvE skills should happen.
Your perspective is confusing here. The whole point of nerfing something is that it is performing better than the other classes, and so it needs a reduction overall. If you nerf one thing, but then boost another to compensate, then you’re still stuck with the same class being overpowered.
Not really. Look at Druid for a prime example.
Were druids overpowered in raids? Not remotely, they can still be replaced by a Tempest if you desire.
Were smokescales really the breaking factor of what made a druid strong in raids? Not remotely.
If anything, pets SUCK in PvE. Ranger pets don’t benefit from food/pots or sigil/rune bonuses, they don’t scale their crit damage or condition damage/duration rating to the same high levels of the ranger, and most of those pets can’t even hit moving targets.
It’s part of the reason why power ranger DPS has been completely unviable, because a % of the damage they’re designed around doesn’t scale with the 5% stat difference of ascended, it does not share boons with the ranger without a trait, it does not benefit from consumables or equipment bonuses, and most of those pets do terrible DPS.
The best pets, the smokescale/cats, are the least garbage of the bunch and they STILL don’t place power ranger within the DPS range of the other classes. Let’s not even talk moas or bears, whose autoattacks hit for less than a burning tick from a power elementalist.
So why have ranger pets kept being nerfed constantly? PvP.
They actually had to give Druids Grace of the Land so groups would bother taking them instead of adding another Tempest.
In that way, CORE mesmer and CORE mesmer traits don’t need nerfing. Alacrity just needs to be shaved, and mesmer DPS needs to be brought UP.
But mesmer DPS will never be buffed because they refuse to split PvE/PvP.
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I say this every time this topic comes up: skill splits are what caused City of Heroes to fall. The change in how everything worked from PVE to PVP meant that it was a massive learning barrier that most players couldn’t be bothered with. “Why try to learn the entire game all over again just so I could fight some guys”? The answer was they didn’t, so the PVP community perished and the PVE community could barely keep the game afloat.
Seamless transition between modes is a good thing that should be strived for.
It’s not about this patch in particular – at least not for me.
It’s about the general way things are done in this game.
Look at the stability change that happened a while ago where stability was changed from a duration boon to a boon that has stacks. That change impacted WvW in a major way and ruined the fun of fights in WvW for months to come. Only recently did Anet do something to address it – further underlining that yes there was a problem that their own balance created.
And why was stability changed? Because of PvP -a completely different game type than WvW.
This sort of thing should not happen in the future!
Also – do you honestly believe GW2’s PvP population is what is keeping this game afloat?
Do you honestly believe GW2 has native PvP players? Not just players that do seasons for the backpiece – but players that actually PvP regularly and enjoy it. I honestly don’t know the percentages but I would hardly say there are many of them – in any case they’re not the ones keeping the game afloat.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I take it you don’t play Mesmer, right? Persistence of Memory went from a six second reduction in phantasm recharge to three: and that’s under the most optimal settings. I wouldn’t call a 50 percent reduction minor.
Usually, when a game is going down hill, it pulls crap like GW2 does. Over inflates its cash shop with things that, in all honesty, should be a part of the game (primarily glider skins come to mind, there should be craftable ones for each armor profession, order ones from the order vendors, profession ones, SOMETHING, to help lessen the blow of HoTs lack of non-gem customization content).
Celebrate your victory over Sabetha by buying her mini from the gemstore!
Oh, I don’t raid but that is a perfect example of what I mean. THAT should have been a drop. Hell there should be Sabetha armor skin drops too, or at the very least weapon drops… or maybe… just maybe… a glider drop?
Don’t forget the Exalted Glider in the gem store – you know – the one that could have been an awesome way to reward players for reaching max mastery with the Exalted.
Instead you can buy it for yourself off the gem store to prove what a good and diligent player you’ve been.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I take it you don’t play Mesmer, right? Persistence of Memory went from a six second reduction in phantasm recharge to three: and that’s under the most optimal settings. I wouldn’t call a 50 percent reduction minor.
Usually, when a game is going down hill, it pulls crap like GW2 does. Over inflates its cash shop with things that, in all honesty, should be a part of the game (primarily glider skins come to mind, there should be craftable ones for each armor profession, order ones from the order vendors, profession ones, SOMETHING, to help lessen the blow of HoTs lack of non-gem customization content).
Celebrate your victory over Sabetha by buying her mini from the gemstore!
It doesn’t really matter if Mesmer damage is nerfed anyway because people don’t bring them for damage anyway. They have one of the lowest DPS in a raid but their utility is very overpowered. Hense why the utilities are being adjusted. They were overpowered in PvE and pretty much provide a significant dps boost to raids.
Just because high-end PvE doesn’t use them as damage dealers doesn’t mean you should nerf their dps like it’s nothing.
I get that Raid mesmers are utlity focused – I raid a lot and know this – but why punish all those that want to play mesmer in the open world or other non-hardcore areas of the game?
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.
I say this every time this topic comes up: skill splits are what caused City of Heroes to fall. The change in how everything worked from PVE to PVP meant that it was a massive learning barrier that most players couldn’t be bothered with. “Why try to learn the entire game all over again just so I could fight some guys”? The answer was they didn’t, so the PVP community perished and the PVE community could barely keep the game afloat.
Seamless transition between modes is a good thing that should be strived for.
It’s not about this patch in particular – at least not for me.
It’s about the general way things are done in this game.
Look at the stability change that happened a while ago where stability was changed from a duration boon to a boon that has stacks. That change impacted WvW in a major way and ruined the fun of fights in WvW for months to come. Only recently did Anet do something to address it – further underlining that yes there was a problem that their own balance created.And why was stability changed? Because of PvP -a completely different game type than WvW.
This sort of thing should not happen in the future!
PVP and WvW aren’t completely different game types. But regardless, splitting skills wouldn’t suddenly solve a competency issue Anet has. It just provides another outlet where things can go wrong.
Here is the problem with balancing though. I have never seen a game balance well. They always go for the nerf bat and forget when you nerf something, something else needs to be increased. Take the Mesmer for example. Nerf their support abilities, but that better mean they get an increase to their DPS too. Ah, but this is how it works for PvE… GW2 balances around PvP. I’d love it if my Mesmer did more base damage after its support got nerfed, but since that would make them OP in PvP it isn’t going to happen. Hence why a split from PvP and PvE skills should happen.
Your perspective is confusing here. The whole point of nerfing something is that it is performing better than the other classes, and so it needs a reduction overall. If you nerf one thing, but then boost another to compensate, then you’re still stuck with the same class being overpowered.
Not really. Look at Druid for a prime example.
Were druids overpowered in raids? Not remotely, they can still be replaced by a Tempest if you desire.
Were smokescales really the breaking factor of what made a druid strong in raids? Not remotely.
If anything, pets SUCK in PvE. Ranger pets don’t benefit from food/pots or sigil/rune bonuses, they don’t scale their crit damage or condition damage/duration rating to the same high levels of the ranger, and most of those pets can’t even hit moving targets.
It’s part of the reason why power ranger DPS has been completely unviable, because a % of the damage they’re designed around doesn’t scale with the 5% stat difference of ascended, it does not share boons with the ranger without a trait, it does not benefit from consumables or equipment bonuses, and most of those pets do terrible DPS.
The best pets, the smokescale/cats, are the least garbage of the bunch and they STILL don’t place power ranger within the DPS range of the other classes. Let’s not even talk moas or bears, whose autoattacks hit for less than a burning tick from a power elementalist.
So why have ranger pets kept being nerfed constantly? PvP.
They actually had to give Druids Grace of the Land so groups would bother taking them instead of adding another Tempest.
In that way, CORE mesmer and CORE mesmer traits don’t need nerfing. Alacrity just needs to be shaved, and mesmer DPS needs to be brought UP.
But mesmer DPS will never be buffed because they refuse to split PvE/PvP.
In all of that, you haven’t explained why it is that the concept of “nerfs are for things that are OP and aren’t meant to be compensated for” is wrong somehow. Besides, I’ve seen mesmer DPS get buffed several times in the past.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
PvP and WvW aren’t completely different game types? Really?
One is a 5 v 5 STRUCTURED environment where all stats are equalized and players play for dominance over 3 standard objectives that are located in a small map for about 15 minutes.
The other is an X v X server-wide fight that has no stat equality – where each server can field any number of people at any time one one of the 4 maps available. The servers fight over numerous objectives over the course of a week.
They couldn’t be any more different. The only similarity is that you use the same characters are PvP and that you fight other human opponents.
Tactics, timings, strategies are completely different.
That aside – I fail to understand how you missed my point. If WvW balance was separate from PvP the whole “pirate ship” stale meta wouldn’t have been a thing because the stability change would have been exclusive to PvP.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”