Anyone dislike long fights?
Yup. This is the main reason why I don’t do dungeons.
zzz
Yeah, I get bored fighting a lot of Champion monsters with the large health pools. Go through my full rotation 1500 times before the fight ends, it’s insane. I like the game and the combat but just wish I had more variety in my skills rather than a set 5 for whatever weapons you have equipped.
I’ve never ran so many circles in my life… boss fights should be skill-based, not how long can you run in a circle before throwing up.
I like fighting bosses/harder/elite enemies with just a handful of people because it takes a lot more skill and you don’t fall asleep fighting. If you have 30 people on one boss you can literally pretty much just stand there and auto-attack.
I liked when boss HP was balanced and their difficulty came from their player-available skill set that players had to strategize against and build teams against. You know, like in GW1? The arbitrary number difficulty is lazy design and just a result of them taking out the trinity and therefore having to design encounters fundamentally different. I don’t blame the removal of the trinity, but i definitely think they failed at designing an engaging combat / encounter system that is consistent with their other innovations.
[Opinion]
Long fights are OK when done right. GW2, does not do them “right”.
Long fights should be won via attrition and tactics, planning and out thinking the AI (via clever use of player abilities and terrain).
GW2’s long fights = mobs with a lot of health and hit too hard. So that equates to running in circles constantly while avoiding red circles of doom.
Simply reducing the mobs dmg output and creating stages of varied changes* it would go a long way in making bosses in GW2 interesting and add “real” challenge.
*For example: Say Balthazar @ 75% health suddenly could no longer be hurt by players outside a certain range; and all players in range began to burn or bleed. At 50% this changes again. Maybe Balthazar takes half dmg from physical attacks but double from conditions (or the like). Then final stage, the adds in the area drop items that are required to be thrown that do dmg.
And of course, adding a randomized rotation to such an encounter would make it less trivial each spawn.
That’s a rough idea of course; but this would make a “long fight” interesting and not just a long drawn out fight of running in circles humming the Benny Hill chase theme.
PS. To be fair, The Lyssa encounter is a pretty good one. But outside that one, none stick out to be a “good long battle”.
I think an interesting idea (to expand upon Lyssa) is having one person who needs to DPS down some ‘special’ mob, or orb, (or statue) that directly coorelates to the bosses strengths.
At 100% the mob has regen, protection, fury, might…yadda yadda, and the group needs to keep the boss engaged while one person wails on the orb/statue/mob. With other adds and addendum, you couldn’t just leave 1 person to ‘kite’ the boss while the rest of teh group soloed the statue in order to down it faster and debuff the boss.
Or, even better, you could have it randomly teleport one person to the statue, and every 10% or so( maybe 25%) it poofs the person DPS’ing the statue back into the arena with the boss and sends another person up there.
Just..thinking.
I do, more health does not equal more difficulty. I wouldnt mind otherwise but some of them have SOOOO much health it makes no sense for a fight to last more than 3 minutes.
I think to solve all these problems mentioned above. A new dungeon design team should be hired. I do not see much in the terms of unique mechanics in the dungeons we currently have to run at the moment. I also have seen that as you progress through the dungeons from AC to Arah the story starts to get more and more BLAH. I remembered when I first ran AC, the cut scene was awesome, and the story behind what we all were doing here made good sense and was interesting, but as I progressed onward through CM, SE, TA, ect, ect. It really started to become less and less cut scenes, and more of 2 individuals standing in a blank background just chatting with each other, nothing to entice the eyeballs at all. I personally don’t care about how long it takes to kill a boss, but yes having tons of hp without any real challenge other than knowing when to dodge is a bit o’ stale game play. Having more hp does not make it more challenging, it only makes it more boring! Id rather have less hp and more kitten to worry about with the boss fight than tons of hp and just having to dodge, smack smack smack, dodge..
I swung a sword, I swung a sword again, HEY I swung it again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhu831Sy1Ss
Many dungeon bosses suffer from this problem, even the minibosses that do not give chests or anything worthwhile. Random inquest guy who applies debuffs every now and then takes 5 minutes of beating on him to go down, without anybody in my team ever being in any form of real danger.
That’s not really a challenge, that’s just tedious.
The fact that there is so much of this along with the game not having any sort of interesting rotation or much variety in attacks makes it get really tedious after a while.
Was just doing an event where u have to kill 3 champ mobs that have a massive amount of health and absolutely no mechanics, literally people just run around in a circle and kite them.
Takes like 15 minutes of just auto attacking and the occasional strong cooldown attack. Christ it’s boring. Not really sure what they were thinking when they made these.
It’s like champ/vet hp scaling is overtuned while hp scaling of regular mobs is completely non-existant, on top of this horrible tagging system. It’s just a mess.
@Knote:
This is what GW2 considers fun.
As for me, this just sums everything that is wrong with SoD, CS and ML, which many consider to be ‘end game’.
Well they need a time sink for other players to reach the boss before he gets killed.
Otherwise, when you see an event boss on your map, you run there with top speed, and it may end before you reach him. This needs not to be in dungeon though, if there are no specific boss mechanics related with boss health.
I don’t, but do realize they are a necessary evil. Glass cannons shouldn’t be viable for everything due to balancing. This, coming from a thief.
I think a big difference between open-world zergable targets and instanced encounters which can be tuned to 5-member groups.
The open-world bosses tend to be especially simplistic, and I can give ANet a pass on that, because if they required skill, timing, or strategy, the player base would complain.
I think a big difference between open-world zergable targets and instanced encounters which can be tuned to 5-member groups.
The open-world bosses tend to be especially simplistic, and I can give ANet a pass on that, because if they required skill, timing, or strategy, the player base would complain.
And yet the player base IS complaining, because they are too easy, have too many Hps and are woefully boring.
It didn’t take long for people to figure the mechanics of the dragon fights, or for fighting any ‘certain’ type of challenging encounter out there. People will figure it out, EN MASSE and once figured out, at least it would be interesting, instead of a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 6, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 fight.
I can think of teh champion risen abomination as a prime example, of where one person in a sea of dozens gets aggro and spends the next 15 minutes uselessly kiting in a circle, hopefully skillfully enough NOT to reset the mob while the other dozen or so wail on it for 15 minutes. No skill, no need to move, I don’t worry if someone else has aggro, BECAUSE HE GETS IT FOR THE WHILE FIGHT!!!!!!! I just stand there and hit it with 1 until its HPs finally swindle away and I claim my (oh goodie) gold medal and 2s15c reward. The excitement just sizzles through my body.
And were supposed to swallow this as ‘fun’???
I think a big difference between open-world zergable targets and instanced encounters which can be tuned to 5-member groups.
The open-world bosses tend to be especially simplistic, and I can give ANet a pass on that, because if they required skill, timing, or strategy, the player base would complain.
And yet the player base IS complaining, because they are too easy, have too many Hps and are woefully boring.
It didn’t take long for people to figure the mechanics of the dragon fights, or for fighting any ‘certain’ type of challenging encounter out there. People will figure it out, EN MASSE and once figured out, at least it would be interesting, instead of a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 6, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 fight.
I can think of teh champion risen abomination as a prime example, of where one person in a sea of dozens gets aggro and spends the next 15 minutes uselessly kiting in a circle, hopefully skillfully enough NOT to reset the mob while the other dozen or so wail on it for 15 minutes. No skill, no need to move, I don’t worry if someone else has aggro, BECAUSE HE GETS IT FOR THE WHILE FIGHT!!!!!!! I just stand there and hit it with 1 until its HPs finally swindle away and I claim my (oh goodie) gold medal and 2s15c reward. The excitement just sizzles through my body.
And were supposed to swallow this as ‘fun’???
I kind of enjoy risen abomination on my thief, especially with aggro. Shortbow 5, lay down smokescreen for blind, and use basilisk venom when it starts throwing its tantrum, and switching to daggers for added DPS (unless I still have aggro). Shadow refuge downed players, and repeat. Like I say elsewhere people enjoy different things. I don’t like the knockdown timer since you’re ensured to go down, giving him free hits, and at least drakes do their icebreath right at the end of your downed time if you’re knocked down (provoking their spin knockdown, dodging, and getting behind them to unload damage while they commit themselves is great vs. these mobs, if drakes stand still, be careful, it’s preparing something).
It’s still nevertheless an entertaining encounter watching something so enormous and clumsy looking move with such speed.
I think a big difference between open-world zergable targets and instanced encounters which can be tuned to 5-member groups.
The open-world bosses tend to be especially simplistic, and I can give ANet a pass on that, because if they required skill, timing, or strategy, the player base would complain.
And yet the player base IS complaining, because they are too easy, have too many Hps and are woefully boring.
It didn’t take long for people to figure the mechanics of the dragon fights, or for fighting any ‘certain’ type of challenging encounter out there. People will figure it out, EN MASSE and once figured out, at least it would be interesting, instead of a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 6, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 fight.
I can think of teh champion risen abomination as a prime example, of where one person in a sea of dozens gets aggro and spends the next 15 minutes uselessly kiting in a circle, hopefully skillfully enough NOT to reset the mob while the other dozen or so wail on it for 15 minutes. No skill, no need to move, I don’t worry if someone else has aggro, BECAUSE HE GETS IT FOR THE WHILE FIGHT!!!!!!! I just stand there and hit it with 1 until its HPs finally swindle away and I claim my (oh goodie) gold medal and 2s15c reward. The excitement just sizzles through my body.
And were supposed to swallow this as ‘fun’???
I dunno what you consider fun.
I was just saying that the outside mobs are zergable, so if you gave them fewer hp and tried to make something of it, you may end up with a disappointing result, regardless.
I get the feeling ANet is still figuring out what it can and can’t do with encounters to make them hopefully fun, and robust enough that they don’t bug out, aren’t exploitable, etc.
There is some variety in dungeon boss-event-fights. Consider just AC, the starter dungeon — you have king-of-the-mountain, use-traps, telegraphed 1-shot moves, bosses with challenging adds, protect the flunky — a bunch of different types of fights, not nearly as tank-n-spank as you get in other mmos starter dungeons.
But by the same token, they’re still struggling to get what they have to work right. In the last couple weeks I’ve had 2 runs completely wasted by getting to the end with no payoff because of some bug. Not to mention that I can be standing on a graveling mound and still unable to hit it with a hammer.
You’ll definitely find more creativity in environment and fight scripts in the instanced parts of the game. I imagine that it’ll be better in years to come, once they get their tools working.
I think to solve all these problems mentioned above. A new dungeon design team should be hired. I do not see much in the terms of unique mechanics in the dungeons we currently have to run at the moment. I also have seen that as you progress through the dungeons from AC to Arah the story starts to get more and more BLAH. I remembered when I first ran AC, the cut scene was awesome, and the story behind what we all were doing here made good sense and was interesting, but as I progressed onward through CM, SE, TA, ect, ect. It really started to become less and less cut scenes, and more of 2 individuals standing in a blank background just chatting with each other, nothing to entice the eyeballs at all. I personally don’t care about how long it takes to kill a boss, but yes having tons of hp without any real challenge other than knowing when to dodge is a bit o’ stale game play. Having more hp does not make it more challenging, it only makes it more boring! Id rather have less hp and more kitten to worry about with the boss fight than tons of hp and just having to dodge, smack smack smack, dodge..
Not to dismiss your opinion, as I haven’t done any dungeons besides AC and Arah, but AC’s story was incredibly stupid as well.
Eir Stagalkan... was a god kitten idiot, and it showed. "I'm going to solve the enmity and years-long bickering between two ex-friends by getting them matching swords! Yay!!" Then she's surprised when it doesn't give Logan and Rytlocke the feelgoods, instantly re-cementing their friendship.
Complete dumbkitten.
I think a big difference between open-world zergable targets and instanced encounters which can be tuned to 5-member groups.
The open-world bosses tend to be especially simplistic, and I can give ANet a pass on that, because if they required skill, timing, or strategy, the player base would complain.
And yet the player base IS complaining, because they are too easy, have too many Hps and are woefully boring.
It didn’t take long for people to figure the mechanics of the dragon fights, or for fighting any ‘certain’ type of challenging encounter out there. People will figure it out, EN MASSE and once figured out, at least it would be interesting, instead of a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 6, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 fight.
I can think of teh champion risen abomination as a prime example, of where one person in a sea of dozens gets aggro and spends the next 15 minutes uselessly kiting in a circle, hopefully skillfully enough NOT to reset the mob while the other dozen or so wail on it for 15 minutes. No skill, no need to move, I don’t worry if someone else has aggro, BECAUSE HE GETS IT FOR THE WHILE FIGHT!!!!!!! I just stand there and hit it with 1 until its HPs finally swindle away and I claim my (oh goodie) gold medal and 2s15c reward. The excitement just sizzles through my body.
And were supposed to swallow this as ‘fun’???
lol I have my 1 set to auto-attack. One time, during that fight, I set my auto-attack, went to take a piss, got a sandwich, and came back when the mob had about 25% health left xD
I think a big difference between open-world zergable targets and instanced encounters which can be tuned to 5-member groups.
The open-world bosses tend to be especially simplistic, and I can give ANet a pass on that, because if they required skill, timing, or strategy, the player base would complain.
And yet the player base IS complaining, because they are too easy, have too many Hps and are woefully boring.
It didn’t take long for people to figure the mechanics of the dragon fights, or for fighting any ‘certain’ type of challenging encounter out there. People will figure it out, EN MASSE and once figured out, at least it would be interesting, instead of a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 6, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 fight.
I can think of teh champion risen abomination as a prime example, of where one person in a sea of dozens gets aggro and spends the next 15 minutes uselessly kiting in a circle, hopefully skillfully enough NOT to reset the mob while the other dozen or so wail on it for 15 minutes. No skill, no need to move, I don’t worry if someone else has aggro, BECAUSE HE GETS IT FOR THE WHILE FIGHT!!!!!!! I just stand there and hit it with 1 until its HPs finally swindle away and I claim my (oh goodie) gold medal and 2s15c reward. The excitement just sizzles through my body.
And were supposed to swallow this as ‘fun’???
lol I have my 1 set to auto-attack. One time, during that fight, I set my auto-attack, went to take a piss, got a sandwich, and came back when the mob had about 25% health left xD
laughs
yup, sounds about right.
As for AC, after the ‘initial’ shock of the dungeon wore off, and the seething rage of kitten fury I had during Khol…the dungeon was wholly uninspiring. I thought the trap fight was…interesting, but after a few attempted tries, it was far easier to go down there and AE nuke the swarm ourselves.
The cannon fight,. would have been difficult, except that we alreay know the heirarchy of which mobs to kill, and it was just a matter of FF and taking tehm out.
What bothered me is that dungeons were supposed to be FUN to explore. There is no exploration, there is a set path that you follow because some NPC says so.
Not the sort of exploration that I was looking forward to.
Long boss fights…I’ve had enough Imperial Devastator War Golem, thank you very much….
There wouldn’t be anything wrong with boss fights taking 5-10 minutes if they had some unique mechanics that changed a few times throughout the fight to keep it interesting. As it is, just multiplying the health pool by 1000 and giving them a one-shot attack that needs to be evaded every 30 seconds doesn’t make for a very compelling fight. They can improve the rewards over and over, and I still wouldn’t run them if they aren’t any fun.
The combat was really hyped up for the game, but take away the running around in circles and dodging and you’re left with deeply unsatisfying combat. I feel the running and dodging is an excellent element, but it still masks the underlying issue.
@teviko (cuz ANet can’t even make forum software that doesn’t bug out if you try to quote)
Definitely story-mode and explorable-mode is a misnamed distinction. It should be “quest-reward instead of loot” and “dungeon tokens instead of loot.”
Whether you like the GW2 fighting style or not, if you compare to first dungeons in WoW or Rift, there’s a lot more going on in AC than there is in Realm of the Fae or Deadmines. And GW2 isn’t a dungeon-oriented game. So I give them credit for trying. Again, I think they have to get the basics working before they get too fancy. I hope they do.
Yah. In the dungeon there’s there’s always a tough part in a fight (like first when its 5 players vs 6 mobs plus the boss)… but after you kill off the little minions it’s straight up easy spam for 3-4 mins to kill the boss. I think the fact that players can spam a sequence of skill is not really a bad thing… it’s just that a mob will let players take hits for 3-4 mins and it’s very boring.
I think bosses need to have better time divisions between their previous attacks and their next attacks. As well, they could really build on “combos” in the game…. yah, if anyone still remember ^; GW2 have combo fields and combo finishers. They really did not made them useful though…. so most people don’t really care about that combo chart.
I agree that Health pools in this game are out of whack in many cases with a lot of bosses having way too many HP.
However I’ll add that large health pools can sometimes be part of the difficulty.
Lupius for example, while being somewhat lengthy….does draw a portion of its difficulty from the fact that you have to uphold the Phase 2 shenanigans for quite some time.
But for every Lupius there are dozens of other bosses where I can watch TV while dodging the odd red circle every 10 seconds or so. That’s not cool.
I have to say, World of Warcraft has really distilled the essence of good encounter design. Just look at that game, how the fights are designed, the mechanics, the build-up, the emotes etc. ANet can learn a lot from that.