Guild Wars 2

The difference between MF gear and sub-optimal non-zerker gear is intent:

A person wearing MF intends to screw over the party so that they can gain gold.

A person wearing sub-optimal gear is just trying to have fun playing their build, or maybe just haven’t gotten the gear yet.

The first is intolerable. The second I can deal with.

Star Ace.5207:

Xenon.4537:

Lokki.1092:

Seras.5702:

That’s a fair point and a good analogy. Unfortunately, the only way to solve this is for a LFG system to have an option box for:
- speed runs (know the fights & shortcuts, zerker only, w-w-w-w-m)
- non-speed runs (don’t be an idiot, that is all)

I agree completely, and as a person who has never not once requested all DPS teams the fact is that participating in optimized DPS teams doing any PvE content is a vastly superior experience in speed and efficiency. I never do or will make a team only for DPS but you bet your kitten when I get into one I am happy.

By the way, I feel like 30-50% of the reason a full DPS group is more effective is because of the attitude those players bring to the dungeon, not just the damage. They are in it to win it. They are focused, and determined. They know how to clear content efficiently, because if they don’t, they die. Boxers and martial artists often say that half the fight is mental. A strong, focused attitude is better for getting things done. I find people who run tanky/supporty/balanced builds, who don’t care about speed clearing, tend to be less skillful players. They aren’t as focused or “amped up.” They are just kind of… there. There are only so many hours in the day. I can’t live my life on other people’s terms. I prefer to get things done fast and efficiently. If you slow my dungeon run down, I’ll either kick you or find myself a new group.

That’s your opinion, not fact, though. Gear has nothing to do with player’s attitude. A player may very well have a Warrior with Berserker’s, but be using another non-Warrior with an alternate gear for a Dungeon, and may be as skilled as your elitist friends.

Gear choice does have something to do with a player’s attitude. In life, our attitudes generally affect our decision making. Your attitude towards berserker players drove you to make this thread, for example. My attitude towards achieving goals in-game drives me to wear berserker gear. It’s just faster and more effective for me.

In other words, you think Berserker’s are de facto “leet” who take the game “more seriously”, as you do, but IME, I personally know players who are rather inexperienced and not that great who only use the gear you want to get a slot in “zerk” groups-not because they are “great”, “serious”, “committed to the goal at hand”, etc. The meta you force on them makes them use the gear you want them to use-they don’t necessarily go for the gear because they are “great gw2 players” and “non-lazy.”

No, I don’t think berserkers are the de facto leet. Please don’t put words in my mouth. All I’m saying is that mathematically, zerkers clear content faster, assuming they don’t wipe. And skilled players are able to not wipe, hence zerk groups tend to be more skillfull, and more focused out of necessity.

And BTW, I don’t know if you studied personality types, but it’s perfectly fine for people NOT to be like you, and you don’t have to criticize them as “lazy” or “just there” because they don’t want to do things your fast, efficient way. They shouldn’t criticize you either, as you are you, but being you doesn’t mean that you are “better” than them.

When did I say I was better than them? When did I say It’s not okay for people to be different? I was talking about attitudes. The mental energy people bring to the group is very important. It’s called morale. And by the way, critique is important. Flaws must be identified to be corrected. People are free to be different, but by definition when two things are different, they are not equal, and when they are not equal, one of them is better than the other in a particular situation. Zerk is better at killing things quickly. People use it because they don’t have all day to poke around.

If people want to run full zerk, that’s their choice. Just like it’s your choice to run MF, knights, or whatever. Like I said earlier, you are entitled to wear whatever gear you want, but you aren’t entitled to a spot in someones group.

“I can’t live my life on other’s terms” that’s your preference, but sometimes we have to, and not everybody is geared up that way either-and that’s OK.

I’m not sure what you are implying here. I can’t let other people waste my time by being slow in a dungeon. If they want to be slow, they can do it on their own time, I’ll find players who don’t waste time. People can gear up however they want, it’s not hard to get gear in this game.

I’m pretty sure a zerker in downed state still does twice the damage a PVT person does, so whether or not that is a good argument is questionable.

Besides, a zerker who gets downed occasionally > a PVT person draining time throughout the whole dungeon :/

Don’t even claim all advocates of zerker armor are mean. Making generalizations like that is a very mean thing to do. The reason people don’t want PVT people in their groups is because they fail to contribute to the group, that is a fact.

If someone out there thinks PVT is soooo great and they are being descrimminated against by 1337 zerker jerks, then please feel free to make a gw2lfg post and make PVT a requirement. I would love to see that, besides I definately don’t want you in my group and obviously you dont want me in your group either.

Yaki.9563:

The difference between MF gear and sub-optimal non-zerker gear is intent:

A person wearing MF intends to screw over the party so that they can gain gold.

A person wearing sub-optimal gear is just trying to have fun playing their build, or maybe just haven’t gotten the gear yet.

The first is intolerable. The second I can deal with.

This is an RPG game. It’s perfectly fine to make a treasure hunter character.

You telling other people what is fine and what isn’t, on the other hand…

Jemmi.6058:

You can enter a dungeon group that did not require a cookie cutter build, but still provide less for your party than you otherwise could, because your concerns are primarily on yourself.
-snip-

See, this is where you go wrong.

You assume that because I am not optimized I am not ‘pulling my weight’ in my dungeon group. The only time most people give a rats kitten about what you are wearing or not wearing is if you are speed clearing. At which point, they want something specific. I don’t go with those groups. I don’t fit their style, they don’t fit mine. You could argue that I am being selfish for opting not to play with them; for choosing not to spec for that availability in my play.

I do play with other people like myself, who simply don’t care about what you are wearing, only about the enjoyment of the game and possibly getting through. While its true I am rarely in a group that fails, even then its not ‘point the finger and blame x because OMG he’s wearing MF gear!’ its more ‘rofl, wtf was that, lets do it again! maybe we shoudl stop and look before we rush ahead though.’

They are different mentalities completely.

You see in some situations my ability to keep my teams’ sorry kittens alive at the boss with my support heals kills my DPS, yet allows us to finish the idiot off without wiping. Means no waypointing out, running back and starting all over. Yet, as per so many prior posts, using armor with a healing stat boost is useless/selfish/a waste. Not in this situation its not, and yet…I am selfish for assisting my team in such a fashion.

On the other hand, you could potentially argue that if I had more punch, the boss would have died faster and my team may not have needed the heals to stay up. Or you could argue ‘they are just bad’ or that I am ‘just bad’ which is completely unfounded since you dont know them or even me. If I stand there and fight, trying to keep us from wiping, I’m selfish. If I wipe and make us run back and start over, I am selfish.

There is no win here…. everything one does is selfish by the opinions of others.

However, I would say that I am not. I play my way in such a fashion that it does not impact anyone that it would bother, which is a key point to selfishness. I don’t ‘lack concern for others.’ However, I’m not going to let their opinions dictate how I play either.

Wyre.7458:

I’m pretty sure a zerker in downed state still does twice the damage a PVT person does, so whether or not that is a good argument is questionable.

Besides, a zerker who gets downed occasionally > a PVT person draining time throughout the whole dungeon :/

Don’t even claim all advocates of zerker armor are mean. Making generalizations like that is a very mean thing to do. The reason people don’t want PVT people in their groups is because they fail to contribute to the group, that is a fact.

If someone out there thinks PVT is soooo great and they are being descrimminated against by 1337 zerker jerks, then please feel free to make a gw2lfg post and make PVT a requirement. I would love to see that, besides I definately don’t want you in my group and obviously you dont want me in your group either.

The problem is that a lot of the arm wavers in this this thread apparently don’t understand the concept of “mixed builds.”

What if I wanna run PVT gear with damage-based runes, and zerker trinkets/weapons(with damage sigils)? I will still do gobs of damage (you get about 50% of your stats from trinkets, plus even more from the runes and weapons), and be able to take far more damage.

Also: Most high level fractal groups will have NOTHING to do with zerker builds. It takes about 2-3 hits from the (dozens of) grubs on the shaman fractal to down a zerk in the 40+ range.

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Or, you can change that PVT to zerker and do even MORE damage, and since you will have learnt the mysteries of the dodge button it won’t matter that you can’t take as much damage as those people wearing gear with toughness/vit since bosses will do their big scary hits during your invulnerability frames.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

colesy.8490:

Or, you can change that PVT to zerker and do even MORE damage, and since you will have learnt the mysteries of the dodge button it won’t matter that you can’t take as much damage as those people wearing gear with toughness/vit since bosses will do their big scary hits during your invulnerability frames.

You sure think that A) all players have infinite dodge, and B ) that players have piles of additional escapes on top of those escapes. I am starting to wonder if you actually even play this game at all…..

AntiGw.9367:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

I don’t agree with this, not even with the MF argument, but the Devs have made pretty much said anything other than the optimal build is not promoting the party dynamics they wish to and thus zerker is the way to go.

That’s not what they said.

Running anything less than the optimal build is not in the spirit of coorperation. Thus, running anything other than zerker is not promoting the spirit of cooperation they wish to see.

We want to remove the choice players are currently being forced to make on their gear: “Do I go with better stats, or better loot?” This isn’t in the spirit of cooperation that Guild Wars 2 is all about. As such, we’ll be removing magic find entirely as an item stat and turning it into account stat that improved the odds of rare drops for all your characters.

The tone of that language suggests that the spirit of cooperation is more important than any individual goal. The goals of the party outweigh the goals of the individual. Thus running the most efficient build is in the BEST interests of the spirit of cooperation.

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convince me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

Mad Rasputin.7809:

AntiGw.9367:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

I don’t agree with this, not even with the MF argument, but the Devs have made pretty much said anything other than the optimal build is not promoting the party dynamics they wish to and thus zerker is the way to go.

That’s not what they said.

Running anything less than the optimal build is not in the spirit of coorperation. Thus, running anything other than zerker is not promoting the spirit of cooperation they wish to see.

We want to remove the choice players are currently being forced to make on their gear: “Do I go with better stats, or better loot?” This isn’t in the spirit of cooperation that Guild Wars 2 is all about. As such, we’ll be removing magic find entirely as an item stat and turning it into account stat that improved the odds of rare drops for all your characters.

The tone of that language suggests that the spirit of cooperation is more important than any individual goal. The goals of the party outweigh the goals of the individual. Thus running the most efficient build is in the BEST interests of the spirit of cooperation.

Again, that’s not what they mean at all.

It takes some pretty biased and twisted logic to interpret that quote the way you did.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Jemmi.6058:

You can enter a dungeon group that did not require a cookie cutter build, but still provide less for your party than you otherwise could, because your concerns are primarily on yourself.
-snip-

See, this is where you go wrong.

You assume that because I am not optimized I am not ‘pulling my weight’ in my dungeon group. The only time most people give a rats kitten about what you are wearing or not wearing is if you are speed clearing. At which point, they want something specific. I don’t go with those groups. I don’t fit their style, they don’t fit mine. You could argue that I am being selfish for opting not to play with them; for choosing not to spec for that availability in my play.

I do play with other people like myself, who simply don’t care about what you are wearing, only about the enjoyment of the game and possibly getting through. While its true I am rarely in a group that fails, even then its not ‘point the finger and blame x because OMG he’s wearing MF gear!’ its more ‘rofl, wtf was that, lets do it again! maybe we shoudl stop and look before we rush ahead though.’

They are different mentalities completely.

You see in some situations my ability to keep my teams’ sorry kittens alive at the boss with my support heals kills my DPS, yet allows us to finish the idiot off without wiping. Means no waypointing out, running back and starting all over. Yet, as per so many prior posts, using armor with a healing stat boost is useless/selfish/a waste. Not in this situation its not, and yet…I am selfish for assisting my team in such a fashion.

On the other hand, you could potentially argue that if I had more punch, the boss would have died faster and my team may not have needed the heals to stay up. Or you could argue ‘they are just bad’ or that I am ‘just bad’ which is completely unfounded since you dont know them or even me. If I stand there and fight, trying to keep us from wiping, I’m selfish. If I wipe and make us run back and start over, I am selfish.

There is no win here…. everything one does is selfish by the opinions of others.

However, I would say that I am not. I play my way in such a fashion that it does not impact anyone that it would bother, which is a key point to selfishness. I don’t ‘lack concern for others.’ However, I’m not going to let their opinions dictate how I play either.

I think you are misunderstanding my point.

I understand where you are coming from and often play with the same playstyle. I also do not think you are doing anything wrong.

That said, by choosing to wear gear which enhances your gameplay while also reducing your effectiveness in a group, you are being selfish. That is because your consideration for your own entertainment is higher than your consideration for others. Again, I do not see anything wrong with this.

There is a post on the previous page which outlines why zerker gear is more optimal. Essentially, due to condition cap + removal of healer + removal of tank + low condition damage + defiant and unshakable, all non-damage builds have become relatively weak in comparison to zerker. Zerker on the other hand not only increases damage, but scales exceptionally well by having 3 traits which scale exponentially.

Another important factor to consider is the intentional design of Arena Net to have damage prevention be the primary way to survive. That means, you should not get hit (often) and that makes toughness and vitality less significant. I have worn many different builds from zerker to pvt to condition etc. In my experience, there is very little significant difference in survivability among them. On fights where I die on zerker, I died on PVT. It just so happens that a one-shot attack kills you no matter what.

Also, in my experience, the condition damage is extremely weak in comparison to zerker. The difference is not some subtle change, but on totally different playing fields.

EDIT: I forgot to address a couple more of your posts. You mentioned something about healing power. You can revive without healing power additions quite easily, and healing power scales very poorly. I was going to make a healing build, because I love healing classes, but the skill is just beyond useless. I too have revived parties or solo killed a boss after my team has wiped, and I run zerker. Running zerker and playing well are not mutually exclusive.

You are also putting quite a few words in my mouth. I said the statement that you are going to play how you want and you don’t care what others think fits the definition of selfishness exactly, which it does. I did not say you were selfish for reviving teammates or defeating a boss.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

I fully support the removal of MF from gear. It’s my hope that with less MF available to players, ANet will relax the drop tables a bit so that all players can enjoy somewhat better drops. More fool I, probably.

As to players deciding what’s acceptable in their dungeon party? Let them be. I just hope that the promised lfg tool will allow players to list such requirements so that people can see what kind of groups are looking for more. If it doesn’t these forums will implode.

You sure think that A) all players have infinite dodge

Play COE, enter an alpha fight. Alpha raises hand, AOE appears.

1…2…dodge.

A few seconds later, repeat.

If out of dodges already, use an invuln.

Now dodge again.

B ) that players have piles of additional escapes on top of those escapes

I have a mesmer and use sword/pistol and sword/focus. I have one invuln and two dodges. I actually tend to outlast heavy classes if things go wrong.

I am starting to wonder if you actually even play this game at all…..

Have you ever run a dungeon with a zerker group and wore zerker yourself?

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

really? ive never met a team who doesnt require zerker in 48+, especially once get to to the 50s even trash mobs will nearly 1 shot you in full sentinels so why bother using anything except zerker
edit: thinking about that not using zerker in fotm 48… how long does that take you on average to finish all 4? my guild teams normally finish it between 45 min – 1 hour

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Please just watch one of obal’s fractal 48 videos. Please.

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

really? ive never met a team who doesnt require zerker in 48+, especially once get to to the 50s even trash mobs will nearly 1 shot you in full sentinels so why bother using anything except zerker

So when you get killed by 2-3 hits by a grub on the shaman fractal in the 40s….please explain what good you are to the team…..

Even with 4 tank guardians covering a zerker, you wouldn’t avoid being hit 2-3 times and being downed. Zerk is not viable in high level fractals. In high level fractals, they get kicked all the time for dying constantly.

Jemmi.6058:

I think you are misunderstanding my point.

I understand where you are coming from and often play with the same playstyle. I also do not think you are doing anything wrong.

That said, by choosing to wear gear which enhances your gameplay while also reducing your effectiveness in a group, you are being selfish. That is because your consideration for your own entertainment is higher than your consideration for others. Again, I do not see anything wrong with this.

There is a post on the previous page which outlines why zerker gear is more optimal. Essentially, due to condition cap + removal of healer + removal of tank + low condition damage + defiant and unshakable, all non-damage builds have become relatively weak in comparison to zerker. Zerker on the other hand not only increases damage, but scales exceptionally well by having 3 traits which scale exponentially.

Another important factor to consider is the intentional design of Arena Net to have damage prevention be the primary way to survive. That means, you should not get hit (often) and that makes toughness and vitality less significant. I have worn many different builds from zerker to pvt to condition etc. In my experience, there is very little significant difference in survivability among them. On fights where I die on zerker, I died on PVT. It just so happens that a one-shot attack kills you no matter what.

Also, in my experience, the condition damage is extremely weak in comparison to zerker. The difference is not some subtle change, but on totally different playing fields.

I think we’re misunderstanding each others points. Thanks for the clarification on yours though. I’m not sure how to work mine in another way to reflect my thoughts on the matter, so I’ll just leave it. =)

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

colesy.8490:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Please just watch one of obal’s fractal 48 videos. Please.

I’m not interested in one player’s experience. I’m interested in the masses, and what is viable for the population of the game as a whole. There’s an exception to EVERY rule. That doesn’t mean it’s not a rule.

Even if there is no holy trinity skills in this game.People will tend to play the holy trinity way.

xephire.8324:

Even if there is no holy trinity skills in this game.People will tend to play the holy trinity way.

The point was that high level fractal groups have a VERY high success rate when you have three guardians. The best runs are guard-guard-guard-warrior-mesmer. None zerker. Full knights gear is a high-level-fractal “given.” Most people run knights and have around 2800-3200 armor, and the guards remove conditions with soldier runes and proper traiting. Tanky and quite a bit of damage.

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

really? ive never met a team who doesnt require zerker in 48+, especially once get to to the 50s even trash mobs will nearly 1 shot you in full sentinels so why bother using anything except zerker

So when you get killed by 2-3 hits by a grub on the shaman fractal in the 40s….please explain what good you are to the team…..

Even with 4 tank guardians covering a zerker, you wouldn’t avoid being hit 2-3 times and being downed. Zerk is not viable in high level fractals. In high level fractals, they get kicked all the time for dying constantly.

if your getting hit by the grubs your doing something wrong…. i rarely if ever get hit by them

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

really? ive never met a team who doesnt require zerker in 48+, especially once get to to the 50s even trash mobs will nearly 1 shot you in full sentinels so why bother using anything except zerker

So when you get killed by 2-3 hits by a grub on the shaman fractal in the 40s….please explain what good you are to the team…..

Even with 4 tank guardians covering a zerker, you wouldn’t avoid being hit 2-3 times and being downed. Zerk is not viable in high level fractals. In high level fractals, they get kicked all the time for dying constantly.

if your getting hit by the grubs your doing something wrong…. i rarely if ever get hit by them

Then you’re running with several guardians, or your lying your face off.

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

Hickeroar.9734:

colesy.8490:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Please just watch one of obal’s fractal 48 videos. Please.

I’m not interested in one player’s experience. I’m interested in the masses, and what is viable for the population of the game as a whole. There’s an exception to EVERY rule. That doesn’t mean it’s not a rule.

It’s not one player’s experience, it’s every good group’s experience at fractal 48.

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

really? ive never met a team who doesnt require zerker in 48+, especially once get to to the 50s even trash mobs will nearly 1 shot you in full sentinels so why bother using anything except zerker

So when you get killed by 2-3 hits by a grub on the shaman fractal in the 40s….please explain what good you are to the team…..

Even with 4 tank guardians covering a zerker, you wouldn’t avoid being hit 2-3 times and being downed. Zerk is not viable in high level fractals. In high level fractals, they get kicked all the time for dying constantly.

if your getting hit by the grubs your doing something wrong…. i rarely if ever get hit by them

Then you’re running with several guardians, or your lying your face off.

1 guard 1 thief 1 mes, if you cant get 100% projectile absorb/reflect from that you shouldnt even be playing this game its to complex for you

colesy.8490:

Hickeroar.9734:

colesy.8490:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Please just watch one of obal’s fractal 48 videos. Please.

I’m not interested in one player’s experience. I’m interested in the masses, and what is viable for the population of the game as a whole. There’s an exception to EVERY rule. That doesn’t mean it’s not a rule.

It’s not one player’s experience, it’s every good group’s experience at fractal 48.

gw2lfg.com

Go pug a lvl 48.

Require zerker gear.

Watch what happens.

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

really? ive never met a team who doesnt require zerker in 48+, especially once get to to the 50s even trash mobs will nearly 1 shot you in full sentinels so why bother using anything except zerker

So when you get killed by 2-3 hits by a grub on the shaman fractal in the 40s….please explain what good you are to the team…..

Even with 4 tank guardians covering a zerker, you wouldn’t avoid being hit 2-3 times and being downed. Zerk is not viable in high level fractals. In high level fractals, they get kicked all the time for dying constantly.

if your getting hit by the grubs your doing something wrong…. i rarely if ever get hit by them

Then you’re running with several guardians, or your lying your face off.

1 guard 1 thief 1 mes, if you cant get 100% projectile absorb/reflect from that you shouldnt even be playing this game its to complex for you

Do the math. You can’t get 100% uptime from those three classes, especially from 360 degrees on the fire shaman.

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

really? ive never met a team who doesnt require zerker in 48+, especially once get to to the 50s even trash mobs will nearly 1 shot you in full sentinels so why bother using anything except zerker

So when you get killed by 2-3 hits by a grub on the shaman fractal in the 40s….please explain what good you are to the team…..

Even with 4 tank guardians covering a zerker, you wouldn’t avoid being hit 2-3 times and being downed. Zerk is not viable in high level fractals. In high level fractals, they get kicked all the time for dying constantly.

if your getting hit by the grubs your doing something wrong…. i rarely if ever get hit by them

Then you’re running with several guardians, or your lying your face off.

1 guard 1 thief 1 mes, if you cant get 100% projectile absorb/reflect from that you shouldnt even be playing this game its to complex for you

Do the math. You can’t get 100% uptime from those three classes, especially from 360 degrees on the fire shaman.

why would we need 100% uptime? we dodge shamans attacks, its the grubs were using those against, and why the hell is your team spread out over 360 degrees

Hickeroar.9734:

colesy.8490:

Hickeroar.9734:

colesy.8490:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Please just watch one of obal’s fractal 48 videos. Please.

I’m not interested in one player’s experience. I’m interested in the masses, and what is viable for the population of the game as a whole. There’s an exception to EVERY rule. That doesn’t mean it’s not a rule.

It’s not one player’s experience, it’s every good group’s experience at fractal 48.

gw2lfg.com

Go pug a lvl 48.

Require zerker gear.

Watch what happens.

Right, because if I wanted a good fractal run I’d find a pug.

Do the math. You can’t get 100% uptime from those three classes, especially from 360 degrees on the fire shaman.

Feedback, temporal curtain, phantasmal warden. Wall of reflection, shield of the avenger, guardian shield 5 (forget the name). I think thief has one or two projectile absorb abilities.

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

That’s a misunderstanding of basic math…

If your four players are all dealing 2k DPS, together they’re dealing 8k DPS total. Increase each player by 100% (4k DPS each), and you doubled to 16kDPS. That’s a 100% increase from the original (8k->16k), not 400%. I would also argue that knights would not cause you to cut your damage in half. Maybe by 1/3 or less.

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convine me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

really? ive never met a team who doesnt require zerker in 48+, especially once get to to the 50s even trash mobs will nearly 1 shot you in full sentinels so why bother using anything except zerker

So when you get killed by 2-3 hits by a grub on the shaman fractal in the 40s….please explain what good you are to the team…..

Even with 4 tank guardians covering a zerker, you wouldn’t avoid being hit 2-3 times and being downed. Zerk is not viable in high level fractals. In high level fractals, they get kicked all the time for dying constantly.

if your getting hit by the grubs your doing something wrong…. i rarely if ever get hit by them

Then you’re running with several guardians, or your lying your face off.

1 guard 1 thief 1 mes, if you cant get 100% projectile absorb/reflect from that you shouldnt even be playing this game its to complex for you

Do the math. You can’t get 100% uptime from those three classes, especially from 360 degrees on the fire shaman.

why would we need 100% uptime? we dodge shamans attacks, its the grubs were using those against, and why the hell is your team spread out over 360 degrees

Grubs spawn in 360 degrees around the players (all over the island). Several dozen of them. They all fire ranged attacks.

(Degrees measure ANGLES….not distance.)

Late to the debate but…

…the real prognosis for this issue isn’t to shout about how the zerkers namecalling people that don’t go full DPS but to alter the content!

Whether it be making it tougher to do direct damage to enemies, making it harder to survive without mitigation stats or having the different stats create different effects, or just evening the playing field.

As far as I’m concerned, you can wear whatever armor you want. Speed isn’t really a factor. People that enforce gear checks and specific armor sets should really blame themselves for the combat being ‘stale’, but if they want to fight a certain way, that’s their business. The problem comes when everything is molded into one featureless blob. Apparently, a hand of God is now required to smack people upside the head for boring-up the game and a shift is required to force variety in the game.

Mentality like the ‘zerker’ zerg is the reason wide nerfs end up happening. Wouldn’t surprise me if crit ends up getting capped at 100 and something like Healing Power gains -%crit to you for every 10 healing power you have.

I’d personally rather have the stats providing alternative story-driven or circumstantial applications but you know how stubborn it is to get people to try new things.

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

That’s a misunderstand of basic math…

If your four players are all dealing 2k DPS, together they’re dealing 8k DPS total. Increase each player by 100% (4k DPS each), and you doubled to 16kDPS. That’s a 100% increase from the original (8k->16k), not 400%. I would also argue that knights would not cause you to cut your damage in half. Maybe by 1/3 or so.

ah my bad your right hasty math, but for knights vs berserkers full berserkers critical damage provides (depending on group comp) around 100% damage bonus (assume 50% base crit chance, disc banner, perma fury = around 75-85% crit chance for ~250% more damage than someone running knights with no crit damage) of course that would vary greatly if the person was using knights with ruby orbs, or getting 30% crit damage from traits

Grubs spawn in 360 degrees around the players (all over the island). Several dozen of them. They all fire ranged attacks.

(Degrees measure ANGLES….not distance.)

so pull them together? ex: shaman whips out his ball, all 5 hop in melee distance and start attacking, mesmer drops feedback to bock projectiles, shield goes down, team retreats to behind grubs, grubs are now only on one side, guardian spams sota and wor

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

You apparently don’t understand the definition of the word “opinion,” because what you’re expressing is PRECISELY an opinion.

No, it’s a logical conclusion.

Then your logic is flawed…. You’re wrong in a myriad of cases.

Convince me, then. Show me a single piece of content in this game’s pve, with the exception of the new patch, where a dps build is not more viable than anything else.

What do you mean by ‘viable’? Faster kills. Faster completion? Survivability?

In this game ‘viable’ is in the eyes of the beholder. You may think that speed or damage is the key. Another may think that ‘build that is fun for them to play’ is the viable choice. Another may think that optimal magic find is the viable option. Yet another may think that survivability is the ticket.

When it comes down to it, whatever is important to you is what is viable. If you believe that zerker armor is the only viable choice, then play full zerker and play with those that also feel this way. No one is forcing you or anyone else to play with MF armor players.

Let’s be clear about one thing. There is no ‘optimal’ armor as a general statement. If you believe one kind of armor is optimal, then it is only optimal for you and those who agree with you. That goes for zerkers or magic finders and any other advocates of different armors.

The different classes/armors/weapons, etc. are all out there for people to fit their own playstyle. None of them are right or wrong. They just are.

Again, if you don’t like MF armor players. Don’t play with them. If you think they are selfish, fine. It doesn’t mean they are, it just means you THINK they are. And MF armor supporters, just because you believe zerkers are elitists doesn’t mean they are it just means you BELIEVE they are.

Play with what and whom you want. Don’t make ridiculous arguments about who’s right or wrong.

Next.

“Believe in the power of our heart! Everything can be good!”

If you want to run a specific composition, let it be known. Period. If you switch midway through the run without notification, that can easily be regarded as selfish. What have we learned then? Different strokes for different folks. If you prefer running MF, simply find a group that doesn’t mind MF. Otherwise, accept the requirements stated in the LFM. It really isn’t that complicated people.

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

That’s a misunderstand of basic math…

If your four players are all dealing 2k DPS, together they’re dealing 8k DPS total. Increase each player by 100% (4k DPS each), and you doubled to 16kDPS. That’s a 100% increase from the original (8k->16k), not 400%. I would also argue that knights would not cause you to cut your damage in half. Maybe by 1/3 or so.

ah my bad your right hasty math, but for knights vs berserkers full berserkers critical damage provides (depending on group comp) around 100% damage bonus (assume 50% base crit chance, disc banner, perma fury = around 75-85% crit chance for ~250% more damage than someone running knights with no crit damage) of course that would vary greatly if the person was using knights with ruby orbs, or getting 30% crit damage from traits

I assumed the player would trait into Power/Prec with Knights. Crit chance on Knights/Berserkers is the same. Crit damage is going to take a hit, along with power, but the overall numbers are not substantially lower. I would personally run a mix of Beryl Jewels instead of Emerald due to the Vit and Crit damage boost.

so pull them together? ex: shaman whips out his ball, all 5 hop in melee distance and start attacking, mesmer drops feedback to bock projectiles, shield goes down, team retreats to behind grubs, grubs are now only on one side, guardian spams sota and wor

You can’t reliably group/pull all the grubs like that. You can TRY and get them congregated, which helps, but the target limit of 5 on pull skills, combined with the amount of time it takes them to self-travel via aggro still leaves a massive time-hole where zerkers are ripped to shreds by the grubs before there’s any reflect up that last more than a couple seconds, or has any relevant amount of coverage.

SalvinValkyries.4501:

If you want to run a specific composition, let it be known. Period. If you switch midway through the run without notification, that can easily be regarded as selfish. What have we learned then? Different strokes for different folks. If you prefer running MF, simply find a group that doesn’t mind MF. Otherwise, accept the requirements stated in the LFM. It really isn’t that complicated people.

Curious, do people with this mentality consider perhaps the game would be better if this weren’t the case? That is, don’t they think the game would be better if other gear-sets were improved to be more than viable or have content that favors different tactics? Even at the cost of effectiveness of berserker gear?

jheryn.8390:

Let’s be clear about one thing. There is no ‘optimal’ armor as a general statement. If you believe one kind of armor is optimal, then it is only optimal for you and those who agree with you. That goes for zerkers or magic finders and any other advocates of different armors.

This pretty much says it all. I’ve said the same thing like 5 times in this thread already. If you can handle it, do it. If what you’re doing can handle it, do it.

First, valuing “your” time over another is, in itself, selfish. Demanding another has to spend a lot of gold on Zerker gear is selfish. Next, what if they have Zerker’s but, it’s green or yellow? Would they get kicked too?

This BS conversation is simply that, BS. Unless someone scientifically test’s this, everyone is spouting opinions. Even if the time is 20% faster, that doesn’t mean it was 20% more fun.

As a WvW player, I do not use Zerker. Occasionally I may play with it but, the sustainability from toughness, vitality, and healing become quite evident.

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

That’s a misunderstand of basic math…

If your four players are all dealing 2k DPS, together they’re dealing 8k DPS total. Increase each player by 100% (4k DPS each), and you doubled to 16kDPS. That’s a 100% increase from the original (8k->16k), not 400%. I would also argue that knights would not cause you to cut your damage in half. Maybe by 1/3 or so.

ah my bad your right hasty math, but for knights vs berserkers full berserkers critical damage provides (depending on group comp) around 100% damage bonus (assume 50% base crit chance, disc banner, perma fury = around 75-85% crit chance for ~250% more damage than someone running knights with no crit damage) of course that would vary greatly if the person was using knights with ruby orbs, or getting 30% crit damage from traits

I assumed the player would trait into Power/Prec with Knights. Crit chance on Knights/Berserkers is the same. Crit damage is going to take a hit, along with power, but the overall numbers are not substantially lower. I would personally run a mix of Beryl Jewels instead of Emerald due to the Vit and Crit damage boost.

so pull them together? ex: shaman whips out his ball, all 5 hop in melee distance and start attacking, mesmer drops feedback to bock projectiles, shield goes down, team retreats to behind grubs, grubs are now only on one side, guardian spams sota and wor

You can’t reliably group/pull all the grubs like that. You can TRY and get them congregated, which helps, but the target limit of 5 on pull skills, combined with the amount of time it takes them to self-travel via aggro still leaves a massive time-hole where zerkers are ripped to shreds by the grubs before there’s any reflect up that last more than a couple seconds, or has any relevant amount of coverage.

dont pull them, once shield dies feedback typically goes down about the same time, double dodge roll to one side (your now out of grubs), spam reflects, (shortest would be smoke wall at 8? not sure), then wall of reflection 12 seconds, sota 20 (30 traited) seconds, thats a total of 40(50) seconds of no grub attacks, more than enough time to kill them all

DiogoSilva.7089:

“Believe in the power of our heart! Everything can be good!”

Except Rangers . . .

It doesn’t bother me that “Anything less than Zerk is being selfish” is being said by dungeon running groups. I don’t get invited to them anyway, as a Ranger, so it doesn’t really affect me

Also, I recall being told to spec for Healing as a Ranger, boosts the survivability into interesting levels.