Guild Wars 2

“What fun is what matters the most!” is all pretty words and all, but if this game’s design incentivates zerker gear over anything else, then that’s how this game is designed, and you can’t do much about it other than accept it and wait for a change in the future.

If reality was as simple as “if we believe that everything is good, a miracle happens and it turns out to be true!”, then developers would never need to balance their game. Players would simply “believe” what they want, and puff, it would happen.

jheryn.8390:

No one is forcing you or anyone else to play with MF armor players.

If you play with friends, this discussion is meaningless. Noone cares if 5 buddys play fotm 70 in full MF gear.

Its only about pugs. And in a pug, everyone can force me to play with him, even if he is a full MF-leech. I can’t do anything about it.

You can post something like “lf3m CoE path 1/2/3, any class, please bring decent damage – no magicfind”. Then, suddently, Wombi teh Warrior joins your party.

…And now?

As long as I have no tool to decide what gear Wombi has, he can do whatever he wants.

Kicking somebody beacause of “wrong” gear is NOT the same thing as forcing your playstyle on others. Its nothing more than your personal freedom to decide whith who you want to play. I don’t loose anything if someone kicks me.

If I break into your house and hold a gun against your head, well, then we can talk about “force”….

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

That’s a misunderstand of basic math…

If your four players are all dealing 2k DPS, together they’re dealing 8k DPS total. Increase each player by 100% (4k DPS each), and you doubled to 16kDPS. That’s a 100% increase from the original (8k->16k), not 400%. I would also argue that knights would not cause you to cut your damage in half. Maybe by 1/3 or so.

ah my bad your right hasty math, but for knights vs berserkers full berserkers critical damage provides (depending on group comp) around 100% damage bonus (assume 50% base crit chance, disc banner, perma fury = around 75-85% crit chance for ~250% more damage than someone running knights with no crit damage) of course that would vary greatly if the person was using knights with ruby orbs, or getting 30% crit damage from traits

I assumed the player would trait into Power/Prec with Knights. Crit chance on Knights/Berserkers is the same. Crit damage is going to take a hit, along with power, but the overall numbers are not substantially lower. I would personally run a mix of Beryl Jewels instead of Emerald due to the Vit and Crit damage boost.

so pull them together? ex: shaman whips out his ball, all 5 hop in melee distance and start attacking, mesmer drops feedback to bock projectiles, shield goes down, team retreats to behind grubs, grubs are now only on one side, guardian spams sota and wor

You can’t reliably group/pull all the grubs like that. You can TRY and get them congregated, which helps, but the target limit of 5 on pull skills, combined with the amount of time it takes them to self-travel via aggro still leaves a massive time-hole where zerkers are ripped to shreds by the grubs before there’s any reflect up that last more than a couple seconds, or has any relevant amount of coverage.

dont pull them, once shield dies feedback typically goes down about the same time, double dodge roll to one side (your now out of grubs), spam reflects, (shortest would be smoke wall at 8? not sure), then wall of reflection 12 seconds, sota 20 (30 traited) seconds, thats a total of 40(50) seconds of no grub attacks, more than enough time to kill them all

One feedback covers the entire island? News to me….

Molch.2078:

…And now?

You run the dungeon. :-)

Molch.2078:

jheryn.8390:

No one is forcing you or anyone else to play with MF armor players.

If you play with friends, this discussion is meaningless. Noone cares if 5 buddys play fotm 70 in full MF gear.

Its only about pugs. And in a pug, everyone can force me to play with him, even if he is a full MF-leech. I can’t do anything about it.

You can post something like “lf3m CoE path 1/2/3, any class, please bring decent damage – no magicfind”. Then, suddently, Wombi teh Warrior joins your party.

…And now?

Yep still up to you. If someone is playing MF armor and you know about it, drop out and find a different group. Or kick the offender if you specified ‘no MF’ and find another player. You are not forced to play with anyone.

AntiGw.9367:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

AntiGw.9367:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

I don’t agree with this, not even with the MF argument, but the Devs have made pretty much said anything other than the optimal build is not promoting the party dynamics they wish to and thus zerker is the way to go.

That’s not what they said.

Running anything less than the optimal build is not in the spirit of coorperation. Thus, running anything other than zerker is not promoting the spirit of cooperation they wish to see.

We want to remove the choice players are currently being forced to make on their gear: “Do I go with better stats, or better loot?” This isn’t in the spirit of cooperation that Guild Wars 2 is all about. As such, we’ll be removing magic find entirely as an item stat and turning it into account stat that improved the odds of rare drops for all your characters.

The tone of that language suggests that the spirit of cooperation is more important than any individual goal. The goals of the party outweigh the goals of the individual. Thus running the most efficient build is in the BEST interests of the spirit of cooperation.

Again, that’s not what they mean at all.

It takes some pretty biased and twisted logic to interpret that quote the way you did.

I still read it as the goals of the party are more important than the goals of the individual. That means optimal build for the party is best.

Not really sure how you interpret their comment, but evidently my reading and interpretation of their comment is biased and twisted.

jheryn.8390:

Molch.2078:

jheryn.8390:

No one is forcing you or anyone else to play with MF armor players.

If you play with friends, this discussion is meaningless. Noone cares if 5 buddys play fotm 70 in full MF gear.

Its only about pugs. And in a pug, everyone can force me to play with him, even if he is a full MF-leech. I can’t do anything about it.

You can post something like “lf3m CoE path 1/2/3, any class, please bring decent damage – no magicfind”. Then, suddently, Wombi teh Warrior joins your party.

…And now?

Yep still up to you. If someone is playing MF armor and you know about it, drop out and find a different group. Or kick the offender if you specified ‘no MF’ and find another player. You are not forced to play with anyone.

Edited the post a few times, sorry

The point is: I don’t know. How should I?

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

That’s a misunderstand of basic math…

If your four players are all dealing 2k DPS, together they’re dealing 8k DPS total. Increase each player by 100% (4k DPS each), and you doubled to 16kDPS. That’s a 100% increase from the original (8k->16k), not 400%. I would also argue that knights would not cause you to cut your damage in half. Maybe by 1/3 or so.

ah my bad your right hasty math, but for knights vs berserkers full berserkers critical damage provides (depending on group comp) around 100% damage bonus (assume 50% base crit chance, disc banner, perma fury = around 75-85% crit chance for ~250% more damage than someone running knights with no crit damage) of course that would vary greatly if the person was using knights with ruby orbs, or getting 30% crit damage from traits

I assumed the player would trait into Power/Prec with Knights. Crit chance on Knights/Berserkers is the same. Crit damage is going to take a hit, along with power, but the overall numbers are not substantially lower. I would personally run a mix of Beryl Jewels instead of Emerald due to the Vit and Crit damage boost.

so pull them together? ex: shaman whips out his ball, all 5 hop in melee distance and start attacking, mesmer drops feedback to bock projectiles, shield goes down, team retreats to behind grubs, grubs are now only on one side, guardian spams sota and wor

You can’t reliably group/pull all the grubs like that. You can TRY and get them congregated, which helps, but the target limit of 5 on pull skills, combined with the amount of time it takes them to self-travel via aggro still leaves a massive time-hole where zerkers are ripped to shreds by the grubs before there’s any reflect up that last more than a couple seconds, or has any relevant amount of coverage.

dont pull them, once shield dies feedback typically goes down about the same time, double dodge roll to one side (your now out of grubs), spam reflects, (shortest would be smoke wall at 8? not sure), then wall of reflection 12 seconds, sota 20 (30 traited) seconds, thats a total of 40(50) seconds of no grub attacks, more than enough time to kill them all

One feedback covers the entire island? News to me….

now your just not reading, why would you be spread out over the island? way more efficient to jump into melee range once he bubbles up as melee attacks are normally much faster, and OMG WTF feedback covers all 5

Mad Rasputin.7809:

AntiGw.9367:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

AntiGw.9367:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

I don’t agree with this, not even with the MF argument, but the Devs have made pretty much said anything other than the optimal build is not promoting the party dynamics they wish to and thus zerker is the way to go.

That’s not what they said.

Running anything less than the optimal build is not in the spirit of coorperation. Thus, running anything other than zerker is not promoting the spirit of cooperation they wish to see.

We want to remove the choice players are currently being forced to make on their gear: “Do I go with better stats, or better loot?” This isn’t in the spirit of cooperation that Guild Wars 2 is all about. As such, we’ll be removing magic find entirely as an item stat and turning it into account stat that improved the odds of rare drops for all your characters.

The tone of that language suggests that the spirit of cooperation is more important than any individual goal. The goals of the party outweigh the goals of the individual. Thus running the most efficient build is in the BEST interests of the spirit of cooperation.

Again, that’s not what they mean at all.

It takes some pretty biased and twisted logic to interpret that quote the way you did.

I still read it as the goals of the party are more important than the goals of the individual. That means optimal build for the party is best.

Not really sure how you interpret their comment, but evidently my reading and interpretation of their comment is biased and twisted.

So should everyone carry 6 sets of gear to gear appropriately for whatever party they’re in? Regardless of what people are ignorantly arguing here, it’s a fact that zerker is not the best gear for every person and every scenario.

What is the best for every party? How do you determine it? How do you instantly gear and trait everyone for whatever you’re doing?

Oh wait, GW2 was designed so that almost doesn’t matter.

If YOU want 6 minute CoF P1 speed runs, YOU can run zerker and YOU can run with 4 other zerkers who are very skilled/trained at accomplishing that one goal that YOU want. I ran a CoF P1 two days ago. One person had full zerker. It took 10 minutes. No one died. We had fun.

So what’s best for the party?

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

That’s a misunderstand of basic math…

If your four players are all dealing 2k DPS, together they’re dealing 8k DPS total. Increase each player by 100% (4k DPS each), and you doubled to 16kDPS. That’s a 100% increase from the original (8k->16k), not 400%. I would also argue that knights would not cause you to cut your damage in half. Maybe by 1/3 or so.

ah my bad your right hasty math, but for knights vs berserkers full berserkers critical damage provides (depending on group comp) around 100% damage bonus (assume 50% base crit chance, disc banner, perma fury = around 75-85% crit chance for ~250% more damage than someone running knights with no crit damage) of course that would vary greatly if the person was using knights with ruby orbs, or getting 30% crit damage from traits

I assumed the player would trait into Power/Prec with Knights. Crit chance on Knights/Berserkers is the same. Crit damage is going to take a hit, along with power, but the overall numbers are not substantially lower. I would personally run a mix of Beryl Jewels instead of Emerald due to the Vit and Crit damage boost.

so pull them together? ex: shaman whips out his ball, all 5 hop in melee distance and start attacking, mesmer drops feedback to bock projectiles, shield goes down, team retreats to behind grubs, grubs are now only on one side, guardian spams sota and wor

You can’t reliably group/pull all the grubs like that. You can TRY and get them congregated, which helps, but the target limit of 5 on pull skills, combined with the amount of time it takes them to self-travel via aggro still leaves a massive time-hole where zerkers are ripped to shreds by the grubs before there’s any reflect up that last more than a couple seconds, or has any relevant amount of coverage.

dont pull them, once shield dies feedback typically goes down about the same time, double dodge roll to one side (your now out of grubs), spam reflects, (shortest would be smoke wall at 8? not sure), then wall of reflection 12 seconds, sota 20 (30 traited) seconds, thats a total of 40(50) seconds of no grub attacks, more than enough time to kill them all

One feedback covers the entire island? News to me….

now your just not reading, why would you be spread out over the island? way more efficient to jump into melee range once he bubbles up as melee attacks are normally much faster, and OMG WTF feedback covers all 5

Feedback needs a target, or you have to “blind” target it. If the former, you’re sitting under feedback with enemies. If the latter, you have to run to it….which means you’re exposed for several seconds which is more than enough time to be immobilized several times over and….dead.

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

That’s a misunderstand of basic math…

If your four players are all dealing 2k DPS, together they’re dealing 8k DPS total. Increase each player by 100% (4k DPS each), and you doubled to 16kDPS. That’s a 100% increase from the original (8k->16k), not 400%. I would also argue that knights would not cause you to cut your damage in half. Maybe by 1/3 or so.

ah my bad your right hasty math, but for knights vs berserkers full berserkers critical damage provides (depending on group comp) around 100% damage bonus (assume 50% base crit chance, disc banner, perma fury = around 75-85% crit chance for ~250% more damage than someone running knights with no crit damage) of course that would vary greatly if the person was using knights with ruby orbs, or getting 30% crit damage from traits

I assumed the player would trait into Power/Prec with Knights. Crit chance on Knights/Berserkers is the same. Crit damage is going to take a hit, along with power, but the overall numbers are not substantially lower. I would personally run a mix of Beryl Jewels instead of Emerald due to the Vit and Crit damage boost.

so pull them together? ex: shaman whips out his ball, all 5 hop in melee distance and start attacking, mesmer drops feedback to bock projectiles, shield goes down, team retreats to behind grubs, grubs are now only on one side, guardian spams sota and wor

You can’t reliably group/pull all the grubs like that. You can TRY and get them congregated, which helps, but the target limit of 5 on pull skills, combined with the amount of time it takes them to self-travel via aggro still leaves a massive time-hole where zerkers are ripped to shreds by the grubs before there’s any reflect up that last more than a couple seconds, or has any relevant amount of coverage.

dont pull them, once shield dies feedback typically goes down about the same time, double dodge roll to one side (your now out of grubs), spam reflects, (shortest would be smoke wall at 8? not sure), then wall of reflection 12 seconds, sota 20 (30 traited) seconds, thats a total of 40(50) seconds of no grub attacks, more than enough time to kill them all

One feedback covers the entire island? News to me….

now your just not reading, why would you be spread out over the island? way more efficient to jump into melee range once he bubbles up as melee attacks are normally much faster, and OMG WTF feedback covers all 5

Feedback needs a target, or you have to “blind” target it. If the former, you’re sitting under feedback with enemies. If the latter, you have to run to it….which means you’re exposed for several seconds which is more than enough time to be immobilized several times over and….dead.

Your target is the shaman. You melee range the shaman so you are all under it. Dome covers you 5 and bubbled shaman. Dome blocks elementals.

i’ve noticed the more i play and the better and more comfortable i get with my characters, the more i find myself trying to push my damage higher and consequently dropping gear with vita and toughness.

As long as most danger can just be dodged, blocked, and avoided without relying on stats to mitigate the damage, i don’t see the point in investing in stats that don’t increase damage.

Another thing i’ve noticed, especially when my builds get progressive glassier, is when i run with a lower dps group, the fights take longer and the chance i might miss my dodges increases by a lot. So, while i may not get dropped in a fight that takes 3 minutes, chances are i’ll get dropped in a fight that takes 8 minutes.

So, if you build for damage, you are more successful running with other people that build the same, since the fights tend to be a lot shorter. If everyone stacks vita and toughness, you are better equipped to withstand the longer fights.

Otherwise, good thought OP. I never really considered how the mindset behind the elimination of MF is very similar to the DPS only mindset.

Jemmi.6058:

Your target is the shaman. You melee range the shaman so you are all under it. Dome covers you 5 and bubbled shaman. Dome blocks elementals.

Even worse. Shaman moves, you still have to RUN to the target, and grubs will be under the dome as well. That also doesn’t accomplish the goal of pulling/grouping up the grubs. As soon as that’s over you have a choice of dying by boss AOE, or dying by grubs. I got the 500-fractals achieve 6 months ago. I’ve run TONS of 40+ fractals, and I’ve never ONCE seen that tactic used.

The ironic part about this whole thing is that with all the “ONLY ZERKER” arguments you’re all spouting, this tactic (if it would even work 5% of the time) still requires a tank guardian.

Hickeroar.9734:

Jemmi.6058:

Your target is the shaman. You melee range the shaman so you are all under it. Dome covers you 5 and bubbled shaman. Dome blocks elementals.

Even worse. Shaman moves, you still have to RUN to the target, and grubs will be under the dome as well. That also doesn’t accomplish the goal of pulling/grouping up the grubs. As soon as that’s over you have a choice of dying by boss AOE, or dying by grubs. I got the 500-fractals achieve 6 months ago. I’ve run TONS of 40+ fractals, and I’ve never ONCE seen that tactic used.

The ironic part about this whole thing is that with all the “ONLY ZERKER” arguments you’re all spouting, this tactic (if it would even work 5% of the time) still requires a tank guardian.

this "tactic’ is an example of how a competent team would kill shaman, and shaman does move tahts why everyone gets into melee range and once grubs start attacking mesmer drops feedback, feedback also blocks projectiles inside the dome, if your playing with competent players then the bubble will be down before feedback drops, double dodge roll backwards and 0 damage taken

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Jemmi.6058:

Your target is the shaman. You melee range the shaman so you are all under it. Dome covers you 5 and bubbled shaman. Dome blocks elementals.

Even worse. Shaman moves, you still have to RUN to the target, and grubs will be under the dome as well. That also doesn’t accomplish the goal of pulling/grouping up the grubs. As soon as that’s over you have a choice of dying by boss AOE, or dying by grubs. I got the 500-fractals achieve 6 months ago. I’ve run TONS of 40+ fractals, and I’ve never ONCE seen that tactic used.

The ironic part about this whole thing is that with all the “ONLY ZERKER” arguments you’re all spouting, this tactic (if it would even work 5% of the time) still requires a tank guardian.

this "tactic’ is an example of how a competent team would kill shaman, and shaman does move tahts why everyone gets into melee range and once grubs start attacking mesmer drops feedback, feedback also blocks projectiles inside the dome, if your playing with competent players then the bubble will be down before feedback drops, double dodge roll backwards and 0 damage taken

I get the feeling you watched a video and now you feel like you’re an expert… Experience and theory rarely match up. Great plan on paper…..maybe. It might not result in a wipe about 5% of the time.

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Jemmi.6058:

Your target is the shaman. You melee range the shaman so you are all under it. Dome covers you 5 and bubbled shaman. Dome blocks elementals.

Even worse. Shaman moves, you still have to RUN to the target, and grubs will be under the dome as well. That also doesn’t accomplish the goal of pulling/grouping up the grubs. As soon as that’s over you have a choice of dying by boss AOE, or dying by grubs. I got the 500-fractals achieve 6 months ago. I’ve run TONS of 40+ fractals, and I’ve never ONCE seen that tactic used.

The ironic part about this whole thing is that with all the “ONLY ZERKER” arguments you’re all spouting, this tactic (if it would even work 5% of the time) still requires a tank guardian.

this "tactic’ is an example of how a competent team would kill shaman, and shaman does move tahts why everyone gets into melee range and once grubs start attacking mesmer drops feedback, feedback also blocks projectiles inside the dome, if your playing with competent players then the bubble will be down before feedback drops, double dodge roll backwards and 0 damage taken

I get the feeling you watched a video and now you feel like you’re an expert… Experience and theory rarely match up. Great plan on paper…..maybe. It might not result in a wipe about 5% of the time.

except my guild uses the same basic tactic on multiple 48 runs per day (multiple groups not multiple runs per group)

edit: wasnt aware people didnt use a tactic like this, then again never pugged anything above fotm 20

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Clumsy.6257:

Hickeroar.9734:

Lokki.1092:

Hickeroar.9734:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hickeroar.9734:

High level fractals. If you believe zerker is viable in 40+ fractals….you’ve obviously never run them.

Isn’t a fractals group consisted of a defensive guardian and 4 zerkers? Tell me, what’s the point of toughness or vitality, when enemies one hit kill you with or without those stats? The difference between running a zerker and a non-zerker in high level fractals, is the difference between killing faster or killing slower.

They don’t call the “holy trinity of fractals” guardian-guardian-guardian for nothing. 4 zerks and a guardian is worthless in most cases. One guardian can’t maintain enough uptime on blocks/reflect to protect 4 zerkers.

4 zerker fractals are actually quite common, almost standard at 40+ as many people have pointed out. The most popular video guides are of 4 zerker teams…

Again not saying that another makeup cant beat it but because of the way content is made everyone at higher tiers of PvE are 1-3 shot. dealing 400% more damage is just more valuable then because we all have the same survivability anyways.

Zerker doesn’t provide 400% more damage than knights. Not even REMOTELY close.

1 zerker vs 1 knights = ~100% more damage x 4 = 400%, critical damage is amazing isnt it?

That’s a misunderstand of basic math…

If your four players are all dealing 2k DPS, together they’re dealing 8k DPS total. Increase each player by 100% (4k DPS each), and you doubled to 16kDPS. That’s a 100% increase from the original (8k->16k), not 400%. I would also argue that knights would not cause you to cut your damage in half. Maybe by 1/3 or so.

ah my bad your right hasty math, but for knights vs berserkers full berserkers critical damage provides (depending on group comp) around 100% damage bonus (assume 50% base crit chance, disc banner, perma fury = around 75-85% crit chance for ~250% more damage than someone running knights with no crit damage) of course that would vary greatly if the person was using knights with ruby orbs, or getting 30% crit damage from traits

I assumed the player would trait into Power/Prec with Knights. Crit chance on Knights/Berserkers is the same. Crit damage is going to take a hit, along with power, but the overall numbers are not substantially lower. I would personally run a mix of Beryl Jewels instead of Emerald due to the Vit and Crit damage boost.

so pull them together? ex: shaman whips out his ball, all 5 hop in melee distance and start attacking, mesmer drops feedback to bock projectiles, shield goes down, team retreats to behind grubs, grubs are now only on one side, guardian spams sota and wor

You can’t reliably group/pull all the grubs like that. You can TRY and get them congregated, which helps, but the target limit of 5 on pull skills, combined with the amount of time it takes them to self-travel via aggro still leaves a massive time-hole where zerkers are ripped to shreds by the grubs before there’s any reflect up that last more than a couple seconds, or has any relevant amount of coverage.

dont pull them, once shield dies feedback typically goes down about the same time, double dodge roll to one side (your now out of grubs), spam reflects, (shortest would be smoke wall at 8? not sure), then wall of reflection 12 seconds, sota 20 (30 traited) seconds, thats a total of 40(50) seconds of no grub attacks, more than enough time to kill them all

lol I never said Zerker was 400% more damage than knight. Where did this even spawn from?

I love zerk players. I love to see them dance and jump and roll on the floor while I’m face-tanking stuff. Its like a monkey show for me.

ERMEGHERD DPS!!!!!!!!!

/flameshield

And just how are you going to be tanking when the enemies are hitting the guy doing the most damage instead?

colesy.8490:

And just how are you going to be tanking when the enemies are hitting the guy doing the most damage instead?

So much truth

Lokki.1092:

colesy.8490:

And just how are you going to be tanking when the enemies are hitting the guy doing the most damage instead?

So much truth

this kind of truth is relative to your own experiences.

In my case, they just don’t, at least not in my party. Somehow (and seriously somehow cause i have no idea how it works behind the curtain) game’s secret aggro formula works just perfect with me (almost 4K armor, 35K hp, 3.6K attak power, always shield on and closest target to the mob). It is sooooo rare that any mob choose a different character than me that it only occurs when a character is SO weak (around 15 levels lower) that it stick to it until its portrait is gray. Besides that case, that never happens.

Still nice to see monkeys jumping and panicking with red circles “aaahhh I’m lvl 80 with less than 20K hp!!! aaaaaah!!!”

Mesket.5728:

Lokki.1092:

colesy.8490:

And just how are you going to be tanking when the enemies are hitting the guy doing the most damage instead?

So much truth

this kind of truth is relative to your own experiences.

In my case, they just don’t, at least not in my party. Somehow (and seriously somehow cause i have no idea how it works behind the curtain) game’s secret aggro formula works just perfect with me (almost 4K armor, 35K hp, 3.6K attak power, always shield on and closest target to the mob). It is sooooo rare that any mob choose a different character than me that it only occurs when a character is SO weak (around 15 levels lower) that it stick to it until its portrait is gray. Besides that case, that never happens.

Still nice to see monkeys jumping and panicking with red circles “aaahhh I’m lvl 80 with less than 20K hp!!! aaaaaah!!!”

Why do they need to jump around in panic? It’s your job as a Tank to help them out, isn’t it?

Mesket.5728:

Lokki.1092:

colesy.8490:

And just how are you going to be tanking when the enemies are hitting the guy doing the most damage instead?

So much truth

this kind of truth is relative to your own experiences.

In my case, they just don’t, at least not in my party. Somehow (and seriously somehow cause i have no idea how it works behind the curtain) game’s secret aggro formula works just perfect with me (almost 4K armor, 35K hp, 3.6K attak power, always shield on and closest target to the mob). It is sooooo rare that any mob choose a different character than me that it only occurs when a character is SO weak (around 15 levels lower) that it stick to it until its portrait is gray. Besides that case, that never happens.

Still nice to see monkeys jumping and panicking with red circles “aaahhh I’m lvl 80 with less than 20K hp!!! aaaaaah!!!”

You do realize that over 1/3 of the classes in this game would have to build 100% defensively to get anywhere near that armor and another 1/3 can only barely get over 20k HP with full defensive gear and food buffs… right? Not every class gets a base 2k Armor and 20k health…

Also… Do you just stand in the red circles? I would like to see a vid of your face tanking, not dodging, or jumping out of red circles style. I bet we could all learn a lot.

Leo G.4501:

SalvinValkyries.4501:

If you want to run a specific composition, let it be known. Period. If you switch midway through the run without notification, that can easily be regarded as selfish. What have we learned then? Different strokes for different folks. If you prefer running MF, simply find a group that doesn’t mind MF. Otherwise, accept the requirements stated in the LFM. It really isn’t that complicated people.

Curious, do people with this mentality consider perhaps the game would be better if this weren’t the case? That is, don’t they think the game would be better if other gear-sets were improved to be more than viable or have content that favors different tactics? Even at the cost of effectiveness of berserker gear?

Whether people like it or not, min-maxing will exist. There will always be people that will want to optimize their gear as often as their strategies. I’m one such person. That said, I do not expect others to enjoy this style of play, consequently, I tend to gravitate towards like-minded individuals.

Similarly, when I am running with strangers, I do not expect them to conform to my exacting standards. Frankly, it’s not my business. Especially as it was my choice to join that group. Of course, if we happen to be hitting the proverbial wall, I’ll suggest an alternative and leave it at that.

People are trying to proselytize two causes:

01) Care about min-max
02) Don’t care about min-max

Point being, it’s a matter of choice. It’s nonsensical to try and shoehorn one into another. That’s the beauty of LFG/LFM. You state what you require/expect and take it from there. Simply put, join and/or start groups that meet your requirements! If the LFG/LFM is vague, ask what the group wants before getting started.

Molch.2078:

Mesket.5728:

Lokki.1092:

colesy.8490:

And just how are you going to be tanking when the enemies are hitting the guy doing the most damage instead?

So much truth

this kind of truth is relative to your own experiences.

In my case, they just don’t, at least not in my party. Somehow (and seriously somehow cause i have no idea how it works behind the curtain) game’s secret aggro formula works just perfect with me (almost 4K armor, 35K hp, 3.6K attak power, always shield on and closest target to the mob). It is sooooo rare that any mob choose a different character than me that it only occurs when a character is SO weak (around 15 levels lower) that it stick to it until its portrait is gray. Besides that case, that never happens.

Still nice to see monkeys jumping and panicking with red circles “aaahhh I’m lvl 80 with less than 20K hp!!! aaaaaah!!!”

Why do they need to jump around in panic? It’s your job as a Tank to help them out, isn’t it?

Because the only thing he can actually tank are forum members after casting trollbait.

Lokki.1092:

Also… Do you just stand in the red circles? I would like to see a vid of your face tanking, not dodging, or jumping out of red circles style. I bet we could all learn a lot.

On alpha in p2/p3…if possible

colesy.8490:

Molch.2078:

Mesket.5728:

Lokki.1092:

colesy.8490:

And just how are you going to be tanking when the enemies are hitting the guy doing the most damage instead?

So much truth

this kind of truth is relative to your own experiences.

In my case, they just don’t, at least not in my party. Somehow (and seriously somehow cause i have no idea how it works behind the curtain) game’s secret aggro formula works just perfect with me (almost 4K armor, 35K hp, 3.6K attak power, always shield on and closest target to the mob). It is sooooo rare that any mob choose a different character than me that it only occurs when a character is SO weak (around 15 levels lower) that it stick to it until its portrait is gray. Besides that case, that never happens.

Still nice to see monkeys jumping and panicking with red circles “aaahhh I’m lvl 80 with less than 20K hp!!! aaaaaah!!!”

Why do they need to jump around in panic? It’s your job as a Tank to help them out, isn’t it?

Because the only thing he can actually tank are forum members after casting trollbait.

shhhhhh

no srsly, glass cannons are fun! free XP bags to pick from the ground with the F key… usually followed by a “ty” chat message.

/popcorn

Okay, sorry, I thought this topic was more pve related.

Mobs usually go for the highest toughness, as a full zerk mostly pugging arah, lupi never runs to me first, never, colesy’s statement about bosses attacking highest damage is very wrong, if it isn’t, then pvt rangers do more damage than 100b full zerk…

Damage, proximity and toughness are the main factors.

Aggro based on toughness in boss encounters seems to be really random in my experience. Whenever I’m in pugs, for reason I’m always an aggro magnet playing full glass cannon.

colesy.8490:

Damage, proximity and toughness are the main factors.

Aggro based on toughness in boss encounters seems to be really random in my experience. Whenever I’m in pugs, for reason I’m always an aggro magnet playing full glass cannon.

9/10 players are glass cannons. Most accurate asumption will be that you were running with other glass cannons… most of the times… if not any time… all the time.

Bismuth.3165:

Mobs usually go for the highest toughness, as a full zerk mostly pugging arah, lupi never runs to me first, never, colesy’s statement about bosses attacking highest damage is very wrong, if it isn’t, then pvt rangers do more damage than 100b full zerk…

This is all speculation. Simply put we do not know how aggro works. The best Idea we have so far is 5 points

1. closest proximity
2. any DPS
3. top DPS
4. most armor
5. shield equipped

But we don’t know how those are weighted at all or how they interact. I can say from experience that I have walked past people fighting mobs that suddenly decide to attack me, I wasn’t even in the fight at all but I’m the highest threat to them.

And we’ve all been in that situation where a boss just will not leave you alone the whole fight. You are dealing less damage than everyone because you are constantly dodging or healing but still he wont leave you alone.

Aggro is a coin toss right now. somewhere between those 5 points is where a “Tank” should be but since we don’t know, and there is no snap aggro, tanking is worthless. Even Mr 35k hp 4000 armor admitted to times when his party member gets focused and killed because he cant get or keep aggro.

Molch.2078:

Okay, sorry, I thought this topic was more pve related.

Oh poor boy you didn’t understand what he said. Tsk tsk

colesy.8490:

Damage, proximity and toughness are the main factors.

Aggro based on toughness in boss encounters seems to be really random in my experience. Whenever I’m in pugs, for reason I’m always an aggro magnet playing full glass cannon.

But you tend to play with other glass cannons, no? That may be part of it.

I myself think it’s more random. Sometimes they go for toughness, sometimes for something else.

While I don’t think “tanking” is viable (as in the traditional role), it’s illogical to draw the conclusion that defensive stats are thus “wasted”. You don’t need a tank, but for the same reasons many players find defensive stats useful (and some Profession builds actually benefit from the approach.)

(Basically, for many people “if there’s no tank, why go for defensive stats?” which is not logical to me at all, no offense intended. Lacking a trinity doesn’t mean we must totally ignore defensive stats. Of course there’s nothing wrong with Berserker’s, but there is no inherent “evil” in those who choose to use anything else just because they don’t play “zerk-way”.)

Enewia.1356:

Molch.2078:

Okay, sorry, I thought this topic was more pve related.

Oh poor boy you didn’t understand what he said. Tsk tsk

Not sure if insult or …

Lokki.1092:

Bismuth.3165:

Mobs usually go for the highest toughness, as a full zerk mostly pugging arah, lupi never runs to me first, never, colesy’s statement about bosses attacking highest damage is very wrong, if it isn’t, then pvt rangers do more damage than 100b full zerk…

This is all speculation. Simply put we do not know how aggro works. The best Idea we have so far is 5 points

1. closest proximity
2. any DPS
3. top DPS
4. most armor
5. shield equipped

But we don’t know how those are weighted at all or how they interact. I can say from experience that I have walked past people fighting mobs that suddenly decide to attack me, I wasn’t even in the fight at all but I’m the highest threat to them.

And we’ve all been in that situation where a boss just will not leave you alone the whole fight. You are dealing less damage than everyone because you are constantly dodging or healing but still he wont leave you alone.

*Aggro is a coin toss right now. somewhere between those 5 points is where a “Tank” should be but since we don’t know, and there is no snap aggro, tanking is worthless. Even Mr 35k hp 4000 armor admitted to times when his party member gets focused and killed because he cant get or keep aggro. *

Oh no, trust me, I’m narrowing it down… its the very very veeeery weak targets that gets it and it seems to be set on stone. When I run with someone extremely weak then its always like that. Most of the time running a friend’s alt.

All I can say is that heavy defensive oriented stats (maxed, not that knight gear using GS lie) 99.999% of the times gets the aggro against zerk players BUT you don’t get to see that much don’t you?

Arguably, a Guardian (or other class perhaps) with a toughness build can be an asset to a party, if playing the Anchor role. Of course then it is best for them to supplement their build with a fair amount of zerker gear once they have enough survivability to take most the hits incoming to the party. Personally I’m not sure exactly which is the most optimal, having an Anchor (with some zerkers) in a party of zerkers, or simply an entire party of zerkers.

Boon duration can be useful for stacking might and fury (which is basically just more zerker stats). Condition duration is useful for increased Vulnerability duration, again to make the best use of the zerker stats. However just as with an Anchor build in the party, it might be up for argument whether or not this is worth it.

All other stat distributions, yes, they are generally selfish in a competent party, as they don’t help the party. Don’t blame the zerkers, blame Anet for consistently creating content that is catered to zerker stats, as well as gimping other strategies such as condition damage.

Star Ace.5207:

(Basically, for many people “if there’s no tank, why go for defensive stats?” which is not logical to me at all, no offense intended. Lacking a trinity doesn’t mean we must totally ignore defensive stats. Of course there’s nothing wrong with Berserker’s, but there is no inherent “evil” in those who choose to use anything else just because they don’t play “zerk-way”.)

I tried to explain this to you before.

The Idea of someone being selfish for not being DPS, comes from a simple fact that every class can build for glass cannon, and survive any encounter as such if a good amount of effort is put into dodging, self healing and situational awareness. This makes anyone who is wearing a survivability gear (seemingly) fall into the category of; not very good at the game, or lazy and wanting to be carried.

People don’t want to play with either person in those categories. And so you get posts like you were referring to. And while I feel no one should put anyone down over their choice, I also feel you should respect their choice to not play with people that they perceive as bad at the game or lazy.

While I don’t feel this way I get it. You can do everything in this game, Faster, more efficient, and with a higher rate of completion by being full DPS. People that want the cushy padding of more HP or Armor are taking away from their DPS to do so. But since everything can be done without that extra cushion people see it as a waste for noobs.

I tell everyone to not jump in full zerk at 80, Personally I think it’s stupid. But taking your defensive set and slowly replacing piece by piece with more DPS based sets, (a trinket here, a gem there) you will find that not only do you get better at dodging (out of nesessity) but your run become smoother, faster and you become a better player. You don’t need IMHO to be full Zerker but realizing that you want to get to a point where you are dealing as much damage as possible without dying is key. For some of us that is full zerk. For others they may need half knight.

The point is that more DPS > More survivability in this game. Because most of your survivability is based on your ability to not get hit by the 1 shot in the first place.

Leo G.4501:

Late to the debate but…

…the real prognosis for this issue isn’t to shout about how the zerkers namecalling people that don’t go full DPS but to alter the content!

Would it be better to alter the way damage is calculated? The dichotomy between berserker and other specs exists because of near 100% crit chance coupled with 100%+ crit damage. That’s approaching as much as 2.5 times the damage non offensive stat combinations are likely to generate. Glass cannons are not 2.5 times as likely to die as defensive or support builds. The supporters of the berserker mindset tell us that dodge and other mitigations are enough to take no damage. That means that the risk of running all-out damage is quite low.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Leo G.4501:

Late to the debate but…

…the real prognosis for this issue isn’t to shout about how the zerkers namecalling people that don’t go full DPS but to alter the content!

Would it be better to alter the way damage is calculated? The dichotomy between berserker and other specs exists because of near 100% crit chance coupled with 100%+ crit damage. That’s approaching as much as 2.5 times the damage non offensive stat combinations are likely to generate. Glass cannons are not 2.5 times as likely to die as defensive or support builds. The supporters of the berserker mindset tell us that dodge and other mitigations are enough to take no damage. That means that the risk of running all-out damage is quite low.

BINGO

The risk is not only low, but becomes non existent when you get into higher tier content (like 40+ fractals) The 30k Warrior is just as dead as the 12k Ele if they are hit by many of the boss mechanics.

The problem is there is we don’t need to be defensive to beat the content at all. since they got rid of the trinity and everyone is their own tank and healer they cant make it so that you need an effective health of 40k+ to beat an encounter because some classes cant get to that while a warrior can easily. But at the same time it cant be a 20k- Effective health because classes like necro or guardian would lol at that without even trying. They made (perhaps not intentionally) the game revolve around DPS.

Lokki.1092:

The point is that more DPS > More survivability in this game. Because most of your survivability is based on your ability to not get hit by the 1 shot in the first place.

You do realize that after certain point in defensive stats nothing one shots you anymore, don’t you? Nothing even takes 1/2 your HP in one attack. Most lvl 80 champions with few exceptions can be kill by right click, go to the kitchen, make a sandwich, come back, eat it while your toon kills it in autopilot, regenerating more HP than the champ is taking from you (those few exception might require some dodging).

Anyway, don’t assume that everyone has the same computer, internet connection that you have.

For example, I’m from Argentina. My ping is always around 450. 300 if I’m lucky, 750 during pick hours. Have you ever tried to dodge on time not once, but repeatedly with a random amount of lag near one second delay in any action you do? Ok, it’s no fun, trust me. Going defense its not a choice for some players, not everyone can play the game like you do.- Besides, I still disagree that it’s a waste. I find it more useful than you would think. Mobbing ridiculous amounts of mobs its also funny. Charging Leroy Jenkin style in most dungeon and having your party kitten their pants its also fun. It’s a same that almost everyone in this game uses the same trend in stats.

There was a good post on reddit about this … which I rarely ever attribute Reddit for :\

… but the main issue …
which I think has been obvious to everyone for a month or two now…
…is just the complete neglect for PvE by the Balancing team. Practically 0 skill splitting.

Their obsessions with a single mode of Esport Tourney bunker ball that would simply make CTF impossible if the 2 modes should ever meet under the rules of the first…
They’re slowly reaching the point of being a combination of Jane Austin caricatures and Dic_kensian Villains, steeped in pomp and circumstance while spitting upon the wretched PvE urchins at every available opportunity as if they were accruing achievements for it.

Mesket.5728:

You do realize that after certain point in defensive stats nothing one shots you anymore, don’t you? Nothing even takes 1/2 your HP in one attack. Most lvl 80 champions with few exceptions can be kill by right click, go to the kitchen, make a sandwich, come back, eat it while your toon kills it in autopilot, regenerating more HP than the champ is taking from you (those few exception might require some dodging).

Anyway, don’t assume that everyone has the same computer, internet connection that you have.

For example, I’m from Argentina. My ping is always around 450. 300 if I’m lucky, 750 during pick hours. Have you ever tried to dodge on time not once, but repeatedly with a random amount of lag near one second delay in any action you do? Ok, it’s no fun, trust me. Going defense its not a choice for some players, not everyone can play the game like you do.- Besides, I still disagree thakittens a waste.

First of all. Any open world Champion is nowhere near the level of content we are talking about when we say high tier. Aside from that you should read one line above what you quoted.

“You don’t need IMHO to be full Zerker but realizing that you want to get to a point where you are dealing as much damage as possible without dying is key. For some of us that is full zerk. For others they may need half knight.

I agree that not everyone needs to play full Zerker or even can. All I’m getting across is that DPS is the king in this game and the only reason to not go full DPS is because for whatever reason be it physical limitations, technical, or just laziness you cannot survive without it.

colesy.8490:

If you are using gear that buffs your own stats without helping the team (toughness and vitality as examples) then you are being selfish. How hard is that to understand?

Yeah, cause not being glass and going down all the time is so not helping anything. Pretty tired of picking up zerkers off the ground all the time cause they can’t deal with a fart wafting in their direction.

Sleel.8365:

colesy.8490:

If you are using gear that buffs your own stats without helping the team (toughness and vitality as examples) then you are being selfish. How hard is that to understand?

Yeah, cause not being glass and going down all the time is so not helping anything. Pretty tired of picking up zerkers off the ground all the time cause they can’t deal with a fart wafting in their direction.

Wouldn’t be as bad if they could time their dodges well enough. Of course, in open PvE a lot of people don’t bother to pack extra evasion skills, and just autoattack and stop paying attention. (I love using those people for Daily Reviver on the Queensdale troll.)

Non Berserker players disturb anyone who cares about efficiency.
Berserker players don’t disturb players who don’t care about efficiency.

Also, funny about that “free loot bag” point. I’m 99% sure i’d beat anyone bringing it in a 1v1 with myself wearing berserker gear. Because just bad players bring this argument who didn’t understand what this game is about.

Also, lets come back to the stat list and what each stat contributes to a party. Using that, could anyone show me how antly non berserker stat is helping the party in any way?
Vitality, Toughness, Magic Find. 100% selfish stats.

Dub.1273:

Non Berserker players disturb anyone who cares about efficiency.
Berserker players don’t disturb players who don’t care about efficiency.

Also, funny about that “free loot bag” point. I’m 99% sure i’d beat anyone bringing it in a 1v1 with myself wearing berserker gear. Because just bad players bring this argument who didn’t understand what this game is about.

Also, lets come back to the stat list and what each stat contributes to a party. Using that, could anyone show me how antly non berserker stat is helping the party in any way?
Vitality, Toughness, Magic Find. 100% selfish stats.

Given that healing other people isn’t something I can do or have done to me reliably? I’ll stick to trying to take care of myself by not making myself go down easy.

This whole argument is a result of the Cult of Min/Max. It has been the curse of RPG games all the way back to pen and paper.

EgonVenkman.1907:

This whole argument is a result of the Cult of Min/Max. It has been the curse of RPG games all the way back to pen and paper.

Before that, before that. It’s a curse of tabletop wargaming, which existed before RPGs

Sleel.8365:

colesy.8490:

If you are using gear that buffs your own stats without helping the team (toughness and vitality as examples) then you are being selfish. How hard is that to understand?

Yeah, cause not being glass and going down all the time is so not helping anything. Pretty tired of picking up zerkers off the ground all the time cause they can’t deal with a fart wafting in their direction.

This is also pretty common. … I join tougher Dungeons all the time through LFG.com which almost always DOES provide you with more skilled players in general than simply joining mapchat ones in LA on most servers

but here’s the catch…

They’re not Flawless. NO ONE IS. (nor is Colesy). Even though a lot of them are even better than my own Guild Teams (and this is a guild that uses TS & does WvW all day long… they’re great players too) …they still make mistakes. They still get downed from lag or unexpected boss 2-shots or aggro just plain being really random at times. But hey, when they’re already all in melee together, they can all just press “F” at the same time and it’s like nothing ever happened. I’ve stacked on Lupi in Melee, it works. It’s kinda gimmicky, but it does work. …and it probably needs some tweaking by Anet infact … I love melee, but there should be times when you want to swap weapons and back off for a minute….

So…
The only place this doesn’t consistently happen… some people getting downed… is in COF1 (b/c it’s actually EASIER than any of the Story Modes in the entire game), and in Guild Speed Clears by guilds who do nothing but that 1 run until they get the Rote Memory portion down to a science. …THEN they can all run Zerkers & stack in melee and no one ever gets downed if they were atleast half awake. And I think it’s pretty clear as of this particular update, that Anet doesn’t think that kind of clearing …is healthy or worthy of constant rewards.