Guild Wars 2

stof.9341:

Klawlyt.6507:

Oh man. Sometimes I leave WvW and maybe try running a dungeon, Sometimes I think I might even finish my personal story. Then I run into this. Do you know how hard it is to find 4 people willing to accept someone who is very forthright about not already knowing the dungeons in this game? It doesn’t matter that I can play the game well, and throughly understand its mechanics. If you’re going to be asking for pointers on every boss, you’re useless. It’s kind of funny how toxicly competitive the part of the game designed to be the least competitive is. Yeah, I wanna run in my PVT gear, and yeah, I wanna try something new once in a while. So I guess, yeah, by the PvE community’s rigorous standards, I am greedy. Sorry!

And so what? Many MMOs have specific gear for PvP different from the one for PvE anyway. It’s not something new :p

Except it’s not required.

Technically, you can have a group of 3 geared guys take down the majority of the content no sweat so adding 1-2 guys doesn’t suddenly make it impossible.

My mace ’n shield-wielding Guardian with all Power/Vitality/Healing and all survival traits saves groups. What that character lacks in overall damage, I make up for by being able to:

1. Live long enough to rez somebody who died.
2. In some cases, finish off a boss that will have to work harder at killing me.
3. Offer enough support to a group to make them live longer as a whole.

Those three reasons are enough for me, personally to justify not being a ‘zerker build with that toon and to me, exemplifies not being selfish. Of course, I’m not a real big fan of the speed runners either. I like to enjoy content, not blow through it.

colesy.8490:

I don’t mind the MF gear elimination, really. But from there to say that anything that is not Berserker’s is being “selfish”, darn, that’s just intolerance akittens finest.

Toughness – doesn’t contribute to the party, selfish
Vitality – doesn’t contribute to the party, selfish
Healing Power (armour stat) – effect is negligible, waste of a stat
Boon Duration (armour stat) – negligible, useless
Condition Damage – Probably replacing a useful stat, cond damage is weaker than regular damage
Condition Duration – above

Magic Find – anything is better than this, full leech stat
Can’t think of any others. On the other hand:

Power: helps deal more damage to bring enemies down quicker, useful
Precision: increases chance of critical hits, crits do a base of 150% the damage of normal hits so you want crits to help deal damage
Crit damage: Makes your crits stronger, can be infinitely stacked with no worry, becomes very reliable extra damage with precision stacking

MF gear wasn’t “selfish”, it was just another alternative that ANet initially provided

“I will increase my chance of better loot and contribute jack all to the party” seems selfish to me.

OP, stop being a carebear, some stat combinations are better than others.

I use a tank warrior build focusing on toughness, vitality, and healing power.

First thing on your mind I know… selfish baw baw bawwww. Not quite. The way i have my build set up I can last an abnormally long time alive in dungeons and in most PvE areas I overheal any damage unless I’m just being swarmed with conditions or over 10 high level mobs… then my health goes down a bit but I have three skills that can heal me and nearby party members and that regain quickly.

So I’m near invincible.

Okay yeah selfish right? I sacrifice heavy damage for my own life. Well you see in most dungeons I run with others I play heavy tank regardless of lack of trinity. I get enemies on me while the rest of the party nails them down quickly without having to worry about their own kitten being fried, expecially zerkers with very little survivability.

So I do help the party. I help keep the enemies distracted and I even remember a time where the poison from the Spider Queen in AC managed to kill the rest of my party and I solo’d what was left of it’s health by myself to prevent a reset. Did the party get mad? No. Hell I had some people freaking out that I was taking so much crap.

I’ve also done several CoF runs, usually never taking longer than 10-15 mins even with me in the group. My point is… more builds are viable and I feel much more helpful and useful with my current build than I would with a zerker build. Yeah high DPS is good and all but if you can’t survive then it’s not gonna be useful for long.

Except without taunt mechanic it is very likely that enemies also attack other players. If enemies truly focused you then you would die before the team and not vice versa.
For the record, I can easily solo Spider Queen from 100% to 0% with glasscannon Warrior.

Dog.1472:

I really don’t understand OP’s argument.

MF is most definitely selfish. I don’t think I even need to argue that point, nor will I bother since it’s being removed as a stat.

While everything else is viable, it’s without a doubt sub optimal. Conditions are broken in group PvE content, please don’t use it there. Using conditions instead is similar to just saying hey, I want to do a fraction of the damage as anyone else. You are not helping the party at all, I wouldn’t call it selfish, but it is stupid.

Healing power is useless. You are essentially making fights take longer in order to give your healing a negligible boost that doesn’t actually assist anyone. This is a very bad stat that just makes everything slower and more difficult for everyone. The longer a fight lasts, the more damage everyone takes, the more chances people will go down.

Vitality/toughness is definitely useful to players at a lower skill level. I’m not too bothered by people that need a little survivability if you play. Go a little into this if you need to whatever, but gradually throw on some zerker instead and you will perform better, and fights will be faster and easier.

I don’t see how anyone can be against improving and doing a better job. I would say it’s just lazy more than selfish. Choosing to hold everyone down, making things take longer… it’s just the respectful thing to do to play to the best of your ability.

Okay, let me try to explain this from a different point of view.

If your goal is to finish as dungeon and quickly and as easily as possible…then you’re quite correct. But not everyone has that same goal. For some people the goal is to have fun. Not fun by being quick and efficient, but to have fun by playing a character they enjoy. Now if one person in your party cares about how fast the dungeon will be run, you’d be right. But in my guild, where no one cares how fast the dungeon goes because we’re having fun, and we like each other so we WANT each other to have fun, playing a profession we don’t like to make it faster would be more selfish. It would put pressure on people who want to play to have fun to finish faster. Our goal is different.

One day, in the grawl fractal, one of the guys got a fire bubble and started playing tag with it. Chasing around other people who were trying to avoid him. Suddenly, we’re playing tag in the middle of the grawl fractal. Not very efficient, I’ll admit, but funny as hell. We finished the fractal.

Let’s pretend we wipe because someone is goofing off. So we wipe. It’s a couple of silver. No one cares. As long as we’re having fun.

We have one guy who loves to heal and support. We know it’s not most effective, but we don’t care. Because he likes doing it, so we appreciate his help when he provides it. Sure the dungeon takes longer. Why is that a problem?

I’ve been on fast runs of dungeons where no one speaks and I find them boring as hell. Run, run run. Let’s get it done. Let’s get the reward.

Remember, though some people are farming dungeons, many are trying to experience the dungeon more or less as their own character.

If you take many “speed” groups in zerker gear, wiping every five minutes because they just prefer to toss bodies at the enemies till they die instead of using actual strategy, the cost of repairs could add up. In some instances people in zerker gear can be concidered selfish too. It all comes down to how effective you are doing what you do.

Some dungeon runs I’ve been in have gone very fast by having a few members in survival gear pulling groups of mobs without a wipe or catch up time at all. I haven’t noticed a real difference in how fast a dungeon is cleared by the gear being worn. I’ve done normal and speed runs. Most times, for me at least what makes dungeon runs take longer depends on the class composition you have going.

Zerker gear is nice, I use it myself on a few characters (plus my mesmer since rampage felt lackluster). I just don’t think it’s the end all for every person or group. It really doesn’t cripple a speed run if a few people don’t have it. If people know how to play their class well enough, they can adapt without requiring someone else to make a dramatic change.

After all, speed run content isn’t that hard anyway or else people wouldn’t be speed running it. If you’re in a good group it goes fast. If you’re in a bad group, it doesn’t. Plus if you can survive, you can tank more mobs at once. If you die in one hit that’s walking time you add. I think it’s pretty even either way, unless you have extremely skilled people in zerker gear that never die or get downed. Then by all means stay that way.

OMG, barely a day and you got 6 pages, way to go OP! :o

I’ll read through this in a bit but I’ll let it be known I’m firmly in the non-zerker group. to keep it simple, its about mistakes, making them and surviving them. I’m not too fond of severely punishing myself. I want to not dread trial and errors so much. Zerkers also thrive (in the contents that favor dps especially) with other zerkers, because the longer a fight goes the more chances they can get downed. (faster kill less chance for boss to kill u eh? or so thats the thought) so I really find that boring. i prefer a group/party of different builds and professions. I’m also a non-famer. I want to earn things without worrying or finding out the most min-max freakish optimal way but to also have fun doing things.

Fate.5961:

I’m very impressed by the OP’s sleight of hand here. I very much agree that other stat combinations besides one offered by zerk gear is viable and agree that it’s overboard to call other combinations selfish unless that group specifically asked for it or it’s agreed upon before the run.

However, the real topic and defense is MF gear. I strongly disagree that MF gear is not at all selfish. MF gear is selfish in nature because it contributes absolutely nothing to the group and removes huge chunk of stats that actually affect a dungeon run (from my understanding, MF takes the primary stat slot). By definition, MF gear is selfish. Which is fine, actually.

It’s true that Anet did put MF into the game and players have the right to use them. However, let’s not bother with the rationalizing and taking the high ground on using MF gear. If you’re using MF gear, then just be honest about it. Man up and admit that you’re bringing less to the group in pure terms of mathematics. Skill is relative, but I’m not convinced that a highly skilled player would defend MF gear in any way except in that it gives sole benefit to the user in terms of loot. Now can you still perform well enough with MF gear if you’re skilled? Of course. But assuming all things are fair, your output in terms of contribution will be less.

If someone in the party is using MF gear, the other members of that party now have to do more than their fair share of the work. That’s all fine with a group that all wears MF group, or if you’re casually playing with a group of friends who are in this together. But to join a random group and expect to be carried through by non-MF users absolutely is selfish. Only way to get around that is by simply being honest from the get-go and to admit that you’re going to be using MF gear.

I would be completely fine with that. If not, then I would be the one to leave as you did your part and I can now make an informed decision.

No sleight of hand intended, I Just know from experience that there are wonderful people with MF gear who don’t deserve to be called selfish just because you disagree with their gear choice. Many of these players who call others “selfish” couldn’t care less about moral issues (I do, actually, which is why I find offense with name-calling people you know nothing about.) They just felt inconvenienced by statistically inferior gear-equipped players on their groups, but the problem is that (as seen on this and other threads) they still apply the same logic to any other gear that isn’t meta/what they use-and I knew that was going to happen, and even mentioned it many times on the anti-MF gear threads.

I do not support selfishness, but I do believe people should just play with whatever gear suits their playstyle. This may or not agree with the “meta”, and we should find no problem with that, nor call them “selfish”.

I never liked MF gear myself, but never judged anyone for using it, because simply put, ANet sanctioned it by putting it in the game (for better or worse.) But I never enjoyed using it-the drops were (currently are) better, but my gaming experience suffers.

People seem to have a misconception of what others mean when they say optimal Zerker build/gear. Just want to clear this up.

If someone is dying constantly then they are not in any way what we mean by an optimized berserker character. The entire point of going full on DPS is that your defenses as a character are not tied to your stats as much (if at all) once you know encounters, and get good at dodging and situational awareness.

In other words a character that has the same survivability as someone in full survivability gear, but wearing all DPS gear.

This is why many people in this thread myself included have said it’s not about wearing full zerker its about knowing that DPS>survivability And to get your character at a point where you are doing as much DPS as possible while able to live.

Molch.2078:

Enewia.1356:

Molch.2078:

Okay, sorry, I thought this topic was more pve related.

Oh poor boy you didn’t understand what he said. Tsk tsk

Not sure if insult or …

Nah nah not insult just trying to make you notice that you misunderstood

Vayne.8563:

Okay, let me try to explain this from a different point of view.
[snip]

You said that really well. It’s something I’ve been thinking throughout the thread. To be clear, I don’t disagree with those who are saying that going full berserker is the most efficient way to deal with the dungeon content. But those who go on to say it’s the ‘best’ way, or that any other way is selfish, are predicating their argument on the assumption that speed and efficiency are the goals, which may or may not be true, depending on the group. I think there’s a degree of comparing apples to oranges going in the thread, where we’re really talking about different scenarios.

If I might go off on a little tangent…the whole thing makes me kind of sad, and I think it’s largely the reason I’ve come to dislike dungeons. Don’t even get me started on Defiance. I love playing control, and I just can’t believe that bosses are designed to entirely negate what, IMO, should be a perfectly valid style of character building and team support. And condition damage in PvE…well…enough’s been said about that in other threads. We end up with a situation where a high damage, high efficiency team can blow through the content so fast that, for me, there really wasn’t any point to doing it at all; it’s not like I experienced any of it. Or we end up stalling at the bosses because we don’t have the damage to kill them fast enough and are not quick enough to dodge all the attacks (I count myself in that category), or using some well known gimmick to kill them, which to me is dreadfully dull. I get that the game is only a year old, and I very much enjoy many things about it, but I really do hope we see more focus in future development on PvE combat; I would love to see more complexity and encouragement of variety in character building and team synergy, but perhaps the combat and skill systems are just too simple for that.

Remember kids, you can’t do any dps when you’re dead. I don’t use “zerker” gear on any of my characters nor do I plan to. With that said in any game I’ve played I avoid speed clears like the plague, I prefer to go slowly through dungeons and enjoy the content.

tl:dr Who cares what other people think, just have fun.

Vayne.8563:

Okay, let me try to explain this from a different point of view.

If your goal is to finish as dungeon and quickly and as easily as possible…then you’re quite correct. But not everyone has that same goal. For some people the goal is to have fun. Not fun by being quick and efficient, but to have fun by playing a character they enjoy. Now if one person in your party cares about how fast the dungeon will be run, you’d be right. But in my guild, where no one cares how fast the dungeon goes because we’re having fun, and we like each other so we WANT each other to have fun, playing a profession we don’t like to make it faster would be more selfish. It would put pressure on people who want to play to have fun to finish faster. Our goal is different.

One day, in the grawl fractal, one of the guys got a fire bubble and started playing tag with it. Chasing around other people who were trying to avoid him. Suddenly, we’re playing tag in the middle of the grawl fractal. Not very efficient, I’ll admit, but funny as hell. We finished the fractal.

Let’s pretend we wipe because someone is goofing off. So we wipe. It’s a couple of silver. No one cares. As long as we’re having fun.

We have one guy who loves to heal and support. We know it’s not most effective, but we don’t care. Because he likes doing it, so we appreciate his help when he provides it. Sure the dungeon takes longer. Why is that a problem?

I’ve been on fast runs of dungeons where no one speaks and I find them boring as hell. Run, run run. Let’s get it done. Let’s get the reward.

Remember, though some people are farming dungeons, many are trying to experience the dungeon more or less as their own character.

It is fair enough, though I doubt anyone is complaining about people’s own private groups. People do have different goals, but when you’re playing with strangers, you’re going to have to compromise or it will be impossible to get along. If one is not willing to do that, then they really need to make friends I guess.

Personally, aside from MF gear I don’t care enough what people wear and in reality I’ve never booted anyone for wearing the “wrong gear”. But I know to not throw rocks from a glass house. My guardian uses knight’s armor (what a noob! But my trinkets are zerker!), but I do zerk on my necro (omg nub playing necro in pve). In any case, I actually do not care enough about improving on dungeon running; if I did want to train on something it would be wvw or pvp. But I admit my skill isn’t that high. If someone wants to boot me because of that, then such is life.

Still even in the context of a game as entertainment, there is still some discussion for some degree of objectivity in how the game works. 1. f3 is Chess is most likely a bad move, regardless of what anyone else says, and thus analysis of gameplay should revolve around these assumptions. This doesn’t mean you should be arrested or banned for doing that, of course. I just think that when people are criticized and go “It’s just your opinion! It just works for you!” aren’t making much of a point besides that they have none.

However, my joke earlier in the thread making fun of people that feel that they can dodge mostly everything is that they suffer from some degree of tunnel vision. That is, yes, the best players in the world can run zerker anywhere and survive. (I’ve seen a video of someone doing it in wvw soloing, ffs), however I think that people often overestimate their own skill; in some cases they are just as bad as the people they bash.

That of course, still doesn’t change matters. But it does require some perspective.

tl;dr Some players just aren’t good enough to use zerker. They’re not terrible and selfish people. They’re just not good enough to use it.

Klawlyt.6507:

Oh man. Sometimes I leave WvW and maybe try running a dungeon, Sometimes I think I might even finish my personal story. Then I run into this. Do you know how hard it is to find 4 people willing to accept someone who is very forthright about not already knowing the dungeons in this game? It doesn’t matter that I can play the game well, and throughly understand its mechanics. If you’re going to be asking for pointers on every boss, you’re useless. It’s kind of funny how toxicly competitive the part of the game designed to be the least competitive is. Yeah, I wanna run in my PVT gear, and yeah, I wanna try something new once in a while. So I guess, yeah, by the PvE community’s rigorous standards, I am greedy. Sorry!

I do know how hard it is.

It isn’t hard at all. I constnatly see people clueless about dungeons getting into PUGs, 99% of the PUGs I am in are with inexperienced players and almost none of the ones I am in involve Zerkers.

It sounds to me that you’re complaining more about hypotheticals than actual experiences, or you’re just absurdly unlucky. Ask your guild, ask the maps, ask the people milling around the dungeons. There’s even plenty of lfgs on that one lfg site that you can get into with Zerks or prior knowledge.

Put up your own lfg. You’ll get hits in no time, even if you put that you’re inexperienced.

I do dungeons constantly, I simply and adamantly do not believe this is a problem.

What I think is funny is a lot of times zerkers think they are better at the game than they actually are.

That said I suppose it’s all down to what experience you’re trying to get. I don’t enjoy speed running. I don’t do dungeons for the money. I do it for the pleasure of solving a problem. That’s what I liked about raiding too, the feeling of beating a puzzle. I go with what makes sense for the dungeon. There have been a couple of times where it was obvious from the jump that the team couldn’t bring enough dps for the encounter, but that’s been only two groups I could say that about.

There are definitely times where you can feel the lack of DPS is making an encounter absolutely crawl beyond all reason.

When I used to dungeon more often than I have been lately, I used to try and at least get people to synergize a little. Or at least be like “Okay, who’s specced for Damage? Just one of us? Would anybody mind speccing for Damage, too?”

This is the experience I have with my support main but then people fall all over themselves to say I’m only having to rez people at all because I am not putting out max deeps and if I was the fight would be over anyway QQ

tasaunders.3746:

My mace ’n shield-wielding Guardian with all Power/Vitality/Healing and all survival traits saves groups. What that character lacks in overall damage, I make up for by being able to:

1. Live long enough to rez somebody who died.
2. In some cases, finish off a boss that will have to work harder at killing me.
3. Offer enough support to a group to make them live longer as a whole.

Those three reasons are enough for me, personally to justify not being a ‘zerker build with that toon and to me, exemplifies not being selfish. Of course, I’m not a real big fan of the speed runners either. I like to enjoy content, not blow through it.

crystal.5930:

Vayne.8563:

Okay, let me try to explain this from a different point of view.
[snip]

You said that really well. It’s something I’ve been thinking throughout the thread. To be clear, I don’t disagree with those who are saying that going full berserker is the most efficient way to deal with the dungeon content. But those who go on to say it’s the ‘best’ way, or that any other way is selfish, are predicating their argument on the assumption that speed and efficiency are the goals, which may or may not be true, depending on the group. I think there’s a degree of comparing apples to oranges going in the thread, where we’re really talking about different scenarios.

If I might go off on a little tangent…the whole thing makes me kind of sad, and I think it’s largely the reason I’ve come to dislike dungeons. Don’t even get me started on Defiance. I love playing control, and I just can’t believe that bosses are designed to entirely negate what, IMO, should be a perfectly valid style of character building and team support. And condition damage in PvE…well…enough’s been said about that in other threads. We end up with a situation where a high damage, high efficiency team can blow through the content so fast that, for me, there really wasn’t any point to doing it at all; it’s not like I experienced any of it. Or we end up stalling at the bosses because we don’t have the damage to kill them fast enough and are not quick enough to dodge all the attacks (I count myself in that category), or using some well known gimmick to kill them, which to me is dreadfully dull. I get that the game is only a year old, and I very much enjoy many things about it, but I really do hope we see more focus in future development on PvE combat; I would love to see more complexity and encouragement of variety in character building and team synergy, but perhaps the combat and skill systems are just too simple for that.

You need to run some dungeons with my guild. We’re not pretty…but we get the job done…most of the time anyway. And even when we don’t, we usually have a good laugh about it.

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

What I think is funny is a lot of times zerkers think they are better at the game than they actually are.

That said I suppose it’s all down to what experience you’re trying to get. I don’t enjoy speed running. I don’t do dungeons for the money. I do it for the pleasure of solving a problem. That’s what I liked about raiding too, the feeling of beating a puzzle. I go with what makes sense for the dungeon. There have been a couple of times where it was obvious from the jump that the team couldn’t bring enough dps for the encounter, but that’s been only two groups I could say that about.

The only puzzle you have to solve in gw2 dungeons is how to burst down a boss quickly enough without dying.

To do that, run full glass, dodge lethal attacks, and when unable to dodge or if it’s unnecessary, some form of damage mitigation either via blocks, invuln, reflects or protection.

And for the record, doing dungeons for fun only lasts so long, when you’re spamming the COF entrance for two hours straight you only care about efficiency.

colesy.8490:

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

What I think is funny is a lot of times zerkers think they are better at the game than they actually are.

That said I suppose it’s all down to what experience you’re trying to get. I don’t enjoy speed running. I don’t do dungeons for the money. I do it for the pleasure of solving a problem. That’s what I liked about raiding too, the feeling of beating a puzzle. I go with what makes sense for the dungeon. There have been a couple of times where it was obvious from the jump that the team couldn’t bring enough dps for the encounter, but that’s been only two groups I could say that about.

The only puzzle you have to solve in gw2 dungeons is how to burst down a boss quickly enough without dying.

To do that, run full glass, dodge lethal attacks, and when unable to dodge or if it’s unnecessary, some form of damage mitigation either via blocks, invuln, reflects or protection.

And for the record, doing dungeons for fun only lasts so long, when you’re spamming the COF entrance for two hours straight you only care about efficiency.

Actually if you’re in a guild and doing them for fun, you don’t spam the CoF entrance at all. Someone in mumble or in guild chat says anyone feel like a dungeon and most of the time, a group is formed in a few minutes, often with people you’re already friendly with, or have at least played with.

Many people in my guild are playing since launch and we all still run dungeons for fun.

I respectfully disagree. Some bosses need some help, yes, because right now they aren’t always as challenging as they could be from an innovation stand point, but they do have mechanics and there are different ways to respond to those mechanics.

I am still doing dungeons for fun. Like I said I am not in it to speed run. That is a mentality that holds absolutely no interest for me. That doesn’t mean I want to hang out in a dungeon forever because the group just sucks and doesn’t care, but I am not blowing through content over and over just to get money.

colesy.8490:

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

What I think is funny is a lot of times zerkers think they are better at the game than they actually are.

That said I suppose it’s all down to what experience you’re trying to get. I don’t enjoy speed running. I don’t do dungeons for the money. I do it for the pleasure of solving a problem. That’s what I liked about raiding too, the feeling of beating a puzzle. I go with what makes sense for the dungeon. There have been a couple of times where it was obvious from the jump that the team couldn’t bring enough dps for the encounter, but that’s been only two groups I could say that about.

The only puzzle you have to solve in gw2 dungeons is how to burst down a boss quickly enough without dying.

To do that, run full glass, dodge lethal attacks, and when unable to dodge or if it’s unnecessary, some form of damage mitigation either via blocks, invuln, reflects or protection.

And for the record, doing dungeons for fun only lasts so long, when you’re spamming the COF entrance for two hours straight you only care about efficiency.

Actually if you’re in a guild and doing them for fun, you don’t spam the CoF entrance at all. Someone in mumble or in guild chat says anyone feel like a dungeon and most of the time, a group is formed in a few minutes, often with people you’re already friendly with, or have at least played with.

Many people in my guild are playing since launch and we all still run dungeons for fun.

I was grinding cof p1 for my legendary so I couldn’t take random groups and run it for fun. Once I have my legendary, sure I’ll do the occasional dungeon run for fun because then I don’t “have” to grind.

I respectfully disagree. Some bosses need some help, yes, because right now they aren’t always as challenging as they could be from an innovation stand point, but they do have mechanics and there are different ways to respond to those mechanics.

Mechanics such as projectiles which you drop feedback on and then insta-kill the boss cough lupicus cough. Apart from thakittens hurrrr dps, dodge every now and then.

I mean, that’s the other thing. I am making a legendary but not truly grinding for it. I don’t need to grind for it. It’s not a mentality I adhere to. Frankly the way some of the posts on this forum sound, it just makes me think games have become joyless for a lot of players. It’s all this negative hate fest about grinding and gearing and getting the absolute most out of every single second played in some kind of tangible way. I mean fine, I guess, but that’s just not me.

I guess I am somewhere between casual and hardcore. I don’t want to just kitten around and wipe a million times and laugh about it because hrr rpz guildz or whatever, but I’m not going to turn it in to a job or an exercise in entitlement either.

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

I mean, that’s the other thing. I am making a legendary but not truly grinding for it. I don’t need to grind for it. It’s not a mentality I adhere to. Frankly the way some of the posts on this forum sound, it just makes me think games have become joyless for a lot of players. It’s all this negative hate fest about grinding and gearing and getting the absolute most out of every single second played in some kind of tangible way. I mean fine, I guess, but that’s just not me.

I guess I am somewhere between casual and hardcore. I don’t want to just kitten around and wipe a million times and laugh about it because hrr rpz guildz or whatever, but I’m not going to turn it in to a job or an exercise in entitlement either.

I’m causal by temperment, but hard core for the amount of hours I play, and how into it I get. Just not the efficiency aspect. I’ll get what I get when I get it. I took me a good long time to get dungeon master. It took me six months to get a lengedary and I was lucky enough to get a precusor drop.

But mostly I just roam around with guildies, help people with stuff they need to get done, hang out and do whatever I think is fun at the time.

Yes, this exactly! Thanks to this attitude I am still very happy with the game.

I’m causal by temperment, but hard core for the amount of hours I play, and how into it I get. Just not the efficiency aspect. I’ll get what I get when I get it. I took me a good long time to get dungeon master. It took me six months to get a lengedary and I was lucky enough to get a precusor drop.

But mostly I just roam around with guildies, help people with stuff they need to get done, hang out and do whatever I think is fun at the time.

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

Yes, this exactly! Thanks to this attitude I am still very happy with the game.

I’m causal by temperment, but hard core for the amount of hours I play, and how into it I get. Just not the efficiency aspect. I’ll get what I get when I get it. I took me a good long time to get dungeon master. It took me six months to get a lengedary and I was lucky enough to get a precusor drop.

But mostly I just roam around with guildies, help people with stuff they need to get done, hang out and do whatever I think is fun at the time.

I think there are a lot more of us out there than most people think.

Because we don’t speak up much, I would guess. I’m trying to participate on the forums so there’s at least one voice saying no really Anet, please don’t make this a ridiculous grind treadmill grief fest.

Vayne.8563:

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

Yes, this exactly! Thanks to this attitude I am still very happy with the game.

I’m causal by temperment, but hard core for the amount of hours I play, and how into it I get. Just not the efficiency aspect. I’ll get what I get when I get it. I took me a good long time to get dungeon master. It took me six months to get a lengedary and I was lucky enough to get a precusor drop.

But mostly I just roam around with guildies, help people with stuff they need to get done, hang out and do whatever I think is fun at the time.

I think there are a lot more of us out there than most people think.

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

Because we don’t speak up much, I would guess. I’m trying to participate on the forums so there’s at least one voice saying no really Anet, please don’t make this a ridiculous grind treadmill grief fest.

Vayne.8563:

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

Yes, this exactly! Thanks to this attitude I am still very happy with the game.

I’m causal by temperment, but hard core for the amount of hours I play, and how into it I get. Just not the efficiency aspect. I’ll get what I get when I get it. I took me a good long time to get dungeon master. It took me six months to get a lengedary and I was lucky enough to get a precusor drop.

But mostly I just roam around with guildies, help people with stuff they need to get done, hang out and do whatever I think is fun at the time.

I think there are a lot more of us out there than most people think.

Yep, pretty much what I’m trying to do here. Stand up for the hard-core casuals. lol

I actually enjoy this game TONS more when I’m not on the forums. When I read the forums, people bring up things that make me frown.

I enjoy reading the forums

That said, you can use the forums as an extension of the game too. Like, people describe a mentality between casual and hardcore, not being grindy but likes to challenge content. I’m pretty much the same way. I have my characters with berserker gear that I like to melt content fast and work to stay alive (my warriors and ele) but then I have characters I build totally different for a more balanced playstyle (my mesmer and ranger) that I have fun with by playing the game in alternative ways. I’d probably fit in with those people that described themselves as doing dungeons for fun, so maybe I should write down their handle and group up with them in-game.

Btw, if you’re a casual dungeon runner, put me in your friend’s lists if you’re NA!

My only comment for the whole thread is on the math failure for the “Zerker is everything” crowd.

The difference between the optimized group for a run, and one that’s not, assuming everyone knows the general run, is something like 2-5 minutes, total. The only time this matters is if you’re relentlessly bashing through the same dungeon for hours on end.

Seriously – it’s not a problem. If you’re the type who wants to spend their entire life doing one same thing as quickly as possible – do it with your own type – leave everyone else alone.

If playing as an min-max cog in the greater group machine, where you’re interchangable with the next 2500 people on lfg isn’t your style? Don’t do it – don’t join the groups – and you KNOW they’ll let you know they’re min-maxers.

Essentially, anyone asking for a gear check isn’t worth your time – unless you’re into that kind of thing.

Kirschwasser.3972:

I actually enjoy this game TONS more when I’m not on the forums. When I read the forums, people bring up things that make me frown.

Lol, I come to the forums to vent about broken (or stupid) things that I’m pretty sure Anet is never going to bother fixing – then it’s a few deep breaths, and onto the next thing.

I know that the forums are a microcosm, made up (generally speaking) of people who; are extremely hardcore into the min-max mindset; people who have consistent issues with bugs; people who have questions not covered by the wiki; trolls.

Also remember, people genuinely enjoying the game aren’t on the forums – at least not regularly. They’re playing instead of talking about the “optimal” armor, or how to shave .00045 seconds of their total dungeon times.

stale.9785:

Kirschwasser.3972:

I actually enjoy this game TONS more when I’m not on the forums. When I read the forums, people bring up things that make me frown.

Lol, I come to the forums to vent about broken (or stupid) things that I’m pretty sure Anet is never going to bother fixing – then it’s a few deep breaths, and onto the next thing.

I know that the forums are a microcosm, made up (generally speaking) of people who; are extremely hardcore into the min-max mindset; people who have consistent issues with bugs; people who have questions not covered by the wiki; trolls.

Also remember, people genuinely enjoying the game aren’t on the forums – at least not regularly. They’re playing instead of talking about the “optimal” armor, or how to shave .00045 seconds of their total dungeon times.

That’s a pretty questionable summary of the forums…

I’m neither of the above, I enjoy GW2 and I still regularly visit the forums. I enjoy reading topics about the game I enjoy just as much as the game itself. I hardly ever post something, though.

I really wish they could segregate players who want to play “their way” so I don’t have to wipe with them in easy dungeons.

This whole thread can be summed up as such:

“Don’t judge me. :C”
“Hahahaha, you’re noob, get on my level, wear zerker or GTFO”
“Okay, I can get the anger about MF, but come on, anything but zerker is selfish? PVT is fine, I’m more durable then a berserker and contribute far better then a MF user…”
“No you dumb kitten, berserker is superior in every way. If everyone wore it, we’d all be optimal in PVE!”

Sensitive people being judged by said berserkers: Many people are trogs in any kind of online environment. Not everyone is like that.

As has been pointed out, your one bad experience isn’t the standard. Many people are quite happy to take you if you’re competent enough and not using MF.

Some don’t even care if you do use MF.

I’m skeptical of anyone who says they face ongoing elitism on a daily basis. As a ranger, I’ve run into far more inclusive groups then I have exclusive ones.

Elitist beserker min/maxers: Keep begging Anet to nerf your spec in order to bring the other specs up to par. You’re doing a great job so far!

Cool non-elitist beserker min/maxers (Blood Red Arachnid and similar): I hope you don’t get that nerf your more vocal side is asking for.

Sorry some of your peers are complete tools. Very pr0… troll feeders.

Astucious.4973:

stale.9785:

Kirschwasser.3972:

I actually enjoy this game TONS more when I’m not on the forums. When I read the forums, people bring up things that make me frown.

Lol, I come to the forums to vent about broken (or stupid) things that I’m pretty sure Anet is never going to bother fixing – then it’s a few deep breaths, and onto the next thing.

I know that the forums are a microcosm, made up (generally speaking) of people who; are extremely hardcore into the min-max mindset; people who have consistent issues with bugs; people who have questions not covered by the wiki; trolls.

Also remember, people genuinely enjoying the game aren’t on the forums – at least not regularly. They’re playing instead of talking about the “optimal” armor, or how to shave .00045 seconds of their total dungeon times.

That’s a pretty questionable summary of the forums…

I’m neither of the above, I enjoy GW2 and I still regularly visit the forums. I enjoy reading topics about the game I enjoy just as much as the game itself. I hardly ever post something, though.

It’s a fairly accurate statement, though I find I’m a lot like you myself. Generalities and such.

I really wish they could segregate players who want to play “their way” so I don’t have to wipe with them in easy dungeons.

They do. It’s called making zerk only lfgs and only taking part in zerk groups.

The difference between the optimized group for a run, and one that’s not, assuming everyone knows the general run, is something like 2-5 minutes, total.

Arah p4? COE all paths?

Doesn’t matter how good you are at COE, if your DPS is bad you’re going to be sitting there wailing at the HP sponge bosses longer than zerkers will.

stale.9785:

My only comment for the whole thread is on the math failure for the “Zerker is everything” crowd.

The difference between the optimized group for a run, and one that’s not, assuming everyone knows the general run, is something like 2-5 minutes, total. The only time this matters is if you’re relentlessly bashing through the same dungeon for hours on end.

You can’t possibly put an exact time variance for a group run that’s using berserker and one that’s not. There are too many variables and possible outcomes to have such a narrow time frame.

The simple matter is… even if the run only takes “5 more minutes” that’s not the point. The point is your chance of wiping has greatly increased because the fights simply last longer. When all things are equal, yeah the times maybe aren’t that different… but your potential to not finish a run due to badness grows by a lot.

Star Ace.5207:

Berserker’s gear is a fine way to play-and so is everything else in the game.

brb rolling traveler’s gear on my guard

Vayne.8563:

You need to run some dungeons with my guild. We’re not pretty…but we get the job done…most of the time anyway. And even when we don’t, we usually have a good laugh about it.

Oh, I’ve done dungeons in which I’ve enjoyed the company, Vayne. But that doesn’t save me from finding the game mechanics irksome. And I appreciate your kind offer.

Kirschwasser.3972:

I actually enjoy this game TONS more when I’m not on the forums. When I read the forums, people bring up things that make me frown.

Heh. Yeah, reading the forums can get me pretty down on the game. But then when I actually get in game I forget all about it.

pdpgriever.5680:

That is what happens when you get involved with min/max orientated people. They stop seeing a game and look just at their goals.

or maybe they like being efficient. who knows right? you certainly haven’t considered it.

Milennin.4825:

Anything that goes into downed state is selfish, too. Unfortunately, it’s most often the players in Berserker gear who do go down the most…

aggro tends to concentrate on berserker players in pvt teams because they are the only ones dealing damage, this does not happen in full zerk teams though. also I’ll take someone downing every once in a while over you autoattacking at range with pvt gear

So I’m running around the Queen’s Pavillion with the zerg last night. I play a staff ele specced for defense, mainly healing. Another staff ele is playing near me; we’re killing the destroyer boss. Occasionally he’ll say “Healing on me!” People immediately group on him, he hits water, drops his healing fields and pops them. A bunch of players say thank you.

This happens a bunch of times through the night. He’s working midline, while I tend to work frontline. Players are just soaking up the Water Blast’s; it’s clear that our healing is beneficial and appreciated. It’s times like this that make it so satisfying to play support.

When I took my tanky warrior through the same content, I was thankful for my defenses. They kept me alive so I could revive all of my zerker friends who kept getting 1-shot. It’s so much fun when we all work together.

Now can we stop arguing about this nonsense?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Sleel.8365:

colesy.8490:

If you are using gear that buffs your own stats without helping the team (toughness and vitality as examples) then you are being selfish. How hard is that to understand?

Yeah, cause not being glass and going down all the time is so not helping anything. Pretty tired of picking up zerkers off the ground all the time cause they can’t deal with a fart wafting in their direction.

Wouldn’t be as bad if they could time their dodges well enough. Of course, in open PvE a lot of people don’t bother to pack extra evasion skills, and just autoattack and stop paying attention. (I love using those people for Daily Reviver on the Queensdale troll.)

Yeah. I watch for those players. Easy to spot. I don’t rez them. Even when the fight is over.

colesy.8490:

Sleel.8365:

colesy.8490:

If you are using gear that buffs your own stats without helping the team (toughness and vitality as examples) then you are being selfish. How hard is that to understand?

Yeah, cause not being glass and going down all the time is so not helping anything. Pretty tired of picking up zerkers off the ground all the time cause they can’t deal with a fart wafting in their direction.

Two things to point out :

1. It’s actually quite easy to survive full glass, you’re overestimating how much an effect no toughness/vit has.

2. Zerkers will normally drop when they go in to unoptimised groups. It’s what happens when I try to melee a boss in a pug and everyone’s decided to camp at range.

It’sactually quite funny how often I’ve been the last one alive in a group even when they’re running “tank” gear, and simply by dodging I was able to sit there with a full health bar the whole time doing just fine.

Not by how often I pick their dead kitten up of the ground, I’m not overestimating anything.

Sleel.8365:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Sleel.8365:

colesy.8490:

If you are using gear that buffs your own stats without helping the team (toughness and vitality as examples) then you are being selfish. How hard is that to understand?

Yeah, cause not being glass and going down all the time is so not helping anything. Pretty tired of picking up zerkers off the ground all the time cause they can’t deal with a fart wafting in their direction.

Wouldn’t be as bad if they could time their dodges well enough. Of course, in open PvE a lot of people don’t bother to pack extra evasion skills, and just autoattack and stop paying attention. (I love using those people for Daily Reviver on the Queensdale troll.)

Yeah. I watch for those players. Easy to spot. I don’t rez them. Even when the fight is over.

I am sure all of these players must cry themselves to sleep because you didn’t revive them.

Sleel.8365:

colesy.8490:

Sleel.8365:

colesy.8490:

If you are using gear that buffs your own stats without helping the team (toughness and vitality as examples) then you are being selfish. How hard is that to understand?

Yeah, cause not being glass and going down all the time is so not helping anything. Pretty tired of picking up zerkers off the ground all the time cause they can’t deal with a fart wafting in their direction.

Two things to point out :

1. It’s actually quite easy to survive full glass, you’re overestimating how much an effect no toughness/vit has.

2. Zerkers will normally drop when they go in to unoptimised groups. It’s what happens when I try to melee a boss in a pug and everyone’s decided to camp at range.

It’sactually quite funny how often I’ve been the last one alive in a group even when they’re running “tank” gear, and simply by dodging I was able to sit there with a full health bar the whole time doing just fine.

Not by how often I pick their dead kitten up of the ground, I’m not overestimating anything.

There are actually bad players you know.

And running zerker in an unoptimised group is more difficult because you’re being forced to keep yourself alive due to shoddy group DPS which increases your chance for error the longer a fight goes on for.

So, this thread has taught me a lot … about how there are snobs on both sides of the argument.

Yes, yes, don’t we all hate the “zerker elitits” who insist you’re no good at the game if you don’t run zerk – “Oh you don’t run zerk? you’re just a bad player”.

But, on the other side of the fence, you have just as many other people screaming “Oh you run zerker builds? Well you automatically have nothing to say worth listening to!”

It’s ridiculous. Just as in any group there will always be the ones who take it to extreme and give the rest a bad name. There are just as many great people who run zerk as there are who don’t, and vice versa.

Ok, so phrasing doesn’t help – people tend to get quite touchy about this subject and come across as overly aggressive/defensive (whichever side they’re on) and this is a shame because it colours anything they have to say, no matter how reasonable, and people automatically see red. It’s like waving a red flag at the proverbial bull.

I disagree that to run anything other than zerk dictates your skill as a player. Just as I disagree that running full zerk dictates your skill as a player. There are very, very good and horrendously bad on both sides of the fence. It’s really not as black and white as this thread has made it seem.

If people could maybe take a little more time when posting just to think about the message they’re really putting across, we might see a useful and interesting discussion evolve. We don’t have to disagree, but we don’t have to call each other names either. That’s what the school yard is for.

Mickey.4207:

Sleel.8365:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Sleel.8365:

colesy.8490:

If you are using gear that buffs your own stats without helping the team (toughness and vitality as examples) then you are being selfish. How hard is that to understand?

Yeah, cause not being glass and going down all the time is so not helping anything. Pretty tired of picking up zerkers off the ground all the time cause they can’t deal with a fart wafting in their direction.

Wouldn’t be as bad if they could time their dodges well enough. Of course, in open PvE a lot of people don’t bother to pack extra evasion skills, and just autoattack and stop paying attention. (I love using those people for Daily Reviver on the Queensdale troll.)

Yeah. I watch for those players. Easy to spot. I don’t rez them. Even when the fight is over.

I am sure all of these players must cry themselves to sleep because you didn’t revive them.

Considering the QQing you hear from them in chat when no one rezes them before the chest disappears…. yup

AntiGw.9367:

Yaki.9563:

The difference between MF gear and sub-optimal non-zerker gear is intent:

A person wearing MF intends to screw over the party so that they can gain gold.

A person wearing sub-optimal gear is just trying to have fun playing their build, or maybe just haven’t gotten the gear yet.

The first is intolerable. The second I can deal with.

This is an RPG game. It’s perfectly fine to make a treasure hunter character.

You telling other people what is fine and what isn’t, on the other hand…

I’m RPing a pro-group, anti-selfish, anti-scumbag character.