Guild Wars 2

Leo G.4501:

Caramel Ham.4891:

Reasonable is completely measurable. Lets just take for example cof path 1 since everyone knows that one. A good grp (not 100% zerker) can complete that in about 7 mins. That means you take that as your base measure against the run you are currently doing, thus have created a measurement. So a cof run path 1 that takes 8-10 mins is something I would call reasonable.

You see, I see a short path like CoF1 to be decently straight forward. If it runs 15min, that is perfectly reasonable to me. That’s about one cup of coffee. Perfectly reasonable, IMO. Why wouldn’t 15min be reasonable? And if I’m just killing time while I wait for guildies to log on, why wouldn’t 20min be reasonable?

As for me not knowing the encounters….lol.

Didn’t say you, but trying to tell me that players who gear in zerker gear die because everyone else is just slow is wrong.

How do you think soloers solo dungeon paths? Those fights often get waaaay way longer than if a balanced group of 5 did the same fight. If 1 guy wearing zerker gear can fight a boss for 6-10min and still win, why shouldn’t the same character in a group of 5 be able to survive a 2.5-3min fight?

As for everything else, you should have just said that as it sums up everything you need to say: “You don’t care.”

And you’re not alone. I honestly don’t care what people say about what gear other people wear nor do I care how people think the game should be played. If I cared, I’d still be playing dungeons, reporting exploiters and making suggestions on how to improve them.

There are other points in the game that likely need to change before dungeons start seeing more variety.

Pls show me a video of a zerker player soloing all dungeon paths. Then I will admit that I don’t know the fights well enough when I think I do for the ones I do know.

I am not willing to go full glass cannon because I, simply, stink at dodging on time for many attacks. I run out of stamina due to dodging twice when once would have worked, due to missed timing. I choose P/V/T gear (Soldier’s) to try to bolster my ability to take damage. (It’s not always very successful, but hey I have surprised myself sometimes.)

Do you learn the encounters? If you do, it’s simply a matter of timing which you’ll get the hang of.

However, should we blame ANet for people with bad attitudes looking down on those who don’t play their way? Because I have no problem with Berserker’s gear at all. My problem is the intolerant, self-important attitude of many who would say there’s no other way to play PvE, otherwise one MUST be selfish, which is utterly ridiculous and illogical (never mind mean-spirited, and indeed, where true selfishness lies.)

And by many you literally just mean me and nobody else because you can’t drop it.

It’s not ridiculous, it’s not illogical and I don’t actually care if it’s mean-spirited.

I’ll say it again – running stats that don’t maximise your group dps because they help yourself more, or even if you just prefer them is selfish. It’s such a simple concept, I don’t understand why you’re so opposed to it.

colesy.8490:

I am not willing to go full glass cannon because I, simply, stink at dodging on time for many attacks. I run out of stamina due to dodging twice when once would have worked, due to missed timing. I choose P/V/T gear (Soldier’s) to try to bolster my ability to take damage. (It’s not always very successful, but hey I have surprised myself sometimes.)

Do you learn the encounters? If you do, it’s simply a matter of timing which you’ll get the hang of.

However, should we blame ANet for people with bad attitudes looking down on those who don’t play their way? Because I have no problem with Berserker’s gear at all. My problem is the intolerant, self-important attitude of many who would say there’s no other way to play PvE, otherwise one MUST be selfish, which is utterly ridiculous and illogical (never mind mean-spirited, and indeed, where true selfishness lies.)

And by many you literally just mean me and nobody else because you can’t drop it.

It’s not ridiculous, it’s not illogical and I don’t actually care if it’s mean-spirited.

I’ll say it again – running stats that don’t maximise your group dps because they help yourself more, or even if you just prefer them is selfish. It’s such a simple concept, I don’t understand why you’re so opposed to it.

I am opposed to others being insulted because of their freedom to play as they choose, as if players had any control over how others should enjoy the game. Telling “you are selfish” to a wonderfully nice person that’s just enjoying the game as he/she wishes is actually the ultimate insult for him/her, and people shouldn’t make such assumptions about people they know nothing about.

And it’s not about you, because many are like you. This thread actually started because of someone else spouting the illogical statement elsewhere. It’s not personal, and I am sorry if you feel I am singling you out. The thought is arrogant, ridiculous, intolerant, and should have no place in the game (I am separating the sorry statement from the players who think that way, so don’t feel hated on.)

I am opposed to others being insulted because of their freedom to play as they choose, as if players had any control over how others should enjoy the game. Telling “you are selfish” to a wonderfully nice person that’s just enjoying the game as he/she wishes is actually the ultimate insult for him/her, and people shouldn’t make such assumptions about people they know nothing about.

So … it’s true but I shouldn’t say it because it hurts peoples’ feelings.

Right, I’ll get to you the day I care about what randoms on the internet feel.

Caramel Ham.4891:

Pls show me a video of a zerker player soloing all dungeon paths. Then I will admit that I don’t know the fights well enough when I think I do for the ones I do know.

But you already said you don’t care!

I mean, you don’t even have the decency of caring about the context in which someone attempts to communicate to you with. How the subject of my words somehow became you tells me enough! Or did you forget we’re talking about the zerker players that teamed with generalraccoon.3857? I haven’t yet jumped to the conclusion that you, Caramel Ham.4891, ever teamed with generalraccoon.3857 or that you personally know these mystery zerker players personally so can attribute the blame in circumstances you didn’t personally experience to any particular player.

Or perhaps you forgot you’re defending a set of stats over players?

colesy.8490:

I am opposed to others being insulted because of their freedom to play as they choose, as if players had any control over how others should enjoy the game. Telling “you are selfish” to a wonderfully nice person that’s just enjoying the game as he/she wishes is actually the ultimate insult for him/her, and people shouldn’t make such assumptions about people they know nothing about.

So … it’s true but I shouldn’t say it because it hurts peoples’ feelings.

Right, I’ll get to you the day I care about what randoms on the internet feel.

Yep, your attitude is the problem, not the gear. Hope you are nicer/more tolerant/more accepting towards the real-life people you know-and do realize that those “randoms” are real too.

Caramel Ham.4891:

Not to be a prick and no offense, but the reason zerker geared players die while running with you guys is exactly because he is running with you guys. The zerker player wont be able to avoid that much dmg when the fight is dragging on forever. This is why I run with two pieces of knights….because all I do is PUG. That is my sweet spot when others in my grp are running less than optimal gear for the content. My warrior also pulls out a long bow (thus dragging out the fight) when I think players in my grp are running something akin to white gear in dmg stats.

The only reason I don’t run full zerker is because I don’t bother asking for “zerk only” players, ping gear, etc. Im far too lazy for that. After all, it is the players choice to run with less optimal gear. It doesn’t change the fact that zerker gear is the most optimal gear for pve though.

This is probably answered in this fast growing thread, but i think its still good form to reply on the matter myself. No worries, im not offended by the assumption.

The way these zerker in party dies is simply this, within seconds of a fight they got hit by some aoe or rather hard blow from boss/mobs which doesnt even have to be the deadly 1-shot hit a boss does. Other people do this too, but traited with survival they last still, and with some strong heals, recover in no time. Remember we havent even gotten to any 1-shot-mandatory kill attacks yet. if this is AC, this is Kholer just jumping around still and not even gotten to his wire pull and spin attack thing.

I’ll be fair and not say its a zerker thing but a glass cannony thing, though those are close enough to be one. Now the will be some who ask why are we even taking such damage. It’s simple really, but i dont know if some can grasp it. Because we make mistakes. Because we either got timing off, reflexes not twitchy enough or at times in the midst of combat we miss out the telegraphs. so i dont know, I’m sorry most of us cant match your lvl of skill and reflex? We do try, but to be honest if we all go zerker zerker, by now our rate of success will be much lower, many of us will dread doing dungeons or such to a point the few still dedicated to it will have to pug for runs. But we didnt, we trait for survival, we dont care abt beating or matching an imposed timed constraint. we want to accomplish the dungeon and though we make mistakes but we can recover from it.

So unless zerkers can kill a boss within seconds of the engagement, no its not because the fight is too long for zerker.

I find myself happy assisting others, rez ppl when theyre down and such. MAYBE, just maybe me and mine, we dont see the fun in finishing dungeons in an optimal time. Maybe we see being supportive in other ways than just dps. We enjoy bringing any party of any level of skill a player has and still winning. I’m going to go and say perhaps our value in whats best is in certainty and flexibility rather than optimization. Perhaps this is where we differ.

I apologize beforehand if anyone feels i look down on zerkers though. i really dont. i just think its selfish to assume its the be all and end all way to go in pve. If the current trend is to favor PVT or knights or whatever traits, id still have the same opinion towards the matter. Can we not accept that other people not only prefer not to play as we do, but also perhaps that it is really difficult or they just could not play as we do?

Leo G.4501:

Caramel Ham.4891:

Pls show me a video of a zerker player soloing all dungeon paths. Then I will admit that I don’t know the fights well enough when I think I do for the ones I do know.

But you already said you don’t care!

I mean, you don’t even have the decency of caring about the context in which someone attempts to communicate to you with. How the subject of my words somehow became you tells me enough! Or did you forget we’re talking about the zerker players that teamed with generalraccoon.3857? I haven’t yet jumped to the conclusion that you, Caramel Ham.4891, ever teamed with generalraccoon.3857 or that you personally know these mystery zerker players personally so can attribute the blame in circumstances you didn’t personally experience to any particular player.

Or perhaps you forgot you’re defending a set of stats over players?

What? Stop getting your feeling all bunched up. I claimed that zerker players cannot survive all encounters with others players running pvt doing absolutely nothing.

You claimed you could easily do it and that since I cant then I must not know the encounters well enough.

I claimed that you could not and to show me proof that you could. Obviously I asked without expecting such proof because it does not exist.

You then again claimed that zerk players can solo content. In which I replied to you to show me video proof of zerker players soloing ALL dungeon paths.

So what was the point of me asking you to show me proof of a zerker players soloing all content? Its because you claimed that zerker players, if they know the content, can solo anything regardless if their team mates were bad.

In NO way or form im I defending anyone. I am stating the fact, the you so adamantly deny, that zerker gear is the best for pve (*dungeons). That’s all im saying so honestly I got no idea what you are arguing anymore since you keep moving the goal post.

*I really do need to clarify this since you seem not to get it. You can talk to me about solo pve all you want. I said I do NOT care. “Selfish” implies that you are in some form of a group. You cannot play selfishly when you are alone. Hence, usually when you are in a group, then you are doing dungeons. You can do whatever you want for open world. People run with full mf gear to farm world bosses, Champions, etc and no one cares.

Caramel Ham.4891:

Leo G.4501:

Caramel Ham.4891:

Pls show me a video of a zerker player soloing all dungeon paths. Then I will admit that I don’t know the fights well enough when I think I do for the ones I do know.

But you already said you don’t care!

I mean, you don’t even have the decency of caring about the context in which someone attempts to communicate to you with. How the subject of my words somehow became you tells me enough! Or did you forget we’re talking about the zerker players that teamed with generalraccoon.3857? I haven’t yet jumped to the conclusion that you, Caramel Ham.4891, ever teamed with generalraccoon.3857 or that you personally know these mystery zerker players personally so can attribute the blame in circumstances you didn’t personally experience to any particular player.

Or perhaps you forgot you’re defending a set of stats over players?

What? Stop getting your feeling all bunched up. I claimed that zerker players cannot survive all encounters with others players running pvt doing absolutely nothing.

You claimed you could easily do it and that since I cant then I must not know the encounters well enough.

I claimed that you could not and to show me proof that you could. Obviously I asked without expecting such proof because it does not exist.

You then again claimed that zerk players can solo content. In which I replied to you to show me video proof of zerker players soloing ALL dungeon paths.

So what was the point of me asking you to show me proof of a zerker players soloing all content? Its because you claimed that zerker players, if they know the content, can solo anything regardless if their team mates were bad.

In NO way or form im I defending anyone. I am stating the fact, the you so adamantly deny, that zerker gear is the best for pve (*dungeons). That’s all im saying so honestly I got no idea what you are arguing anymore since you keep moving the goal post.

*I really do need to clarify this since you seem not to get it. You can talk to me about solo pve all you want. I said I do NOT care. “Selfish” implies that you are in some form of a group. You cannot play selfishly when you are alone. Hence, usually when you are in a group, then you are doing dungeons. You can do whatever you want for open world. People run with full mf gear to farm world bosses, Champions, etc and no one cares.

It is only “selfish” when agreed upon and someone still uses the gear. Otherwise, it is not selfish at all, just players playing to their strengths/maximizing their playstyle (NOT necessarily DPS.)

Calling others selfish for not playing as the meta dictates is silly, and ANet knows it. That DPS overpowers most stuff doesn’t mean that people should be insulted for not using the highest DPS gear at all. These players are not selfish, but playing the game as well as they can, with the playstyle they prefer and suits them best (“zerk” is not an universal playstyle, despite it being highest DPS-it’s totally disrespectful to demand that every player must use it or else they are “baddies” or “selfish”-and this includes group play.)

Isn’t that the beauty of this game? if you are not confident with a fight, you can use gear with more health and toughness but if you trust your skills, you can switch and use stronger gear. isn’t that what action MMO are all about?

generalraccoon.3857:

Caramel Ham.4891:

Not to be a prick and no offense, but the reason zerker geared players die while running with you guys is exactly because he is running with you guys. The zerker player wont be able to avoid that much dmg when the fight is dragging on forever. This is why I run with two pieces of knights….because all I do is PUG. That is my sweet spot when others in my grp are running less than optimal gear for the content. My warrior also pulls out a long bow (thus dragging out the fight) when I think players in my grp are running something akin to white gear in dmg stats.

The only reason I don’t run full zerker is because I don’t bother asking for “zerk only” players, ping gear, etc. Im far too lazy for that. After all, it is the players choice to run with less optimal gear. It doesn’t change the fact that zerker gear is the most optimal gear for pve though.

This is probably answered in this fast growing thread, but i think its still good form to reply on the matter myself. No worries, im not offended by the assumption.

The way these zerker in party dies is simply this, within seconds of a fight they got hit by some aoe or rather hard blow from boss/mobs which doesnt even have to be the deadly 1-shot hit a boss does. Other people do this too, but traited with survival they last still, and with some strong heals, recover in no time. Remember we havent even gotten to any 1-shot-mandatory kill attacks yet. if this is AC, this is Kholer just jumping around still and not even gotten to his wire pull and spin attack thing.

I’ll be fair and not say its a zerker thing but a glass cannony thing, though those are close enough to be one. Now the will be some who ask why are we even taking such damage. It’s simple really, but i dont know if some can grasp it. Because we make mistakes. Because we either got timing off, reflexes not twitchy enough or at times in the midst of combat we miss out the telegraphs. so i dont know, I’m sorry most of us cant match your lvl of skill and reflex? We do try, but to be honest if we all go zerker zerker, by now our rate of success will be much lower, many of us will dread doing dungeons or such to a point the few still dedicated to it will have to pug for runs. But we didnt, we trait for survival, we dont care abt beating or matching an imposed timed constraint. we want to accomplish the dungeon and though we make mistakes but we can recover from it.

So unless zerkers can kill a boss within seconds of the engagement, no its not because the fight is too long for zerker.

I find myself happy assisting others, rez ppl when theyre down and such. MAYBE, just maybe me and mine, we dont see the fun in finishing dungeons in an optimal time. Maybe we see being supportive in other ways than just dps. We enjoy bringing any party of any level of skill a player has and still winning. I’m going to go and say perhaps our value in whats best is in certainty and flexibility rather than optimization. Perhaps this is where we differ.

I apologize beforehand if anyone feels i look down on zerkers though. i really dont. i just think its selfish to assume its the be all and end all way to go in pve. If the current trend is to favor PVT or knights or whatever traits, id still have the same opinion towards the matter. Can we not accept that other people not only prefer not to play as we do, but also perhaps that it is really difficult or they just could not play as we do?

Sorry, then I assumed wrong. I assumed based on my own experiences where it is usually the boss’ auto attacks that get me because the fight is dragging on for too long. For example the first boss in cof path 1.

I do find it hard to believe that someone would go down as soon as the fight starts with kholer though. Anything can happen I guess.

And thank you for replying with a well thought out response.

Star Ace.5207:

Caramel Ham.4891:

Leo G.4501:

Caramel Ham.4891:

Pls show me a video of a zerker player soloing all dungeon paths. Then I will admit that I don’t know the fights well enough when I think I do for the ones I do know.

But you already said you don’t care!

I mean, you don’t even have the decency of caring about the context in which someone attempts to communicate to you with. How the subject of my words somehow became you tells me enough! Or did you forget we’re talking about the zerker players that teamed with generalraccoon.3857? I haven’t yet jumped to the conclusion that you, Caramel Ham.4891, ever teamed with generalraccoon.3857 or that you personally know these mystery zerker players personally so can attribute the blame in circumstances you didn’t personally experience to any particular player.

Or perhaps you forgot you’re defending a set of stats over players?

What? Stop getting your feeling all bunched up. I claimed that zerker players cannot survive all encounters with others players running pvt doing absolutely nothing.

You claimed you could easily do it and that since I cant then I must not know the encounters well enough.

I claimed that you could not and to show me proof that you could. Obviously I asked without expecting such proof because it does not exist.

You then again claimed that zerk players can solo content. In which I replied to you to show me video proof of zerker players soloing ALL dungeon paths.

So what was the point of me asking you to show me proof of a zerker players soloing all content? Its because you claimed that zerker players, if they know the content, can solo anything regardless if their team mates were bad.

In NO way or form im I defending anyone. I am stating the fact, the you so adamantly deny, that zerker gear is the best for pve (*dungeons). That’s all im saying so honestly I got no idea what you are arguing anymore since you keep moving the goal post.

*I really do need to clarify this since you seem not to get it. You can talk to me about solo pve all you want. I said I do NOT care. “Selfish” implies that you are in some form of a group. You cannot play selfishly when you are alone. Hence, usually when you are in a group, then you are doing dungeons. You can do whatever you want for open world. People run with full mf gear to farm world bosses, Champions, etc and no one cares.

It is only “selfish” when agreed upon and someone still uses the gear. Otherwise, it is not selfish at all, just players playing to their strengths/maximizing their playstyle (NOT necessarily DPS.)

Calling others selfish for not playing as the meta dictates is silly, and ANet knows it. That DPS overpowers most stuff doesn’t mean that people should be insulted for not using the highest DPS gear at all. These players are not selfish, but playing the game as well as they can, with the playstyle they prefer and suits them best (“zerk” is not an universal playstyle, despite it being highest DPS-it’s totally disrespectful to demand that every player must use it or else they are “baddies” or “selfish”-and this includes group play.)

Ok, I think insulted is waayy to big of a response lol. Unless that individual repeatedly didn’t follow directions and just did what he wanted regardless that this was the 10th wipe.

As I have said, I run two pieces of knights because it is needed for me if im not in a full zerker grp. If survivability is a problem, they can always do what I did and still dish out pretty good dmg. Imo it is selfish though when you go full defensive gear and traits or healing lol.

Caramel Ham.4891:

Pls show me a video of a zerker player soloing all dungeon paths. Then I will admit that I don’t know the fights well enough when I think I do for the ones I do know.

If you had played dungeons enough you would know that lots of them require specific amount of “bodies” to stand somewhere or push buttons.
Anyways big amount of dungeon encounters have been soloed.

Wethospu.6437:

Caramel Ham.4891:

Pls show me a video of a zerker player soloing all dungeon paths. Then I will admit that I don’t know the fights well enough when I think I do for the ones I do know.

If you had played dungeons enough you would know that lots of them require specific amount of “bodies” to stand somewhere or push buttons.
Anyways big amount of dungeon encounters have been soloed.

I have seen some of the videos you have done, you are an awesome player no doubt. But that’s not what the discussion was about. He claimed that zerker (including himself when he decides to wear it) can pretty much do all fights without going down if you know the fights regardless of what his team mates are doing.

I argued otherwise giving him cof path 1 first boss as an example. I saw how you did it, you ranged his auto attacks and went in for the big dmg. Which is exactly what I told him was the only way for zerker to live through the fight when his team mates were not doing anything.

You also went down a couple of times…I guess you are a noob according to him lol.

Caramel Ham.4891:

You then again claimed that zerk players can solo content. In which I replied to you to show me video proof of zerker players soloing ALL dungeon paths.

So what was the point of me asking you to show me proof of a zerker players soloing all content? Its because you claimed that zerker players, if they know the content, can solo anything regardless if their team mates were bad.

Lol don’t get mad at me just because you feel like jumping to ridiculous conclusions.

I mention how zerker players solo content because it requires a duration of combat with a dangerous foe that is likely much longer than the same fight with 5 balanced party members.

So that somehow leads you to thinking zerkers soloing all content then you ask for proof of all content soloed?

First of all, stop being lazy. If you want to see solo dungeons, go find the solo dungeon thread in the dungeon subforums or type gw2 + solo + [name of whatever dungeon you want to see].

And second of all, know what the kitten conversation is about. It’s not about zerkers soloing content, it’s about zerkers surviving encounters. I don’t know where your aimless posts are going, maybe that players wearing PVT gear literally stand around to let zerker players die? What other foolish circumstance are you going to try and put forth to defend zerker stats or to put down as many people that like to try other stat combinations? Spent half a dozen pages trying to pin the blame of ‘selfishness’ on each other, wouldn’t put it past me if you start trying to measure intelligence by what gear someone decides to wear too.

Leo G.4501:

gurugeorge.9857:

But once they’ve learned the dungeon and know the story, it just becomes a farm that, if you aren’t doing it as efficiently as possible, you are wasting your time on.

I guess this is why I haven’t played dungeons as hardcore as I used to back in Feb and March. I guess after everyone enjoyed the story and camaraderie, everyone else flipped the farm switch and I flipped the challenge switch.

Everyone else must be seeking how to make the game as easy and simple as possible while I try to see if I can accomplish what I did before but in this way or that way. When players start crying about not stacking all up in each other, that’s when I lost the nerve to ever step into dungeons again.

I mean, all the cheating and cheeze-kitten tactics were bad enough, but ‘speed runs’ are just boring :P

Yup. While I think most people enjoy most aspects of an MMO at some time, most players usually have a primary orientation, and because of the way MMOs have been for the past decade or so, PvE is mainly a gear-grind orientation, not a “fun is challenging myself even more” orientation. The latter is alive and well in PvP, but for PvE the paradigm is “learn, get efficient, and farm”.

It reminds me of MMO discussions about “what’s the best class” – for some people this means “which class pwns the quickest”, but for others it means “which class has some depth and headroom so that I can challenge myself”.

Or, again, say in EVE Online, the ships of the Gallente race were in the doldrums for a while as the “weakest” ships. For some people, that meant they had to be avoided (and why on earth would you play something weak, isn’t the game about winning at all costs? ), for others, the fun was in the challenge of making the “weakest” work.

Or again, in this game, I remember in the early days, some people would say “why roll anything else than a Guardian or Warrior?”, because you can do with one keypress what other classes (e.g. Mesmer) could only do with several keypresses. But me, I always immediately gravitate first to the “fiddliest” class, and only later play the “easiest” class for a relaxing variation.

I think even if one were to have the paradigm of dungeons being continually changing and therefore unlearnable (at least in the easy way they’re learnable usually in MMOs), one would still have to accommodate players who like to farm, with other aspects of the game.

But I do think dungeons should especially be the place where challenge is the number one thing. You’re closed off in an instance, just the mobs and you, and you have to figure it out as a team and actually communicate. That, to me, is heavenly, it’s what I got into MMOs for. But once I’ve learned a dungeon, it loses all interest for me, it just becomes a hamster wheel – but then, I’m not interested in gear grind or accumulating virtual resources. For those who are interested in that, static dungeons are ideal farms.

Later note: just thought of something else that’s in the same ballpark. When games were stupidly hard things you had to repeat levels again and again to “beat”, and there was no saving progress, I had no interest in them. But when they became more like stories with a long progression, in which you could save progress, I became interested.

That’s my thing, I’m just more into the “virtual world” aspect of these types of games than the “competitive game” aspect. You are interested in the “self challenge” aspect. Others are interested in the “accumulation of virtual stuff” aspect.

Why can’t we all just get along? The devs do try their best to keep us all happy, we should all recognize that and not kitten about things that are in the game to suit other peoples’ playstyles than our own. Plus also, going out of one’s comfort zone is nice sometimes.

gurugeorge.9857:

I think even if one were to have the paradigm of dungeons being continually changing and therefore unlearnable (at least in the easy way they’re learnable usually in MMOs), one would still have to accommodate players who like to farm, with other aspects of the game.

They really should have made the dungeons semi-randomly generated, like the older Diablo games.

I sponsor 2 children over seas, donate hundreds of dollars to the food bank every year, do charity work with our church and give my bottles to the local bum every time I see him rummaging through trash/recycling bins on our street but I am a selfish person because I wear less than optimal gear in a video game? What’s wrong with you people?

Whether you donate hundreds of dollars to a food bank is irrelevant, using less than optimal gear in a dungeon is still selfish.

Why waste your time with emotional arguments on the internet when nobody gives a toss?

colesy.8490:

Whether you donate hundreds of dollars to a food bank is irrelevant, using less than optimal gear in a dungeon is still selfish.

Why waste your time with emotional arguments on the internet when nobody gives a toss?

As another perspective, aren’t we all selfish in this game? I mean, when I’m playing it’s definitely “me” time.

Some of you may not understand, but at some point you may have real life obligations and people who want your time and attention 24/7. When I play a game, I’m taking time away and energy away from other things that are more deserving of my attention (family + job > Guild Wars).

As long as I’m civil and don’t scam anyone, why should I give a kitten about whether or not I’m doing right by anyone else in the game? I’m already neglecting things far more important (to me) than anyone in the game.

Of course we’re all selfish in this game, it’s just these people in this thread are going out of their way to try and deny it.

colesy.8490:

Of course we’re all selfish in this game, it’s just these people in this thread are going out of their way to try and deny it.

Yeah, I was too selfish to read the entire thread. Just bored and looking to stir up trouble. :-D

And the “Manifesto Clarification” thread has burned itself out for me.

edit: But sometimes I feel like people post these threads that accuse others of being selfish or entitled or wanting everything now or being unwilling to work (which I read as grind), and generally my response is “well.. Yes. That basically describes me (in game)”

colesy.8490:

Of course we’re all selfish in this game, it’s just these people in this thread are going out of their way to try and deny it.

I’m not selfish in this game just because some dipkitten on the internet thinks that I owe him to play the game his way.

AntiGw.9367:

colesy.8490:

Of course we’re all selfish in this game, it’s just these people in this thread are going out of their way to try and deny it.

I’m not selfish in this game just because some dipkitten on the internet thinks that I owe him to play the game his way.

Lol but remember, that poster said being ‘selfish’ isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

Apparently he just wants the satisfaction of you saying (typing?) that you are selfish.

Poor poor sods. lol

colesy.8490:

Whether you donate hundreds of dollars to a food bank is irrelevant, using less than optimal gear in a dungeon is still selfish.

Why waste your time with emotional arguments on the internet when nobody gives a toss?

It’s not an emotional argument cause I really couldn’t give 2 kittens about what anybody here thinks and the whole thread is nothing but 1 big troll fest. Just read the title, it screams troll. I was just trying to demonstrate, on the off chance that there are non-trolls in here, that categorizing people for a choice of gear in a video is wrong and that’s why so many feel insulted by comments like that.

“Wearing zerk is being narrow minded and arrogant” I don’t even have to explain why cause this thread speaks for itself.

Julie Yann.5379:

…and the whole thread is nothing but 1 big troll fest.

And I’ve been found out. Ah well, onto the next thread :-P

I’m not selfish in this game just because some dipkitten on the internet thinks that I owe him to play the game his way.

Using gear with stats that doesn’t contribute to your party and only helps yourself in a dungeon is selfish.

It’s not an emotional argument cause I really couldn’t give 2 kittens about what anybody here thinks and the whole thread is nothing but 1 big troll fest. Just read the title, it screams troll. I was just trying to demonstrate, on the off chance that there are non-trolls in here, that categorizing people for a choice of gear in a video is wrong and that’s why so many feel insulted by comments like that.

In your previous post you basically said “I do all this awesome stuff and you still think I’m selfish, madness!”. If I kill an innocent and then kill 50 bad guys afterwards and I’m convicted for killing the innocent, it doesn’t change the fact that I killed them. Again here, just because you do X, Y and Z awesome things which are selfless doesn’t mean using non-zerker gear isn’t selfish.

I like to think that gradually I’m reducing the stigma of the word here and you guys will just accept it. There’s nothing wrong with admiting you use gear that isn’t optimal and that it’s selfish, it’s just the denial of those two things which I find odd.

colesy.8490:

In your previous post you basically said “I do all this awesome stuff and you still think I’m selfish, madness!”. If I kill an innocent and then kill 50 bad guys afterwards and I’m convicted for killing the innocent, it doesn’t change the fact that I killed them. Again here, just because you do X, Y and Z awesome things which are selfless doesn’t mean using non-zerker gear isn’t selfish.

/troll cap on

Well, crime is wholly different from morals. You can commit a crime and still be moral, for instance. While killing is immoral, it is also a crime. If you take food without permission that is to be discarded by your employer and give it to a homeless shelter, you are stealing and committing a crime. Doesn’t matter what you were going to do with the goods, you can still be punished. And killing anyone is inherently immoral, no matter if they are good or bad.

Wearing what you want instead of what is required might be immoral but it isn’t a crime. You can make up for immoral actions, but you cannot make up for crimes without punishment. I.e. wearing what you want isn’t equivalent to killing people.

Heck, it’s not even immoral. It’s a preference. It’d be like deeming non-heterosexual people as disgusting for their preference. You can’t dictate someone’s moral standings solely by their preferences and selfishness is an extreme judgement of a person’s character as being bad.

And for the record, being selfless isn’t good either unless your survival and well being isn’t an issue. Donating to charity is being generous, not selfless.

So why not flip your frown upsidedown and instead of calling non-zerkers selfish, call yourself generous? Everybody wins.

No, not everybody wins because people will continue to believe in the delusion of non-Zerker armour actually being good, and the game being … difficult.

colesy.8490:

No, not everybody wins because people will continue to believe in the delusion of non-Zerker armour actually being good, and the game being … difficult.

Difficulty is subjective.

Just because a couple pieces of content actually require you to turn your brain on doesn’t make it difficult.

For example, I can do COF and COE purely off of muscle memory whereas something like dredge fractal requires you to take your initiative. Nevertheless, it’s not hard, it’s just tedious and boring.

colesy.8490:

In your previous post you basically said “I do all this awesome stuff and you still think I’m selfish, madness!”. If I kill an innocent and then kill 50 bad guys afterwards and I’m convicted for killing the innocent, it doesn’t change the fact that I killed them. Again here, just because you do X, Y and Z awesome things which are selfless doesn’t mean using non-zerker gear isn’t selfish.

I like to think that gradually I’m reducing the stigma of the word here and you guys will just accept it. There’s nothing wrong with admiting you use gear that isn’t optimal and that it’s selfish, it’s just the denial of those two things which I find odd.

Not everyone is capable of using berserker gear at an acceptable level of use.

If you can’t well use the gear in question and you end up being constantly downed, by using berserker gear, you’re being selfish toward your teammates.

Whereas the same person might perform leagues better in gear that gives them more wiggle room to eat devastating attacks that would have otherwise downed them in berserker gear.

What makes one an elitist is a complete disregard for this fact; not everyone is on your level or will get on your level.

Some people can’t physically play on that level, due to CPU limitations. What’s easily choreographed to you as it’s happening is two seconds too late on another persons CPU, if they can see it at all.

-inb4 playing on less then optimal hardware is selfish-

If you’re dealing with PUGs no less, you’re absolutely daft if you think you can judge someones skill based on what gear they’re wearing.

That said, your speed runs are your business.

But don’t sit there and try to preach from this holier than thou angle of selfless VS selfish and other gear tier BS on the community as a whole.

None of it matters outside the context of the CoF speed clear crowd.

Trice.4598:

Isn’t that the beauty of this game? if you are not confident with a fight, you can use gear with more health and toughness but if you trust your skills, you can switch and use stronger gear. isn’t that what action MMO are all about?

It’s not that simple. When the game was brand new and the dungeon meta hadn’t had time to gel, people were learning the encounters. People were having fun figuring out what worked. Now, people are farming the dungeons.

Content repeated over and over and over again can get boring. However, the rewards are still interesting. It’s at this point that efficiency becomes a bigger deal. Efficiency is always going to matter to some people, but it will matter to more people once they’ve gotten the encounters down and crunched the numbers to see what works best.

If you’re doing the same thing for the umpty-seventh time, someone else dragging that experience out becomes … well, undesirable. I saw a friendship end in WoW because of this. A guild officer got his “final” piece of tier gear and insisted on going back to town to enchant it. The MT, who was already geared and was already begrudging doing the raid, rage quit and ended up leaving the guild once things got heated. This was over a 10 minute wait, when in the past the MT would take 10 minute bio breaks.

There are people for whom playing efficiently is at least part of the fun. There are people who value other things. These two groups are not always going to get along with each other. By the strictest definition of the word, both groups are being selfish, because their own preference matters more to them than the other’s preference.

Honestly, these two groups should not play with each other. They want different things from a dungeon run, and those desires are not compatible. Yet, both want to PuG. Go figure.

colesy.8490:

For example, I can do COF and COE purely off of muscle memory whereas something like dredge fractal requires you to take your initiative. Nevertheless, it’s not hard, it’s just tedious and boring.

Funny, when I get to the point where I do things on ‘auto-pilot’, I generally try different gear, weapons and tactics.

If this were a career or menial task like driving or doing the dishes, yeah I might try aiming to get things done properly or with speed. But for a game? Nah.

And point still stands; difficulty is subjective. I remember coming back after a 3 week break from the game and logging onto my Elementalist whom I hadn’t played for over 2 months…even Sorrow’s Embrace was ‘difficult’ until I got back into the swing of things….and then I spec’ed into his current 15/15/15/15/10 build.

colesy.8490:

Just because a couple pieces of content actually require you to turn your brain on doesn’t make it difficult.

For example, I can do COF and COE purely off of muscle memory whereas something like dredge fractal requires you to take your initiative. Nevertheless, it’s not hard, it’s just tedious and boring.

The main problem with your statements is that you are painting everyone the same color. Like it has been said before, not everyone is capable of playing in zerker gear (connection speed, physical limitaions, god awful reflexes, new to the game). Them choosing to make of for it with a little more toughness/vitality/healing so that they don’t get down does not make them selfish. It makes them smart, and I would rather have 1 of them on my team than a Noob in Zerk gear that read somewhere that everything is easier in zerk gear and dies cause he can’t handle it.

colesy.8490:

Nevertheless, it’s not hard, it’s just tedious and boring.

To you it is. To me it isn’t.

It’s selfish because it slows people down. I don’t care if that hurts your feelings. It’s true and if you believe that wearing non-zerk gear doesn’t slow you down then I can’t really explain it to you.
And don’t tell me how unselfish your “healer” build is because it’s completely pointless. The scaling on heals is terrible for PvE. Also every fight is doable without healing power gear. What that gear does is just slow down your team.
Again – it’s selfish because you slow down 4 other people. If you want to run whatever gear you want then don’t join zerk/farm/speed run parties.

Wryog.5073:

Again – it’s selfish because you slow down 4 other people. If you want to run whatever gear you want then don’t join zerk/farm/speed run parties.

I believe this thread isn’t about zerk/farm/speed run parties, it’s about dungeons in general. Obviously if a player with defensive gear joins a party specifically created to clear content as fast as possible, then that’s selfish, yeah.

Funny, when I get to the point where I do things on ‘auto-pilot’, I generally try different gear, weapons and tactics.

Why would I purposely make things harder for myself by using bad gear? Giving myself a challenge would be something like “solo X dungeon”, or “complete Y dungeon without going down” or “only use Z weapon in X dungeon”.

COE and COF were dungeons I farmed anyway, so using different gear/tactics would just make the runs slower.

And point still stands; difficulty is subjective. I remember coming back after a 3 week break from the game and logging onto my Elementalist whom I hadn’t played for over 2 months…even Sorrow’s Embrace was ‘difficult’ until I got back into the swing of things….and then I spec’ed into his current 15/15/15/15/10 build.

Except … gw2 was designed as a casual game so everything is easy? And you found it difficult because you had to readjust and were out of practice, some of the people in this thread are actually saying the content is just plain challenging when it’s not.

Like it has been said before, not everyone is capable of playing in zerker gear (connection speed, physical limitaions, god awful reflexes, new to the game). Them choosing to make of for it with a little more toughness/vitality/healing so that they don’t get down does not make them selfish. It makes them smart, and I would rather have 1 of them on my team than a Noob in Zerk gear that read somewhere that everything is easier in zerk gear and dies cause he can’t handle it.

I already said that physical limitations are a perfectly fine reason for not using zerker so what’s the point in bringing them up? No, I do not expect the person with the awful ping to be able to effectively evade bosses. Those people choosing to use something PVT is out of necessity, and yet they’re still selfish because they’re dragging their team down. Sure, I’m being blunt but it’s true. Whenever my ping stays bad for a while it’s at that point that I quit anyway so that I stop dragging my team down because it’s not fair on them.

And yeah, I wouldn’t want a noob zerker on my team but as long as they were willing to learn I’d be fine. At least that way when they figured out what to do they wouldn’t be like the noob PVT player who learns but is still useless to the team.

To you it is. To me it isn’t.

Then run a good class composition. If you have a mesmer and a guard in your group they can reflect dredge projectiles, give protection and blocks to your team and the mesmer can even grant stealth with the bombs part (unless you’re lucky and get the left path). If you have those in your group and still have trouble with it, then you’re bad.

colesy.8490:

To you it is. To me it isn’t.

Then run a good class composition. If you have a mesmer and a guard in your group they can reflect dredge projectiles, give protection and blocks to your team and the mesmer can even grant stealth with the bombs part (unless you’re lucky and get the left path). If you have those in your group and still have trouble with it, then you’re bad.

I meant the tedious and boring part. I don’t find CoF, CoE or Fractals to be tedious or boring, even though I’ve done them plenty of times (not farmed, though).

I’ve farmed CoF and CoE to a far lesser extent. Seeing how fast you can do a dungeon stops being fun when you can do CoF consistently in 5 1/2 minutes and CoE in 40-ish minutes provided you or your group don’t slip up.

Dredge fractal … well I just hate dredge. Protection just makes them die slower and immune to blind is annoying when running a guard with four blinds.

I swear, it’s like talking to a child.

“Pizza is only good with pepperoni. Mushrooms and olives and all those other toppings are poopie and you’re selfish for ordering it on your pizzas.”

Well, sometimes you like adding new toppings to add flavor or just to try things out…

“NO! IT’S POOPIE! And you’re selfish! Pepperoni is the best!”

~sigh~

That analogy sucks.

If repetitive speed dungeon runs is your idea of a good time, then by all means stay full zerker. However, full zerkers gear in WvW makes a player rally fodder for the smart people who are running PVT and can survive forever. Full zerkers die in WvW like flies. I’ll be collecting dozens of bags while the zerkers respawn and (try to) run back.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

That analogy sucks.

It’s not when you realize this is a game.

Daddar.5971:

If repetitive speed dungeon runs is your idea of a good time, then by all means stay full zerker. However, full zerkers gear in WvW makes a player rally fodder for the smart people who are running PVT and can survive forever. Full zerkers die in WvW like flies. I’ll be collecting dozens of bags while the zerkers respawn and (try to) run back.

It’s fine to run zerker if you’re in the back line or skirmishing on the sides, I do it during guild raids and my survivability (or lack of) is fine. But sure, if you’re bombing then yes, running zerker is stupid since you’ll melt.

And no you won’t be collecting tons of bags considering they barely drop now.

Colesy, man this game seems like way too much of a job too you. Ever think you might be bored and ready for another game? I mean seriously…. When something becomes as boring as you seem to make it out to be, it is time to change it up and play something new, come back a few months later.

I mean, you sound like you don’t have fun playing. You just run dungeons and stuff out of pure habit…. That sounds like a straight downer to me.

I haven’t even played it for two weeks, I’ve had GPU and sound issues on my computer.

Once I get it working though I’m just going to grind for my legendary then spend my time in WvW since it’s the only game mode which is dynamic, challenging and still allows me to use my PVE gear (unlike PVP), plus it means I get to chat to all the awesome guys I met on Seafarer’s Rest.

When I get to that stage I’ll still hold my views though, just because I stopped grinding doesn’t make zerker any worse, it doesn’t make non-zerkers any less leeches and it won’t make me detest the idiots of the gw2 community any less.

Leo G.4501:

I swear, it’s like talking to a child.

“Pizza is only good with pepperoni. Mushrooms and olives and all those other toppings are poopie and you’re selfish for ordering it on your pizzas.”

Well, sometimes you like adding new toppings to add flavor or just to try things out…

“NO! IT’S POOPIE! And you’re selfish! Pepperoni is the best!”

~sigh~

had to lol at this one

colesy.8490:

I haven’t even played it for two weeks, I’ve had GPU and sound issues on my computer.

Once I get it working though I’m just going to grind for my legendary then spend my time in WvW since it’s the only game mode which is dynamic, challenging and still allows me to use my PVE gear (unlike PVP), plus it means I get to chat to all the awesome guys I met on Seafarer’s Rest.

When I get to that stage I’ll still hold my views though, just because I stopped grinding doesn’t make zerker any worse, it doesn’t make non-zerkers any less leeches and it won’t make me detest the idiots of the gw2 community any less.

Not playing the game your way doesn’t make anyone an idiot.