Guild Wars 2

aliksyian.7642:

Jski.6180:

For fractal and its a non gold cost item its a time cost item. If any thing Ascended items should be hosted up to show this game is not a p2w as some ppl love to call it.
Now i am not saying ppl who do not like Ascended items want to get to be p2w but i am not comply sure after reading ppl post.

I’m sorry but I honestly cannot parse what you are trying to say.

That holding to a view point has it own set of implication. Mainly that being ant Ascended items as they are now also means your for exotic level gear this gear is buy able with gold and gems you can use to get gold. This means you can buy exotic level gear (ideally the higher level of gear for thoughts who dislike Ascended) making it seem like the game of GW2 is P2W (truly even this is not a true P2W because the idea of P2W is on the lines of being able to only get items that you can only buy with real life money but ppl do not seem to like to use the true meaning of words like calling Ascended items a treadmill).
That came off a lot more complex then i wanted but i think it works.

critickitten.1498:

Something that people need to remember: I’m not complaining about this because I hate the game, I’m complaining because I love this game but I see it taking a very worrying path towards WoW and other MMOs, instead of being the shining example of next-gen MMO gaming that it claims to be. GW2 can’t call itself a “revolution” if it’s just going to do a lot of the same things that other MMOs do (even if it does them better), people will call them on that and it’ll hurt their image.

The image is already hurt, and tarnished, and there’s enough people screaming about it right now and in the past. There is no repairing the damage the discussion has caused, because we’re already at a point where some people won’t stop talking about it negatively in any thread anywhere. Official forums or not.

It’s no longer a “shining example”. It’s a slightly tarnished example and getting more so as time wears on, just from the amount of dirt being flung. I’m not going to say it’s unwarranted, or warranted, the point is:

People are slinging mud. This game is no longer going to proceed without people being aware of that mudslinging, regardless of whether it’s true or not. It’s like if you talk to someone who’s never played EvE Online and only done a cursory look, it’s all about the PvP and massive space battles. Or Dwarf Fortress is all about drunken dwarves on fire . . .

. . . nevermind that last one is fairly on target.

Yes it’s still here, like a bad cousin moving in…

Just pretend its not a Guildwars franchise game like i do and you’ll be fine..

Yes, them introducing 2 pieces of equipment that are a few % stronger made you quit the game. I CBA to do the math, but if you really quit over 1-3% stats, well no comment.

Someone said once, how does it HURT YOU that they made ascended gear? Did not read your post but I’m 100% sure you did not do fractal’s to level 10. SO how did them making ascended gear HURT YOU? A mere 1-3% stat difference compared to maybe 15% of the population? Ah valid point, guess that makes it okay.

Pandeh.5248:

Yes, them introducing 2 pieces of equipment that are a few % stronger made you quit the game. I CBA to do the math, but if you really quit over 1-3% stats, well no comment.

Someone didn’t read any of the posts before his.

critickitten.1498:

1) Each individual piece of Ascended gear is 5-10% stronger than its Exotic variant. While this seems relatively small, even a mere 5% boost to every single piece of equipment can yield significantly higher damage (nearly 13%), not to mention you’ll be taking at least 5% less damage (more if you’re built to tank instead of berserk, as the linked calculations are). That is not the insignificantly small margin that people claim it is.

I play the entire game np with exotics and green trinkets (on some alts), I dunno what the problem is. And I’m still a better party member than a noob with ascended gear.

I used to complain as well about it. But you can only complain and sigh for so long. At that point either three things are gonna happen: you quit coz you honestly can’t take the extra gear climb, you still play but shy away from fractals/ascended stuff, or you eventually cave in to doing them.

Eventually, I started doing fractals and getting my rings. If stats are all you need, it’s fairly easy to get the rings that you want. Just do them until level 10, and keep repeating lvl 10 over and over till you get your ring or till you get enough pristine talics for it. Amulets are a daily laurel thing so it shouldn’t be a problem. The last problem is the backpiece, which costs 1850 fractal relics. Now this might seem much, but if you do enough runs, eventually you’ll get yours.

kenshinakh.3672:

Ascended items… it’s been discussed to death >.<.

Maybe they are being discussed to death because they hurt enough peoples experience in GW2 to drive them to make forum posts about. I know these topics get old, but the sheer amount of outcry against them is notable.

anyway…
@ aliksyian

Yes Ascended items are still “a thing” however you know that already. All I can say is that they don’t currently make that big a difference outside of Fractals. I know that post after post of people claiming that they do, but only in rare instances in WvW will it ever come up.

What I would be angry about is the fact that they are actually restricting the power of certain builds by not having proper ascended stats for every exotic equivalent. Now that’s a bigger problem.

If you want my opinion, just give the game a shot again. See if ascendeds do directly hurt your experience. If they don’t, then “YAY! welcome back!” if not, then im sorry… at least you tried.

Quick Mouse.7635:

aliksyian.7642:

It does sound like it will take an awful amount of time to get a complete set of ascended gear for multiple characters.

No, it generally becomes easier the more characters you have since dailies are character specific. Meaning you can do the daily multiple times a day!
Also keep in mind only a few ascended items have been released (rings, amulets, and backpacks).
It took me just over two weeks of just doing the dailies with my two characters to gear them completely.

cough this is not true at all

Dailies are now account wide, and laurels are account wide.

This means that you are perma-blocked, and the more toons you have, the worse off you are.

plasmacutter.2709:

Quick Mouse.7635:

aliksyian.7642:

It does sound like it will take an awful amount of time to get a complete set of ascended gear for multiple characters.

No, it generally becomes easier the more characters you have since dailies are character specific. Meaning you can do the daily multiple times a day!
Also keep in mind only a few ascended items have been released (rings, amulets, and backpacks).
It took me just over two weeks of just doing the dailies with my two characters to gear them completely.

cough this is not true at all

Dailies are now account wide, and laurels are account wide.

This means that you are perma-blocked, and the more toons you have, the worse off you are.

daily ACHIEVEMENTS have always been account bound.
daily FRACTALS have always been character bound.

Jski.6180:

aliksyian.7642:

I think you’re missing the point.

Can you answer “if 55 points isn’t important, why have it at all?”

For fractal and its a non gold cost item its a time cost item. If any thing Ascended items should be hosted up to show this game is not a p2w as some ppl love to call it.
Now i am not saying ppl who do not like Ascended items want to get to be p2w but i am not comply sure after reading ppl post.

Somehow, i get the feeling that you are answering a different question that was asked. I’m not even sure what question you tried to answer at all.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Quick Mouse.7635:

It took me just over two weeks of just doing the dailies with my two characters to gear them completely.

plasmacutter.2709:

cough this is not true at all

Dailies are now account wide, and laurels are account wide.

This means that you are perma-blocked, and the more toons you have, the worse off you are.

daily ACHIEVEMENTS have always been account bound.
daily FRACTALS have always been character bound.

Yes. good luck completely gearing (which includes amulets) two chars in two weeks

While ascended gear has some benefits you should not forget some of the drawbacks:
- it is far less flexible because you don’t have a choice in gems
- it is far less flexible because it lacks several stats
In a game that’s skill based, flexibility trumps raw numbers in many cases. Given that +healing ascended does not exist means that several builds become worse with ascended.

That being said, I don’t think it was the good way to implement a new tier. It is getting easier though and new items are released at a very slow pace. I’m still on the edge but inclining towards positive if and only if this is the only new tier to be released and no new levels.

Let’s also not forget that ascended items aren’t going to save you from dodge or die mechanics, condition stacks, PvE mob juggles, stun locks, Treb shots, or falling.

Everything deadly about the game is still deadly. Pink text or not.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes. good luck completely gearing (which includes amulets) two chars in two weeks

You can “completely gear” two characters in about 15 minutes.

The circular path that these discussions follow always strikes me as so peculiar, because they all seem to boil down to the idea that “gearing up” your character means “obtaining a best-in-slot item for every slot.” Why? Is it other games that reinforced the idea that this was necessary? It wasn’t something that I considered particularly important even before Ascended gear was added. First of all, it’s not really cost effective! Lots of level 80 exotic pieces are outrageously overpriced on the TP considering the diminishing returns on stacking stats.

We talk about Ascended gear like it’s corrupting ArenaNet’s vision of a skill-driven game focusing on horizontal progression, while suddenly forgetting what an actual gear treadmill honestly looks like. It’s almost as though someone has been spreading around the rumor that equipping that final piece of best-in-slot gear, finally putting on that Ascended amulet you’ve been required to grind for, unlocks some secret part of the game that you can’t reach otherwise. But such a rumor would be best described as an outright lie.

There’s no individual piece of content in the game that requires Ascended gear. There’s no piece of content in the game in the game that requires level-80 Exotic gear. There’s no piece of content in the game, quite frankly, that requires level 80 Rare gear, especially when it comes to accessories, as my Mesmer still wearing a laughably old blue amulet can attest. Nothing- nothing is tuned to require a specific threshold of gear to be able to complete. It’s simply not that type of game.

I want to stress that this is true even for high-level fractals. You do stand a much better chance of surviving if them if you have Ascended gear, but this is because of the infusions that provide Agony Resistance, and not because of the stat increase. Indeed, thinking that the stat boost of an ascended piece will help you out noticeably in high-level fractals- rather than the needed improvement in skill, forethought and survivability- will get you killed rapidly.

That leaves WvW, where the rather more legitimate complaint comes in that you’re going up against other humans on uneven footing. But I’d counter that WvW was designed to be, at all times, wildly unbalanced in any individual encounter. It’s not meant to put players on an even playing field. Even so, I will indeed be happy when WvW-only players get their method of acquiring Ascended gear.

My overarching point is that when someone says “you don’t need Ascended gear” they’re not trying to pull one over on you; they’re telling the truth.

I just don’t understand where the idea came from in the first place, and just on top of that it really is not particularly taxing to get if you do want it- 10 daily runs of Fractal level 10 for a ring of your choice, with a chance for an extra one each time. It only gets easier from there. Is doing your daily and monthly considered too much for casual players who wish to pursue an ascended piece? Can the argument really be reduced to “I have 6 level 80s and it’s going to take me 6 times as long to get them all the best gear in the game?”

Anyway, if anyone reading and scared that they omg need ascended gear this is a grindy nightmare must get it would like a more detailed explanation as to how GW2 does not feature a gear treadmill in any real sense, I can give one with shiny stats and examples and what have you; feel free to PM me.

Hawkian.6580:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes. good luck completely gearing (which includes amulets) two chars in two weeks

You can “completely gear” two characters in about 15 minutes.

The circular path that these discussions follow always strikes me as so peculiar, because they all seem to boil down to the idea that “gearing up” your character means “obtaining a best-in-slot item for every slot.” Why? Is it other games that reinforced the idea that this was necessary? It wasn’t something that I considered particularly important even before Ascended gear was added. First of all, it’s not really cost effective! Lots of level 80 exotic pieces are outrageously overpriced on the TP considering the diminishing returns on stacking stats.

We talk about Ascended gear like it’s corrupting ArenaNet’s vision of a skill-driven game focusing on horizontal progression, while suddenly forgetting what an actual gear treadmill honestly looks like. It’s almost as though someone has been spreading around the rumor that equipping that final piece of best-in-slot gear, finally putting on that Ascended amulet you’ve been required to grind for, unlocks some secret part of the game that you can’t reach otherwise. But such a rumor would be best described as an outright lie.

There’s no individual piece of content in the game that requires Ascended gear. There’s no piece of content in the game in the game that requires level-80 Exotic gear. There’s no piece of content in the game, quite frankly, that requires level 80 Rare gear, especially when it comes to accessories, as my Mesmer still wearing a laughably old blue amulet can attest. Nothing- nothing is tuned to require a specific threshold of gear to be able to complete. It’s simply not that type of game.

I want to stress that this is true even for high-level fractals. You do stand a much better chance of surviving if them if you have Ascended gear, but this is because of the infusions that provide Agony Resistance, and not because of the stat increase. Indeed, thinking that the stat boost of an ascended piece will help you out noticeably in high-level fractals- rather than the needed improvement in skill, forethought and survivability- will get you killed rapidly.

That leaves WvW, where the rather more legitimate complaint comes in that you’re going up against other humans on uneven footing. But I’d counter that WvW was designed to be, at all times, wildly unbalanced in any individual encounter. It’s not meant to put players on an even playing field. Even so, I will indeed be happy when WvW-only players get their method of acquiring Ascended gear.

My overarching point is that when someone says “you don’t need Ascended gear” they’re not trying to pull one over on you; they’re telling the truth.

I just don’t understand where the idea came from in the first place, and just on top of that it really is not particularly taxing to get if you do want it- 10 daily runs of Fractal level 10 for a ring of your choice, with a chance for an extra one each time. It only gets easier from there. Is doing your daily and monthly considered too much for casual players who wish to pursue an ascended piece? Can the argument really be reduced to “I have 6 level 80s and it’s going to take me 6 times as long to get them all the best gear in the game?”

Anyway, if anyone reading and scared that they omg need ascended gear this is a grindy nightmare must get it would like a more detailed explanation as to how GW2 does not feature a gear treadmill in any real sense, I can give one with shiny stats and examples and what have you; feel free to PM me.

Dude, I’ve been trying to explain this since Nov. 15th. Good luck.

Haha it’s not that I expect to succeed in convincing anyone who’s actually taking the time to argue on these boards, but if anyone lurking and happening into this thread got the impression that they really were being forced to grind for gear took the time to read it, it was worth typing up. :P

AcidicVision.5498:

Jski.6180:

Now its not a stretch of the imagination that thoughts with out these items who cant do things are blaming the fact that they do not have the items before they blame there own skill. It realty all an ego thing (blame every thing else on a fail before you blame your self).

Well if you look at Tigirius’s post history its ascended items, Legendary grind, engineer balance, profession bugs, DE design, and DR that are holding him back. And that was only page 1.

And he has a habit of confirmation bias. Like posting two vanilla rings with no upgrades against two of the ascended items that are lower capped for multiple stats. What he should have done is compared those particular ascended items to something like the Triforce pendant or Karka shell. But that wouldn’t have aided his point.

Reality looks more like this:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ruby_Orichalcum_Ring_of_the_Berserker with
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exquisite_Ruby_Jewel
92 pwr
63 pre
+6% crit

compared to its equivalent ascended… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Red_Ring_of_Death

103 pwr
68 pre
+8% crit

Yes ascended are supposed to be better. Like has been said multiple times, its gear between exotic and legendary that is supposed to take time to get, and is acquired while you make legendary progress (ie Dailies for Karma, Fractals for Cores and T6 mats all result in progress towards ascended). But as you can see from the practical example, the stat bump isn’t so insane that it makes exotics redundant.

The issue is not that the initial pieces of Ascended gear make Exotics redundant, they don’t. The issue is that they represent the path of the power curve. We don’t so much have Ascended gear post 11/15 as we have vertical progression. Vertical: the power level increases. Progression: it periodically and continually increases over time. It is a straightforward concept in gaming but it appears to be a challenging concept for some to comprehend on the forums. In a vertically progressing game you either tread the path of the power curve or you stop playing the game. It is viewed as a method of giving players a sense of progression and an incentive to play. The defense of Anet’s implementation of VP that we see here is that it is insignificant. That, of course, is interesting in itself. How many of you would be proud to have worked hard and accomplished something insignificant? But, also of course, vertical progression takes place over time and over time it will not be insignificant. It is the power curve that you climb in order to continue playing the game. This is what people object to, not an Ascended ring or an Ascended amulet. That would be a red herring if you are looking for your own logical fallacy.

I wouldn’t mind getting some clarification on your claims there, if you have the chance.

You say that “in a vertically progressing game you either tread the past of the power curve or you stop playing the game.” I wholeheartedly agree. There are hundreds of these games on the market; we don’t have to namedrop any, I’m sure you have some in mind right now. In those games, it is the basis for the motivation to play. The sense of reward for time invested comes as a result of ever-increasing numbers on a stat screen.

Thus the concern is that GW2 will become that sort of game. While that might well sound like a legitimate concern, I haven’t seen anyone come close to explaining how it is that sort of game now, or what evidence there is that it will ever become that kind of game (let alone do so in the near-term).

If I read you correctly, you concede that the VP afforded by Ascended gear is insignificant at present but have no doubt that it will, at some point, become significant- required to “continue playing the game.” Is that correct?

Raine.1394:

It is the power curve that you climb in order to continue playing the game. This is what people object to, not an Ascended ring or an Ascended amulet. That would be a red herring if you are looking for your own logical fallacy.

Right. The problem there is that power curve does not exist and no climbing is required. People are objecting to something that is not only not present in the game now, but whether or not it ever will be is total conjecture.

The ascended gear that some players are using as evidence of this statement:
“It is the power curve that you climb in order to continue playing the game. "
Actually disproves that statement because it’s not required to continue playing the game. Exotics are still the baseline.

People seem to have forgotten how gear in games before GW worked. The “treadmill” model is to get tier 1 belt-buckle so people will group with you for runs to a loot tier 2 belt-buckle so you can pass gear checks into a raid for the tier 3 belt-buckle that you need to get into the next set of dungeons for the tier 4 belt-buckle.

What we have here is not that treadmill, its not the climb. What we have is a system with a standardized high tier, and a specialized tier that is slightly higher but in no way required (except for fractals lvl 30+, but tbh if your goal is to get there, then you have the gear from drops or means to get it with fractal tokens well before then). Once you have your exotic belt-buckle you dont need anything else to do anything else. But there is a nicer one there to get if you want to put in the time and effort.

Hawkian.6580:

Thus the concern is that GW2 will become that sort of game. While that might well sound like a legitimate concern, I haven’t seen anyone come close to explaining how it is that sort of game now, or what evidence there is that it will ever become that kind of game (let alone do so in the near-term).

Because there isn’t any.

Raine’s point rests on the concept of vertical progression, not its actual implementation.

The concept is that there’s a point where it becomes mandatory to grind gear to stay relevant to content. This is undeniable.

In practice however, that point could be a year or two from now, which would concern nobody but people who aren’t playing the game anyway.

I’d prefer the power curve rise slowly of the course of a year than the typical implementation of raising the bar every 3-5 months.

Due to the game mechanics, I think the power curve is negligible. If this was a dps spreadsheet rotation type game, I think Raine would have more of an argument.

I dont want ascended armors. i’m fine with ascended weapons and jewelry.

Wait until they add all the rest of Ascended in then you’ll see the power curve, its small now because we only have trinkets and backs…

Can’t wait till Armor and Weapons get dropped on us, will they take two years to get and another legendary grind..

The game was fine before all this was added and the community was less divided..

Dante.1508:

Wait until they add all the rest of Ascended in then you’ll see the power curve, its small now because we only have trinkets and backs…

Can’t wait till Armor and Weapons get dropped on us, will they take two years to get and another legendary grind..

The game was fine before all this was added and the community was less divided..

Time will tell, I guess. I flatly reject the notion that there’s ever going to be a point where you need best-in-slot items, or even 80 exotics in every slot, to participate in the game’s highest echelon of content. But you may be right, I just don’t think there’s any evidence that you are yet- literally none.

All that’s happened regarding the acquisiton of ascended gear since it was added to the game is that it’s become easier to get over time (more methods added, existing methods made easier). I hope you can admit that.

Hawkian.6580:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes. good luck completely gearing (which includes amulets) two chars in two weeks

You can “completely gear” two characters in about 15 minutes.

The circular path that these discussions follow always strikes me as so peculiar, because they all seem to boil down to the idea that “gearing up” your character means “obtaining a best-in-slot item for every slot.” Why? Is it other games that reinforced the idea that this was necessary? It wasn’t something that I considered particularly important even before Ascended gear was added. First of all, it’s not really cost effective! Lots of level 80 exotic pieces are outrageously overpriced on the TP considering the diminishing returns on stacking stats.

…what diminishing return on stacking stats? Most of them are pretty much linear, and of course some stat combos (power, prec, crit dam) ale multiplicative.

Astralporing.1957:

what diminishing return on stacking stats? Most of them are pretty much linear, and of course some stat combos (power, prec, crit dam) ale multiplicative.

Armor (defense rating) itself, first of all. (Am I wrong to assume that most of the hysteria comes from people thinking the base armor stat increase of Ascended armor would be the most significant boost?)

Adding 100 armor for:
•a soldier with 2127 armor gives 4.49% damage reduction
•an adventurer with 1980 armor gives 4.81% damage reduction
•a scholar with 1836 armor gives 5.17% damage reduction

Since toughness is a linear increase in armor, of course it also applies to this:

Converting damage reduction to equivalent toughness gain-
The conversion will be done assuming a 2600-armor character. The formula is A*R/(1-R).
50% = 2600 toughness
33% = 1300 toughness (Protection)
25% = 867 toughness
20% = 650 toughness
15% = 459 toughness (Signet of Judgement with perfect insriptions)
10% = 289 toughness (Signet of Judgement)
5% = 137 toughness

While simple critical chance is plainly additive, precision influences your critical chance such that diminishing returns also apply while leveling:

Critical Chance = Round((precision – 831.36) / 21.16)
At higher character levels, it takes an increased amount of precision to add 1% to the chance of hitting critically (since the formula depends on the square of one’s level):

3.16 points at L20
7.24 points at L40
13.24 points at L60
21 points at L80

So in this case precision is sort of more valuable versus straight +Critical Chance the lower level you are.

Edit: I should have clarified…

Critical Chance is a max of 100% no matter how you get there, so once you get to 80%, the Fury boon causes each additional point of Critical Chance through precision to be erased in practical terms. And getting that high through stats alone means you’ll be sacrificing a lot of other areas including power. Essentially once you get to the point where fury would put you at or over 75% critical chance, it’s typically not that worthwhile to keep stacking precision, unless you aren’t using fury (and you should be if you’re going for high crit).

I really don’t see the point in gear progression when you can have perfectly fine statistical resistance progression via titles. It was in GW1 and it would have been recieved with a lot less resistance.

If they HAD to add additional stats, they could have just added an additional MF, AR, or gold% to the gear. That would have made them desirable without the nasty effect of adding more damage or utility.

As long as this is the final tier and all I have to worry about are level increases, I’m fine because they did state that it was to bridge the gap between legendary tier and exotics. However, if they add another tier AND raise the level cap, then I’m out.

Hawkian.6580:

Am I wrong to assume that most of the hysteria comes from people thinking the base armor stat increase of Ascended armor would be the most significant boost?

Yes you are. A full set of ascended gear in power/prec/critdmg is going to yield approximately 20-30% higher damage output, compared to full exotics hitting the same target. because there is interaction between power, precision & critdamage. Raising all of these by 10% each will result in a damage disparity that is significantly >10%.
That is unquestionnably significant, it has only partially happened by now but the trend will obviously continue.

Also, you are showing some unrelated info there. Nobody cares about the value of stats at low level, and not everyone can be using fury all the time in every build, actually, only warriors can. You will have a hard time hitting the cap unbuffed without sigil stacks, fury or precision stacks even with ascended gear, so that is irrelevant as well.

Furthermore, you never sacrifice power for anything in a damage build, it is always power primary, precision & critdmg secondary.

I don’t know how you can possibly know what the percentage increase in damage output of an Ascended set will be when not a single piece of Ascended armor has been released yes, but fair enough. I figured people were thinking more along the lines of a gear check, “you must have this armor to continue” ordeal, rather than a “well now you can’t continue unless you can do more damage more quickly if you’re specced for it” scenario. My mistake.

It’s important that precision is more valuable at early levels than later levels because that’s a form of diminishing returns on a base stat but feel free to disregard that. You are right that you’ll have a hard time hitting the cap unbuffed and you shouldn’t try because that means neglecting other stats; you probably should be using sigil of accuracy if you need it, and what you said is exactly right about power being more valuable to stack than precision for pure damage. Obviously that means going for precision primary (stacking precision over power) is not advisable for pure damage.

Despite wading knee-deep into mix-maxing minutiae, my overarching point has still not been addressed: there’s no evidence that best-in-slot gear is or will become a limiting factor in this game; “required to continue playing,” to use the phrase originally provided.

Astralporing.1957:

Jski.6180:

aliksyian.7642:

I think you’re missing the point.

Can you answer “if 55 points isn’t important, why have it at all?”

For fractal and its a non gold cost item its a time cost item. If any thing Ascended items should be hosted up to show this game is not a p2w as some ppl love to call it.
Now i am not saying ppl who do not like Ascended items want to get to be p2w but i am not comply sure after reading ppl post.

Somehow, i get the feeling that you are answering a different question that was asked. I’m not even sure what question you tried to answer at all.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Quick Mouse.7635:

It took me just over two weeks of just doing the dailies with my two characters to gear them completely.

plasmacutter.2709:

cough this is not true at all

Dailies are now account wide, and laurels are account wide.

This means that you are perma-blocked, and the more toons you have, the worse off you are.

daily ACHIEVEMENTS have always been account bound.
daily FRACTALS have always been character bound.

Yes. good luck completely gearing (which includes amulets) two chars in two weeks

Just my quote.
I am stepping back and looking at the big meaning of this argument. Its far more then just items its about the game it self. I am in favor of the game so i will trust the makers to do what the game needs.
From a very negative thinking point of view the game is this way (it was “nearly” p2w when it came out but ascended items removed that “nearness” but ascended items have become some what of a one step treadmill). This is what we have to deal with when we prove our points of view. So from my argument i am for a one step treadmill from your argument your for the “nearly” p2w.

Jski.6180:

Astralporing.1957:

Jski.6180:

aliksyian.7642:

I think you’re missing the point.

Can you answer “if 55 points isn’t important, why have it at all?”

For fractal and its a non gold cost item its a time cost item. If any thing Ascended items should be hosted up to show this game is not a p2w as some ppl love to call it.
Now i am not saying ppl who do not like Ascended items want to get to be p2w but i am not comply sure after reading ppl post.

Somehow, i get the feeling that you are answering a different question that was asked. I’m not even sure what question you tried to answer at all.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Quick Mouse.7635:

It took me just over two weeks of just doing the dailies with my two characters to gear them completely.

plasmacutter.2709:

cough this is not true at all

Dailies are now account wide, and laurels are account wide.

This means that you are perma-blocked, and the more toons you have, the worse off you are.

daily ACHIEVEMENTS have always been account bound.
daily FRACTALS have always been character bound.

Yes. good luck completely gearing (which includes amulets) two chars in two weeks

Just my quote.
I am stepping back and looking at the big meaning of this argument. Its far more then just items its about the game it self. I am in favor of the game so i will trust the makers to do what the game needs.
From a very negative thinking point of view the game is this way (it was “nearly” p2w when it came out but ascended items removed that “nearness” but ascended items have become some what of a one step treadmill). This is what we have to deal with when we prove our points of view. So from my argument i am for a one step treadmill from your argument your for the “nearly” p2w.

“Nearly”, in this situation, is synonymous with “not even remotely close to”. Before, the closest to P2W you had was spending RL money → gems → gold → buying a select set of exotic armor. That select set had stat selections that were ideal for very few people, and more often than not got ignored for the far superior Karma purchasable pieces.

Now, in terms of the “1 step treadmill”… the problem isn’t the 1 step they added. I will say this: if they announced tomorrow that level 80 is the max level cap forever, I’d become 100% ok with ascended gear. Completely. Return to GW2 and play with endless ferver. The problem is that this isn’t the case. Rather, instead of having a game where we hit BiS early and then get a year or two break between leveling and gear grinding to actually do things other than the tired and archaic WoW model of “grinding for gear to waste time”, we will instead get to spend the next year slowly grinding out a full ascended set. It’s taken them 2 months per 1-2 items, so it’s safe to say that if this pace keeps up, we won’t see the end of the release until late 2013 at BEST.

But what about the expansion? Even if they wait 2 years to release that expansion, that would only give us a few months after the last piece of ascended gear before we get our new XPac… which they have already announced they plan to add a level cap increase with. Suddenly that “1 step treadmill” gets a lot more steps added, since all that ascended gear you grind grinded out will become worthless, and you get to start the whole gear grind over again.

And then what? Do we repeat this infinitely until they quit releasing xpacs? Grind grind grind for gear until the xpac, lose all that gear, start over and grind grind grind for gear? That sounds an awful lot like a… treadmill!

Folks say “ohhh its a conspiracy theory! CONSPIRACY!!!!1!!!!ONE!!!!1” Really? What part is a conspiracy? Is it a conspiracy that they added ascended gear? Hrm… no? No. Is it a conspiracy that it is taking them 2 months per release of 1-2 items and most folks (not talking about hardcore content locusts who play the game 8 hours a day) have been spending a large portion of that grinding out the ascended gear? Hrm? No? Didn’t think so.

Oh, well it must be a conspiracy that the level cap is raising! That must be what you’re talking about! Oh wait… http://www.gamefront.com/guild-wars-2-level-cap-raise-confirmed-for-future/ Well there goes that idea, then.

So… what’s the conspiracy again? Oh right, there isn’t one. Someone just heard that word used once on forums and started parroting it ever since… possibly without even looking up the word’s definition beforehand. Mildly embarrassing, but understandable.

Let me get myself clear 1st, I don’t like gear grinding. But ascended gear is easy enough to get (for now) I don’t really care. And imo, gear isn’t all that important in GW2. Sure I can feel the different between green and exotic but rare/exotic isn’t that much different in real combat feeling. I also can’t think of ANY content that must be done in exotic let alone ascended (agony aside). So I’m fine with ascended gear.

Afya.5842:

Let me get myself clear 1st, I don’t like gear grinding. But ascended gear is easy enough to get (for now) I don’t really care. And imo, gear isn’t all that important in GW2. Sure I can feel the different between green and exotic but rare/exotic isn’t that much different in real combat feeling. I also can’t think of ANY content that must be done in exotic let alone ascended (agony aside). So I’m fine with ascended gear.

Ah, I should have added this to my previous post- besides knowing the level cap would never increase, the only other thing that would make me 100% ok with ascended gear would be its removal from WvW. I really thought games had moved past allowing PvE grinders an advantage in PvP. I’d like to see GW2 catch up with the times.

@Tolmos
(Its getting way too long to full quote)

So what dose something that could have years later on have effect on how you play now? If your not getting any fun out of the game now you should not be playing it if you are getting fun out of the game then you should be playing it for the now not the what is to come if your that much of a fearful person.
Your right the words are missed used a lot ppl love the buzz words i even posted that if you chaired to read what else i posted but that was not quoted and i am not about to self quote. But i must say your guilty of using a buzz word wrong too the “grind” you make out that doing something in a game once a day is a grind witch is not its playing a video game. Your point of view on grind would make every thing and every game a grind fest (o god will i guess i got to eat today why is life such a grind?!) A grind in a game mainly talks about getting exp to level up gold and gear are some what part of this idea but not the full idea. This game “grind” is mostly for looks and is often gimped due to the ONCE A DAY event of it.

BTW
Posted on November 27, 2012, CJ Miozzi
Its painful out dated info and not of any use to the argument at hand.
Ontop of that its from an even older comment back when this game was going to be a true action game before they found out that they could not pull it off. Please look into this more before you just Google something as a point of view in an argument.

Jski.6180:

@Tolmos
(Its getting way too long to full quote)

So what dose something that could have years later on have effect on how you play now? If your not getting any fun out of the game now you should not be playing it if you are getting fun out of the game then you should be playing it for the now not the what is to come if your that much of a fearful person.
Your right the words are missed used a lot ppl love the buzz words i even posted that if you chaired to read what else i posted but that was not quoted and i am not about to self quote. But i must say your guilty of using a buzz word wrong too the “grind” you make out that doing something in a game once a day is a grind witch is not its playing a video game. Your point of view on grind would make every thing and every game a grind fest (o god will i guess i got to eat today why is life such a grind?!) A grind in a game mainly talks about getting exp to level up gold and gear are some what part of this idea but not the full idea. This game “grind” is mostly for looks and is often gimped due to the ONCE A DAY event of it.

I’m guessing from your grammar that English isn’t your primary language. It took some effort to read your post, but I think I have most of it down now. Forgive me if I misunderstood something, though- I tried my best.

The “grind” DOES exist- having to run the same instance over and over and over and over and over and over, or do the same event/quest over and over and over and over can’t really be considered many other things BESIDES a grind. Considering that prior to Nov 15th the point of endgame was to explore, collect COSMETIC items, help do dynamic world events and complete the story of the game. Now it’s to stand around in Lions Arch screaming “LFG LFG LFG”, followed by running the same instance repeatedly for the foreseeable future.

And it not affecting me for years? It’s affecting me NOW. I will affect me even more later in the year as more ascended gear items get released, and the stat gap between someone in exotics and someone in ascended gear slowly increases further. This isn’t just a grind for cosmetics- it’s a grind for the current BiS gear in the game!

That, to me, is a grind.

Jski.6180:

BTW
Posted on November 27, 2012, CJ Miozzi
Its painful out dated info and not of any use to the argument at hand.
Ontop of that its from an even older comment back when this game was going to be a true action game before they found out that they could not pull it off. Please look into this more before you just Google something as a point of view in an argument.

I’m sorry… what? a 3 month old post is now considered “painful out dated info”? But I won’t argue with you much here because, while I disagree, on this particular item I want you to be right. If you can present me ANY information that disagrees with this article, or the information presented in the article, I’ll be completely happy. But for right now, this is the stated word of Arenanet on the matter. And sure, sure… as my signature points out, Anet’s word is worth absolutely nothing, but atm I have absolutely no reason to doubt the validity of their claim that they plan to raise the expansion.

aliksyian.7642:

Chances are the people who stuck around on the forums are the people who like gear progression and endlessly increasing numbers, so I kind of expect a lot of “go home noob” and “do you want gear just handed to you!?!??” (yes).

I actually hate infinite stat progression, and didn’t like the stat increases, but I have to admit the way Anet implemented Ascended isn’t so bad.
They made ways to get it outside fractals and soon ways to get it with WvW, probably even more ways later.
Plus, after getting my Ascended set I guarantee you it doesn’t really make a factor in pvp.
The only thing that will matter will be weapons due to damage range being a larger factor in the direct damage formula.

But if you quit GW2 over this I wonder where did you go.
Other MMOs offer far, far worse formulas and are made with obsolete, childish mechanics.
I could never go back to play games with pidgeon-holing after I’ve been let be a tank, healer and DPS on the same char and at the same time.
I could never give up dodging/blocking with my real skills rather than it being a RNG calculation.
I could never look at a tank spamming the aggro rotation and gather all mobs while a healer refills him and not feel like that is ridiculous.
Let alone monthly fees, haha.
If I was to quit GW2 I think I’d stick to single players for a long, long time, because before we see a MMO with half the goodness of GW2 it’ll be years.

If the price to pay was a tier between exotics and legendaries then be it.

Tolmos.8395:

Jski.6180:

@Tolmos
(Its getting way too long to full quote)

So what dose something that could have years later on have effect on how you play now? If your not getting any fun out of the game now you should not be playing it if you are getting fun out of the game then you should be playing it for the now not the what is to come if your that much of a fearful person.
Your right the words are missed used a lot ppl love the buzz words i even posted that if you chaired to read what else i posted but that was not quoted and i am not about to self quote. But i must say your guilty of using a buzz word wrong too the “grind” you make out that doing something in a game once a day is a grind witch is not its playing a video game. Your point of view on grind would make every thing and every game a grind fest (o god will i guess i got to eat today why is life such a grind?!) A grind in a game mainly talks about getting exp to level up gold and gear are some what part of this idea but not the full idea. This game “grind” is mostly for looks and is often gimped due to the ONCE A DAY event of it.

I’m guessing from your grammar that English isn’t your primary language. It took some effort to read your post, but I think I have most of it down now. Forgive me if I misunderstood something, though- I tried my best.

The “grind” DOES exist- having to run the same instance over and over and over and over and over and over, or do the same event/quest over and over and over and over can’t really be considered many other things BESIDES a grind. Considering that prior to Nov 15th the point of endgame was to explore, collect COSMETIC items, help do dynamic world events and complete the story of the game. Now it’s to stand around in Lions Arch screaming “LFG LFG LFG”, followed by running the same instance repeatedly for the foreseeable future.

And it not affecting me for years? It’s affecting me NOW. I will affect me even more later in the year as more ascended gear items get released, and the stat gap between someone in exotics and someone in ascended gear slowly increases further. This isn’t just a grind for cosmetics- it’s a grind for the current BiS gear in the game!

That, to me, is a grind.

Jski.6180:

BTW
Posted on November 27, 2012, CJ Miozzi
Its painful out dated info and not of any use to the argument at hand.
Ontop of that its from an even older comment back when this game was going to be a true action game before they found out that they could not pull it off. Please look into this more before you just Google something as a point of view in an argument.

I’m sorry… what? a 3 month old post is now considered “painful out dated info”? But I won’t argue with you much here because, while I disagree, on this particular item I want you to be right. If you can present me ANY information that disagrees with this article, or the information presented in the article, I’ll be completely happy. But for right now, this is the stated word of Arenanet on the matter. And sure, sure… as my signature points out, Anet’s word is worth absolutely nothing, but atm I have absolutely no reason to doubt the validity of their claim that they plan to raise the expansion.

Ok i will try to take on each point at a time.
First ya my spelling is very bad i have to use simple words or spend a lot of time looking them up. English is my first sadly i am still bad at spelling such is more that i like to talk about.
See that not what i call a true grind if you could get 60 tokens every time you run the same path that would be more of a grind it would be a fast one at that but there a daily like system for each path making you only want to run each path once a day making it more into a daily event for the person playing gw2. I find this true for most things in gw2.
Well how has it effected you? Do ppl say Ascended in non fractal or “gtfo?” Even in wvw it may seem like Ascended items put you beyond others but wvw is not about the one person its about the group command. Ascended items are not in sPvP where solo play is more of a difference maker in an over all win lost of something. So i am not sure why it getting to you.
I guess i though it was off the older video of them saying this that was from 1 or 2 years ago sry for the confusion. I am going to stay positive on these things there no reason to stress your self out over things to come in a game as long as your enjoying it now.
I look at it this way if they have a miss step i can see them seeing a tangible back lash (random ppl coming on the forms is not going to changes much) they will fix what is needed. Look at GW1 when it first came out there was nothing to do and ppl where calling its death but after a few years GW1 become a great game. Why cant this be true for GW2?

Hawkian.6580:

You can “completely gear” two characters in about 15 minutes.

Blatantly false statement is blatantly false. I can’t believe no one called you on this yet, but I’m going to go right ahead and do it.

Ascended amulets are only accessible via the laurel system, and cost 30 laurels. At best, you could earn 11 in a single day (one daily + one monthly), since achievements are account bound. Ergo, your claim is completely impossible. At best, you can get one amulet in about three weeks of dedicated daily play right now.

I know that you were exaggerating for the sake of brevity, but exaggeration to the point where your statement is easily proven false doesn’t make you look like you know what you’re talking about.

Hawkian.6580:

I don’t know how you can possibly know what the percentage increase in damage output of an Ascended set will be when not a single piece of Ascended armor has been released yes, but fair enough.

It’s relatively easy to calculate the overall gains from Ascended equipment.

The developers have stated that every piece of Ascended gear would be between 5% and 10% stronger, statistically, than its Exotic counterpart. Ergo, you multiply existing Exotic gear by 1.05, then re-calculate your average damage, armor, etc and see where they end up.

A mere 5% boost yields about 13% more damage on Berserker builds. If it’s as high as 10%, then it’s even worse. And keep in mind that even though this is a Berserker-type build, you still get 5-10% better armor, too (and obviously you get even more if you go for a tank setup instead of Berserker).

So the difference is more certainly not a slight difference as the devs have led you to believe.

The argument then becomes “well, is the grind significant enough that it’ll become a problem” and the answer is….hard to say right now, because we don’t have efficient examples of what armor will look like. However, if the amulets and rings are going to cost 30-35 laurels, it seems reasonable that actual armor pieces will be at least double, if not triple that. I’d personally be rather shocked if the armor pieces were any less than 100 per item….in which case you’re now investing more than 3 months of work into just one piece of armor for one character.

By the time you get all of that gear (about 2-3 years later), you can bet that they’ll have raised the level cap and/or introduced a new tier of gear by then. Notice the careful wording in Colin’s last public statement on the subject: “we won’t introduce a new tier of gear this year” doesn’t mean “we won’t introduce a new tier of gear ever again”. By 2014, most players won’t even be remotely close to a full loadout of Ascended gear (save for the most hardcore players), which will make it the perfect time to introduce MORE gear.

All gear treadmills begin with a single step, and no one has a problem with that. It’s not the first step you need to fear, it’s the trend thereafter. The reason treadmills get started is because that first step is never enough to placate the hardcore crowd, so they take another soft step. And then another. And no one recognizes that they’re on the treadmill until long after it’s started.

I don’t like Ascended items because their introduction looks an awful lot like the first step. And knowing that the dev team does plan to increase the level cap AND also knowing that they believe in vertical progression (both of which they have stated publicly), I think it’s in my best interests and in the interests of every player in this forum that I express my dissatisfaction with what I see as the start of a future trend in which we all get to grind for tier after tier, year after year. You may not believe that this is a trend and that’s fine, but recognize that this isn’t all just “conspiracy theories”, it’s based on what the developers themselves have said.

Red Falcon.8257:

But if you quit GW2 over this I wonder where did you go.
Other MMOs offer far, far worse formulas and are made with obsolete, childish mechanics.
I could never go back to play games with pidgeon-holing after I’ve been let be a tank, healer and DPS on the same char and at the same time.
I could never give up dodging/blocking with my real skills rather than it being a RNG calculation.
I could never look at a tank spamming the aggro rotation and gather all mobs while a healer refills him and not feel like that is ridiculous.
Let alone monthly fees, haha.
If I was to quit GW2 I think I’d stick to single players for a long, long time, because before we see a MMO with half the goodness of GW2 it’ll be years.

If the price to pay was a tier between exotics and legendaries then be it.

I played a lot of the single player and co-op games I’d been neglecting. I tried some other MMOs and barely got 2 hours into them. It’s true, GW2 is the best MMO there is. That’s why I really don’t want to see GW2 follow after MMOs I detest.

I somehow missed the announcement that they were going to raise the level cap. Wow. That’s really discouraging. I mean, assuming the new cap means new gear, that’s many many times worse than new ascended gear. Wow. Just… did they even play Guild Wars 1?

aliksyian.7642:

Wow. Just… did they even play Guild Wars 1?

The current Dev team (which seems to be different one from the people that made GW) clearly dislikes GW game model, going as far as stating dissatisfaction at GW core mechanics (like steady and easily achievable level and eq cap).