Guild Wars 2

I have been reading some interesting threads on here relating to end game etc. I think we as mmo gamers EXPECT to be rewarded in some way for doing all these activities in game. Otherwise, what is the point of doing them? It is ironic how being too heavily rewarded for something you already enjoy doing can actually cause you to be less motivated and less rewarded.

I think we have been trained to expect this beast called ‘end game’ to be about tackling harder challenges, scoring more points, reaching higher levels, etc. That carrot on the stick scenario. With that we run the risk of being too focused on the gratification of positive feedback, and we lose the ability to enjoy an activity for its own sake.

What do you all think?

Its not necessarily about being rewarded its about having goals and objectives.

I remember camping spots for days in Everquest, sometimes only to walk away with nothing.

You’ve ruined your own lands, you’ll not ruin mine!

well, there would be a point if the challenge is difficult or ranked or you get a “score”.

but gw2 is faceroll thus i guess its a goo game for farmers.

only the fotm is some kind of ranked content.

(not talking about pvp wvw)

I may be biased because I play sPvP and WvW a lot. Therefore, my content is always there and rewarding since I am always battling new players etc. Besides FOTM, I can see PvE goals and motivation lacking. Would a GW1 challenge mission be a good thing to add? Something that has a leaderboard and is all about who can have the best time/score?

There has to be some risk vs the reward or the reward feels empty. You’d think this was not true by the complaints you see but even those who wanted everything handed to them would find themselves bored real quick if they were given the best gear when they turned 80.

It’s a lot like using cheats on offline games – I can max characters stats out and give them the best items at the start of the game. It’s fun for a bit to one shot your way through a game but it wears off very quick.

morrolan.9608:

Its not necessarily about being rewarded its about having goals and objectives.

Many MMO players seem to have forgotten that there are other goals than PHAT LOOTZ!

Are MMO Gamers Too Heavily Rewarded?

No.

vs single player RPG’s it’s in the same ball park.

vs an ARPG, MMO’s are restrictive.

I still wouldn’t mind a 3rd person ARPG that was a lot like a mmo, but played like a ARPG. There are a couple out there, but they have balancing issues, need a AAA effort. I thought GW1 would be that, but when they went the direction they did with loot, that is like the total opposite of an ARPG.

Joey.3928:

I think we have been trained to expect this beast called ‘end game’ to be about tackling harder challenges, scoring more points, reaching higher levels, etc.

Leveling has run it’s course, and there are plenty of other progression systems in MMOs today to fill it’s place.

By it’s definition, “end-game” is merely MMO content without the classical leveling process.

Sadly, GW2 makes absolutely no effort to achieve this. That claim about the whole game being endgame was just some marketing fluff. Whoever said it is probably laughing at the community at the moment.

Joey.3928:

and we lose the ability to enjoy an activity for its own sake.

There are other gaming genres which do this so much better. What you’re looking for would be hyper-niche, so unless you plan on funding it yourself you can keep dreaming.

Naqaj.6219:

Many MMO players seem to have forgotten that there are other goals than PHAT LOOTZ!

No, not really. But there are many ways to offer PHAT LOOTZ! besides the same tired ideas most MMOs rely on.

Naqaj.6219:

morrolan.9608:

Its not necessarily about being rewarded its about having goals and objectives.

Many MMO players seem to have forgotten that there are other goals than PHAT LOOTZ!

There are?

I think the issue is that people expect to play MMOs as a daily or several times a week thing for years, unlike a SP game where people play until they are done, maybe play through again, and then put it down, feeling satisfied. The expectations for an MMO are different.

To me, GW2 plays much like a SP game, and it’s priced that way, too. To me that makes sense, and I enjoyed playing through earlier in the fall. I didn’t stick around for months and months, but I didn’t expect to, either — I expected to pop back now and again for this or that, but not play it like the traditional MMO.

Joey.3928:

Would a GW1 challenge mission be a good thing to add? Something that has a leaderboard and is all about who can have the best time/score?

This is something I’ve wanted for a while. Spent weeks in Glint’s Challenge to beat the quarterly best score…. was awesome to see the names of my team mates at the top of that list for 90 days solid. The fact that we got cloth of the brotherhood and destroyer cores along the way was bonus, but after ten runs, you didn’t care about the cloths and sold them….. we pushed hard, not because there was ‘sweet, sweet loot’ but because we were chasing an ever higher score.

I’m not sure if MMO gamers are too heavily rewarded but I have noticed a trend in games such as this where every bit of time spent doing something has to ensure some sort of reward. Far too often people seem to sacrifice the fun aspect of gaming with the reward aspect that one would expect more in real-life endeavours. Not to say people shouldn’t feel that there’s something to work towards as that creates a sense of fun in its own way (and I’m sort of guilty at times of this too, particulary in my later days of playing GW1), but there should also be a pursuit of fun as well to balance it out a bit or else people start forming a negative attitude as they play the game (I’m sure there are plenty of examples others can think of).

niea.7504:

I remember camping spots for days in Everquest, sometimes only to walk away with nothing.

You’ve ruined your own lands, you’ll not ruin mine!

Big difference in the argument though. You’re cursing RNG, but there’s still a carrot at the end of the stick.

From what I’ve seen, many people are complaining that they feel they’re expected to run despite the lack of a carrot. I’m not one of them, but such is the argument…

You can read articles in psychology journals about the what makes games addicting. Systematic rewards and guaranteed progress are two of the factors.

MMO games offer both of those, and a large base of players that are drawn to MMOs expect them. It’s the reason people keep playing games like this every day after they’ve lost their job — it makes them feel like they’re working toward something, and gives a sense of accomplishment.

It’s also the reason MMOs have grinding. It’s the only way to create a goal that anyone can accomplish given a long enough period of time.

Frank.7452:

You can read articles in psychology journals about the what makes games addicting. Systematic rewards and guaranteed progress are two of the factors.

MMO games offer both of those, and a large base of players that are drawn to MMOs expect them. It’s the reason people keep playing games like this every day after they’ve lost their job — it makes them feel like they’re working toward something, and gives a sense of accomplishment.

It’s also the reason MMOs have grinding. It’s the only way to create a goal that anyone can accomplish given a long enough period of time.

Such a shame that the RNG removes the rewards for many and makes progress difficult ( not enjoyable ).

Maybe there neds to be some random punishment as well.

For the top 100 grinders, randomly choose one and just delete everything and make them start over.

From what I’ve read, they want it so much and enjoy it so much they would love to have it happen to them. Make it so!

Cina Reas.6938:

Frank.7452:

You can read articles in psychology journals about the what makes games addicting. Systematic rewards and guaranteed progress are two of the factors.

MMO games offer both of those, and a large base of players that are drawn to MMOs expect them. It’s the reason people keep playing games like this every day after they’ve lost their job — it makes them feel like they’re working toward something, and gives a sense of accomplishment.

It’s also the reason MMOs have grinding. It’s the only way to create a goal that anyone can accomplish given a long enough period of time.

Such a shame that the RNG removes the rewards for many and makes progress difficult ( not enjoyable ).

The guaranteed progress would be things like gaining karma, achievements, dailies, monthlies, tokens, resources, skill points, and anything else that doesn’t come randomly. Random elements in other parts of the game won’t diminish any of those.

Random distribution of extremely rare things is also part of why the game is addicting. While the guaranteed progress is what makes you log on (better do my daily), the random element is what makes you keep playing (the next drop might be a precursor).

I’m not suggesting any of this is fun game design, but it’s certainly addicting game design, and it’s the definition of the genre.

Poledo.3256:

There has to be some risk vs the reward or the reward feels empty. You’d think this was not true by the complaints you see but even those who wanted everything handed to them would find themselves bored real quick if they were given the best gear when they turned 80.

The complaints over “grinding” have nothing to do with risk vs reward, there is no more risk in a piece of gear taking 30 days to get, rather than 15 days.

PVE in most MMOs these days is virtually entirely risk free, the only element of risk that most possess is some tiny financial penalty for dying (repair bill / waypoint cost, etc).

Hence it is also dull once you’ve done the content a couple of times, thus they provide rewards like you would to your pet dog, though you are right to mention risk, as long ago (and in a few games still) PvE was made exciting through actually having risk vs reward with things like public dungeons.

niea.7504:

I remember camping spots for days in Everquest, sometimes only to walk away with nothing.

You’ve ruined your own lands, you’ll not ruin mine!

I am totally with you. I loved EQ and the challenges it presented. Seems since WoW games just havent been the same (some like FF have been fun). I want to have to really earn it and I am a casual player so make that x10.

I think MMO players have been programmed not to play a game but to chase the achievement/prestige aspects of the game instead. In fact, it’s gotten to the point in some MMO’s where the story is largely irrelevant, world evolution is mostly ignored, and the perception of unbalanced classes/builds is the primary factor for players returning to or abandoning the game altogether.

It’s not about experiencing a developer’s vision and, in some small way, growing as a person by being introduced to new concepts and fresh perspectives. Now it’s all about dominating the game to the utmost; power-leveling, max-gearing, speed runs and the perfect raid composition.

I don’t blame the developers for giving players what they want, it’s a hard sell with their investors to provide a gaming experience that encourages players to use their imaginations versus the more tangible and obvious reward systems. Also, not everyone has the time or energy to do more than while away an hour or so and relax from a long day. Sometimes something that comes easy is just the thing they’re looking for.

That’s why I love RP servers. These are players that “get it.” They play an MMO not for the gear grind but because of the massive, open world full of wonderful details, out of the way places, interesting enemies and background lore that makes it all come together. There’s always new content, always things to do and places to see because you’re not chasing a new piece of equipment but a different perspective.

That’s why I love these Guild Wars games. I’m an explorer junkie and these games are my fix. There are thousands of things only a few people actually see because they’re off the beaten trail. Does anyone else know about the Dwarven Graves in Frostgorge Sound and what that magic charm is all about? Have you released the specter hiding in the Necromancer’s book in the Godslost Swamp? Not everything has an achievement attached to them, nor does the game hold your hand and point out all the interesting tidbits you’ll miss on the way to 80.

Sometimes, you need to make your own rewards rather than accept the meaningless ones that are handed to you.

Welcome to the Skinner Box.

I’m with you, TC. One of my favorite FPS’s of all time is Battlefield 1942. I played the game because the gameplay was fun. I had everything I needed unlocked the moment I installed the game onto my computer. I didn’t have to play for hours before I finally got access to the weapon I wanted to use; and I didn’t have to grind for hours more to unlock the attachments I wanted to use on that weapon. So I dove in and had a great time.

FPS’s these days have experience levels, and weapon unlocks, and weapon attachment unlocks, and weapon camouflage unlocks, and call sign unlocks. And when you’ve unlocked all there is to unlock you can Prestige, which unlocks yet more stuff by voluntarily giving up everything you’re already unlocked and starting over. And of course you have to have achievements to chase and leaderboards to climb. Lost in the pursuit of all this superfluous bull crap is the issue of whether or not you even enjoy the game for the gameplay.

I say I want a DUSK handed over to me for “nothing” because after 1450h AND farming for all the other stuff already in a not so pleasant way AND all this talk of “adjusting rewards system” while we actually got a piece of crap RNG box for 5 laurels AND all the DR that is affecting us more than the bots is starting to eclipse all the fun I had in 1000h out of those 1450 (and not because it’s hard or boring or requires waiting for a few more months, but because it keeps getting harder while the majority that already has theirs got it at a fraction of the effort and the SH in 4 months isn’t good enough).

I actually couldn’t care less if they removed all exotic and rare drops from EVERYWHERE as long as there were other ways to work your way towards what you want out of any/every item currently in the game with equal opportunity (from the different activities available) and no jumping thresholds set by the market for any item. Base all loot on XP (except dungeon armor which is fine) or even played time OR make every single thing you do in game give you RED souls and have EVERY item in game in 1 vendor at a fixed price (yes I’m ripping off Devil May Cry systems for a MMO).

and don’t tell me legendary isn’t for everyone or I shouldn’t have gone for it or I should quit if I don’t like it, it’s not what it was when I started, it has/is still going in the opposite direction of what we were promised months ago and it was never any good to begin with

niea.7504:

I remember camping spots for days in Everquest, sometimes only to walk away with nothing.

You’ve ruined your own lands, you’ll not ruin mine!

Camping in Everquest was an enjoyable experience. You would kill a creature and have tine in between respawns to do other things. You could socialize with your guild or group, you could grab a drink, you could tab down and check the net. The whole experience was leisurely and relaxing.

Todays modern MMOs require you to be an energy drink consuming crack fiend. You have to hit the right combination of 17 buttons for 45 minutes straight or you fail and have to start over. The whole experience is awful and I firmly believe that most players that do dungeons do not enjoy them and only do them for the perspective loot. Which is why rewards have become so important because these games can no longer sell players on an enjoyable experience.

Joey.3928:

I have been reading some interesting threads on here relating to end game etc. I think we as mmo gamers EXPECT to be rewarded in some way for doing all these activities in game. Otherwise, what is the point of doing them? It is ironic how being too heavily rewarded for something you already enjoy doing can actually cause you to be less motivated and less rewarded.

I think we have been trained to expect this beast called ‘end game’ to be about tackling harder challenges, scoring more points, reaching higher levels, etc. That carrot on the stick scenario. With that we run the risk of being too focused on the gratification of positive feedback, and we lose the ability to enjoy an activity for its own sake.

What do you all think?

There’s actually a lot of research that shows that when people are extrinsically rewarded for something (getting rewards from an outside source) their intrinsic motivation/rewards diminishes (e.g. because it’s fun isn’t good enough anymore).

So yes, it basically is what you say. Many gamers have got to the point that “because it’s fun” isn’t good enough anymore because they have been over-rewarded with things like loot.

Peetee.9406:

niea.7504:

I remember camping spots for days in Everquest, sometimes only to walk away with nothing.

You’ve ruined your own lands, you’ll not ruin mine!

Camping in Everquest was an enjoyable experience. You would kill a creature and have tine in between respawns to do other things. You could socialize with your guild or group, you could grab a drink, you could tab down and check the net. The whole experience was leisurely and relaxing.

Todays modern MMOs require you to be an energy drink consuming crack fiend. You have to hit the right combination of 17 buttons for 45 minutes straight or you fail and have to start over. The whole experience is awful and I firmly believe that most players that do dungeons do not enjoy them and only do them for the perspective loot. Which is why rewards have become so important because these games can no longer sell players on an enjoyable experience.

I have the DR bug.

I ran COE last night all 3 paths and enjoyed it immensely.

I got 2 blues from each chest and a stack of porous bones and whites from a couple of mobs.

Maybe we need like a leaderboards for dungeon runs. I kinda miss in gw1 where each instance had a special objective that you have to do (apart from the normal story mode or something).

What I think is that “MMO-Gamers” these days, or the whole MMO-community is spoiled and nag about every. single. kittening. thing. Which drags the game itself down. (Example; The whole “Anet broke their promise”-thing,…)

It’s frustrating to read most topics/threads anyway, so I mostly skim through them.
Then the question, does GW2 have enough endgame?

Almost everyone seems to think A-net should push a new update that mysteriously solves whatever problem they seem to have with the game. I’m not saying it’s perfect but, in GW2 you decide your own endgame, that being WvW/making a legendary/running dungeons etc.

I just want to be rewarded with decent crap for killing something like Lupicus with a PuG. You know. Something that isn’t a blue. Or a green.

RollingBob.8502:

Maybe there neds to be some random punishment as well.

For the top 100 grinders, randomly choose one and just delete everything and make them start over.

From what I’ve read, they want it so much and enjoy it so much they would love to have it happen to them. Make it so!

How would you define a grinder in such a way to exclude all of those who do not like to grind? So that those who do not like grinding do not get their things wiped.

Someone who might not like grinding might grind for a while if they feel the reward at the end is worth the grind. Such is the case for legendaries. Should that person have their things wiped because they’re grinning and bearing it for a legendary? And will cease to grind the exact moment they get their legendary?