Guild Wars 2

Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

Subscription MMOs have, over the years, used inflating gear rewards to keep players in the game, because progression is exciting. There’s no denying that, I think everyone likes seeing their character get stronger.

However, I think in recent years we’ve come to a point where we see a growing number of people who play solely for the purpose of seeing their progression. Once they have the strongest gear with the prettiest text color or whatever, many of them simply stop playing until there’s even stronger gear to progress towards again. We all know players like this.

I question if these players even like the game they play as opposed to the feeling of getting something newer and shinier.

And why I bring this question up, is because I also question whether or not this kind of player is worth attempting to retain in the GW2 community as they are.

I would hate to see hard work on the part of the developer go into content that only a small fraction of the community will do, and even then only for about a week until they’ve progressed past it and go back to complaining.

To answer my own question in the title bar, I think the modern MMO player is trained to play games they don’t enjoy as long as there’s progression. So here’s another question: how do either the developers—or us as a community—break players of this mindset, and remind them that, well, gameplay can actually be enjoyed on its own? That exploring and playing the game IS doing content, even if there’s no gear progression? How do we make these players get it about Guild Wars 2?

Or can we at all?

I think more of those types of players need to be shown that the only reason there is an advancement and progression model is so you keep subscribing every month. Not unlike a crack dealer.

I don’t think you’ll get many/any constructive replies to this post. It will turn into the same endless debate as all these topics.

But I have to admit I’m leaning towards agreeing with you. Before this I played mostly single-player RPGs and the attitude from some people – that the game must be almost/entirely about gear progression has really surprised me. In the games I’m used to the focus is on playing through the storyline and gear progression is one of several mechanics that helps you along but could never be considered a goal in it’s own right. Based on this forum I feel like I’m getting a lot more out of this game by coming into it with that attitude.

Some people need rewards to have fun. Some people think having fun is a reward in itself. I am part of the latter group, and to anyone who would argue to me that a game needs a reward system in order to be fun, I would simply ask them if they would play a game where the main objective is to stare at a wall: The longer they stare at it the more powerful and outstanding rewards will be given to the player. I’ve pretty much given you a successful formula for an MMO by their standards, how many of you would like to play it?

ituhata.6830:

how many of you would like to play it?

Since it reminds me of the last 2 hours of my day at work, my answer would be no.

I think it’s more complex.

As MMOs became more like games and less like virtual worlds (happened gradually, but the main event in the transition was WoW), they became more about a gaming experience and less like a world to be “lived in” virtually. This also paralleled a broader development in the internet away from making friends with strangers and towards using the internet to socialize with real life friends. Both of these made the PvE side of MMOs into more of a game, and the significant aspect of that is that (PvE) games exist “to be beat”(en) (sic). MMOs are said to be “open ended”, but the gamey ones (which is most since 2004) are much less so, and can be said to have “been beat” once the player’s progression has stopped — normally this is when the gear treadmill runs dry. Sure, some people roll alts and so on (just like some people replay single player games or play New Game Plus or something), but many people quit or take long breaks until there is “more content to beat”. And, in light of this, it’s true what Tradewind says that some MMOs are designed to be purposefully “slow to beat” so that subscription fees can remain flowing — that’s only natural.

PvP games are not like that. FPSs, MOBAs, etc. These games people play all the time for the experience and not “to beat the game”. But most MMOs are not games that revolve around PvP. EVE is an exception to that, pre-Tram UO was another one, DAoC to a lesser degree (huge grind to level in that game before endgame RvR), WAR as well (although badly designed in many ways). But most of the MMOs that have substantial PvP elements (even WoW itself) are still colored by the PvE-oriented gear progression system because, again, they want people to keep playing the game, and PvP people generally don’t like to pay for online PvP games (neither the main FPSs nor the main MOBAs require it).

So, yes, there are plenty of MMO players now who want progression and if there isn’t any progression the game is over (that is, when they reach the end of progression, the game has been “beat”, if only until new content comes to provide more progression). WoW has had the biggest impact here within the MMO genre, but really was just the main event in a broader transition of MMOs away from being endless virtual worlds towards being more online games.

GW2 is in many ways like a SP game. Economically it’s virtually identical to a SP game with a DLC shop. In terms of game design, it’s one where the PvE side can be “beat” in a reasonable period of time … much longer than the typical SP game, but still nothing like a traditional MMO. The PvP side has more longevity, of course, and that’s why it was really intended to be the one aspect that would keep people playing (other than periodic PvE content updates) between expansions. But in many ways it is like a SP game designed in a massively multiplayer space and style. The disconnect comes from people seeing “MMO” and thinking that it is designed like an MMO where you are expected to take months to beat the content due to design — this one isn’t designed that way (different business model), and so people are beating the game on a schedule that is much shorter and more like a SP game, and that is rankling people.

I think to some degree all humans are conditioned like that.

The progression focused player base is not worth retaining, at least for this game.

GW2 is a one time purchase, to expect it to have regularly added progression after initial purchase is ridiculous.

knightblaster.8027:

I think it’s more complex.

I agree with most of what you say. The best point you make is to look at GW2 like a non-MMO. You pay the 60 bucks, beat it in a few dozen hours, then you can either go for 100% completion, play multiplayer (PvP), or replay the game (alt). Or you can put it down and play something else like you would any other game when you’re bored of it.

That’s still an amazing amount of content for 60 bucks. So I dunno. People definitely are looking at GW2 with the wrong perspective, but I dunno what fixes it, and my big concern is that the devs will eventually cave and make this a progression game. I hope not, but it’s a concern.

CJAncients.6907:

The progression focused player base is not worth retaining, at least for this game.

GW2 is a one time purchase, to expect it to have regularly added progression after initial purchase is ridiculous.

Except for that one-time price you’re going to get free content updates for the life of the game.

No idea.
But I’m having a blast.
Cool story, cool events, just need to /map to get more people ~^

Corian.4068:

Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

Subscription MMOs have, over the years, used inflating gear rewards to keep players in the game, because progression is exciting. There’s no denying that, I think everyone likes seeing their character get stronger.

However, I think in recent years we’ve come to a point where we see a growing number of people who play solely for the purpose of seeing their progression. Once they have the strongest gear with the prettiest text color or whatever, many of them simply stop playing until there’s even stronger gear to progress towards again. We all know players like this.

I question if these players even like the game they play as opposed to the feeling of getting something newer and shinier.

And why I bring this question up, is because I also question whether or not this kind of player is worth attempting to retain in the GW2 community as they are.

I would hate to see hard work on the part of the developer go into content that only a small fraction of the community will do, and even then only for about a week until they’ve progressed past it and go back to complaining.

To answer my own question in the title bar, I think the modern MMO player is trained to play games they don’t enjoy as long as there’s progression. So here’s another question: how do either the developers—or us as a community—break players of this mindset, and remind them that, well, gameplay can actually be enjoyed on its own? That exploring and playing the game IS doing content, even if there’s no gear progression? How do we make these players get it about Guild Wars 2?

Or can we at all?

Progression =/= Gear

Yes, MMO players want progression, humans in general want progression whether it’s transparent or not.

More like human nature

D3 is the total abobination of that concept.

i know a guy who is clocking 1000h since release.

that means how many runs of act 3 ? to “hope” for a drop.

thats almost sick…

I think I’ve been saying this before GW2 was even officially released – GW2 is more like Skyrim than WoW.

This is going to make GW2 appeal to a different crowd than a “standard MMO” – and that’s okay. The “MMO players” need to realise that this game not appealing necessarily to them is not a fault, it’s a good game for a different market.

This isn’t to bash the standard MMO model. It’s just saying it’s different.

GW2 is for people who wanted to play Skyrim or whatever single-player RPG with friends. “Wow, wouldn’t it be cool if we could all be playing Skyrim at the same time ?” On an ironic note, it seems GW2 has accomplished that to a greater degree than the Elder Scrolls MMO is aiming to, but I won’t write that game off until there are more details.

It’s true that human beings like progression, but it isn’t true at all that this is ubiquitously sought in all human recreational activity. People play sports for fun, not really for progression. Sure, they may notice themselves improving over time and that’s a kind of progression, or they may be plateaued — but they still play, because they enjoy the activity in itself.

It seems that PvP is played more like this in most games (especially outside MMOs). People get a kick out of the activity itself, so they play it to have the fun that the activity gives them more than they do for progression.

PvE games are more oriented toward progression, because most PvE games (SP) have an end to them — you are progressing towards the end. In MMOs this is also the case, but it can be stretched out either a lot (oldskool MMOs with year or more of grinding to get to the end) or a moderate amount (say, WoW), or not much (say, GW2). But there is an “end” that people are progressing towards. That’s really the issue, I think.

I think that GW2 is the first MMO in a while that emphasizes the journey more than the destination.

Progression should be about achievement and developing skills, not increasing numbers. I think people are not used to this largely because of WoW and the standard it has created. The question I’d like to ask is, how many people would raid if there was no loot at all other than a vanity items like a pet or sparkle wand? I think there are people that would, but the numbers would dwindle significantly.

The fact is, MMO players love having gigantic, godly sets of armor with lightning bolts flying out of their nostrils non-stop and crushing entire beginner zones with a wave of their divine hand. I think it feeds the ego a little bit. This form of progression is rather blunt and obvious when compared to something more subtle, like improving communication or coordination.

I have to admit since playing GW2, I questioned myself on what I actually want from an MMO and what I previously enjoyed in MMO’s. It’s not so much the grind and the progression that I enjoy compared to GW2’s style.

It’s the enjoyment I have playing with like-minded players, I could care less if I get better armor/weapons or titles. That’s just a novelty in a way.

I’m not saying that I couldn’t just do something similar in GW2, but there is no incentive to bring people together, it’s also severely lacking in any social aspect to bring people together. Not once did I feel it necessary to group with someone or even talk with someone in this game from 1-80. It’s amazing really, for a game with such features like Dynamic events and large scale PVP, it feels really apathetic and not at all like a multiplayer experience.

If there was no gear progression already in guild wars 2 why is there dungeon currencies. If people are playing for fun and not making their players more powerful then arenanet should scrap the currency. But oh wait………… I guess they care more for the gear progression kittens.

Daniel.2743:

I have to admit since playing GW2, I questioned myself on what I actually want from an MMO and what I previously enjoyed in MMO’s. It’s not so much the grind and the progression that I enjoy compared to GW2’s style.

It’s the enjoyment I have playing with like-minded players, I could care less if I get better armor/weapons or titles. That’s just a novelty in a way.

I’m not saying that I couldn’t just do something similar in GW2, but there is no incentive to bring people together, it’s also severely lacking in any social aspect to bring people together. Not once did I feel it necessary to group with someone or even talk with someone in this game from 1-80. It’s amazing really, for a game with such features like Dynamic events and large scale PVP, it feels really apathetic and not at all like a multiplayer experience.

Right, but this is intentional design, I think, in light of the reality that MMOs have been becoming progressively less social (with strangers, I mean) over the last several years in general. I think to some degree this dovetails with the growth of the social networking internet, and the transition from the internet being a place where people primarily socialized with people they didn’t know in real life to being a place where people socialized primarily with people they already otherwise know. This has been the case in most MMOs since at least 2008. I remember when WAR was released and no-one was really talking or socializing — it was all taking place in guilds and on VOIPs and most of these were pre-existing the game launch, so not terribly open to outsiders (at least nothing at all like game guilds were in 2002, 2003, 2004 etc).

MMO designers have gone with the flow here and introduced game features that have allowed people to experience multiplayer content without having to socialize with strangers. Whether than comes in the form of LFD/LFR tools, or dynamic events, instanced insta-matched PvP and so on, it’s all about people getting their multiplayer on without having to socialize outside their pre-existing group, because increasingly this is how people have used the internet and how most people find more convenient to play (which is radically different from how these games were in, say, 2003).

^ When it comes to “playing with others”, I feel I do a lot more in GW2 than I did in WoW.

In WoW I didn’t really talk to anyone but maybe one in a while in guild chat. The zones were deserted. I was that guy who would clear a zone before moving on – and I cared about exploring them all. Thus, when I stopped playing WoW, I had been pretty much the only human being in Zangarmarsh for several days in a row. What a lovely map, made totally obsolete – I like down-leveling because although you have an advantage, it doesn’t feel like a total waste of time /grind to go back to lower-level areas.

In WoW dungeons, the “social interaction” amounted to people arguing and me generally not saying anything. It was fun – but for me it was fun in spite of the other people.

In WoW, there’s absolutely no reason to group with other people while levelling. And if you do see someone else on the map ? Better stay away because if you try to “help”, you’re just going to end up kill-stealing.

In GW2, I like just randomly helping people, knowing I can’t “kill steal”. I don’t officially group with people, usually, but plenty of times there will be a group of us going around and doing lots of objectives together.

I’m sure there are games that do “multiplayer” better, but for me this is a huge step-up from what I was previously playing in that regard. There’s stuff I miss from WoW, but I hope GW2 can add similar things as it becomes a more mature game (stuff like fishing, pet collecting – it adds a lot of value to a game to be able to have “dumb non-progressive stuff” to do).

GW1 is the main game I’ve played over the last few years, before that I played D2. I used to run Baal all day long just to see what dropped and then try to build a new armor. Without that I would have been so dam bored with Baal runs because you basically do the same thing over and over and over and over just trying to find a new shiny toy.

Then I played GW, I hit the max level and max gear real quick and still had an entire game ahead of me. I can tell you that completely changed how I want to play games. I would occasionally find a better skin and move to that but I started to play the game for a different reason than ‘oh look a shiny.’ I actually paid attention to the cut scenes and realized good games are like books with their story. Now I hate levels and I hate gear progression, if I could do away with it entirely I would.

I also went outside more, met a girl, and found that life outside is more rewarding than in front of my computer…

Jordan.6157:

If there was no gear progression already in guild wars 2 why is there dungeon currencies. If people are playing for fun and not making their players more powerful then arenanet should scrap the currency. But oh wait………… I guess they care more for the gear progression kittens.

This point keeps coming up. The difference between GW2’s gear progression and say WoW’s gear progression is GW2’s is mostly cosmetic. There are slightly better stats on legendaries, but not like WoW where it’s not uncommon for one of the first bosses in a new raid to be a gear check. In WoW you’ll go into a raid and one of the first bosses will have some sort of unavoidable mechanic where if some random player dies before the raid can rescue them then you probably need to go grind dungeons or the previous raid some more to get the gear.

In GW2, much like in GW1, you have really awesome gear designs if you want to grind for the look of the armor, but they aren’t required to experience all the content. With WoW gear is the one and only means to an end, where as with GW2 gear is a possible extended end if one wants to go for it with the actual end being the end of your personal story and having completed the story dungeons.

I think its more like…Players started playing mmo’s because thats the kind of games they are/were.

Even offline final fantasy games were part for the story and part character progression and rewards.

I totally agree with this assessment. People are so obsessed with getting better gear and becoming more powerful that they are not happy unless they continue to get better or stronger. I play online games to play with other people and to get to know them and have fun. I love single player games but was always sad when I beat them and that was that all that work and now its over. The idea of being able to play a toon forever and to continue to impact the game is the reason why I play mmos. That way I can play a toon for months and months and see all I’ve done and accomplished and all my gear and loot and friends and not feel like I’ve wasted my time cause I finished the game and have to start over. Just how I feel on the subject, I play to have fun.

It’s not progression.

Stop calling it that.
Levelling is progression, you gain new stuff, new skills.

Endgame is endgame, you don’t move at all, it’s just a way to artificially make the content last longer.
The proper term is “content barricade”.

Thanks.

No self-respecting gamer cares about getting higher numbers more than he/she cares about gameplay. Not a single one. Bring this “crazy” concept of numbers taking a backseat to fun gameplay to the MMORPG genre and, well, you get the GW2 forums.

No, MMORPGs can stand on their own with gameplay. It’s just that no other major MMORPG has tried to go that route until now, not a single one, so it’s kind of a culture shock for all the people who go into a game looking for an infinite number increase.

While they’re chasing carrots, we’re eating ’em. I like that.

GW2’s zergy content just gets old really fast and they didn’t deliver on the innovation they promised.

This is just another theme park. The combat is good but the classes themselves are a fraction of a typical mmo class and a hollow shell of GW1 classes.

As for progression I loved GW1 PvE so I obviously don’t need carrots. I liked beating a difficult zone just because it was fun. I never have that feeling in GW2.

Oh, 5 man max groups for PvE? Weak.

Untouch.2541:

It’s not progression.

Stop calling it that.
Levelling is progression, you gain new stuff, new skills.

Endgame is endgame, you don’t move at all, it’s just a way to artificially make the content last longer.
The proper term is “content barricade”.

Thanks.

No wanting the story to continue is wanting some form of progression it is not a content barricade. Why is it nobody has a problem with how grindy it is to get new skins for weapons but the second someone mentions slightly better loot they get flamed?

I have no problem with PvP progression at the moment, I really like how everyone has pretty much the same gear. In PvE it would be nice to have more story line that comes out with slightly better gear ( No this does not have to mean they are huge upgrades that cause vast power creep issues).

It is also not an mmo thing it’s from of rpg games. If the story line remains at the same difficulty throughout the entire game and the pc remains at the same power level for the entire game the game becomes boring really quickly. The story line needs to progress and the player needs to feel as if they are getting stronger for completing more difficult content.

DusK.3849:

While they’re chasing carrots, we’re eating ’em. I like that.

You do realize that…this game…is full of carrots…right?

You are just chasing them differently than other mmo’s lol.

So what if you cant get a massive 2 hander and 2 shot people. People are still grinding karma, tokens, badges, gold, mats, for skins and stat advantages big or small.

To be fair, it’s human nature. There’s nothing wrong with it.

It’s like someone who chooses to be celibate and condemns others for going out and fornicating because they like it.

After seeing alot of game design material and seeing the psychology behind game design there’s multiple types of players, and for the most part progression is an important part for most of them (for nearly any game), there’s nothing wrong with it.

Just because WoW has gotten to the point where the only thing to do in “endgame” is gear treadmill and makes access to that gear easy and quickly moves on to the next tier cheapening the experience/achievement doesn’t mean it’s bad, just the implementation is bad.

Not that I’m saying GW2 needs to have a gear treadmill, I highly doubt that will ever happen and I am quite glad about that. But if they CAN manage to fill that gap with other achievements/rewards (optional/cosmetic/whatever) as well as continue to pump out fun and CHALLENGING fights/content (such as making their DE’s less faceroll, bosses much more interesting and difficult to fight etc.) it can be very successful.

Hell even WoW had such a thing, recall having some really tough achievements or challenges that rewarded special Mounts you could really show off and be proud of, GW could use more of that. I’m not sure if Legendaries can even fill that role, considering Legendaries are grinded for as opposed to “achieved” from some really tough challenge.

From what I recall from doing “Raids”, it wasn’t the phat loot I was looking forward to, (well I WAS looking forward to it but it’s just a simple carrot designed to encourage you to go there in the first place) it was the fact that there was a challenging, interesting fight that took great teamwork and practice to finally beat, and was incredibly fun/satisfying when you pulled it off. And the fact that there was always something you haven’t beat/finished yet to come afterwards.

I wanna see the end game DE’s or World Bosses that have more complex mechanics and multiple objectives that were tough and required teamwork to beat. Can see guilds or random people trying to organize to work on pushing a chain of events to cause a World Boss event that’s actually tough. Instead of having a gear treadmill (content chaining to content) have a skill/teamwork treadmill with events.

Keep in mine this is coming from someone who quit WoW years ago and used to be one of the classic “WoW haters”. I’m not being biased in the least bit.

It is also not an mmo thing it’s an form of rpg game. If the story line remains at the same difficulty throughout the entire game and the pc remains at the same power level for the entire game the game becomes boring really quickly. The story line needs to progress and the player needs to feel as if they are getting stronger for completing more difficult content.

The interesting thing is that GW1 did not have this. You capped out at level 20 and gear very early through the content, and played the rest of the PvE content capped. People still enjoyed it in the millions of players. So while I’d agree that it’s a common thing in RPGs, it isn’t ubiquitous or necessary.

knightblaster.8027:

It is also not an mmo thing it’s an form of rpg game. If the story line remains at the same difficulty throughout the entire game and the pc remains at the same power level for the entire game the game becomes boring really quickly. The story line needs to progress and the player needs to feel as if they are getting stronger for completing more difficult content.

The interesting thing is that GW1 did not have this. You capped out at level 20 and gear very early through the content, and played the rest of the PvE content capped. People still enjoyed it in the millions of players. So while I’d agree that it’s a common thing in RPGs, it isn’t ubiquitous or necessary.

I never played GW1 that long past Factions, so forgive me for asking, but what is so different then if people that successfully enjoyed GW1 pve for so long but don’t in GW2? Besides the skill/build complexity.

knightblaster.8027:

It is also not an mmo thing it’s an form of rpg game. If the story line remains at the same difficulty throughout the entire game and the pc remains at the same power level for the entire game the game becomes boring really quickly. The story line needs to progress and the player needs to feel as if they are getting stronger for completing more difficult content.

The interesting thing is that GW1 did not have this. You capped out at level 20 and gear very early through the content, and played the rest of the PvE content capped. People still enjoyed it in the millions of players. So while I’d agree that it’s a common thing in RPGs, it isn’t ubiquitous or necessary.

However the content got harder and you felt better of beating it yes?

Also cheers for quoting me, I am really out of it this morning and you helped me find my typos :S.

Take a step back and think what awesome stories can you tell? Was there a time when you won against all odd, had an “epic win” per se? That is my style. I just find friends who meet my style.

The topic is a great one, and there is nothing wrong with any definition of the word “progression”. Each player plays for their own reason, and so long as it makes them happy then all is good.

At the same time, I don’t let my self get bothered by someone else’s approach to the game. I’ll be honest, the hardest thing for me to do is read the forums, because I see very different ideas behind how the game should be made, all of them are as valid as each other. But I also learn so much about how different people play the game.

Knote.2904:

knightblaster.8027:

It is also not an mmo thing it’s an form of rpg game. If the story line remains at the same difficulty throughout the entire game and the pc remains at the same power level for the entire game the game becomes boring really quickly. The story line needs to progress and the player needs to feel as if they are getting stronger for completing more difficult content.

The interesting thing is that GW1 did not have this. You capped out at level 20 and gear very early through the content, and played the rest of the PvE content capped. People still enjoyed it in the millions of players. So while I’d agree that it’s a common thing in RPGs, it isn’t ubiquitous or necessary.

I never played GW1 that long past Factions, so forgive me for asking, but what is so different then if people that successfully enjoyed GW1 pve for so long but don’t in GW2? Besides the skill/build complexity.

A very different group of people coming here because it’s a “true persistent world MMO”, and expecting it to be like other persistent world MMOs in terms of being designed around endless progression. You’ll find that a lot of people are in GW2 who never played GW1 at all, or only very little of it, and don’t really care about what it was about … and others who did play GW1 and don’t like GW2 either because of the ways they changed things from GW1! It’s trying to be a halfway point between what GW1 was and what other persistent world MMOs are.

However the content got harder and you felt better of beating it yes?

Yes. And GW2 should have more of that and hopefully will. GW2 does emphasize player skill progression already, really, but it needs to do a better job at providing avenues for that once capped.

A lot of people are saying “human nature”, but I think culture has a huge impact on this. American culture in particular puts a large importance on individual achievement – and it makes sense that what a culture values is what it will seek even during “play time”.

Psychologically, the reward system of “bigger numbers” for doing something a certain amount of times feeds into this. You see this examined a lot with why games like Farmville got so popular.

This isn’t hating on America or bigger numbers (we could spend a lot of time examining how the Japanese value achievement and comparing and contrasting, for example). :P In the end, different people’s cultures and environments and families and what all create individual people – and they value things differently. That’s why we have different leisure activities – so that many different people can find something they enjoy.

Ceallach.8740:

A lot of people are saying “human nature”, but I think culture has a huge impact on this. American culture in particular puts a large importance on individual achievement – and it makes sense that what a culture values is what it will seek even during “play time”.

Psychologically, the reward system of “bigger numbers” for doing something a certain amount of times feeds into this. You see this examined a lot with why games like Farmville got so popular.

This isn’t hating on America or bigger numbers (we could spend a lot of time examining how the Japanese value achievement and comparing and contrasting, for example). :P In the end, different people’s cultures and environments and families and what all create individual people – and they value things differently. That’s why we have different leisure activities – so that many different people can find something they enjoy.

Well it’s not like WoW is only successful in America.

wow… kudos to the OP: Corian.4068 I didnt think there would be anyone that would talk about this in such a way…

unfortunately I have to agree. it does seem that the way MMO’s are designed to be played these days is to simply ‘progress’, GW2 does it somewhat differently and because the ‘progression’ isnt in neon lights saying “hey…. your completing stuff” and people arent enjoying it…

from personal experience GW2 is the most fun I have had in any RPG or MMO in a LONG TIME.

I have quite a few friends playing GW2; most of them share the same mentality of ‘just do stuff to get stuff, shopping list… dont care…. gogogogo… need to quickly do the next thing…’ the other day I played with a friend… he paid NO attention to the story… what so ever he just rushed through it. not really paying attention and then he askes me ‘er… whats going on?… who’s this? why is this happening? why are we here?…’ then he finally says. ’I’m not doing it right am I?’ of course my answer was yes. it still didnt really change how he played…

whenever i play with them… I simply do NOT enjoy it… we have great fun playing other games together but when it came to GW2 I was surprisingly disappointed…

there are some friends however that play GW2 the way I enjoy it… wich is genuinely enjoying the EXPERIENCE of the game. we have even come to a point that for the most part we physically WALK to our destination instead of running. we explore the world at our own pace rather than ‘right this is done now quickly to the next heart/event/POI ect ect’

unfortunately the mentality of MMO’s now is ‘get to endgame thats all that matters’ is basically conditioned into most players. which I find a real shame because I find that there is ALOT to enjoy in not only gameplay, but story and aesthetics….

I’m rather enjoying the way GW2 handles progression; the only gripe I still have with it is the ‘tier’ system they added for the slot skills. I was in the beta that simply gave you a big list and it was simply ‘right… choose what you think sounds good or to your style’ regardless… I’m still loving the experiences I am getting from it. I bet I still will in the times to come.

Knote.2904:

Ceallach.8740:

A lot of people are saying “human nature”, but I think culture has a huge impact on this. American culture in particular puts a large importance on individual achievement – and it makes sense that what a culture values is what it will seek even during “play time”.

Psychologically, the reward system of “bigger numbers” for doing something a certain amount of times feeds into this. You see this examined a lot with why games like Farmville got so popular.

This isn’t hating on America or bigger numbers (we could spend a lot of time examining how the Japanese value achievement and comparing and contrasting, for example). :P In the end, different people’s cultures and environments and families and what all create individual people – and they value things differently. That’s why we have different leisure activities – so that many different people can find something they enjoy.

Well it’s not like WoW is only successful in America.

Indeed, and that’s why I mentioned “in particular” and said it would be a very big task to tackle each culture individually and… the whole last paragraph, really.

What many people don’t see is that not all games have to be ‘for them’.

Just because a game is labeled as an MMORPG, it does not mean that it HAS to be the same as the bazillion other MMORPGs out there. Sure, gear progression can be fun, I wont deny that. But that’s not GW2’s focus. In this game you can indeed just take a break or stop playing completely, once you get bored with it. There is no subscription, so unlike other MMORPGs out there, GW2 has no NEED to bind the players for months.
You take off the game what you like, play through it and are done.

I have something like 170-200 hours played on my record and havent seen anything beyond the lvl 25-35 area yet, having a lvl 40 ranger and a lvl 35 or 36 mesmer. I am still deeply enjoying the game, because I don’t play it “shopping list like”. I just wander around the area with a friend and we do whatever comes up. More often than not, we don’t get from A to B within an hour or two, because of all the DEs on the way.

I can see how some people do not enjoy this. But to the people, who want endgame raids and a gear treadmill: this might just not be the game for you. Noone forces anyone to play a game just because it’s of the same genre as their favorite games.

Somewhere above it was stated what is the difference between grinding for cosmetic gear and grinding for gear that increases your stats. In my oppinion the difference is the following:
You don’t need the cosmetic gear to get on with the game. But if the game has a ‘gear treadmill’, you need the gear in order to see everything. So, you have no choice but to grind for the gear, if you want to see all content, the game has to offer.

Rpg players have been slowly conditioned over time to expect monetary and item rewards for the majority of their adventurea. This isn’t just MMOs, if you go all the way back to tabletop RPGs, PC games like Bards Tale, Ultima, AD&D gold box, Final Fantasy, these games started over 30 years ago, progressed into games like Baldurs Gate, Diablo, Neverwinter and MUDs to make the and EQs and UOs and all the other MMOs we see today.

As far as I’m concerned, it was the introduction of token currency to buy loot that killed MMO dungeons for me. I’ve been conditioned over 30 years of RpGs to be excited about downing a boss and taking his loot, not saving up foodstamps to buy gear.

Corian.4068:

Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

I happen to think that progression in the life of a normal person engaged in a hobby, an entertaining endeavor, a pursuit, or life in-general is something (that pursuit) that is met with very rewarding outcomes; the outcome varies depending on who you are.

There are some folks that enjoy a pursuit, some entertainment, a life and hobby, but without progression or a rewarding experience; perhaps something that is shallow or non-progressive. Many might call that person and the engagement stale, dormant, dull, stagnant, foolish, or lazy.

Depends on what one believes, I guess.

Cik.6479:

Corian.4068:

Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

I happen to think that progression in the life of a normal person engaged in a hobby, an entertaining endeavor, a pursuit, or life in-general is something (that pursuit) that is met with very rewarding outcomes; the outcome varies depending on who you are.

There are some folks that enjoy a pursuit, some entertainment, a life and hobby, but without progression or a rewarding experience; perhaps something that is shallow or non-progressive. Many might call that person and the engagement stale, dormant, dull, stagnant, foolish, or lazy.

Depends on what one believes, I guess.

I guess the question is, when you play guild wars 2 how are you progressing? I think there is lots of progression, but it’s not in raw stats. The rewarding outcome is the reflection on the experience, absorbing the details of the world, learning new ways to play, the satisfaction of solving a puzzle, conquering someone skillfully in pvp or discovering a new strategy to defeat a dungeon and getting a unique skin for your armor.

As soon as the superior stats are removed from the said rewards for accomplishing the above, it feels less satisfying. But why is that?

I find it greatly ironic that in WoW, superior stats served no function but to usher in the next tier of content. Stat inflation was an illusion of progression implemented purely as a method of gating content mathematically. Showing a bigger number is a very tangible method of gauging progress, so it was kept as a feature. It’s trickery.

Now that these stat boundaries have been somewhat reduced in GW2, a bunch of players want them back as if they did anything in the first place other than limit what content they could experience.

As far as a play experience is concerned, the only thing stat progression really did was allow players to crush dated, dry content or relax the consequences of play mistakes.

You just need to ask yourself

1. what is an RPG.
2. what is an MMO*RPG*

If you can answer that, you will see why “progression” is intrinsic to the RPG genre. It’s not wrong to expect progression and customisation and personalisation and a storied world in which to play in.

There are already genre that cater to people who want to play with other people who don’t care about a perpetual world and your relation to it; games where players don’t care about stats and weapons and armor and looks – it’s called FPS (Modern Warfare etc…)

progression (and its linked attributes) is a major part of this genre. You wouldn’t label a biography of Bill Clinton as Sci-Fi would you? Likewise, if you take out the RPG elements of an MMORPG, it’s not an MMORPG is it?

ounkeo.9138:

You just need to ask yourself

1. what is an RPG.
2. what is an MMO*RPG*

If you can answer that, you will see why “progression” is intrinsic to the RPG genre. It’s not wrong to expect progression and customisation and personalisation and a storied world in which to play in.

There are already genre that cater to people who want to play with other people who don’t care about a perpetual world and your relation to it; games where players don’t care about stats and weapons and armor and looks – it’s called FPS (Modern Warfare etc…)

progression (and its linked attributes) is a major part of this genre. You wouldn’t label a biography of Bill Clinton as Sci-Fi would you? Likewise, if you take out the RPG elements of an MMORPG, it’s not an MMORPG is it?

An RPG can have a power cap. You’re making it sound like every single person starts out at level 80 touting exotics straight out of character creation.

GW2 is moving back toward a virtual world rather than a themepark. Yes there’s direction but it still acts more like a Virtual world than a progression themepark ( ala SWTOR and WoW ).

I hope at some point they add in player cities/housing or something like that, to further emphasize the virtual world point rather than a bunch new dungeons for progression people.

What do you think?

MMOs are a business, the aim of the game is profit: how to make profit? long term players. Simple. Marketing plan from that point onwards revolves around training them to play for as long as possible.

The guild wars dudes have taken a more unique approach and I like that a lot, however the game is still the same but revolves (I would like to think) more around keeping the players happy so they get more ppl to buy and invest in the game, heres to hoping. Stay tuned.

I think that these players who continue to say that “Guild Wars 2” is about fun are missing the fact that people don’t repeat dungeons for fun. For most people leveling is not fun after the first go ’round.

There is nothing wrong with wanting progress. RPGs in and of themselves have been at their core about character building and progression since D&D. For many it is therapeutic. People looking for progress aren’t approaching “Guild Wars 2” the wrong way, they are approaching it like they would any other game – RPG or not.

If it is true that this game is just about the journey as some say on these forums then this game’s success has already plateaued. That said I think those posters are wrong. Like every MMORPG this game has an endgame. This game is about PvP and “Monster Hunter” style gear progression (horizontal) both of which are niche.

PS: And I’d just like to point out that vertical gear progression is no worse then horizontal gear progression. If anything, you could say it is better since “WoW” is the most successful MMORPG on the market and majority rules.

DusK.3849:

ounkeo.9138:

You just need to ask yourself

1. what is an RPG.
2. what is an MMO*RPG*

If you can answer that, you will see why “progression” is intrinsic to the RPG genre. It’s not wrong to expect progression and customisation and personalisation and a storied world in which to play in.

There are already genre that cater to people who want to play with other people who don’t care about a perpetual world and your relation to it; games where players don’t care about stats and weapons and armor and looks – it’s called FPS (Modern Warfare etc…)

progression (and its linked attributes) is a major part of this genre. You wouldn’t label a biography of Bill Clinton as Sci-Fi would you? Likewise, if you take out the RPG elements of an MMORPG, it’s not an MMORPG is it?

An RPG can have a power cap. You’re making it sound like every single person starts out at level 80 touting exotics straight out of character creation.

I’m fine with power caps. I’m a big proponent of power caps. I came from DAOC where everything had a hard cap even years in and with many expansions. Only with Atlantis did the pwoer gap widen considerably, but that has been corrected and everythign since has been side-grades.

The difference between DAOC and GW2 is that DAOC is vastly more easily customisable and progression is easier in many respects than GW2. There, once you hit level cap, you craft a suit of 99% quality gear, go to a spellcrafter and have that player customise your equipment stats for you. Then you fill out the gaps with fluff or glitzy special items from, say, Atlantis. It takes a week or less to be competitive in pvp/RVR there. And while the PVE is still mainly old school in execution, you could spend as much time or as little time in PVE as you wanted. All of this advanced your character.

There isn’t a power cap in GW2. There is a complete game cap. It’s very limited. Compared to one of the oldest MMORPG and the grandfather of large PVP, GW2 is severely limited. The leveling is better in GW2. That is all. It’s not that the end game in DAOC is complete (it is), it’s that the end game in DAOC allows players to play how and when and where and in what manner they want.

the only cap they have there is your overall character level cap and your power level cap. If we want to talk about how GW2 doesn’t have carrots and progression, then we need to look at other similar games that likewise have little/few of such things yet still allow a free range in how the player decides what happens at end game. It’s not even a contest.

admittedly there was a period of Atlantis where they tried to go the Raid grind route, but by in large, that’s been neutered and you can now effectively do whatever you want without being penalised either way.

Don’t want to grind as max level? Great. Just buy the crafted armor from a crafter and have it customised by a spellcrafter. Buy everything you need from the market/other players. By the time you hit max, you have enough money to do that + change.

Want to grind? You can do that.

Want to dungeon grind? You can do that.

Want to loot grind? You can do that as well.

Want to PVP with little time investment and setup? You can do that.

Want to craft the whole day? Sure, go ahead.

Want to build your house and customise it? Go ahead.

Want to explore? go ahead.

Don’t like your armor? Easy, farm for a new look or buy it with the plat you already have from leveling.

In GW2, our option is artificially limited with the final option being, “you just hit 80, you win the game…” The breadth of "character progression here is shallow indeed with players argueing it should be even more shallow.