Guild Wars 2

nice post. They are not the worst enemy of the game, but the worst enemy of developers (poor devs… here’s a well earned cookie), who are forced to advance at a very faster pace than any logical forecast would’ve predicted. Lifeless nerds are beyond logic, and they are a cluster of immense zergs which literally devour every bit on the game with a neverending hunger that cannot be satisfied no matter how they struggle.
Although I feel bad for poor devs, I kinda recognize as cosmic balance the presence of such grinzergs ’cause the game I play will continue to improve, expand and be – ultimately – fun for me.

The thing is, dedicated players are the reason MMOs live and prosper. Casual players, especially in a game like gw2, tend to leave and return from time to time.

GW2 is the most accessible mmo su such players, with 2nd tier endgame gear handed out like cookies, and ascended only offering small power increases. Everyone (well, whoever stays long enough) in a MMO need long term goals , and having skins be that is the fairest you can ask.

Personally, i’m currently playing a couple hours every evening ( used to play about twice that last year ), and my bank is overflowing with ascended items, hundreds of gold i have no use for, 2 full exo lv 80. And you have more playtime then me.

Also, YOU ‘RE NO ONE TO CRITICIZE WHY AND HOW MUCH TIME PEOPLE SPEND PLAYING. IT’S NOT YOU OWN DAM BUSINESS . GET REAL, because discussing time/reward ratio is one thing, downright insulting people who have more free time than you is another.

Hardcore players are actually less of a problem then casual players. The casual players I know don’t care about content because they aren’t around long enough to see it all. Hardcore players want content because the current game content is actually incredibly lacking when you look at it.

Grevender.9235:

Lifeless nerds are beyond logic, and they are a cluster of immense zergs which literally devour every bit on the game with a neverending hunger that cannot be satisfied no matter how they struggle.

Sometimes I get upset about the poor decisions I’ve made that have ultimately lead to a lifestyle devoid of glamour, wealth, and fame. I, too, mock anonymous faces on official gaming forums to ease this empty feeling.

Hardcore players are a minority, devs pamper to the masses. Every hardcore player could up and leave all at once, Anet wouldn’t even notice. If you haven’t noticed, this game, as do many other mainstream games have progression ceilings, things that can only be done at a certain rate, dailies, weeklies, monthlies. So no matter how many hours you sink into a game, your progression can only efficiency advance at a certain rate. Even farming has diminishing returns.

Its people like you who have caused developers to have to impose these measures. To see people complain even about this really confirms many of my thoughts about where the gaming industry is going.

I’m going to assume you only recently got into the mmo genre considering your perspective. So you don’t know the things people who spent a quarter, half, all of their day playing used to achieve over average players. Back when gamers in general were a minority, and when there were no progression ceilings.

btw, I work 50+ hours a week, and have no trouble keeping up with the progression cealing in this game with 15 hours a week gameplay.

No.

In terms of the playerbase, it’s the lack of attention paid to role players that is this game’s worst enemy.

Well, that or the swing and a miss that is GW2 PvP.

Urvanis.2985:

Hardcore players are a minority, devs pamper to the masses. Every hardcore player could up and leave all at once, Anet wouldn’t even notice.

But everyone else would, and then many of them would start leaving, and eventually Anet would notice.

Who do you think makes the youtube videos, or the 3rd party sites, or maintains quality guilds?

Cloud.7613:

The casual players I know don’t care about content because they aren’t around long enough to see it all.

And that’s the danger of catering to casuals; they’re generally so not involved in the game that they’re unlikely to stick with it beyond when the next new shiny releases.

I think that this speed consuming way to play games is a threat, not for the game in general, but for the aspects I like in this game. There are so many really cool things to explore, to see, to experience and I really wonder if many people actually enjoy those.

You can discover a zone by really exploring it or by running from one point to another, not recognising anything, doing all the hearts not even knowing who they are, jump from vista to the next skillpoint challenge, fast, fast, fast… At the end all content is done and people are demanding for more, more shinies, more reward more, more more.

I’ve really wondered why developers in MMOs make the effort to write questlines and to make a living world when people seem to be happy with click, check, run and gain “reward.”

The consequence mostly is that content gets artificially elongated by needing insane amounts of mats or time or other things, just to keep people occupied to the game.

I don’t like the term “hardcore players”. A player can play less and still be hardcore. If they play smart.

Hardcore grinders will never be satisfied. They are only playing for better stats. And when they get their better stats, they complain about being board.

Possibly we need to relabel as serious hardcore and very casual with a massive gap in between. How long people play is not just their business if they have played excessively and want more content to feed this playstyle and rewards only this play time can give, whilst maybe the game would be better with bug fixes instead and a balance for all the players to enjoy. To explain between September the 28th and February the 28th there are exactly 3696 hours and many people will have spent half or more of that in game.

This excessive fast consumption is not needed to drive this game. Dont get me wrong very casual players who play 10 hours a week or less amassing 220 hours will not be enough to keep the games population at an enjoyable level but there is a huge area in between where I suspect most players fall.

Players who keep mentioning other mmos from other times forget the market is much more different now. MMOS need to cater for a wider audience as long as there are so many of them out there. Back in the day competition was between a more dedicated type audience when it was maybe EQ versus Ultima versus AC but this was long before WoW, DDO, LOTR, AoC, GW, TSW, RIFTS, SWTOR, Aion and so on and so forth.

So if you want a game to succeed today it isnt the hardcore thats making this work its the inbetween players, neither hardcore or casual (as we consider each of those categories right now).

Onshidesigns.1069:

I don’t like the term “hardcore players”. A player can play less and still be hardcore. If they play smart.

That’s why ANet called the target audience for the long term gear progression “dedicated” players, which IMO describes everything from very casual upwards quite well.

ASB.4295:

Onshidesigns.1069:

I don’t like the term “hardcore players”. A player can play less and still be hardcore. If they play smart.

That’s why ANet called the target audience for the long term gear progression “dedicated” players, which IMO describes everything from very casual upwards quite well.

When I think of hardcore I think of players that spend excessive amounts of time in the game taking it very seriously as if there life depended on it. Very good, skilled, high achieving players are just that to me but not my idea of hardcore.

ASB.4295:

Onshidesigns.1069:

I don’t like the term “hardcore players”. A player can play less and still be hardcore. If they play smart.

That’s why ANet called the target audience for the long term gear progression “dedicated” players, which IMO describes everything from very casual upwards quite well.

No! hardcore grinders do not buy many gems.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s10e08-make-love-not-warcraft

Hardcore player is just a nice name for people that cant think anything better to do with their lives than sit in chair 16 hours a day “achieving” glorious things in games. Beeing totaly unproductive as they are, they are their own worst enemy.
Now im sure ill get flamed alot for calling things their true name, and i probably wont sleep well for at least a week because of it. On side note, developers biggest enemy are probably funding companys that usually distort original ideas to fit business models.

joneb.5679:

Possibly we need to relabel as serious hardcore and very casual with a massive gap in between. How long people play is not just their business if they have played excessively and want more content to feed this playstyle and rewards only this play time can give, whilst maybe the game would be better with bug fixes instead and a balance for all the players to enjoy. To explain between September the 28th and February the 28th there are exactly 3696 hours and many people will have spent half or more of that in game.

This excessive fast consumption is not needed to drive this game. Dont get me wrong very casual players who play 10 hours a week or less amassing 220 hours will not be enough to keep the games population at an enjoyable level but there is a huge area in between where I suspect most players fall.

Players who keep mentioning other mmos from other times forget the market is much more different now. MMOS need to cater for a wider audience as long as there are so many of them out there. Back in the day competition was between a more dedicated type audience when it was maybe EQ versus Ultima versus AC but this was long before WoW, DDO, LOTR, AoC, GW, TSW, RIFTS, SWTOR, Aion and so on and so forth.

So if you want a game to succeed today it isnt the hardcore thats making this work its the inbetween players, neither hardcore or casual (as we consider each of those categories right now).

Casual players are just as worse for the games future, to say hardcore players alone is just blasphemous. I’ve done pretty much everything the game has to offer, closer to hardcore then casual, but even then that’s not much of an accomplishment. Casual players are quick to judge hardcore players who complain about lack of content, when they’re happy for the bare minimum. Yes hardcore players aren’t doing themselves a favor being so adamant about the situation, but is it that much of an issue that they want more from a game that is just giving bare minimum to suit the masses?

Is the hardcore player who grinds for better stats really hardcore? They tend to only play a small amount of the content.

Or, is the casual player really the hardcore player? They can play and appreciate the whole game.

Cloud.7613:

joneb.5679:

Possibly we need to relabel as serious hardcore and very casual with a massive gap in between. How long people play is not just their business if they have played excessively and want more content to feed this playstyle and rewards only this play time can give, whilst maybe the game would be better with bug fixes instead and a balance for all the players to enjoy. To explain between September the 28th and February the 28th there are exactly 3696 hours and many people will have spent half or more of that in game.

This excessive fast consumption is not needed to drive this game. Dont get me wrong very casual players who play 10 hours a week or less amassing 220 hours will not be enough to keep the games population at an enjoyable level but there is a huge area in between where I suspect most players fall.

Players who keep mentioning other mmos from other times forget the market is much more different now. MMOS need to cater for a wider audience as long as there are so many of them out there. Back in the day competition was between a more dedicated type audience when it was maybe EQ versus Ultima versus AC but this was long before WoW, DDO, LOTR, AoC, GW, TSW, RIFTS, SWTOR, Aion and so on and so forth.

So if you want a game to succeed today it isnt the hardcore thats making this work its the inbetween players, neither hardcore or casual (as we consider each of those categories right now).

Casual players are just as worse for the games future, to say hardcore players alone is just blasphemous. I’ve done pretty much everything the game has to offer, closer to hardcore then casual, but even then that’s not much of an accomplishment. Casual players are quick to judge hardcore players who complain about lack of content, when they’re happy for the bare minimum. Yes hardcore players aren’t doing themselves a favor being so adamant about the situation, but is it that much of an issue that they want more from a game that is just giving bare minimum to suit the masses?

I dont think this game does give the bare minimum and by the way I’m neither hardcore or casual. I have two level 80s kitted with exotics, a level 37 and two lower levels. I have done dungeons but I am a little short on completing all paths of any of them. I have done fractals which are enjoyable with my guildies but a bit too repetitive. I love new content usually but didn’t enjoy the Lost Shores event as I was busy in rl too and the zone seems quite boring to me with a horrible landscape and Kharka everywhere and not much more a variety of enemy. I’m looking forward to guild events though.

What I am getting from this discussion is that this would be a great game if nobody played it!

For the record: I put in a lot of hours, sure, but my way of playing is very casual. That is, I tend to wander around the game jumping from character to character playing (and replaying) the parts I enjoy and occasionally dabbling in parts I didn’t particularly enjoy the last time I tried them just to see if maybe this time it will be different (it rarely is) but I don’t really ‘work’ at getting better at anything. If I get better at anything it’s more or less coincidental (as opposed to concentrated effort, like, say, practicing scales on guitar).

I don’t want or need Ascended Gear. I don’t want or need more levels. I don’t want or need to go through ‘boring grind’ to get to the ‘fun stuff’. I just want the fun stuff to be there when I feel like having fun with it. Keep giving me fun stuff to do and I’ll keep doing it. And eventually I’ll crack open the old wallet. Unfortunately, it’s looking like the game is becoming more and more about going through a ‘boring grind’ to get to the ‘fun stuff’.

If this trend continues, which seems likely given that it is continuing even as we speak, there will be no Guild Wars 2 expansions in my casual future. Even if the next one is ‘Welcome to Cantha! Pre-order now and get a T5 Connie mount and an alicorn minipet!’

I came to Guild Wars 2 because I loved the original Guild Wars – where I also put in a lot of casual hours – hey, I have two fully-upgraded accounts, got the second because at the time one could not buy extra character slots, and later when that became available, I bought more character slots – and I am, to this day, not much more ‘skilled’ at playing it than the first day I played it. I came to Guild Wars 2 even though it’s an NCSoft game. I despise NCSoft for what they did to the City of Heroes players and will never play any other game with their name on it, but I gave them a pass this time because hey, ArenaNet! Original Guild Wars! And because, even though I tend to view game developers as kin to snake oil salesmen and politicians, I really wanted to believe all the rosy posy stuff and nonsense they spouted in the Manifesto…

/e eyeroll.

Henceforth, however… no more passes. Give me non-grindy non-boring fun – or get out. This! Is! HARDCORE!

I also like turtles.

They certainly are in the sense of being completely useless when it comes to fixing the glaring problems with this game design. They troll all kinds of problematic reports by the sensible players every time they post anything and always with the same argument.

Condi damage too low or has a max limit? Lrn2playnub
Loot not dropping off mobs? Lrn2playnub
Healing not functioning like it should? Lrn2playnub
Game has become a dungeon lobby gear treadmill? Lrn2playnub

It’s literally the same argument in every thread. We need real solutions and the faster the obstructionists leave maybe the sooner the devs will listen to reason instead of the “everything is perfect in this game” crowd.

Aegis.9724:

The thing is, dedicated players are the reason MMOs live and prosper.

not quite frankly, as the ones that spends RL money are the ones who works and earn RL money, this also means they cannot be grinzergs. GW2 has an average mature audience, and this means that they are casual players mostly (although the amount of playtime per week may vary).

GW2 is the most accessible mmo su such players, with 2nd tier endgame gear handed out like cookies, and ascended only offering small power increases. Everyone (well, whoever stays long enough) in a MMO need long term goals , and having skins be that is the fairest you can ask.

I think developers’s choice was right when they decided to make all the gear easily accessible, that move automatically selected their primary userbase pool. As per the long term goals: it’s okay to have many, but it’s even better to realize how fun is the journey without caring about a specific goal. It will come anyway, eventually…

Personally, i’m currently playing a couple hours every evening ( used to play about twice that last year ), and my bank is overflowing with ascended items, hundreds of gold i have no use for, 2 full exo lv 80.

full green trinkets, full yellow armor, two cheap exotic weapons. I am enjoying my time anyway…

Also, YOU ‘RE NO ONE TO CRITICIZE WHY AND HOW MUCH TIME PEOPLE SPEND PLAYING. IT’S NOT YOU OWN DAM BUSINESS . GET REAL, because discussing time/reward ratio is one thing, downright insulting people who have more free time than you is another.

no one is insulting people with free time, the misuse of it ’tho has been proven unhealthy long before my point of view and yours.

No i don’t believe hardcore players are ruining this game i think Anet is. If you look at the game it is definitly set up so both casuals and hardcore yet their is no substance in the provided system to keep both players continuously playing. The Spvp ranks take a long time to get with no real reward in between causing most players to get to around 10 and stop due to the lack of any reward what so ever(I’ve seen this happen many many time since launch with both the casual and the hardcore). Pve is nice but once you have experienced the dungeons you need stuff from you never really feel any need to return i mean what is the point to return? their is none unless you wanna make some quick gold or gear for an alt. Dynamic Events are supposed to be dynamic heck the world is but it’s not dragons land in the same spot every time looking exactly the same and attacking the same. Dynamic events are just on a loop instead of centaurs getting completely pushed out of an area having to strike from a new location so that makes for some boring encounters after a period of time. Fotm is actually fun having multiple levels for w/e kind of player wants to join in and having great mechanics. Unfortunately how it was executed only supported a small amount of the player base to keep playing till they got so far up they could only play with a smaller section of the community. Should of been an xp bar that you could get xp for whenever you were in Fractal but either way it is the game trying to appeal to both sides with content of all kinds but not offering any sort of substance for both players to enjoy. WvW is especially obvious of this it is fun but their is no real point in doing it.

Aegis.9724:

Also, YOU ‘RE NO ONE TO CRITICIZE WHY AND HOW MUCH TIME PEOPLE SPEND PLAYING. IT’S NOT YOU OWN DAM BUSINESS.

Yes because sitting on your kitten for 2/3 of your life has had no scientific evidence to show how much damage it does to your body or that more and more people are obese because of the lack of physical exercise.
~Point aside.

It’s quite hard to find a balance to cater for hardcore and casual but GW2 has been quite good in that respect, the players that finished everything and wanted more content got Lost Shores; wanted more dungeons and vertical progression, Anet gave them the option of FotM.

GW2 didn’t have any huge grinds or time drainers besides getting a legendary because it didn’t need them, it didn’t need to drain hours from a players playtime to make money off a subscription that didn’t exist. It didn’t make the player to wait 5 hours to craft 100 mats (TY for your fast bulk crafing ANet!) or the endless back and forth between picking up a quest and handing this in (IMO best part of GW2) or even level up. Because Gw2 was B2P and not P2P it didn’t really need to keep players around for long periods at a time.

And for people that keep mentioning players leaving, this is usually during long periods of time when there has been no new content released or non-event times, then there’s a huge influx of players when there is new content or an event (Remember the lag during Halloween? Lost Shores? FotM? Yep even FotM but that’s only because there was a HUGE influx of players forced into an already overpopulated area).
There’s nothing stopping old players from coming back but they’d rather not come back till there’s more to do.

On a side note I don’t know how players can demand a expansion pack this soon in the games lifespan too, most expansions don’t come till roughly 1-2 years from release.
WoW released in November 2004, Burning Crusade: January 2007.
RIFT released in March 2011, Storm Legion: November 2012.
DDO (p2p): released in Feburary 2006, DDO (f2p): June 2009, Menace of the Underdark: June 2012.

Casual gamers are ruining GW2 with their resistance to DPS meters and fights with actual mechanics.

No, its not just the hardcore players. The game should at least have the most popular mmorph elements, (open world pvp/guild vs guild, housing, tons of new items regularly, a profitable crafting system). Both hardcore and casual players expect to have the most popular game elements. And its a plus to also include new and unique elements, such as guild wars-2 questing system.

Anyone who plays more than me is hardcore, spends half their life in the game, and (obviously) has no life..

Anyone who plays less than me is casual, and wants everything handed to them on a silver platter.

Huzzah!!11!!!one

Sarcasm aside..

Think of how many man hours it takes to create a single dungeon. Now how long does it take for the average persone to run it? How long does it take for the same person to get bored of it after X amount of times?

Developers will never be able to satisfy people who spend many hours daily in any MMO, nor should they try, in my opinion. I’m (obviously) using a themepark MMO as an example with dungeons, as i figure thats what most people play.

PvP (in my opinion) offers something different as far as length of content, if its done properly. WvW and SPvP can keep folks entertained much longer, with ranks, ladders, bragging rights etc. if thats your thing. Though i would think, the population is a lot smaller as well.

just my opinion.

If you build a system with good replay value, challenging and difficult enough to require coordination and teamplay, a toolbox on your class that requires a steep learning curve and years to master; developers will never need to provide updates as long as everything works without bugs.

LoL offeres more strategy and depth than Guild Wars 2 does and has 10x the amount of players.

Profit/hour isn’t something that hugely concerns me. I almost never get exotic drops and rares aren’t particularly common either, but I’m fine since I enjoy playing the game anyway. And I think that’s the key point. There are people I see on this forum who seem to act like their time playing the game is wasted if they don’t get X reward, and I wonder why they’re playing the game at all if all they care about is how quickly they can reach their goals. There are plenty of MMOs out there, surely one of them has actual gameplay they enjoy for the sake of playing, and not just as an obstacle getting between them and their loot. And I’m not saying that like “if you don’t like it then why don’t you just git out!!?” It’s just….. if you aren’t having fun then why keep banging your head against the wall?

I do dungeons and large events because I like them. The rewards I can ultimately get are just a way to guide me along, they’re not the ultimate goal. Having fun playing the game is. And as long as gear progression doesn’t ever get out of hand and we end up with a WoW-like system where you’re locked out of content because you didn’t farm out the previous tier of loot, I’ll keep having fun for a long time.

I think most hardcore players read and post in the forums lol! Still interesting thread.

GW2 is a casual centric game. Best casual MMO on the market atm.

Players that want any thing more than a casual experience will not be playing GW2

Nice try on the topic.

It won’t get very constructive save for a few posters.

No doubt hardcore gamers eat up content very rapidly. Wholly agree with that. And that might lead one to an opinion that there isn’t a lack of content but it is simply consumed too fast.

And enough beating up on ‘hardcore’ gamers or nerds whichever you choose to call. They are the reason why this industry is able to grow to its present state. Casuals were a minority. It only got ‘trendy’ to play MMOs in the last few years.

An mmo would usually allow a player several routes to be entertained. The main 2 would usually be dungeons or PVP. I can’t comment on PVP. Could never put my heart to it, just a personal taste.

PVE however. Now, I do not have any qualms about the way gear is atm. I think it’s pretty ‘nifty’. It would emphasize player skill/teamwork a lot more but the majority of dungeons do not require much at all. Most progression is horizontal since gear quality is capped out on exotics, putting aside ascended gear.

It’s a double edge sword. By doing so, there aren’t many layers for dungeon runners. You might jump in at this moment and say that there are other things to do. But, just like how some love to pvp day in day out, likewise some love dungeons. And there just aren’t many to do with any form of ‘meaningful’ (debatable word eh?) progression.

Just take a step back and break it all down into layers. It’s pretty much a piece of 3 ply Kleenex atm. It really doesn’t take much to get through.

edit:

Some of you also mention that GW2 is a casual centric game. That’s about as true as saying GW2 is meant to be a hardcore game but someone screwed up along the way up there.

Don’t peddle a skewed truth.

I am one of these hardcore players and the only thing I ever asked for is fixes and improvements in UI like trading post, guild abilities etc. The only extra content I asked for is for something to do with my guild that’s not WvW which they are adding soon. Which isn’t because I demand more content but rather the need to have something to solidify a community.

True there are a lot of people who go through the game in no time and then complain about lack of end game. I’m one of the hardcore people but I don’t have that complaint.

I’ve had a lot of hours clocked playing this game and I still love it, still enjoy it, still find things to do. New content would be nice of course but it’s mostly the bug fixes and improvement in existing systems that I’d like to see put in place. I’m in no rush I do what I feel like.

To be honest the people I hear complain most are casuals, more specifically they get to lvl 80 then feel like there is no end game because they don’t like the options for things to do (Like getting a legendary, ascended gear, all dungeon paths, wvw/spvp titles) nobody forces you to do these things but they are a lot of work. People go through the leveling content and then get bored by choice.

I feel like you can’t really complain about end game because after you’ve lvled up a few characters, done a lot of wvw, all dungeons, at least world completion, at least full exotic gear and done some sPvP.

I can guarantee once you’ve done all that you will have clocked so many hours of playtime that you can’t really then complain that there wasn’t enough to do. I’m pretty sure the devs understand this.

Part of the great thing about GW2 is that it doesn’t have a sub, people who get bored can leave and do other things. Then come back when new content is released.

Ansultares.1567:

No.

In terms of the playerbase, it’s the lack of attention paid to role players that is this game’s worst enemy.

Well, that or the swing and a miss that is GW2 PvP.

Urvanis.2985:

Hardcore players are a minority, devs pamper to the masses. Every hardcore player could up and leave all at once, Anet wouldn’t even notice.

But everyone else would, and then many of them would start leaving, and eventually Anet would notice.

Who do you think makes the youtube videos, or the 3rd party sites, or maintains quality guilds?

Cloud.7613:

The casual players I know don’t care about content because they aren’t around long enough to see it all.

And that’s the danger of catering to casuals; they’re generally so not involved in the game that they’re unlikely to stick with it beyond when the next new shiny releases.

I hope devs see this post. Actually I hope every dev of every recent mmo see this post.
Because it’s the absolute truth, and the major problem of nowadays gaming, especially mmorpgs.

Like I wrote so many times here, MMO studios seem to forgot who really keep their game alive. And for sure it’s not the casual crowd.
(casual in my ears being people who play at a random pace, a few hours a week, and who leave the game under two monthes).
(hardcore being very very dedicated players, not people who have no life at all)

What I don’t understand is how even investors & management can’t even see that, as it’s even recognizable by growth numbers :
the games which started to grow aggressively did not expand the most during the “catering to casual audience” times. (also known as “broadening the audience” strategy, which should be banned from earth for the damage it has caused to the industry).
Nope, when you look at it, every game that became hugely popular went that route thanks to their ability to please a niche, during a sustained amount of time. They were different, and they did generally speak to highly dedicated players (= hardcore gamers). Then hardcore gamers created fansites, articles, created a whole parallel life for the game.
And then the casual crowd entered, being attracted by those fansites, by this hardcore gamer word-of-mouth, massively boosting growth numbers. Serious players having serious gaming credits talking serious about one game ? You bet it will attract less dedicated gamers, and it’s a good thing indeed.

Casuals and hardcore are complementary, hardcore motivating casuals, casuals taking hardcore back to earth.

But right now, mmo studios really seem to have taken the hierarchy backwards.

• Casuals are relax, cool people who will come and go from time to time, saying hello to guild, maybe do a daily or two, and then “see ya”. They’re essential in the sense that you will always be able to find a casual player to chill out, take a mini-ride with you, somewhere, sometime, when hardcores are too busy preparing stuff. When I was an officer in a guild, I loved seeing some casual member suddenly connect, and say “who’s up for [insert a crazy, useless but fun, unexpected thing] ?”.
  Could be seen as satellites.

• The core … Hardcore gamers are, well, the core of the game. The ones who will make the self-marketing of the game by dedication. The ones who will prepare raids, prepare guild events, who will spend hours on deciding the best strategy on a web forum for a boss, a pvp match, or whatever. They’re the ones who will understand the combat mechanics so deeply, after having tried everything, even unintented stuff, that their opinion might be as valuable than a dev. They’re the ones who will find exploits by constantly harassing the system, and therefore help devs to correct them.

etc, etc …. you see the picture. Hardcore gamers are the pillar of a game.
And in my view, most studios are confusing both. They are putting what should be sattelites as pillars, and what should be pillars as sattelites.

And casuals shouldn’t feel offended by that, because it’s logical : the more you invest in something, the more important you are to it. Which doesn’t invalidate casuals value, as I wrote above.

But right now, for many years to be honest, I sincerely feel game studios have completely forgotten that hardcore audience.

Another mistake they make, is to think that what appeals to hardcore audience is grind. It’s not. Grinding is boring for everyone. What hardcore audience wants is depth. choices. expandability.

There is a fine line between hardcore players and OCD grind addicts, it’s wrong to assume they are the same people.
I got 1200 hours in, if you do the math is pretty much 7-8 hours/day but I’m not obsessed with the philosophy of “getting better stats through PvE so I don’t suck at PvP”, those are different people.
I’m actually very happy max gear is very easy to obtain and then it’s all about skins/fun.

The worst enemy of GW2 I think are players who want to out-gear others because they can’t out-skill them.
They want that grinding results in easy ownage of non-grinders, they want trinity so it frees them of responsibility in dungeons, they want no downscaling because they want to show “power” to mobs too, they want FFA in PvE zones so they can sit in Queensdale to kill lvl 5s, etc.
Luckily this kind of people tends to last very little in GW2, they realize skill>gear and there is no reward or feeling of omnipotence without good player skills, so they move to games where time equals power.

That’s how I see it.

kineticdamage.6279:

Ansultares.1567:

No.

In terms of the playerbase, it’s the lack of attention paid to role players that is this game’s worst enemy.

Well, that or the swing and a miss that is GW2 PvP.

Urvanis.2985:

Hardcore players are a minority, devs pamper to the masses. Every hardcore player could up and leave all at once, Anet wouldn’t even notice.

But everyone else would, and then many of them would start leaving, and eventually Anet would notice.

Who do you think makes the youtube videos, or the 3rd party sites, or maintains quality guilds?

Cloud.7613:

The casual players I know don’t care about content because they aren’t around long enough to see it all.

And that’s the danger of catering to casuals; they’re generally so not involved in the game that they’re unlikely to stick with it beyond when the next new shiny releases.

I hope devs see this post. Actually I hope every dev of every recent mmo see this post.
Because it’s the absolute truth, and the major problem of nowadays gaming, especially mmorpgs.

Like I wrote so many times here, MMO studios seem to forgot who really keep their game alive. And for sure it’s not the casual crowd.
(casual in my ears being people who play at a random pace, a few hours a week, and who leave the game under two monthes).

What I don’t understand is how even investors & management can’t even see that, as it’s even recognizable by growth numbers :
the games which started to grow aggressively did not expand the most during the “catering to casual audience” times. (also known as “broadening the audience” strategy, which should be banned from earth for the damage it has caused to the industry).
Nope, when you look at it, every game that became hugely popular went that route thanks to their ability to please a niche, during a sustained amount of time. They were different, and they did generally speak to highly dedicated players (= hardcore gamers). Then hardcore gamers created fansites, articles, created a whole parallel life for the game.
And then the casual crowd entered, being attracted by those fansites, by this hardcore gamer word-of-mouth, massively boosting growth numbers. Serious players having serious gaming credits talking serious about one game ? You bet it will attract less dedicated gamers, and it’s a good thing indeed.

Casuals and hardcore are complementary, hardcore motivating casuals, casuals taking hardcore back to earth.

But right now, mmo studios really seem to have taken the hierarchy backwards.

• Casuals are relax, cool people who will come and go from time to time, saying hello to guild, maybe do a daily or two, and then “see ya”. They’re essential in the sense that you will always be able to find a casual player to chill out, take a mini-ride with you, somewhere, sometime, when hardcores are too busy preparing stuff. When I was an officer in a guild, I loved seeing some casual member suddenly connect, and say “who’s up for [insert a crazy, useless but fun, unexpected thing] ?”.
  Could be seen as satellites.

• The core … Hardcore gamers are, well, the core of the game. The ones who will make the self-marketing of the game by dedication. The ones who will prepare raids, prepare guild events, who will spend hours on deciding the best strategy on a web forum for a boss, a pvp match, or whatever. They’re the ones who will understand the combat mechanics so deeply, after having tried everything, even unintented stuff, that their opinion might be as valuable than a dev. They’re the ones who will find exploits by constantly harassing the system, and therefore help devs to correct them.

etc, etc …. you see the picture. Hardcore gamers are the pillar of a game.
And in my view, most studios are confusing both. They are putting what should be sattelites as pillars, and what should be pillars as sattelites.

And casuals shouldn’t feel offended by that, because it’s logical : the more you invest in something, the more important you are to it. Which doesn’t invalidate casuals value, as I wrote above.

But right now, for many years to be honest, I sincerely feel game studios have completely forgotten that hardcore audience.

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy this at all.

You just took the rather extreme of two classifications of people. Not all casuals log in from day to day to do a daily or two and then…“see ya”

and not all of your “core” make videos, prepare events, and essentially sustain the rest of us…

You missed a rather large playerbase that fall somewhere in the middle, if thats the case. Catering to either one of the examples you posted would be a huge mistake in my opinion.

tic.7425:

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy this at all.

You just took the rather extreme of two classifications of people. Not all casuals log in from day to day to do a daily or two and then…“see ya”

and not all of your “core” make videos, prepare events, and essentially sustain the rest of us…

You missed a rather large playerbase that fall somewhere in the middle, if thats the case.

You can’t really have a precise vision of the debate if you put too many marks between one side and another. You get the idea … I’m not here to put 100 different labels on people. Just tried to explain why one side shouldn’t be left more than the other.

I looked it the other way around. All the hardcore content revolve around farming gold. If this game isn’t so cater to casual, it probably wont’ be that way.

Everything are designed so casual can do it, so anything hardcore became a massively gold grind for legendary or for example 250 ecto for infused ascended backpiece.

Hey! let the casual do everything. For the hardcore people we just make them farm money like crazy. I dont’ know, but that sounds silly.

You dont’ need to play 10 hours a day to have the max stats gear. At most maybe 30-40 minutes doing your daily a day.

And just because I’m hardcore and play 10 hours a day dont’ mean I enjoy farming the samething over and over again. I want to see interesting content.

Grumpdogg.6910:

Casual gamers are ruining GW2 with their resistance to DPS meters and fights with actual mechanics.

It’s not the resistance to the DPS meter that the problem, it’s the reliance on the DPS meter to dole out rewards that’s the problem. If I poison and bleed someone in real life, and it takes them 30 seconds to die, rather than instantly killing them by chopping their head off, does it change what loot they’re carrying? Does it change what they’re wearing? They’re just as dead. If I’m a guardian, using skills to buff my me team mates, does it change what the mob is carrying? How much damage you cause is not the same as how much effort you put in is not the same as how much you contribute. This is not a L2P issue or a build issue, it’s the fact the professions are imbalanced when it comes to damage, among other things. Many builds contribute to a fight in very important ways other than sheer DPS and currently they’re not rewarded properly for that? The loot should NOT depend on DPS, it’s too simple and nothing more than a crutch reward system. The way the reward system is now, anyone not playing a warrior is a fool, including myself, but I just don’t have it in me to level an alt.

The professions are grossly imbalanced when it comes to loot potential. If they ever offer a profession change kit, and I’m still playing, I’ll jump all over it.

Urvanis.2985:

Hardcore players are a minority, devs pamper to the masses. Every hardcore player could up and leave all at once, Anet wouldn’t even notice. If you haven’t noticed, this game, as do many other mainstream games have progression ceilings, things that can only be done at a certain rate, dailies, weeklies, monthlies. So no matter how many hours you sink into a game, your progression can only efficiency advance at a certain rate. Even farming has diminishing returns.

Its people like you who have caused developers to have to impose these measures. To see people complain even about this really confirms many of my thoughts about where the gaming industry is going.

I’m going to assume you only recently got into the mmo genre considering your perspective. So you don’t know the things people who spent a quarter, half, all of their day playing used to achieve over average players. Back when gamers in general were a minority, and when there were no progression ceilings.

btw, I work 50+ hours a week, and have no trouble keeping up with the progression cealing in this game with 15 hours a week gameplay.

Wise man, couldn’t say it better.

Interesting points from the OP. I think the constant balance to provide challenging content for hardcore players while not leaving more casual gamers behind is a tricky one to tackle.

The progression system in fractals seems like a step in the right direction and a good way to address the issue. It gives everyone access to the content, while still offering more hardcore players more of a challenge – with a slight reward for doing so (faster access to ascended gear and fractal weapons).

I also think it is a perspective issue. Power progression is so important in most other popular MMOs – to the point where it is the most important aspect of the game. While there is some power progression in GW2, it isnt the core premise of the game. Getting full exotic gear at 80 is simple. After that, everything is optional (VERY VERY slight bump with ascended trinkets and cosmetic changes to your character). Players (even hardcore) who take the idea of “fastest power progression possible” out of their mindset, have much more fun in the game. The game then becomes about experiencing the world of Tyria for casuals and seeing how hard they can push themselves (specifically in fractals and PvP) for hardcores.

Kakeru.2873:

GW2 is a casual centric game. Best casual MMO on the market atm.

Players that want any thing more than a casual experience will not be playing GW2

Colin sold us on the E-Sport idea. E-Sport is not for casual players. Not by a long shot.

Calae.1738:

Kakeru.2873:

GW2 is a casual centric game. Best casual MMO on the market atm.

Players that want any thing more than a casual experience will not be playing GW2

Colin sold us on the E-Sport idea. E-Sport is not for casual players. Not by a long shot.

While Kakeru has a point, yours is also very valid.

Which adds up to the now super long list of :
“They told this, now it’s that … What happened to Arena Net … ?”

Cloud.7613:

Hardcore players are actually less of a problem then casual players. The casual players I know don’t care about content because they aren’t around long enough to see it all. Hardcore players want content because the current game content is actually incredibly lacking when you look at it.

Really? While I don’t agree that hardcore players are necessarily a “problem,” exactly how are you making your point that casual players are a problem? So they may not stick around to see all the content, but how is that harming the game, exactly? Whatever your answer to that may be, I doubt the devs would agree with you. A casual player’s money is as good as any hardcore player’s money. Certain items in the gem store are even geared towards people with less time to play.

As far as hardcore players being a game’s worst enemy… well even if that was true, I would say that hardcore players’ obsessive passion is the game’s best friend. Their hours logged and their tendency to be vocal about perceived lack of game content really is an indication of how much they like the game. These players’ presence makes the world feel populated to other players, their participation makes the economy go round… I don’t think a game could survive without hardcore players. Yes they do complain and expect a lot, but that’s just the nature of the machine.

The game’s worst enemy are the type of players who want things that lead to inflation for the sake of inflation.

Whilst belittling casuals reveling their wanderlust is frowned upon, it is somehow okay to belittle ‘hardcore’ players.

You little hypocrites. flyswats

I am still of mind that these forms push Anet to put this game into odd boxes. First was the botting so Anet fixed it but in doing so kicked non botters and make loot harder to get. Then it was something to do in the level 80 game (your hardcore players) then we saw things like FOTM (well the high levels version of it the lower level of this are wroth running to at least see the different boss fights they are truly fun) so the raise of elitism came about and the thinking that every one should play one way.
My point is if you have 10 + threads on these forms about something you may get a reaction that is over done. Please think about how bad something needs to be fixed before you make it out to be the thing that will make every one quit. (Changes this now or i will quit, stop spending money, every one will quit in a month etc…)
Look at it this way if you lived some where that every time they made a small changes to something you would threaten to leave kill your self etc… would any thing ever get done because there are ppl out there who think the complete opposite you do with the same mind set.

Because the hardcore players demanded a gear grind? I’m pretty sure fractals was developed before the game was released and was planned to be implemented in November… If hardcore players wanted the end-game gear grind they could just pick up any other mmo on the market.

Like it or not…hardcore players make games active. Not all hardcore players want gear grind. Or does hardcore player=/= people who play a lot?

That is pretty much the worst part of EVERY mmo. The group of vocal people that all they do is bash the game. It’s happened in every mmo. They make mountains out of mole hills and everyone else believes them and listens with religious fervor.

The worst part of MMO’s is the people, but it can also be the best part of it.

The thing most developers don’t realize is you can never actually read the forums for the game you make. You get a false idea about what is broken and what works.

Form your own opinion, and stay away from the forums. That pretty much works with everyone.

heartless.6803:

That is pretty much the worst part of EVERY mmo. The group of vocal people that all they do is bash the game. It’s happened in every mmo. They make mountains out of mole hills and everyone else believes them and listens with religious fervor.

The worst part of MMO’s is the people, but it can also be the best part of it.

The thing most developers don’t realize is you can never actually read the forums for the game you make. You get a false idea about what is broken and what works.

Form your own opinion, and stay away from the forums. That pretty much works with everyone.

Luckily ANet is at least aware of that problem.
So they collect data and do stuff based on that. Content everyone is doing isn’t necessarily good but content nobody is doing is probably bad.

Also … http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Vocal_Minority

Back to the topic.
Hardcore people aren’t this game’s worst enemy.
Casual people aren’t this game’s worst enemy either.
Those labels are useless at describing the full range of players. At best they describe the extremists.

The game’s worst enemies are the people who complain about every little thing without ever considering the reasons for why things are done that way. If they don’t like it then it must be bad.

Calae.1738:

Colin sold us on the E-Sport idea. E-Sport is not for casual players. Not by a long shot.

Well that was obviously a lark.

Khisanth.2948:

The game’s worst enemies are the people who complain about every little thing without ever considering the reasons for why things are done that way.

The reasons usually aren’t obvious to players, and more often than not the reason is “because we ran out of time,” which while understandable isn’t worth defending.

Take this all with a grain of salt, but here is my opinion:

I started playing around the second month the game came out, and started working on my legendary. The only real money I used was for karma boosters from the gem store. I played the game as it was supposed to be played, and then some. I did the mystic toilet and got very very lucky, I spent ungodly amounts of hard earned gold on mats and such that I couldn’t grind out myself, and raised 2 crafts to max (actually have weaponsmith, armorsmith, leatherworker, cook, jeweller, and atificer all maxed), and finally got my twilight a few weeks ago. I consider that pretty hard core. And the game catered to that.