Guild Wars 2

OP, im not sure what the point of your post is.
Are you saying that its too difficult to get exotics?
Im confused

There is not much for a hardcore PvE’er to do in this game. By “hardcore”, I mean that there are players who have learned their Profession very well, and are working out the best builds for themselves and their static groups in order to optimize. However, there is nothing in the game that requires this level of skill in PvE.

Legendary is a really good endgame content. But IMO the bad thing with Legendary is.

1. . You can buy/sell. (It should be something that shows that you’ve done alot of different content to achieve it. Not only farming for gold)

1. Achievable by soloing.

What GW2 is lacking is ‘’Grouping-hardcore endgame’‘.
It lacks content where you need to have a good like-minded guild, where you progress together to learn how to beat that boss for example. To get that kind of awesome looking armor only achievable by really hard endgame whre communication through the group is almost a must. Sure soloers should have their endgame. But this far, I havent really felt that guild is something important. It’s more like a social group to learn to know each other, nothing more.

tldr; This game is too easy/casual. We need proper hardcore endgame too. Not something you almost can sleep through. Farming the same thing over and over agains is not hardcore.

Hardcore vs Casual labels and such aside (since everyone seems to have their own definition):

• Content Locusts (the ones who consume content at a faster rate than it can be produced) are a developer’s nightmare. This is the reason we have ‘grind’ (repetitive tasks).

• Core Player-base (the ones who stick with the game) are the ones who make the game prosper, since their more likely to buy stuff / introduce friends to the game. These can be people who play 5 hours a week or 5 hours a day, but they tend to dedicate themselves to that game for a long time.

• Tourists (the ones who hop from MMO to MMO) are less likely to invest money into a game they don’t invest time into. They’ll prolly play for a few months, do everything before moving onto another game while content is being developed for other games.

I think we have different ideas of what Hardcore means…..I also think there are many definitions to “Hardcore”

I’d consider myself a “hardcore” player by my definition. which would be someone

• Who devotes a lot of time to gaming / their MMO of choice
• Complete’s content at an excelled rate in comparison to “casual” or “average” players
• Enjoy’s challenges and hard content

Let’s get this clear : Even though I consider myself a “hardcore” player, I never wanted a gear grind. I just wanted hard-to-do bosses and better skins/cosmetics. SO the people who say “hardcore players wanted a gear grind” couldn’t be farther from the truth.

I wouldn’t consider GW2 hardcore friendly because :

• There are no challenges or challenging content. The things I complete are the same things Casual or “Average” players can complete.
• It’s very gold oriented. Something like a Legendary is bought, which makes it not worthy of being called a Legendary (unless we’re talking about your ingame wallet)
• Not enough cosmetic prestigious rewards for high risk situations, it feels like a Currency Grind. I wish there were cool cosmetics for people “completing the impossible” such as hard content (that doesn’t currently exist, but if it did!) – I want more cool skins for defeating something hard, that’s all.
• They try too hard to appeal to Casuals (and I’m sure some casuals will say they try too hard to appeal to Hardcore players), there is little to no content for hardcore players (that isn’t a grind, which I wouldn’t consider hardcore, just annoying) because everyone is equal and a lot of content feels “dumbed down” for a lack of a better word. (IE: Dragons, Dungeons, World Events in general are all very easy and can be done by Zerging).

I wouldn’t consider someone who does nothing but grind money all day as “hardcore”, unless you put the word “farmer” after it.

On another note, I think “Hardcore” players play an important role in Games as much as casuals do. Casual’s come and go, but hardcore players devote a good chunk of their time to playing the game, more-so than a Casual ever would or will. In addition, Hardcore players don’t usually devote themselves to more than one MMO at a time (due to their investments), where as a Casual may be more inclined to jump between MMOs or try new things. Both sides are equally as fussy, angsty and full of complaints – in my opinion. They just complain about different things.

If anything, I think this games worst enemy are the Developers and the higher ups pulling the strings. They should hold their ground more and listen a little bit better.

some really great responses in here, but I think i’ll have to be a bit less elaborate

Elitists and those that exclude others from activities are bad, we should never encourage it, sadly it HAS happened and hasn’t been addressed.

“Casual” players, ie terribad lazy muppets and not the actual casual players who are limited in time, are just as bad on the opposite end of the spectrum, those that would auto attack their way through a dungeon, clicking on their skills and keyboard turning, shows that the game hasn’t helped the player to come to better conclusions of how to play and shows they’ve reached the conclusion that the best way to “play your way” is to do so at others expense in terms of input.

Aegis.9724:

The thing is, dedicated players are the reason MMOs live and prosper. Casual players, especially in a game like gw2, tend to leave and return from time to time.

This couldn’t be more wrong. The hardcore are a small minority. The vast majority are people who can’t afford playing a game 8 hours a day, those who pay for the MMORPG the hardcore play are the casual. That’s true in GW2, but that’s also true in all other MMORPG, including the “mighty” WoW. Blizzard understood that well by adding more and more casual content to their game, last being the raid finder, allowing to see the raid content without having to schedule several evenings per week around a video game like if it was a second job.

Fact is, without casuals to pay the majority of the developer’s bills, the hardcore would have no game at all to play.

Also, the belief that casuals “come and go” couldn’t be more wrong. When they find a good game they enjoy, they will stay for a long time. Actually, since they consume content slower than the “8 hours a day” hardcores, they will take longer until they finished it. When a hardcore will have 3 level 80 and be bored, a casual will just have finished his first 80 and will start to equip him and do some level 80 content, along with rolling his first alt.

Hardcore are those who constantly complain that they have no content, when they actually burned themself out of the game. Not casuals.

Korrigan.4837:

Aegis.9724:

The thing is, dedicated players are the reason MMOs live and prosper. Casual players, especially in a game like gw2, tend to leave and return from time to time.

This couldn’t be more wrong. The hardcore are a small minority. The vast majority are people who can’t afford playing a game 8 hours a day, those who pay for the MMORPG the hardcore play are the casual. That’s true in GW2, but that’s also true in all other MMORPG, including the “mighty” WoW. Blizzard understood that well by adding more and more casual content to their game, last being the raid finder, allowing to see the raid content without having to schedule several evenings per week around a video game like if it was a second job.

Fact is, without casuals to pay the majority of the developer’s bills, the hardcore would have no game at all to play.

And yet 99% of the people I know who left the game, did so because raid finder was a great idea, so badly implemented that it forced them into the conclusion that standard level raiding was completely pointless and obsolete.

The company also released raid finder, with the statement that not everyone was experiencing the content they created for in raids and thus is was an answer to that issue, then went ahead and still made firelands ( a fantastic dungeon) completely and utterly obsolete, no… casual players must get to the END and RIGHT NOW! and even though they could click a scale in the city to see the ending they would have the RIGHT to experience it, in a manner that could only be ridiculously TROLLED into failure…

When people talk about raid finder as a success, it makes me wonder just how little people understand about the games themselves. As well as simple logic.

LFR could have been epic, instead it was a huge joke and a bone of contention that caused many to leave as suddenly it was pointless to play on the content they had chosen to stick to.

So some hardcore you know left because nobody wanted to play with them anymore and commit 3+ hours 3+ nights a week to a video game, with all the loot drama and other problems going with it, when they no longer had to and could experience the content another way?

Thanks, Mr “Hellkaiser” – you just proved my point. Much obliged.

A lot of former GW1 players I knew have left this game. I sense that GW2 is pretty much a doomed game for GW1 players.

tic.7425:

Anyone who plays more than me is hardcore, spends half their life in the game, and (obviously) has no life..

Anyone who plays less than me is casual, and wants everything handed to them on a silver platter.

Huzzah!!11!!!one

Haha, yep. It’s not as relevant with GW as it is with other games but you forgot that; Anyone who is better at a game than be is an elitist and anyone who isn’t as good is a bad.

I have 9 level 80 characters, i’ve spent over 1700 hours in this game, i have 0 Legendaries and i do not care at all about new content, sure its nice to get new stuff but the game is suffering for it…

I care about rewards right through this game being bias and obsolete (mostly due to Ascended and the failure that a tiered/gated system brings, my opinion) but still the loot is bad through 99% of this game..

I care about unbalanced gameplay and classes, warriors owning dungeons thieves and mesmers owning wvw etc… Consumables and exploits breaking wvw Engineers and rangers not being fixed after 6 months!

I care about a Trading post that’s the most poorly run thing i’ve ever seen, disgusting antics designed to screw over the playerbase left for too long..

And i care about bugs broken traits, stupidly hard dungeons for no reason and the list of broken game breaking things that i deal with day in and days out, and its not just me…

Content is the least of my issues in Guildwars 2..

Hardcore in dumb-friendly, casual MMO? Such people really exist in this game?

Korrigan.4837:

So some hardcore you know left because nobody wanted to play with them anymore and commit 3+ hours 3+ nights a week to a video game, with all the loot drama and other problems going with it, when they no longer had to and could experience the content another way?

Thanks, Mr “Hellkaiser” – you just proved my point. Much obliged.

Not half biased there Mr Korrigan.

And that’s NOT what I said, it made people look at the reality of the raid environment, should they bother with the content on normal when it was obsolete? the difference between LFR and the effort of logistics and preparation meant that for the meager stat differences, and the fact it was an EXTRA lockout, added to the fact that they also counted for set bonuses. Led to many deeming normal raiding as pointless unless you were in a hurry to get geared, if you didn’t want hardcore why get normal mode gear anyways, you had LFR and that was normal without all the hassle for pretty much the same rewards and half the mechanics turned off that would gib you. it was the height of spoon feeding and it was INSULTING to consider THAT as what “casual” means.

Once this was established, and all the flaws were pointed out and not much was done, many decided that this wasn’t the game they signed on for and left, these weren’t “hardcore” they weren’t doing the highest tier of the game, they were middle of the road raiders enjoying themselves that just suddenly had their content TRIVIALIZED as if their effort was pointless. As for the loot drama, they only further exacerbated that by further messing up stat priorities later on in MOP. One sure as hell reason why I will not return to the game.

People seem to have different views, especially those who are casual themselves. Hardcore doesn’t mean plays all day only stopping to kitten in milk a jug. Usually hardcore logs on, works on player/guild progression and logs off. Casuals on the other hand spend all day playing and accomplish jack kitten. Hardcore players have goals and objectives they work for in a play session.

TL;DR
Only reason people think hardcore gamer’s play 8-12 plus hours a day, is because casuals play that much and have nothing to show for.

In this game, they are the enemy. In a subscriber-based game, they are part of the motivation to keep adding content (thus making the game a better value for everyone). GW2 is (or was?) meant to be a casual game with challenging content, and several ways for people to enjoy themselves. What happened was the kitten showoffs flocked here so they could work (WORK) really hard to be the best-est and biggest show-off in a new game (there were too many other uber players in their other game, making them less special). Using techniques learned from other grindfest’s, the quickly reached the end of the road, and every day more and more people are reaching the same level as them… once again, they are getting less and less “special”, and they can’t STAND that! So, either they leave (we hope!) for another game where they can tie in their self-worth to their characters status, or they scream and complain that there is nothing to do here.

Every time I see someone run by with a legendary, I feel sad for them. They have rocketed through the game and now what? Sure, there are certainly some who got it via normal play (and most of them will claim that), but so many got it via what I consider a really unhealthy playstyle. Anonymity, envy, a poor sense of self-worth, too much free time, neglect for the real world, and a desperate desire to be admired all conspire to different degree’s in the quest for video game pride.

Pirlipat.2479:

I think that this speed consuming way to play games is a threat, not for the game in general, but for the aspects I like in this game. There are so many really cool things to explore, to see, to experience and I really wonder if many people actually enjoy those.

You can discover a zone by really exploring it or by running from one point to another, not recognising anything, doing all the hearts not even knowing who they are, jump from vista to the next skillpoint challenge, fast, fast, fast… At the end all content is done and people are demanding for more, more shinies, more reward more, more more.

I’ve really wondered why developers in MMOs make the effort to write questlines and to make a living world when people seem to be happy with click, check, run and gain “reward.”

The consequence mostly is that content gets artificially elongated by needing insane amounts of mats or time or other things, just to keep people occupied to the game.

QFE. If people would chill out a little, there is so much to do. The problem is, they have been trained from previous games to look only at what the game developers have coded for content. There is a whole lot of ‘content’ to be enjoyed from socializing with your fellow gamers. Content that has little to do with RNG, loot, efficiency, or shinies. The game is called “Guild” Wars, after all (yeah, I’m not exactly sure how to explain the second word). You can’t blame the power-gamers too much. Like I said, they have been trained to do this. It’s just sad to think about all the real, human interaction and potential friendships they have been missing out on. These things are a force multiplier for fun in any game. Running around a starter zone that you are sick-to-death of can become quite fun if you are doing it with a group of friends.

Hardcores are not this game’s worst enemies. Casuals are not this game’s worst enemies. This games worst enemies are labelers. It isn’t hardcores or casuals throwing insults, its people insisting on labels.We’re all players (or forum watchers in some cases).

I’d probably be labelled a casual by inclination. However, I see both sides of many issues. I empathize with a lot of the concerns expressed by so-called hardcores and some expressed by the so-called casuals.

Even within the catch-alls of the labels there is a lot of variation in opinion and desires. Labeling is dangerous. They makes us think we know how others think. We’re often wrong.

If we focused more on some empathy for people’s issues, we might see past the labels. But, I guess this will happen when pigs fly.

I’m a pretty casual player of this game myself, so, I suppose I’ll toss in my two cents.

I’ve pretty much never played only one MMO at a time. Granted, I’ve only been playing MMOs for maybe two years or something now, so. I suppose that could be attributed to me trying to find one that is the least bad in my eyes. Now, I am a rather firm opponent to grinding, as well, as I feel it cheapens the overall enjoyment of the game by tacking a few zeros at the end of everything. I like challenge, not tedium. But I digress. As a casual player, I feel that GW2 is one of the more approachable MMOs I’ve played. I play games that I find fun, and GW2? It’s pretty fun. Now, that isn’t to say that it isn’t without flaws. The “encouraging” of the playerbase to participate in WvW is a little annoying to me, but, I suppose if the game is supposed to be about PvP, then whatever. I can brush that off.

Now, I can kind of see why the more “hardcore” players with more time invested in the game could feel a little bit cheated. I play maybe five hours in a typical week or something, and I have achieved quite a bit compared to someone who puts, say, 20 hours a week or higher. Now, as a casual player, this doesn’t bother me at all. I don’t think people who have more time to play should be in any better of a position than anyone else in a purely gameplay standpoint. Games that have super-powerful gear that you can only get by wasting millions of gold on enchanting (ala TERA) end up creating a rather annoying kind of playerbase. Elitist, entitled “l2playnoob” kind of people that ostracize you for asking a legitimate question. I compare it to Communism, in a sense. Everybody is on the same level regardless of inputted time. I’m fine with that. That isn’t to say that I think that people who put insurmountable amount of time into a game shouldn’t have more than I do, but, I’m biased. I don’t have time to put into this game, and I appreciate that I can still compete.

Really, I don’t think anyone is “ruining” this game besides some sort of perceived entitlement everyone has to having the game completely catered to their demands. The Developers obviously have some sort of a goal in mind, so, I say just let it play out. You’re not ruining the game for anyone but yourself if you constantly complain about everything. Just have fun. It’s a game. That’s the point of games, right?

here’s a flaw with your argument.

what do you define as hardcore, and what do you define as casual?

the demographic of players is so large that it’s impossible to shoehorn everyone into either camp.

there are players who play many hours a day, enjoying themselves by exploring the world, reading the lore, trying to find all the little things. but aren’t interested in improving their gear or get a legendary or whatever.

are those players hardcore?

then there are the players who do the same as the above player, but do not commit as much time daily.

are these players casual?

there is definitely the stereotypical ‘hardcore’ gamer who logs tremendous hours and grinds and grinds and grinds to get that one shiny, or bunch of shinys in as few days as possible.

the same as there is the stereotypical ‘casual’ player who logs few hours, and is content with doing mostly ‘enrichment’ stuff like reading the lore, playing with their character dyes and going around trying to find a look for their character they really like, etc.

but those don’t make up the full demographic of gw2 players. i’m going to go out on a limb and say even combined, both camps make up a minority of players.

i think you’re simplifying matters by attributing complaints (some of which are pretty valid) to the player’s playstyle.

personally, as a player, i don’t considering myself either hardcore or casual. i have a job and i have to balance other things going on in my life. so i don’t log many hours in the game. but when i do play, i tend to be a ‘power gamer’. i don’t stop to admire the scenary, or take in as much lore as i can, etc. i go in, do dailies, do dungeons, get what i want, bang, bang, job’s done. log out.

and that is fun for me. and it’s ENOUGH for me for now.

but just because i don’t log much time doesn’t mean i can’t tell that (let’s be honest) combat really is lacking in this game. most pve encounters even in dungeons are kinda tired. for me, lupi in arah is the only boss that really gets my blood up. and even for him, the fight boils down to doing as much damage as you can as fast as possible, and dodging red circles and big telegraphed attacks. (which is really stupid because the red circles are, you know, red, and dodging them is important, yet a-net has no option for colorblind players, meaning they can’t play most of, if not all of the more challenging content. but i digress.)

you don’t have to be a ‘hardcore’ player to see where the ‘hardcore’ complaints are coming from.

and using ad hominem reasoning like ‘you think there is nothing to do because you’re hardcore, play all day and have exhausted everything there is to do’ cheapens many valid points raised, and is just dismissive and abrasive at the same time.

Toxophile.6215:

It’s just sad to think about all the real, human interaction and potential friendships they have been missing out on.

What makes you think they’re not finding that?

In general, its the casuals I’ve come across who are anti-social (TOR was the worst in this regard), unless you’re willing to sit and stroke their egos.

Odd, how that works.

Casual players are quite anti social from my experience. They never talk. In a hardcore PVP guild we’re talking about class balance, pvp tactics, strategies, min maxing character builds.

Your average joe six pack casual cares more about the color of the item he just got from opening the chest than anything else.

Hate to sound like a jerk here but I will about one of your points. When I’m playing a game OP I expect that game to be fun, challenging and entertaining otherwise I’m quite literally just wasting my time.

I will admit maybe I do spend too much time gaming, but it is by choice and I do other things go hang out with friends work etc. I don’t have a family of my own so maybe that’s why I have more free time to game then most. Although I know I have the stereotype of basement nerd it’s unavoidable, it doesn’t really bother me.

If a gaming company wants me as customer than I want a good product that I can really sink my teeth into and play for a long time, after all I don’t want to spend a long time building up a character just to throw it away because I have nothing to do after a few months. Also I don’t tend to stick around if the content doesn’t seem to be interesting enough to bother.

Oddly enough the same argument you pose against “hardcore” gamers could also be said of “casual” gamers. IMO they have to dumb down games and make them so easy for the masses that they’re aren’t many challenging games out there anymore. Perfect example of this is grinding, obviously this is not hard to do in any game but it’s one of the few things developers can do that sort of appeases everyone. It works for casual players because its easy and you can do it a little at a time, while it works for hardcore players because it takes forever or at least an unreasonably long time to complete an otherwise super easy objective.

Anyways just my two cents I don’t play anymore but still visit the forums, got more use out of them than I ever did the game.

“Are hardcore players this games worst enemy?”

I’d say “No!”, thats the fanboys dept.

Hardcore players are the bain of MMos – and I personally despise most of them. The problem is, isn’t really to do with being a hardcore player, but the attitude of one. The average hardcore playing simply puts more time into playing the game than say, a casual or core player – thats fine. I’m a hardcore player too, I know alot of hardcore players – most of decent people, however..

The problem is when they start to demand more and more – they demand significant changes to the game, often at the expense of casual/core players. Quite often, developers decide to fall into the HC trap and cater for these players, and that is when MMo’s show the first signs of death. I could list a metric crap ton of MMos which developers listened to Hardcore/Elitist players and the game rapidly went down hill shortly afterwards. So really, the name hardcore player isn’t really the correct name to use for them – lets use the classic wow term and called them Elitist Jerks.

Alot HCs are the players who feel the most self entitled and often look down on casuals/core players as being inferior or unworthy. I’ve often done battle against Hardcore players in various games and communities – because honestly, in the end – they are bad for anytype of MMo unless the game is aimed at the hardcore market to begin with. Essentially put, pitting casuals vs hardcores is never a good idea.

I’ve seen some truly bitter forums wars, especially during the classic WoW period which really started the whole casual vs hardcore debates.

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Hardcore players are the bain of MMos – and I personally despise most of them. The problem is, isn’t really to do with being a hardcore player, but the attitude of one.

And the attitude you display here isn’t at least equally despicable?

Nokaru.7831:

There is not much for a hardcore PvE’er to do in this game. By “hardcore”, I mean that there are players who have learned their Profession very well, and are working out the best builds for themselves and their static groups in order to optimize. However, there is nothing in the game that requires this level of skill in PvE.

This. The issue in its entirety.

We don’t need another 100 dungeons. Just a handful with that sort of depth in mind. Hell just one. FOTM is just… agony?

I agree to disagree… What gives anyone the right to judge and criticize people that have more time than others to play a game which none forced anyone to play it. The fact some people can play 12h a day and some 2h a day has nothing to do with anything cause both kinds are equally important in a game.
Dedicated player or not , Hardcore player or Casual it doesnt matter…why you like to put signs above people’s head and blame them cause they do what they do just because they can…
Sure i believe in freedom of speech and expressing ones opinion but the way i received this message was as a text pure of jealousy and hate towards people that have the time and found the way to do what other people cant, for whatever the reason…
And correct me if im wrong…a player that has 2h of gameplay everyday but 5,10,15 guildmates or just people in his friendlist that can help him anytime with his gameplay , can be hardcore.
Its not how many hours you play but rather what you do with the time you have to do it.

It’s a game people not real life ^^
Have fun all and stop analyzing every little thing

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Hardcore players are the bain of MMos – and I personally despise most of them. The problem is, isn’t really to do with being a hardcore player, but the attitude of one. The average hardcore playing simply puts more time into playing the game than say, a casual or core player – thats fine. I’m a hardcore player too, I know alot of hardcore players – most of decent people, however..

The problem is when they start to demand more and more – they demand significant changes to the game, often at the expense of casual/core players. Quite often, developers decide to fall into the HC trap and cater for these players, and that is when MMo’s show the first signs of death. I could list a metric crap ton of MMos which developers listened to Hardcore/Elitist players and the game rapidly went down hill shortly afterwards. So really, the name hardcore player isn’t really the correct name to use for them – lets use the classic wow term and called them Elitist Jerks.

Alot HCs are the players who feel the most self entitled and often look down on casuals/core players as being inferior or unworthy. I’ve often done battle against Hardcore players in various games and communities – because honestly, in the end – they are bad for anytype of MMo unless the game is aimed at the hardcore market to begin with. Essentially put, pitting casuals vs hardcores is never a good idea.

I’ve seen some truly bitter forums wars, especially during the classic WoW period which really started the whole casual vs hardcore debates.

That’s absurd. I don’t see casual players or newcomers as inferior the only difference is that I have more time and so it’s a good opportunity to help them giving advice, helping with anything I can and do all the boring bits of running a guild,

Hardcore does not equal Elitist and I’m certainly not a jerk. I’ve been one of the ones opposed to the attitude of for example the whole ‘Level 80, speed run & exploit’ crowd who refuse to take certain professions or people without the right gear/level (and a lot of them are casual players).

Nor have I demanded anything other than wanting to see bugfixes and UI improvements mostly. Things to improve the community and the game as a whole. Not ‘GIEF ME NEW CONTENT’ Your theory is moot and hypocritic. You call people ‘decent’ and then ‘elitist jerks’ right after and if anything it’s condescending/insulting.

Hardcore gamers are any game’s worst enemy for several reasons:

- hardcore gamers are a minority by default. It is not possible to be good at videogames with less than 12 hours per day. For 80% of people that’s impossible to reach (given current unemployment figures).

-> hardcore gamers usually don’t pay for microtransactions and gems while casual gamers do. There are two reasons for this:
—- Hardcore gamers feel that pay2win is a bad thing because it lessens the value of “work” they put into the game.
—- Casual gamers feel they want to invest in their hobby, and have the means to do so.

People with jobs often have pet projects such as an oldtimer kitcar, extensive collection of match boxes, an expensive race bike or a legendary weapon. Often these items are rarely if ever used to their fullest effect.

As such I strongly believe that casual gamers and hardcore gamers don’t mix well, simply because one group wants to spend money on things the other group considers despicable. It is as if Garry Kasparov would look down on 1100 ELO people who buy a crystal chess set for their living room.

This attitude only exists in MMOs and I don’t understand why we, as casual gamers, accept that.

marnick.4305:

It is not possible to be good at videogames with less than 12 hours per day.

You can’t be serious here, right?

Back when I was raiding in WoW, 4 nights a week for 4 hours, and we were number one guild on our server clearing all the heroic raid content, it was still 16 hours… per week. Add to this the same amount to farm for materials for food, enchants and gold, and you get to 32 hours per week, which is like 4:40 hours per day. The non-raid stuff was mostly done during week ends too.

Playing well and playing hardcore as in 8+ hours a day is something totally different. People who play well don’t need to play hardcore.

Korrigan.4837:

marnick.4305:

It is not possible to be good at videogames with less than 12 hours per day.

You can’t be serious here, right?

Back when I was raiding in WoW, 4 nights a week for 4 hours, and we were number one guild on our server clearing all the heroic raid content, it was still 16 hours… per week. Add to this the same amount to farm for materials for food, enchants and gold, and you get to 32 hours per week, which is like 4:40 hours per day. The non-raid stuff was mostly done during week ends too.

Playing well and playing hardcore as in 8+ hours a day is something totally different. People who play well don’t need to play hardcore.

Excuse me the obvious hyperbole. But still, the best in videogames are the ones who spend the most time ingame. The question is simply how they influence people who spend less time. Whether you spend 4 hours a day or 12 doesn’t change the fact that it is an extreme amount of time to spend behind a screen.

Playing an average of 4:40 hours per day is beyond hardcore. Having an average of 4:40 hours per day behind your screen is not compatible with having a life. Normal people would be happy to log in for 2 hours, 3 times a week. Even that could be a stretch at times, so people like me fill that gap with gems.

Let’s be very clear here. To me, anyone who manages to spend more than 2 hours a day on a videogame consistently, is making a hardcore time commitment. Even more so if you’re spending the weekends behind your monitor instead of with loved ones. I don’t really mind, as long as you don’t mind me matching your time with gems. I will get my Quip eventually. I won’t farm all the gold for it.

Videogames isn’t the only thing I cut back on in order to have a real life. I do triathlons, but I refuse to do the Ironman distance since it requires 6 hours of training a day. Impossible. I’m happy my Ironman friends don’t look down on me for making that choice. I only wish the same choice could be made in MMOs. Lucky for me, in GW2 I can.

OK! I read a lot of this thread and ‘skimmed’ a bit. For the most part the comments are considered and appropriate.

Before I go on, I just wanted to respond to this;

‘I know some players spend so much time in game because of disability, forced spare time etc but it doesn’t mean devs in one game need to develop the game to keep them interested all that time’

Now then! Though I do not consider any part of this an insult, I do think it to be somewaht misinformed! I fall in the ‘disability’ part of this. I am disabled and I do play GW2. I play when I feel ‘up to it’ and have the spare time (mostly evenings). I can play for hours but only if I take lots of breaks as I have lots of pain if sitting using my PC – even for a short time.

I think the main point here though is that a player of any game is not made ‘hardcore’ or otherwise by the length of time played. Some people, fully able or disabled in some way simply play against the virtual world! Those players maybe explore or craft or do tasks in game that some may find less … tasking (sic). Others in game play the content that is seen by some as more taxing such as ‘dungeons’ or ‘raids’ but can still be less than ‘hardcore’!

Though I think that there are some fair points being made in this thread regarding the definitions of players as ‘hardcore’ or ‘casual’ or other, sometimes, it is all too easy to ‘pigeon hole’ a player based on thier experience, playstyle, available playtime or other factors and this can be very misinformed, unfair, sometimes elitist and cause unwarranted splits in the gaming community.

The question asked is a little unfair and a little provocative. Why single out ‘hardcore’? The question could be applied to just about any ‘subset’ of players.

I have more to add but I am running late for an appointment – if I get time later today I may continue with this.

Dante.1508:

I have 9 level 80 characters, i’ve spent over 1700 hours in this game, i have 0 Legendaries and i do not care at all about new content, sure its nice to get new stuff but the game is suffering for it…

I care about rewards right through this game being bias and obsolete (mostly due to Ascended and the failure that a tiered/gated system brings, my opinion) but still the loot is bad through 99% of this game..

I care about unbalanced gameplay and classes, warriors owning dungeons thieves and mesmers owning wvw etc… Consumables and exploits breaking wvw Engineers and rangers not being fixed after 6 months!

I care about a Trading post that’s the most poorly run thing i’ve ever seen, disgusting antics designed to screw over the playerbase left for too long..

And i care about bugs broken traits, stupidly hard dungeons for no reason and the list of broken game breaking things that i deal with day in and days out, and its not just me…

Content is the least of my issues in Guildwars 2..

Excellent post and describes my point of pretty well. I couldn’t care less about special events like the Winter’s day, but I care about doing pve and WvWvW (pvp is dead). I have 8 characters (one each profession), but I haven’t invested as many hours to the game. So far I got only three level 80s, but several are level 64-68.

I think it is futile to blame casual or hard core gamers. A really successful game needs both:
- casual gamers are the majority, but they are more likely change into another game
- hard core gamers are the ones behind many guides and web sites, which the casual gamers are also using. They promote the game to their friends, thus expanding the gamer base

Most players fall in between. World is not black nor white, but shades of gray. Neither type are the problem. The problem are people who are trying to find exploits and then abuse them. People who try to sabotage the group work of others are a problem. The people who use bots are a problem. Winning at any cost seems to be a major problem in WvWvW, examples: use of consumables, placing siege in locations where it is invulnerable, night capping, staying in stealth forever by hitting the enemy wall. A referee system might partially solve this problem, but most of these problems could be avoided simply by programming the game so that they are not possible in the first place.

From Anet’s point of view the biggest importance is of course money. I think in the long the best income comes via the gem shop. In the MMORPG world, especially free MMORPGs, most gamers don’t pay at all or pay very little. Most of the income comes from gamers called “whales”. Each whale might spend several thousands on a game. Thus in order to be financially successful, a free-to-play game should appeal to whales. Blaming the whales or making their life feel miserable is a really bad thing.

From my point of view, the biggest problems are:
- game balance issues (certain professions and weapon combinations and skills being so good majority uses them)
- lack of rewards (especially in WvWvW or defeating champions, totally illogical treasure drops)
- the Anet developer’s lack of communication

I have suggested this before: Anet should reward its employers for each good post by on these forums. Maybe give them $50 and a badge of good communication. Let the people know about your plans, tell us why there is a delay.

Neither casual nor hard core gamers like bugs or enjoy repetitive game-play, where only few choices are feasible. More variety is better for both groups.

Please don’t blame casual or hard core gamers here. Some might classify me into the latter group, but I am happy to teach a complete newcomer into the secrets of WvWvW or show how to do a dungeon run or help to do some difficult skill points or vistas or reply the silly questions.

Deniara

I had written out a lenghty post rebutting this trollbait thread, but the forum mods apparently won’t tolerate any dissonnance.

Here’s the concise version that may or may not get deleted again:

GW2 is already a game for casuals, where you have no way to elevate yourself above the next guy in line. Saying that “hardcore people with no lives” are the industry’s worst enemy is downright asinine.

You’re not doing anyone any favours, including yourself, by not being critical and generally being content with less. That is what leads to shiny, high profile AAA titles that go about skin deep. So really, you have it all backwards.

marnick.4305:

- hardcore gamers are a minority by default. It is not possible to be good at videogames with less than 12 hours per day. For 80% of people that’s impossible to reach (given current unemployment figures).

It’s a mindset, not an actual measure of time spent playing the game.

People have pointed out in this thread that a casual could spend all day playing the game and have nothing to show for it.

I’ve known plenty of “hardcore” players who play on notionally “casual” schedules.

Sigdur.4025:

Grevender.9235:

Lifeless nerds are beyond logic, and they are a cluster of immense zergs which literally devour every bit on the game with a neverending hunger that cannot be satisfied no matter how they struggle.

Sometimes I get upset about the poor decisions I’ve made that have ultimately lead to a lifestyle devoid of glamour, wealth, and fame. I, too, mock anonymous faces on official gaming forums to ease this empty feeling.

I am a Shadow, the True Self!

@Mernick.

Weather your casual or hardcore pay2win should not be anywhere in a game. If your going to pay to win how about you just do us all a favor, don’t bother playing at all, because you are effectively not playing anyways.

You don’t see a pay to win option in the Olympic games do you? Not quite the same type of game but the point is your supposed to be playing fair and winning because your good and learned how to win after putting in the time, not because you threw 800 bucks at it.

skotie.2614:

@Mernick.

Weather your casual or hardcore pay2win should not be anywhere in a game. If your going to pay to win how about you just do us all a favor, don’t bother playing at all, because you are effectively not playing anyways.

You don’t see a pay to win option in the Olympic games do you? Not quite the same type of game but the point is your supposed to be playing fair and winning because your good and learned how to win after putting in the time, not because you threw 800 bucks at it.

You can’t compare Olympic games to Guild Wars 2. For one thing, there’s no way to win in this game, not really, except for PvP. And you can’t buy anything that will affect PvP.

WvW is a different matter, but again, you can’t really pay to win it. The most powerful stuff in the game isn’t for sale on the trading post, you have to get it in game yourself. Same with dungeon armors.

But the rest of PVe, being cooperative, if someone next to you has better gear, they’re HELPING your game. You don’t need to compete with those people.

What’s the point of comparing a competitive game to a non-competitive one?

I feel like a Hall of Monuments type thing would be good for this game. I know it gave players some incentive to reach out and do things in GW1. For example, I spent lots of time and money reaching out for different aesthetic armor sets in GW1 because they looked cool and made my character feel kitten, and because I could put them on the wall in the HoM to see what I had done and what I had left to do. As titles came, my hall upgraded, and near the end, I got a playful Rainbow Phoenix for my ranger character. Just little things like that with titles and whatnot.

It’s kinda like the “Been there, done that” title, where you get to flaunt your playtimes to other players. GW1 was very much title based and titles did carry some merit. I’d like to see this kinda thing expanded for the player.

Elitists are the game’s worst enemy because they exclude by default and want to twist the game to the way they play. The worst are the ones that have exploited, and the exploit fix, and want to secure their advantage by shutting everyone else out.

Hardcore players are not. They are frequently the reason why games survive for many years. They’re the reason why you can buy anything on the TP without it running out every 10 minutes. They’re the ones that carry newbies from content the first time around, or make boss runs go easier. They’re the ones that buy the low level mats from new players so they can create alts. They’re the ones that have mapped out the math for the game, so we can all conduct more qualified analysis about mechanics and decide how to balance and change things, as well as producing guides that people like myself are too lazy to figure out.

I would say though that high end content should be catered to hardcore players simply because they’ll be the only ones there anyways. If you don’t do this, then you’ll run into issues where people will just have nowhere to go, eventually.

It’s not just a hardcore/casual dichotomy. Just like how casuals get blamed for “dumbing down” games, when all the want to do is have fun. It’s actually the scrubs that have failed, are too lazy to think of another way that don’t want everyone else to have fun that cause problems. And I guess that should really be it with the stereotypes… In the end, realize that everyone has different needs, and the idea of balanced and fun should not be viewed in a narrow context.

Hardcore vs Casual is a common issue for all MMOs. I think GW2 deals with it better than other games have.

I like that the dungeons, specifically FotM (anyone else find it funny that this also stands for Flavor of the Month?) are aimed at the hardcore players. Knowing this steers me away from the dungeons, since I’m more of a casual player.

Each type of players’ desires bring something different to the game, which is a good thing.

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

There is a fine line between hardcore players and OCD grind addicts, it’s wrong to assume they are the same people.
I got 1200 hours in, if you do the math is pretty much 7-8 hours/day but I’m not obsessed with the philosophy of “getting better stats through PvE so I don’t suck at PvP”, those are different people.
I’m actually very happy max gear is very easy to obtain and then it’s all about skins/fun.

The worst enemy of GW2 I think are players who want to out-gear others because they can’t out-skill them.
They want that grinding results in easy ownage of non-grinders, they want trinity so it frees them of responsibility in dungeons, they want no downscaling because they want to show “power” to mobs too, they want FFA in PvE zones so they can sit in Queensdale to kill lvl 5s, etc.
Luckily this kind of people tends to last very little in GW2, they realize skill>gear and there is no reward or feeling of omnipotence without good player skills, so they move to games where time equals power.

That’s how I see it.

Exactly how I think. The reason I like GW2 is because of the aspect that gear grinder, high leveler cannot just owned you because they are higher level and have better gear. I used to play a grindfest game where gear & level > skill with open world pvp. That’s why when I learnt about GW2 I’m was so glad and anticipated it. Moreover newcomer can easily catch up without feeling they come too late to the game.

No they are not. It’s the trash casuals that are ANY games worse enemy. Simply because they moan and cry with the same 10+ yr old excuses of why they can’t play for more than 10 minutes and expect every piece of gear on day 1 like certain companies do to their game. “hardcore” players are people that actually like a challenge or putting effort in to their game for than 2 minutes and then get top tier gear in day 1-3. If WoW isn’t the best proof of how a game can once be a fantastic game and then turn in to a pure piece of trash cause of casuals alone then nothing will prove that to you.

KOLZ.4501:

No they are not. It’s the trash casuals that are ANY games worse enemy. Simply because they moan and cry with the same 10+ yr old excuses of why they can’t play for more than 10 minutes and expect every piece of gear on day 1 like certain companies do to their game. “hardcore” players are people that actually like a challenge or putting effort in to their game for than 2 minutes and then get top tier gear in day 1-3. If WoW isn’t the best proof of how a game can once be a fantastic game and then turn in to a pure piece of trash cause of casuals alone then nothing will prove that to you.

If high end content is based on gear stats then it’s not a challenge, it’s a health pool and a timer.

kash.9213:

KOLZ.4501:

No they are not. It’s the trash casuals that are ANY games worse enemy. Simply because they moan and cry with the same 10+ yr old excuses of why they can’t play for more than 10 minutes and expect every piece of gear on day 1 like certain companies do to their game. “hardcore” players are people that actually like a challenge or putting effort in to their game for than 2 minutes and then get top tier gear in day 1-3. If WoW isn’t the best proof of how a game can once be a fantastic game and then turn in to a pure piece of trash cause of casuals alone then nothing will prove that to you.

If high end content is based on gear stats then it’s not a challenge, it’s a health pool and a timer.

lol and exactly how do you plan on fighting end game bosses with low gear ?

KOLZ.4501:

lol and exactly how do you plan on fighting end game bosses with low gear ?

Take any game with challenging raid encounters, after a few months most guilds will be for the most part equally geared, but difficult encounters will still only be locked down by a few top guilds. I’m talking about the challenge of an encounter, not time sinks for best in slot gear, which is what this game was supposed to avoid. If an encounter is only challenging during the gear grind due to a disparity in damage and health points then that’s not a challenge at all.

marnick.4305:

Excuse me the obvious hyperbole. But still, the best in videogames are the ones who spend the most time ingame. The question is simply how they influence people who spend less time. Whether you spend 4 hours a day or 12 doesn’t change the fact that it is an extreme amount of time to spend behind a screen.

Playing an average of 4:40 hours per day is beyond hardcore. Having an average of 4:40 hours per day behind your screen is not compatible with having a life. Normal people would be happy to log in for 2 hours, 3 times a week. Even that could be a stretch at times, so people like me fill that gap with gems.

Let’s be very clear here. To me, anyone who manages to spend more than 2 hours a day on a videogame consistently, is making a hardcore time commitment. Even more so if you’re spending the weekends behind your monitor instead of with loved ones. I don’t really mind, as long as you don’t mind me matching your time with gems. I will get my Quip eventually. I won’t farm all the gold for it.

I’m not sure you’ve read and even less understood what I was saying. I never denied playing hardcore required a quite large amount of time most can’t afford, and I can’t afford it nowadays either. I was just correcting your mad exaggeration of 12 hours a day, nothing more. Even the most hardcore don’t need to play more than a few hours to be the best, only the bad players need more than that. A hardcore raid group will clear a dungeon in one evening of 4 hours, when a group of bad players will need 3 evenings to do the same. Who has the most free time? Basic maths.
People who play 8+ hours a day are not the best players. It’s those who require more time to complete the same content than the best.