Guild Wars 2

I’m not particularly interested in a dmg meter either personal or allround… I do not fear weakness of my builds, only my personal skills… Being an old geezer I think I have seen a lot of games… I’m slower then 30 years ago when I started gaming…. Though I’m not useless….

Most of the problems arise from the fact dmg is not only your doing.
Damage is a collective effort…

If you’re running a condi build and you make a combo on someone else’s field and it added dmg, and vice versa if you lay down combo fields and people trigger it, will it add to your damage or not? Should vulnerability, might and fury and banners be included in your dmg assesment or just the raw dmg?

There is a good chance vulnerability is not the spearhead of your build, or might or fury, and you’re dependant of 1 or more other players to provide those, if so the number of your DPS/DOT only show the effectiveness of group play not the effeciveness of the builds. Also based on these numbers could you make a decent assesment of you need to split up and you’ll lose a good deal of your DPS/DOT if your party is well, not balanced? will you die when split up cause you no longer have acces to certain boons (protection, regen?)

Be sure to know most figures are only valid if you could outright copy all instances exact in movement and cast times not only for yourself but also for others… This was also the main reason for stacking… boon sharing and maximizing effectiveness at all times…. with 10 ppl 1 stack dooesn’t work, most boons are for 5 ppl. so groups should be max 5 ppl.

Shouldn’t your observations be more then DPS alone?

Well the boss is a HP bag and you have “t” seconds to kill it.

So HP/t = required minimal AVERAGE total DPS & DOT

Average total DPS & DOT / players = USELESS

But it should give a nice figure…. or does it?

The function of builds could imply they have a less ideal setup for DPS due to the need of certain weapons/skills, causing the need for High DPS and dedicated (potentially) lower DPS builds co-oping…. of course the HIGH DPS will need to trade safety for DPS and the lower will not function to replace them, in the end requiring all of them to fuction as a team…

Problem is these theoretical values are useless when you need to dodge/ heal/res/use other skills with no DPS cause it will reduce “t” and therefore raise AVERAGE DPS. Down time of players will aggrevate this a LOT….

The numbers are an illusion cause you are not capable of extrapolating data while playing. Yes your DPS can go up and down, but why? cause of might? fury? vulnerability? banners? buff fields?, is the goal you set for DPS still relevant if 1 goes down or 2 go down?

Understand if you have 6 DPS builds doing 66% of the dmg and 4 doing the remaining 34% and 2 DPS-ers go down: all players need to up DPS by 22%… and while ressing if one of the low DPS ppl goes you’ll need 30.5% and if one of the remaining 4 DPS -er goes you’ll need 33% added dmg to maintain the same average DPS you started with to maintain DPS…. for the 1st res and 19.5 and 22% respectively during the second res…or if both go to res you’ll have 41.5% engaged in rubbing people but only half time As these values are mostly impossible to compensate I’d be very mindfull of actual deaths….

Understand a DPS meter is -mostly- a limited tool ( especially when only DPS/s), and I find the most usefull tool should be your own intelligence and I’d say just use your head instead. Your tool can say you are doing our calculated minimum number, but it really doesn’t matter if you lose oversight

I expect a lot more people will die when a DPS meter is added mostly because they aren’t watching the game, making it only usefull when rewatching your fight, in which case a realtime DPS meter would save you trouble in your recording but it would be ueless in the fight.

Making a recording will show you way more then just a statistic… Maybe I feel it’s a bit like driving a car while only looking at the speed-o-meter….. I see this happening and it would be a big reason for fails….

Maybe you should try to work out:

• Did you keep up might, fury, vulnerability, buffs, enough stacks of DOT,
• Could you (get & stay) melee when it was possible/needed,
• Did you help people by buffing,
• Did you help people by healing them,
• Did you help people by cleansing them,
• Did you break the boss when needed,
• Could you fullfill your role? Or were you forced in a role you do not have a build for?
• Did you go down, and why?
• How much time did you explore the wonderous world of ants and daisies,

In the end regarding DPS:
If any time would be left afer completing: it would open up the party to other builds with lower DPS as long as the lower DPS players can provide other benefits, using a less effective weapon for CC or Heals for example, or when a certain boss drops way faster then other bosses, maybe you could use 1 less player on a certain boss so it’s more balanced.

DPS is probably the last and least interesting factor… Most engagements are done with minutes to spare on timers, if this happens: clearly the overal damage was more then enough.

If all were max dps and full glass and you would have 1 or 2 seconds to spare (or short) ,it would imply the engagement with your foe wouldn’t be completable with other builds then max DPS, as you already maximized uptime, buffs, DOT, and so on. It would also mean you cannot finish it on 99% of the available builds… showing it’s time for a nerf hammer. making the DPS meter once again useless.

Lastly:

A personal dmg meter is a brag system: Look at me! I did -fill in numer here- dmg and -fill in other number here- DPS! Leaving the -personal- soon to be forgotten… But it would bypass all other things, ressing somebody would cause a loss of DPS, especially long term (average) DPS would suffer but you did add a player back and it’s corresponding DPS/DOT/CC/Heals/Buffs and so on. The problem being the brag thing… either on screenshots, video’s, Vlogs and so on….

Bragging makes people come out in the open with numbers, removing personal from personal dmg meter, again only showing “polished numbers” again creating hype’s about meta’s and builds and team setups then again needed for fastest completion… Which is exactly what the OP wants to avoid….

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

What?

So the member can’t lie about their numbers? Now, that’s not really an effective way to check, so why would one even check.

Having a dps meter that produces logs that could be uploaded/posted somewhere counter-acts the personal aspect of a personal dps meter. It is also a feature that you’ve made up on the spot, it may not be implemented.

Sure, screen shotting can occur, but it will be more of a hassle of getting that screen shot across to the guy requesting it, and if that guy had set up various means for you to get that screen shot across, that guy would have probably kicked you later down the road for smelling funny (judging by his initial attitude). And of course this would all have to happen relatively fast upon joining a group – else you would join a group and wait 30-40 minutes for everyone to post their screen shots somewhere – Yeah like people will accept that kitten (well, maybe like a very tiny populace will, but, they would be too few). Come up with a simple way of getting a screen shot across for this purpose.

look I will be ok with a DPS meter as long as it will not be used to boot people, harrass people, intimidate people, and get people kicked out of a raid before they even had a shot at raiding! However, I am afraid that will not happen, because the very nature of a dps meter is elitist and it will cause a lot of grief among-est plaeyrs!

I just think it’s funny you assume people won’t be kicked/booted from raids. Ofc they will but it will ba based on guessing rather than real numbers. I also don’t think people should be expected to carry those who can’t use proper builds and know their class. It’s supposed to be endgame content, not content everyone will finish while half afk.

Laraley.7695:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!

HOW can a personal dps meter bring more harm.

Personal dps meter meaning, you will only see your own dps, you will not see anyone else.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!

What?

So the member can’t lie about their numbers? Now, that’s not really an effective way to check, so why would one even check.

Having a dps meter that produces logs that could be uploaded/posted somewhere counter-acts the personal aspect of a personal dps meter. It is also a feature that you’ve made up on the spot, it may not be implemented.

Sure, screen shotting can occur, but it will be more of a hassle of getting that screen shot across to the guy requesting it, and if that guy had set up various means for you to get that screen shot across, that guy would have probably kicked you later down the road for smelling funny (judging by his initial attitude). And of course this would all have to happen relatively fast upon joining a group – else you would join a group and wait 30-40 minutes for everyone to post their screen shots somewhere – Yeah like people will accept that kitten (well, maybe like a very tiny populace will, but, they would be too few). Come up with a simple way of getting a screen shot across for this purpose.

look I will be ok with a DPS meter as long as it will not be used to boot people, harrass people, intimidate people, and get people kicked out of a raid before they even had a shot at raiding! However, I am afraid that will not happen, because the very nature of a dps meter is elitist and it will cause a lot of grief among-est plaeyrs!

I just think it’s funny you assume people won’t be kicked/booted from raids. Ofc they will but it will ba based on guessing rather than real numbers. I also don’t think people should be expected to carry those who can’t use proper builds and know their class. It’s supposed to be endgame content, not content everyone will finish while half afk.

problem is numbers are not very relevant…
reasons for kicks will be being dead and not ressing… when you die you lose huge amounts of dps, about twice the amount compared to what you could deliver: your own dps AND you resser(s) DPS. BUT if someone didn’t res, it’s a reason to kick as well…

Make sure you can do dps/dot, and survive….

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