Guild Wars 2

With the recent adjustment to boss real HP values, as well as the addition of new game changing mechanics which go on top of the old ones… combined with “Alacrity” and “Quickness” which amplify everything exponentially to a point where using the wrong build/build comps… for the encounter… is five times more costly then before.

Example:
Before HoT – same team comp / damage rotations

5x Icebows vs Bloomhunger scale 50 (2133327 HP) = 17.3 sec SPEEDKILL (with timewarp) -> party DPS = 123313 -> average player’s DPS = ~ 24662

0x Icebows vs Bloomhunger scale 50 (2133326 HP) = 35 sec SPEEDKILL (with timewarp) -> party DPS = 60952 -> average player’s DPS = ~ 12190

6x Icebows vs Legendary Flame Shaman scale 50 (1493329 HP) = 113.7 sec SPEEDKILL (with timewarp) -> party DPS = 13133 -> average player’s DPS = ~ 2438

Previously Icebow was skyrocketing the effectiveness of bursting builds/comps used in the encounters which facilitate such comps while doing nothing in encounters where the mechanics dictate that you require sustain/condition type damage.

Icebow has been nerfed out of play but in it’s place Alacrity has appeared which does the same for power builds, but also amplifies the effectiveness of condition builds across the board.

Simply put bursting comps in scenarios which require bursting now have extreme effectiveness / sustained condition type comps in scenarios which require sustain condition type DPS now have extreme effectiveness.

Using a bursting comp in scenario which requires sustained condition type comps is far more devastating then before.
Using a sustained condition type comp in a scenario which requires a bursting comp is far more devastating then before.

Some members of the community have tried providing guidance using “math-in-a-void” which 100% neglects all in game mechanics and have came up with extremely misleading conclusions because of it even before Alacrity…

Doing manual REAL DPS tests is not an option because of the insane amount of work involved, doing math-in-a-void is probably just as demanding if not more demanding if you wish to have accurate conclusions… and will end up giving 100 different spreadsheets with 20 exceptions and other situational conditions.

Even without Alacrity the damage values were all over the place, greatly variating from encounter to encounter because of it’s mechanics…
NOW ?… It’s going to be total chaos.

The game is far too complex to be lacking the primary tool required to find out what works and what doesn’t in every situation.

“Play however you want” is not even close to being true anymore…

We… need… a damage/support meter.

I would only approve a damage meter in Guild Wars 2 if it only register your own damage for testing purposes without sending that information to others. From my own experinces so does damage meters only separate new player, casual players and hard core players from eachother by demanding a specific DPS in groups/raids.
After a while people will expect high DPS or kick, which is only bad and harm character progression.

Damage meters just make everyone unhappy. The elitists whining about newbies and casuals, newbies and casuals whining about being kicked, players in general whining about their favorite class being low on dps, devs whining about actually having to balance things…

Why would you need a damage meter? It’s useless in most cases anyways.

For DPS you cannot predict dmg due to uncertainty of ability to land hits in melee, and about the same for condition builds, you need to apply they stacks before they start ticking. though this uncertainty is less in 2 and 3 ppl groups groups of 5+ will suffer this probelm more, raids could prove a nice ground for the test of this with 10 characters spamming skills, fields, and finishers

Combo’s need to work, you need to be in the cronomancers fields and wells to have acces to alacrity/timewarp, Same for boons/banners and so on.

Fighting a target dummy isn’t representative for dmg at all…
You do not have any use for a damage meter, as you can NEVER EVER compare fights.

Yes you could say: This one went 5, 10 or 15 seconds faster but… is it due to:

• boon uptime,
• builds,
• acces to target,
• vulnerability of the boss due to his break bar being down.
• food used/not used
• trait mechanics being met or not
• more dodges
• weakness/retaliation and so on up or not?

So in the end you can state a PERFECT rotation based upon a PERFECT group composition, but I’m really really wondering if these builds would hold up in less then ideal circumstances, with only a limited % of alacrity being met, with people needing to res others losing out on fields/combo’s support spells and buffs. and the expected DPS which is reatined in the end with all things going normal as opposed to PERFECT.

Play however you want really is adequate. as people forced into builds generally function less compared to thier personal builds (as long as they meet minimal requirements) due to rotations being off or corrupted, and most therorycrafted rotations will not stay up in combat…. and if poeple strive to maintain them they often lose boons and fields due to chaos… (fire and symbols on the same place, timewarp coming up giving people chaos armor instead of might you were abot to proc. and so on.)

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Why would you need a damage meter? It’s useless in most cases anyways.

If you had ever used a parser in another MMO or even this one you would know this is completely false. For raiding content at least.

Well I haven’t. I play games to have fun, not to constantly pressure myself, I have kids and a RL for those things….

At any moment when content is only playable with full communications, only with 3 or 4 builds in this game , the content is destroying itself, and taking part of the long term viability of the game with it.

Content is only worthwhile if people can play it. If 1000 players with all numbers can finish it and 3.5 million others cannot you should be aware the content is

a) going to get nerfed
b) going to be ignored, also discontinuing development

And in this case the content is one of the major selling points of an expansion…. I doubt it will stay unnerfed for long (so I’m just waiting for point a), maybe it will stay “HARD” until the next lane/part is unlocked for double gains, but it will be nerfed eventually mostly to make sure content is avaialble for others, and if this happens, it will mean people will flood the content and possibly still not make it (in which case b will happen) and stuff will be forgotten.

I think there should be an awareness too much focus on the edge will hurt the game due to content being unplayable…. In the end if the playerbase cannot play content cause the difficulty levels are so high, playerbase will shift to other parts of the game or other games. The 1st isn’t a big problem, but the second will mean the financial base of a game is reduced. Often things being unreachable and the feeling it’s mandatory to proceed content will mean people are gone fast… we had a group of people leave due to the introduction of ascneded gear for example. I do understand legendary gear doesn’t raise the cap for armors and so on, but emotionally it does.
And people will react to this.

Already A-Net has stated, mandatory gear requirements, high skill level, long fights, limited options for gear, limited acces, mandatory for improvement of gear…

If players make the skill level so high people cannot participate, tyhe community will deteriorate, due to elitism and fingerpointing, people will rebel and there with destroy your -preferred- hard content. Leaving you with nothing, so try to find ways so ALL (well relevant) builds and ALL proffesions would be able to join, instead of only MAXing DPS, it would be better for the game, the community and the playerbase.

IMHO All classes would need options for a DPS, a CC , a DOT and a support option for as far as it could work within the contents required Damapge/time parameters (you know “being able to finish it”)

With this regard a DPS tool could be viable, but it will -never- be used in this fashion you know why and I know why…

In a game that wants to focus on inclusive play, and not excluding others based on their “preformance” a DPS meter that could be used to compare one person to another wouldn’t be welcome.

A meter for your personal DPS that was unviewable by any other might be ok, but anything more would obviously be used for the same purposes they are used in other MMOs.

If Anet would ever implement some DPS-meter, then it should be something that only you yourself can see (and from there you can decide if you want to share it (screenshots etc.) or not). It should be possible that you can start “recording” your damage-output at one point and then stop at any time you want, after which the game would calculate how much damage you inflicted each second; possibly also with some graphic that shows you how much dps on which mob and how much total dps during the time you were recording your damage-output. In a more advanced version, you could maybe even add a possiblity to track which boons/conditions you applied to which target and so on. But ya… no clue how much that kind of stuff could impact performance; although some of that stuff partially already exists in the form of the combat log we have today.

Miku.6297:

In a game that wants to focus on inclusive play, and not excluding others based on their “preformance” a DPS meter that could be used to compare one person to another wouldn’t be welcome.

A meter for your personal DPS that was unviewable by any other might be ok, but anything more would obviously be used for the same purposes they are used in other MMOs.

I agree… especially since most people would not know how to interpret the values they are seeing.
I would never ask for a damage meter, since i am one of the only people mad enough to test the real DPS values in a few dozen fights… i saw with my own eyes how the damage in this game is all over the place.

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.

… and of course people taking melee power builds vs bosses with perma protection and full power invulnerabilities every now and then, while completely kicking “class X” from parties.

It’s a very sticky situation… but i still think elitism is better then delusional elitism which we had for over 2 years now.

I tried to get the real values myself… 5 days… and i only scratched the surface of it all, i can’t do it… no mortal man can do that amount of work.

I only want the damage meter so people see for themselves some encounters require bursting builds but in other places in the game the builds that got them 16K DPS only put out 4K… and it’s much better to just go hybrid or condi…

The game’s complexity just grew exponentially because of the new mechanics and alacrity, but without a damage meter it will go over people’s heads… and they’ll just use a single build/comp everywhere, just like in the last 2 years…

Nemesis.8593:

It’s a very sticky situation… but i still think elitism is better then delusional elitism which we had for over 2 years now.

Except for with the current, it’s not as common or as easy. Implementing a tool that would mainly be used for elitism would not be welcome in my opinion.

Like I said a personaly viewable meter of only your damage might be ok, but anything that would be mainly used to exclude others I’m firmly against.

There is actualy a -combatlog Command line argument it was just never enabled

Miku.6297:

In a game that wants to focus on inclusive play, and not excluding others based on their “preformance” a DPS meter that could be used to compare one person to another wouldn’t be welcome.

A meter for your personal DPS that was unviewable by any other might be ok, but anything more would obviously be used for the same purposes they are used in other MMOs.

Vanialla was inclusive .. HoT is exclusive .. its all just for those that wanted
“challenging content” end especially “exclusive rewards”.

So why not give them raiders their DPS meters .. maybe also aggro-meters, and
since they got healer we should also get real tanks.

No damage meter, we don’t need elitist in this game and if you don’t like it quite and nobody will miss you!

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

Let me give you an example, in world of Warcraft there are raids, and in every raid there are will be failiure the first try! After each failure people start whining and blame each other, and in the end the raid lead is forced by everyone to boot the lowest dps, lowest heal. In all honesty 1 wipe is ok and just to boot people for 1 failure is just stupid I don’t want this game to turn into wow thank you!

Guild War 2 have the best community and the friendliest players I don’t want that to change. In all honesty I don’t mind carrying a bad player no matter how difficult the content is thank you!

Ok I will be honest, completely honest and give you more example why a damage meter is very bad for guild war 2 and the community.

When I was a hardcore wow player I decided that I wanted to get the best gear and join the best guild, but to be honest I did not have the skill because even though I am good but I am not that good. Now here is what happened. First in order to join any good guild you have to get the first couple of tier one set items and armor so you can even be qualified. What I did was very mean, I basically became a raid leader and every time a nice piece of gear dropped I would take it and not give anyone else a chance, I must have done that for over 7 years and as a matter of fact the guild I joined does that, basically screwing people over. But remember I said earlier I am not that good? So I spend some money and this hacker friend of my created a program for me to give false DPS, basically I was the worst in my guild but my guildies didnt know it becuase I was using a hack program to fool everyone!

I dont want that to happen to guild war 2!
I love this game too much, and care about this community with all my heart!

and here is one more very good argument by PaxTheGreatOne.9472
Nemesis personally said most DPS assesments ingame (and around it, in VLOGS and build sites like Metabattle) are false, with people using spike/burst values instead of sustained DPS. A DPS meter is useless as sustained DPS is DPS/time, not only the spikes and not only the base DPS, and even if implemented I fear the majority of players would be unaware of its actual use and ways of interpretation.
Having an actual DPS meter really wouldn’t be nice, It would result in a fixed meta, cause people would all be scared to be kicked, (both the casuals and the elitists) and why?
Because there would be a need for outperforming others….
A DPS meter doesn’t measure:
fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
numer and time spend on resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number , would ressing lower dps or stop measuring? also ging false values?
combo’s and comparables
outgoing conditions, and cleans
CC’s and or interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed and or adding to DPS?
DOT or effective DOT
Average DPS/Time
Time spend facerubbing the floor
*
and thus:
A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded.
Leaving DPS something like MAX speed of a car on a mountainroad to the top of the mountain full of hairpins with oncoming traffic…. You could reach your max speed, but you’ll likely fly of the road, or kill someone else cause you are focussing something else, and in those (and likely other) cases not achieving your goal of reacing the top….
Lastly it will influence people to try and get cheats/hacks/manipulators ingame to manipulate the meters…. whichs will be 3rd party add-ons and will read memory (breaking TOS and geetting themselves kicked/banned/removed from play) mostly added this as I saw someone admitting he was manipulating DPS meters in WoW….
I personally feel people would go as far aas manipulating the game would be very bad, due to the party no longer knowing what and where problems come from, and if actual dmg was manipulated (other then the meter) I’d suggest all 10 being stipped of gains and the offender insteantly losig his account for manipulating gameplay and getting unfair advantages. I also thing a DPS meter would be an incentive for manipulation of the game… Maybe not for me, but for some it would be….

Nemesis.8593:

It’s a very sticky situation… but i still think elitism is better then delusional elitism which we had for over 2 years now.

but without a damage meter it will go over people’s heads… and they’ll just use a single build/comp everywhere, just like in the last 2 years…

Having a meter would not solve the problem of people expecting others to follow the ‘meta’ posted on randomGuy’s blog…

It would just change what meta got posted on that blog.

I’ve been playing against the meta in this game since the prelaunch event. I run a variety of somewhat tanky builds with a lot of toughness but also as much damage as I can put in there. I try to balance offense and defense. I’ve been able to run content alongside others this whole time with any issues only being my given skill on that day.

If I am doing less damage nobody has noticed or said anything – where the other’s spend a lot of time dodging I can power through many hits. This balances out…

Maybe not perfectly, but enough. And of course without any meter neither I nor they can prove who has the most final DPS when you factor both the raw number and one’s uptime on delivering that number.

A LOT more goes into the final result than the build. What a meter will reveal is what build best matches a given player’s style… and that is not a universal constant.

But what will occur is that whatever playstyle works best for the most popular blogger, will get declared the ideal one for everyone… it likely will NOT be the current meta… but it will be a meta nonetheless.

Yep totally needed a new thread for this…..

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

Let me give you an example, in world of Warcraft there are raids, and in every raid there are will be failiure the first try! After each failure people start whining and blame each other, and in the end the raid lead is forced by everyone to boot the lowest dps, lowest heal. In all honesty 1 wipe is ok and just to boot people for 1 failure is just stupid I don’t want this game to turn into wow thank you!

Guild War 2 have the best community and the friendliest players I don’t want that to change. In all honesty I don’t mind carrying a bad player no matter how difficult the content is thank you!

Would you be against a personal damage meter that only you can see?

Citronvand.2837:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

Let me give you an example, in world of Warcraft there are raids, and in every raid there are will be failiure the first try! After each failure people start whining and blame each other, and in the end the raid lead is forced by everyone to boot the lowest dps, lowest heal. In all honesty 1 wipe is ok and just to boot people for 1 failure is just stupid I don’t want this game to turn into wow thank you!

Guild War 2 have the best community and the friendliest players I don’t want that to change. In all honesty I don’t mind carrying a bad player no matter how difficult the content is thank you!

Would you be against a personal damage meter that only you can see?

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

If you want an actual answer here it is.

This is a grey area. Every argument has a valid counter argument. You can’t come up with an arguement for or against that is “right”. People are trying here but it doesn’t work. Some people feel rather strongly about their arguement and then it starts going down hill as this type of thread goes on.

So either way isn’t right or wrong and anything that comes or does not come out of this is just something everyone will have to deal with. My personal take on this is to implement one at least on the individual level. Yes some groups might demand screen shots or something of your damage in a raid but that isn’t too much different than making you link gear which already happens a lot. That and if you don’t want to party up with elitists then don’t party up with them. Whether is screenshots or gear link its inevitable. And yeah I understand that elitism can be insidious and something like this could promote it. But personally I don’t have a problem with tho I know others would.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Citronvand.2837:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

Let me give you an example, in world of Warcraft there are raids, and in every raid there are will be failiure the first try! After each failure people start whining and blame each other, and in the end the raid lead is forced by everyone to boot the lowest dps, lowest heal. In all honesty 1 wipe is ok and just to boot people for 1 failure is just stupid I don’t want this game to turn into wow thank you!

Guild War 2 have the best community and the friendliest players I don’t want that to change. In all honesty I don’t mind carrying a bad player no matter how difficult the content is thank you!

Would you be against a personal damage meter that only you can see?

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

Yes but why did we need another thread for this.

Andraus.3874:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Citronvand.2837:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

Let me give you an example, in world of Warcraft there are raids, and in every raid there are will be failiure the first try! After each failure people start whining and blame each other, and in the end the raid lead is forced by everyone to boot the lowest dps, lowest heal. In all honesty 1 wipe is ok and just to boot people for 1 failure is just stupid I don’t want this game to turn into wow thank you!

Guild War 2 have the best community and the friendliest players I don’t want that to change. In all honesty I don’t mind carrying a bad player no matter how difficult the content is thank you!

Would you be against a personal damage meter that only you can see?

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

Yes but why did we need another thread for this.

read my post all of it then u will understand!

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

Sure. But would you join such a guild? I wouldn’t. It’s like those guilds that requires 100% representation, just kitten off. But with a personal DPS meter we could gain a lot of info, showing for instance that zerk meta is in fact not be-all end-all. That class X vs class Y is in fact not as bad even though the theoretical DPS shows it is.

Citronvand.2837:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

Sure. But would you join such a guild? I wouldn’t. It’s like those guilds that requires 100% representation, just kitten off. But with a personal DPS meter we could gain a lot of info, showing for instance that zerk meta is in fact not be-all end-all. That class X vs class Y is in fact not as bad even though the theoretical DPS shows it is.

read my post first completely! but u do have a good point!

It’s really going to depend on how difficult the raid is whether one will be needed or not. If it’s like WoW where some bosses require tens or even hundreds of pulls before a successful kill then it’s going to be an invaluable tool for optimizing the fight. If raids are a lot easier and only require a few pulls to down a boss for a group that is trying it really won’t matter.

Citronvand.2837:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

Sure. But would you join such a guild? I wouldn’t. It’s like those guilds that requires 100% representation, just kitten off. But with a personal DPS meter we could gain a lot of info, showing for instance that zerk meta is in fact not be-all end-all. That class X vs class Y is in fact not as bad even though the theoretical DPS shows it is.

No personally i hate elitist players! thats why I am so against Damage meter! when you talk about info that I agree! it would be nice to know how much damage u are doing but u also have to weigh the cost which is a community thats less friendly and players less willing to participate with players who are not that skilled!

How will a damage meter affect casuals? The people who want one already don’t play with bad players unless they feel like carrying someone, in which case chances are they won’t start kittening and moaning about DPS meters anyway. Casuals can and will continue to form their own safe spaces.

But criticism is undeniably the most important type of feedback there is, most people know when their performance was adequate and do not need to be told it was unless it was absolutely exceptional but are quick to shift the blame when it isn’t. Being able to tell someone to step their game up in raids if you see that they are far below for example the 7k DPS threshold required for the first wing’s boss is nothing but positive.

Just a DPS meter would be paltry though. They have the tools for it as evidenced by the PvP scoreboard so give us split damage and condi damage meters, boons applied, outgoing and self applied healing, boons removed etc.

Aktium.9506:

How will a damage meter affect casuals? The people who want one already don’t play with bad players unless they feel like carrying someone, in which case chances are they won’t start kittening and moaning about DPS meters anyway. Casuals can and will continue to form their own safe spaces.

But criticism is undeniably the most important type of feedback there is, most people know when their performance was adequate and do not need to be told it was unless it was absolutely exceptional but are quick to shift the blame when it isn’t. Being able to tell someone to step their game up in raids if you see that they are far below for example the 7k DPS threshold required for the first wing’s boss is nothing but positive.

Just a DPS meter would be paltry though. They have the tools for it as evidenced by the PvP scoreboard so give us split damage and condi damage meters, boons applied, outgoing and self applied healing, boons removed etc.

The other argument would be, 10 people form a raid group,the 10 person raid is very happy and they start trying to kill the first raid boss, After 1 attempt they fail miserably, people start blaming each other, then they look at the DPS meter, every is doing above 7k dps, so it cant be the dps right? Nah if you are a pro then u can do 8k dps, hence anyone who is below 8k dps gets the boot! You see my point? if not I will continue. After booting the two person who are below 8k dps, the newly formed 10 person group tries again, but once again they fail miserably, so the raid leader looks at the DPS meter, ok everyone is doing above 8k dps, so it cant be the dps right? NAH if you are a pro then you should be able to do above 9k dps, and the 2 person who did below 9k dps are booted, but wait, “pls dont boot me says the 2 person we misclicked and this is our first try pls give us a chance!” The raid leader then says I dont have time for this NOOB BS! and boot! and if you are wondering where I got this example from just go play WOW and you will understand!

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

You’re a little late to the party .. i wished some more people were vocal against
all this raid with exlusive gear bullkitten .. now they have already made it like
WoW and all other MMOs where only raids give the best gear. And yes i know
that legendary stats are not higher than ascended .. still legendary is in some
way the “best”.

So for me … yes please to damage meters, and give them also their trinity and
aggro meters, and maybe addons .. who cares anymore, this is no longer the
casual Vanilla.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Aktium.9506:

How will a damage meter affect casuals? The people who want one already don’t play with bad players unless they feel like carrying someone, in which case chances are they won’t start kittening and moaning about DPS meters anyway. Casuals can and will continue to form their own safe spaces.

But criticism is undeniably the most important type of feedback there is, most people know when their performance was adequate and do not need to be told it was unless it was absolutely exceptional but are quick to shift the blame when it isn’t. Being able to tell someone to step their game up in raids if you see that they are far below for example the 7k DPS threshold required for the first wing’s boss is nothing but positive.

Just a DPS meter would be paltry though. They have the tools for it as evidenced by the PvP scoreboard so give us split damage and condi damage meters, boons applied, outgoing and self applied healing, boons removed etc.

The other argument would be, 10 people form a raid group,the 10 person raid is very happy and they start trying to kill the first raid boss, After 1 attempt they fail miserably, people start blaming each other, then they look at the DPS meter, every is doing above 7k dps, so it cant be the dps right? Nah if you are a pro then u can do 8k dps, hence anyone who is below 8k dps gets the boot! You see my point? if not I will continue. After booting the two person who are below 8k dps, the newly formed 10 person group tries again, but once again they fail miserably, so the raid leader looks at the DPS meter, ok everyone is doing above 8k dps, so it cant be the dps right? NAH if you are a pro then you should be able to do above 9k dps, and the 2 person who did below 9k dps are booted, but wait, “pls dont boot me says the 2 person we misclicked and this is our first try pls give us a chance!” The raid leader then says I dont have time for this NOOB BS! and boot! and if you are wondering where I got this example from just go play WOW and you will understand!

Well I’ll give a real example from WoW. A boss with an enrage timer and certain amount of HP that can be calculated to mean everyone should be doing 20k DPS to kill it. You go into the fight and most of the DPS are 19-20k. You have a few people carrying up at 20-23k and then this one amazing guy at 27k. You still can’t kill the boss though. After a few attempts you notice that a few players are consistently doing 14-16k and other players of the same class with very little difference in gear are doing 20k+. There’s a reason they get kicked. It isn’t “elitism” they are simply playing badly. People don’t want to waste hours trying to kill a boss and fail because bad players can’t pull their weight.

Also DPS meters can help prevent elitism. EX: I played a rogue at the beginning of WoD and they weren’t great. When I applied for a high ranked progression raiding guild however they could see from my logs that my DPS was much higher than other applicants because I was executing in the 96th-98th percentile on most fights. Without damage meters they would just say lol no sorry not taking rogues because other classes have higher DPS ceilings.

Mallis.4295:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Aktium.9506:

How will a damage meter affect casuals? The people who want one already don’t play with bad players unless they feel like carrying someone, in which case chances are they won’t start kittening and moaning about DPS meters anyway. Casuals can and will continue to form their own safe spaces.

But criticism is undeniably the most important type of feedback there is, most people know when their performance was adequate and do not need to be told it was unless it was absolutely exceptional but are quick to shift the blame when it isn’t. Being able to tell someone to step their game up in raids if you see that they are far below for example the 7k DPS threshold required for the first wing’s boss is nothing but positive.

Just a DPS meter would be paltry though. They have the tools for it as evidenced by the PvP scoreboard so give us split damage and condi damage meters, boons applied, outgoing and self applied healing, boons removed etc.

The other argument would be, 10 people form a raid group,the 10 person raid is very happy and they start trying to kill the first raid boss, After 1 attempt they fail miserably, people start blaming each other, then they look at the DPS meter, every is doing above 7k dps, so it cant be the dps right? Nah if you are a pro then u can do 8k dps, hence anyone who is below 8k dps gets the boot! You see my point? if not I will continue. After booting the two person who are below 8k dps, the newly formed 10 person group tries again, but once again they fail miserably, so the raid leader looks at the DPS meter, ok everyone is doing above 8k dps, so it cant be the dps right? NAH if you are a pro then you should be able to do above 9k dps, and the 2 person who did below 9k dps are booted, but wait, “pls dont boot me says the 2 person we misclicked and this is our first try pls give us a chance!” The raid leader then says I dont have time for this NOOB BS! and boot! and if you are wondering where I got this example from just go play WOW and you will understand!

Well I’ll give a real example from WoW. A boss with an enrage timer and certain amount of HP that can be calculated to mean everyone should be doing 20k DPS to kill it. You go into the fight and most of the DPS are 19-20k. You have a few people carrying up at 20-23k and then this one amazing guy at 27k. You still can’t kill the boss though. After a few attempts you notice that a few players are consistently doing 14-16k and other players of the same class with very little difference in gear are doing 20k+. There’s a reason they get kicked. It isn’t “elitism” they are simply playing badly. People don’t want to waste hours trying to kill a boss and fail because bad players can’t pull their weight.

as a wow veteran I will tell you thats simply not true! after 1 try getting kicked for making 1 stupid mistake is just mean! As a wow raid leader I have done it many times, kicked people, yell at people, so on and so on! Wow is a very elitist and mean game now! In the beginning wow was much more friendlier I remember when I first joined wow, this guy give me 50 gold (equivalent to 200 guild war 2 gold!) just to help me out! I paid him back off course!

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Mallis.4295:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Aktium.9506:

How will a damage meter affect casuals? The people who want one already don’t play with bad players unless they feel like carrying someone, in which case chances are they won’t start kittening and moaning about DPS meters anyway. Casuals can and will continue to form their own safe spaces.

But criticism is undeniably the most important type of feedback there is, most people know when their performance was adequate and do not need to be told it was unless it was absolutely exceptional but are quick to shift the blame when it isn’t. Being able to tell someone to step their game up in raids if you see that they are far below for example the 7k DPS threshold required for the first wing’s boss is nothing but positive.

Just a DPS meter would be paltry though. They have the tools for it as evidenced by the PvP scoreboard so give us split damage and condi damage meters, boons applied, outgoing and self applied healing, boons removed etc.

The other argument would be, 10 people form a raid group,the 10 person raid is very happy and they start trying to kill the first raid boss, After 1 attempt they fail miserably, people start blaming each other, then they look at the DPS meter, every is doing above 7k dps, so it cant be the dps right? Nah if you are a pro then u can do 8k dps, hence anyone who is below 8k dps gets the boot! You see my point? if not I will continue. After booting the two person who are below 8k dps, the newly formed 10 person group tries again, but once again they fail miserably, so the raid leader looks at the DPS meter, ok everyone is doing above 8k dps, so it cant be the dps right? NAH if you are a pro then you should be able to do above 9k dps, and the 2 person who did below 9k dps are booted, but wait, “pls dont boot me says the 2 person we misclicked and this is our first try pls give us a chance!” The raid leader then says I dont have time for this NOOB BS! and boot! and if you are wondering where I got this example from just go play WOW and you will understand!

Well I’ll give a real example from WoW. A boss with an enrage timer and certain amount of HP that can be calculated to mean everyone should be doing 20k DPS to kill it. You go into the fight and most of the DPS are 19-20k. You have a few people carrying up at 20-23k and then this one amazing guy at 27k. You still can’t kill the boss though. After a few attempts you notice that a few players are consistently doing 14-16k and other players of the same class with very little difference in gear are doing 20k+. There’s a reason they get kicked. It isn’t “elitism” they are simply playing badly. People don’t want to waste hours trying to kill a boss and fail because bad players can’t pull their weight.

as a wow veteran I will tell you thats simply not true! after 1 try getting kicked for making 1 stupid mistake is just mean! As a wow raid leader I have done it many times, kicked people, yell at people, so on and so on! Wow is a very elitist and mean game now! In the beginning wow was much more friendlier I remember when I first joined wow, this guy give me 50 gold (equivalent to 200 guild war 2 gold!) just to help me out! I paid him back off course!

It’s purely anecdotal. But if you practice and execute fights correctly people will see that. Making one tiny mistake won’t wreck your DPS. Usually groups that kick on the first mistake will say so in their group description and it will be for raid wiping mistakes. Most pug groups for Mar’gok Heroic had “stand in mines = get kicked” in their description because the mines AOE the whole raid for a bunch of damage, usually wiping the raid or at least killing a few people, and you really shouldn’t stand in them.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

The other argument would be, 10 people form a raid group,the 10 person raid is very happy and they start trying to kill the first raid boss, After 1 attempt they fail miserably, people start blaming each other, then they look at the DPS meter, every is doing above 7k dps, so it cant be the dps right? Nah if you are a pro then u can do 8k dps, hence anyone who is below 8k dps gets the boot! You see my point? if not I will continue. After booting the two person who are below 8k dps, the newly formed 10 person group tries again, but once again they fail miserably, so the raid leader looks at the DPS meter, ok everyone is doing above 8k dps, so it cant be the dps right? NAH if you are a pro then you should be able to do above 9k dps, and the 2 person who did below 9k dps are booted, but wait, “pls dont boot me says the 2 person we misclicked and this is our first try pls give us a chance!” The raid leader then says I dont have time for this NOOB BS! and boot! and if you are wondering where I got this example from just go play WOW and you will understand!

All them hyperboles. Raids aren’t meant to be pugged, so your example shouldn’t be a problem to begin with. There’s nothing wrong with replacing players that perform sub-optimally either. If you are the one being replaced a it sorta means you need to get better.

It’s also worth mentioning that this isn’t WoW. The playerbase is significantly smaller and thus players here can’t be quite as picky. Players who aren’t utterly awful don’t grow on trees after all.

Nope, no damage meter of any kind. I’ve already seen what it does to a game (WoW) and if they add one here, I quit. Instantly. Without hesitation.

Man, you guys remember how great it was having a damage meter in EQ1, DAoC, and City of Heroes?

Man…good times…

even if they add a damage meter there will be hacks u can use to cheat it!

Aktium.9506:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

The other argument would be, 10 people form a raid group,the 10 person raid is very happy and they start trying to kill the first raid boss, After 1 attempt they fail miserably, people start blaming each other, then they look at the DPS meter, every is doing above 7k dps, so it cant be the dps right? Nah if you are a pro then u can do 8k dps, hence anyone who is below 8k dps gets the boot! You see my point? if not I will continue. After booting the two person who are below 8k dps, the newly formed 10 person group tries again, but once again they fail miserably, so the raid leader looks at the DPS meter, ok everyone is doing above 8k dps, so it cant be the dps right? NAH if you are a pro then you should be able to do above 9k dps, and the 2 person who did below 9k dps are booted, but wait, “pls dont boot me says the 2 person we misclicked and this is our first try pls give us a chance!” The raid leader then says I dont have time for this NOOB BS! and boot! and if you are wondering where I got this example from just go play WOW and you will understand!

All them hyperboles. Raids aren’t meant to be pugged, so your example shouldn’t be a problem to begin with. There’s nothing wrong with replacing players that perform sub-optimally either. If you are the one being replaced a it sorta means you need to get better.

It’s also worth mentioning that this isn’t WoW. The playerbase is significantly smaller and thus players here can’t be quite as picky. Players who aren’t utterly awful don’t grow on trees after all.

nope only the mythic or old heroic raid require dedicated guild! And I really dont want that system to come to guild war 2! If they do make raid that hard then I quite!

Im really against this, when I used to play Aion, everyone used a DPS Meter, and everyone was measured b y it, if something goes bad, ppl would trash talk the lowest DPS. Using it for personal use is ok, barely, but thats it.

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will be doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

Like, we always had a “meta”, without the dps meters. It’s not the meters that scare you people, it’s the meta.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think.

Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it). The “meta”, will still discriminate based on builds/classes, regardless, even if the dps meter is personal.

:) Regardless of how much people are going to fight off the damage meters, for w/e reason, a meta will emerge and will continue to do what it’s been doing.

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Aren’t you the person who tried to get HoT content nerfed?

( Not considering the fact that full zerker still works in HoT anyways )

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

20 wipes? Let me guess, you were the one doing the least amount of work, right?

AWACS.6537:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

20 wipes? Let me guess, you were the one doing the least amount of work, right?

kitten u are a genius! kitten

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds – or rather, proper, true meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

Furthermore, it will kind of “crowd source” balance testing for ANet – making it easier for them to identify problems and fix them.

Seems like there are a number of casuals in this thread who don’t know who you are or what you do for the community.

For those complaining that this would fill the game with elitists, wake up, because they’re already here. The difference however is that their elitism is based on ignorance. If you don’t do the kind of content that leads you to encounter these people, then you won’t have to worry about the existence of a dps meter either way.

Having real numbers for fights would be beneficial to the community at this point.

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

OnionXI.6735:

Seems like there are a number of casuals in this thread who don’t know who you are or what you do for the community.

For those complaining that this would fill the game with elitists, wake up, because they’re already here. The difference however is that their elitism is based on ignorance. If you don’t do the kind of content that leads you to encounter these people, then you won’t have to worry about the existence of a dps meter either way.

Having real numbers for fights would be beneficial to the community at this point.

I dont care if he is god, that excatly why i like this game over wow, the elitist have no place here!

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said. Maybe choosing to exclude some words too, like the word “personal” in the “personal dps meter”.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

You did get one part right, just haven’t made further connections from it.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

I dont care if he is god, that excatly why i like this game over wow, the elitist have no place here!

They exist, and will always. How blind you are to them, is dependent on you.

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build. (Meta builds being created by pop streams like Quin69 and who-not, whilst they push they ladder (on which you can see the build they’ve completed that grift with…))

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Zero Day.2594:

Nemesis.8593:

…

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.
…

Essentially this guys.

Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), there will always be a “meta”. A mass amount of people will accept like always, and will doing the normal/expected thing of excluding casuals and whatnot… It’s unavoidable, undeniable, inevitable – get over it.

So, why not have the proper tools to do it right? To actually build a meta on solid data rather than napkin notes. It’s not as harmful as people think. Of course they can make the dps meter just show personal dps, so that dps isn’t the reason someone is kicked (since other’s still can’t see it).

a damage meter is very harmful for the community it will destroy the very fabric of what makes guild war great! Guild war at its current state is a very friendly game. For example I just completely a level 100 fractal after 20 wipes and nobody complained we just kept trying until we succeed! now imagine what a damage meter will do? people will whine complain and boot, it is not the game i want!
plus I think a lot of the fun is not knowing how good your build really is, it is about experimenting and feeling the game and the character!

Couple of things…

The dps meter can be either personal or not-personal (group can see it), it will have different effects. In the event that the group can see your dps, that will be the reason they kick you. In the event that the group can’t see your dps, you will be kicked due to not complying with the “meta” (which WILL exist, regardless of having a meter or not.)

Having a personal dps meter, which will leading to creating a meta based on factual data will lead to better meta builds.

The fact that you wiped 20 times and no one complained, isn’t because a dps meter didn’t exist. It’s because the group allowed it, they weren’t impatient. Perhaps, they didn’t even care for meta builds either.

Having a personal dps meter will lead to no change in community, but will lead to solid meta builds with real numbers as proofs. Since, let me explain it again, since people won’t be able to kick you for dps (since they can’t see it), they will still kick you for not complying to the meta if it’s something they care about (which already happens!). Which again, in your case of wiping 20 times, people perhaps weren’t impatient and maybe didn’t care for the meta…

You’re not afraid of a personal dps meter, you’re afraid of the meta and the people that care too much for it.

---

Hell, it will even help you experiment properly with different builds.

I honestly don’t see any harm from having personal dps meters.

we dont need a dps meter for meta, as I have played many RPG I know all the harm a dps meter can do to a group moral. When I was raid leading in world of warcraft one of the biggest rules is never insult me the raid leader, because as a raid leader I am responsible for group moral. Usually what happens is a tank who thinks he is so valuable to the raid he can say whatever he want and insult anyone he wants, and it usually is a big surprise when I boot his kitten . You see where I am going? if people join raid, get booted, get harassed, get kicked, get insulted, this ripple effect will effect every other part of the game, and over time guild war 2 will become just like wow, and I did not buy guild war 2 because it is like wow, i bought guild war 2 excatly because it is not wow. I also strongly believe the best part of the game is not have a damage meter, this allows me to try different build and to get a feel for different build, that alone is worth the price of admission!

Okay, clearly you’re either not reading or/and or comprehending the things I’ve said.

Thanks for the small argument we had.

i can say the same thing about what u said! you dont seem to understand me clearly either! have you played diablo 3? do you see a damage meter in that game? and does everyone in that game optimize for best build and can everyone run high great rift? i mean very high? you are obviously a noob to mmo!

Yet, meta builds in that game still exist. Groups still don’t take you seriously if you don’t run a certain class and certain build.

Not sure how that’s different or better. It’s the same, and a personal dps meter will not change that.

its fine if a group does not want certain build, see you dont get my point, my point is all about the harm a dps meter will bring to the friendly community which is guild war 2! if you cant see that then you are not very smart!