Guild Wars 2

Bratec.7136:

Why people ignore that you HAVE to stack, you are asked by group leaders and game asks (via mechanics) for this.

It’s called teamwork.

maddoctor.2738:

Bratec.7136:

Why people ignore that you HAVE to stack, you are asked by group leaders and game asks (via mechanics) for this.

It’s called teamwork.

I played many MMOs with teamwork groups. Never i heard that “melee stacking” equals teamwork.

Ashen.2907:

lilypop.7819:

It’s wrong to say Ranger are suboptimal when ranged.

An LB Ranger will have a pet that gains melee buffs and can buff in turn, will stack invulnerability and heal peeps around the target. The latter two mean that ranged Ranger will do less damage than buffed melee group members for balance reasons. But this is only suboptimal if your only yardstick is damage delivered by a player.

Another utility in LB Ranger in a group is that they or their pet can quickly revive downed players if the group is smart enough to move the target when this happens.

Also note that a key feature of LB Ranger is the ability to damage all foes in the line of sight of the arrows – as such the Ranger has to continuously move at ranged to max their damage – which few do ofc No minor ability in Pvp/WvW but usually pointless in boss fights.

In addition many bosses have weak dps but strong buffing adds that sit at a distance, Ranger is the ideal profession to deal with these – ofc many Rangers don’t.
Do
In contrast, Ranger as melee – currently – is quite weak even when buffed etc. The Ranger profession – even as Druid! – is inherently optimal at ranged.

It’s sad that so many berate the Ranger players for not fighting melee – which makes the profession quite pointless for the Ranger player. Ranger is actually a very good group profession and I suspect the real problem is other players poor mindset and the fact that a weak ranger player’s failings tend to be more obvious to other players.

It’s certainly at very fun profession to play and others players need to loosen up a bit and not be so dogmatic whilst ranger players learn their craft!

Ofc it doesn’t help one bit that the game has no build template system, but there you go.

The fact that the ranger has some things to do that might, might, be situationally useful doesnt mean that they are not suboptimal when playing at range. For what it is worth, there are multiple other professions that are better at dealing with the strong adds that you mention.

I am not arguing rangers are best of profession at this or that, I am pointing out that ranged ranger makes contributions that may not be so obvious to non-ranger players or are measureable via dps meters.

Frankly the reason I stopped playing WoW was because of dps fanaticism, it would be a shame for GW2 to be reduced to such narrow simplicity as that once great game. I for one would think twice before telling another player how to play their class/profession merely because I know what the game end point is. If you go the black/white route you end up with a black/white game.

Also note that raid bosses are designed to have very narrow success windows, it’s foolish to apply that rubric to all engagements. This is essentially where WoW went awry after a few years, the developers didn’t make the game boring, the player base did.

Bratec.7136:

I played many MMOs with teamwork groups. Never i heard that “melee stacking” equals teamwork.

When you stack you get buffs, you get buffs from your team mates → teamwork.
When you don’t stack and run around like a headless chicken you do not cooperate with your team mates, you do not buff, nor receive buffs → no teamwork.

As for your other MMOs in a lot of MMOs I’ve played, like most of them, they did not place such importance in buffs. Even the giant of MMORPGs has only a handful of buffs and most abilities buff yourself, instead of buffing others. Therefore, there is no need for players to stay at such a close range because buffs play a much less important role, it’s all about doing dps, healing and holding aggro.

In GW2 the big three, PS, Chrono and Druid can triple the damage output of the team (group of 5). Therefore, buffs in this game are the absolute king and maximizing those buffs (by being close together) is how you can finish content in the fastest and most efficient way.

This is a game of buffs, while in most other MMORPGs party wide buffs (with limited duration) are rare

This is because the game lack trinity mechanic. Its one of the downsides of tank absence and I feel you. You actually can play as regular trinity game, most of the time. You need tanky player and healer to aggro mobs and after several secs. dps can start deal damage from distance. unless mobs AI is targeting the person who is furthest away it will work.
However, the stacking game play is the most efficient.

maddoctor.2738:

lilypop.7819:

Maybe, but the key drawback of ranger melee is that the pet will steal buffs etc from another group player. So for group melee, rangers would also have to stow their pet.

You cannot stow your pet in combat.
The pet won’t steal buffs because players have higher priority than pets

My error.

maddoctor.2738:

Bratec.7136:

I played many MMOs with teamwork groups. Never i heard that “melee stacking” equals teamwork.

When you stack you get buffs, you get buffs from your team mates -> teamwork.
When you don’t stack and run around like a headless chicken you do not cooperate with your team mates, you do not buff, nor receive buffs -> no teamwork.

As for your other MMOs in a lot of MMOs I’ve played, like most of them, they did not place such importance in buffs. Even the giant of MMORPGs has only a handful of buffs and most abilities buff yourself, instead of buffing others. Therefore, there is no need for players to stay at such a close range because buffs play a much less important role, it’s all about doing dps, healing and holding aggro.

In GW2 the big three, PS, Chrono and Druid can triple the damage output of the team (group of 5). Therefore, buffs in this game are the absolute king and maximizing those buffs (by being close together) is how you can finish content in the fastest and most efficient way.

This is a game of buffs, while in most other MMORPGs party wide buffs (with limited duration) are rare

You realise that by giving buffs wider range – nothing would change except that classes (players) who prefer ranged playstyle will also get them?

I.e. now they are forced in melee, want they or not, but with this change they can stay in melee (if they like melee) or can stay range (if they like range).

You prefer to play in melee, its ok. But all routes should be viable.

mazut.4296:

This is because the game lack trinity mechanic. Its one of the downsides of tank absence and I feel you. You actually can play as regular trinity game, most of the time. You need tanky player and healer to aggro mobs and after several secs. dps can start deal damage from distance. unless mobs AI is targeting the person who is furthest away it will work.
However, the stacking game play is the most efficient.

We have tanks (chrono), healers (druids) and other classes (dps). Its that they all stack in melee range.

p.s. As ranger we dont get good melee weapons. Weapons like greatsword, for example, are terrible for PvE. So we “melee” with bows/throwing axes <- i dont think this is right.

Bratec.7136:

You realise that by giving buffs wider range – nothing would change except that classes (players) who prefer ranged playstyle will also get them?

Giving buffs range would make the encounters much much easier, because now positioning is important. With longer range, positioning is useless. Now to get the buffs you must be close, which means less room to avoid red circles or important boss abilities. As an example, if they allowed all buffs to be acquired at longer range then the blue area of effect attack of Vale Guardian (the teleport) would be useless, only the one tanking would need to take care of it while everyone else would simply ignore it.

Gorseval’s slam, Sabetha’s timed bomb, Slothasor’s sake, nearly all of the mechanics of Matthias, Keep Construct’s cc phase, Cairn’s teleport circles, Samarog’s slam, Deimos’s slam and so on would be worthless attacks. That’s only the Raid bosses, because in Fractals and Dungeons, even with a longer range, players would still stack in melee because otherwise the boss would move around too much.
So your “nothing will change” comment is false.

Bratec.7136:

mazut.4296:

This is because the game lack trinity mechanic. Its one of the downsides of tank absence and I feel you. You actually can play as regular trinity game, most of the time. You need tanky player and healer to aggro mobs and after several secs. dps can start deal damage from distance. unless mobs AI is targeting the person who is furthest away it will work.
However, the stacking game play is the most efficient.

We have tanks (chrono), healers (druids) and other classes (dps). Its that they all stack in melee range.

p.s. As ranger we dont get good melee weapons. Weapons like greatsword, for example, are terrible for PvE. So we “melee” with bows/throwing axes <- i dont think this is right.

Thats actually to your benefit. You have weapons that are good in both melee and mid range. Be happy. About staying at range, as I said its absolutely possible in most situations. Its up to you and your team to discuss if you want to use this strategy.
Also, not only mesmer and druid can tank and heal…

lilypop.7819:

Ashen.2907:

lilypop.7819:

It’s wrong to say Ranger are suboptimal when ranged.

An LB Ranger will have a pet that gains melee buffs and can buff in turn, will stack invulnerability and heal peeps around the target. The latter two mean that ranged Ranger will do less damage than buffed melee group members for balance reasons. But this is only suboptimal if your only yardstick is damage delivered by a player.

Another utility in LB Ranger in a group is that they or their pet can quickly revive downed players if the group is smart enough to move the target when this happens.

Also note that a key feature of LB Ranger is the ability to damage all foes in the line of sight of the arrows – as such the Ranger has to continuously move at ranged to max their damage – which few do ofc No minor ability in Pvp/WvW but usually pointless in boss fights.

In addition many bosses have weak dps but strong buffing adds that sit at a distance, Ranger is the ideal profession to deal with these – ofc many Rangers don’t.
Do
In contrast, Ranger as melee – currently – is quite weak even when buffed etc. The Ranger profession – even as Druid! – is inherently optimal at ranged.

It’s sad that so many berate the Ranger players for not fighting melee – which makes the profession quite pointless for the Ranger player. Ranger is actually a very good group profession and I suspect the real problem is other players poor mindset and the fact that a weak ranger player’s failings tend to be more obvious to other players.

It’s certainly at very fun profession to play and others players need to loosen up a bit and not be so dogmatic whilst ranger players learn their craft!

Ofc it doesn’t help one bit that the game has no build template system, but there you go.

The fact that the ranger has some things to do that might, might, be situationally useful doesnt mean that they are not suboptimal when playing at range. For what it is worth, there are multiple other professions that are better at dealing with the strong adds that you mention.

I am not arguing rangers are best of profession at this or that, I am pointing out that ranged ranger makes contributions that may not be so obvious to non-ranger players or are measureable via dps meters.

Frankly the reason I stopped playing WoW was because of dps fanaticism, it would be a shame for GW2 to be reduced to such narrow simplicity as that once great game. I for one would think twice before telling another player how to play their class/profession merely because I know what the game end point is. If you go the black/white route you end up with a black/white game.

Also note that raid bosses are designed to have very narrow success windows, it’s foolish to apply that rubric to all engagements. This is essentially where WoW went awry after a few years, the developers didn’t make the game boring, the player base did.

You might have wanted to use a different turn of phrase then. I was only responding to your claim that it was incorrect to describe ranger ranged play as suboptimal. It in fact is suboptimal. Even as a ranger main player I can acknowledge that.

maddoctor.2738:

Bratec.7136:

I played many MMOs with teamwork groups. Never i heard that “melee stacking” equals teamwork.

When you stack you get buffs, you get buffs from your team mates -> teamwork.
When you don’t stack and run around like a headless chicken you do not cooperate with your team mates, you do not buff, nor receive buffs -> no teamwork.

As for your other MMOs in a lot of MMOs I’ve played, like most of them, they did not place such importance in buffs. Even the giant of MMORPGs has only a handful of buffs and most abilities buff yourself, instead of buffing others. Therefore, there is no need for players to stay at such a close range because buffs play a much less important role, it’s all about doing dps, healing and holding aggro.

In GW2 the big three, PS, Chrono and Druid can triple the damage output of the team (group of 5). Therefore, buffs in this game are the absolute king and maximizing those buffs (by being close together) is how you can finish content in the fastest and most efficient way.

This is a game of buffs, while in most other MMORPGs party wide buffs (with limited duration) are rare

WoW became a game of ‘Simon Says’, and peeps were fast and efficient screaming at anyone who didn’t do as ‘Simon’ said. As a game after a few years it became considerably less enjoyable if you were not a friend of Simon.

Careful what you wish for!

mazut.4296:

Thats actually to your benefit. You have weapons that are good in both melee and mid range. Be happy. About staying at range, as I said its absolutely possible in most situations. Its up to you and your team to discuss if you want to use this strategy.
Also, not only mesmer and druid can tank and heal…

Didnt you read me? Ranger dont have good melee weapons.
IF we had, than stacking in melee would made some sence, at least, now there is none.

lilypop.7819:

Careful what you wish for!

I’m not wishing for the game to become like that. I’m stating why stacking works like this in the game (due to buffs). To remove stacking they need to make the game work like WoW and I don’t want that

Increasing the radius of the majority of buffs and heals sounds like such a small thing, to simply allow you play your class the way you personally prefer, but it will end up having far-reachinging consequences.
All of the healing skills and buffs will require a big reblace if they are changed to allow you to just spam them while standing in the middle of a fight, all of the boons will need a looking into if you now do not even have to care about positioning.
The only way to fight the Boon META is to use cleave, wells, hit the backlines, etc.
Those changes would require a great increase of the cleave and AoE in the game counter the new ability to spread all over the place while still receiving full heals and boons.
There are already two ways to run raid bosses, one is melee but more dangerous and the other one is ranged but much slower. This change would require an increase to all of the boss AoE and fields you have to avoid as well as the boss cleave.
Making it a complete pain in the ass for anyone wanting to stay in melee range while also supporting the “headless chicken” playstyle rather than anything that is coordinated.

The game is not balanced around backliners having stacked buffs and heals. The only incentive to even go melee in this game, something that is missing in a lot of other games, are is the melee boon support and the healing. I agree that they went a bit overboard with it over the years but these changes would turn it upside down.

What dangerous “melee” people are talking about in fractals/raids?

Currently, you are almost immortal in decent group when stacking in melee. Even if you go down (unlikely, but may happen), you are immediatly brought up since you are all near.

What “coordination” in melee stack? Just get to boss and spam attacks, since your heals/buffs are being taken care of.

Bratec.7136:

What “coordination” in melee stack? Just get to boss and spam attacks, since your heals/buffs are being taken care of.

You know those who are healing and buffing need to perform some rotations that range from easy to really complex. And if you “spam” attacks you are doing it wrong.

All you want is a way to do content while you are spamming your attacks from a distant corner, far away of any mechanics of the boss, while your teammates buffs and heals reach you and keep you alive. That’s never going to happen

maddoctor.2738:

Bratec.7136:

What “coordination” in melee stack? Just get to boss and spam attacks, since your heals/buffs are being taken care of.

You know those who are healing and buffing need to perform some rotations that range from easy to really complex. And if you “spam” attacks you are doing it wrong.

All you want is a way to do content while you are spamming your attacks from a distant corner, far away of any mechanics of the boss, while your teammates buffs and heals reach you and keep you alive. That’s never going to happen

Did you try staying at range for most bosses in raids and fractal fights?

Yes/no. And which fights you went ranged.

So i can understand do you know amount of damage that goes your way at ranged (900) distance.

I understand that most people are melee-stacking (since its meta and “right” way to do it), but if you have no experience at how much damage comes at ranged distance – you can ask, no need to make assumptions without experience.

Bratec.7136:

Did you try staying at range for most bosses in raids and fractal fights?

Vale Guardian: Ranged when on green circle duty
Gorseval: Ranged killing orbs (before the no-updraft strategy)
Sabetha: ranged when kiting the bombs
Slothasor: no ranged attack needed
Matthias: ranged at phase 3 and at abomination phase when you need to avoid the exploding circles
Keep Construct: ranged at green circles, ranged when attacking an add that is following the one orb pusher
Xera: clearing the shards from range
Cairn: obvious ranged when at green circle and when you get the red debuff
Mursaat Overseer: no point in ranging here, there is no space anyway
Samarog: no range here either
Deimos: at ~60% everyone other than the black kiter and the tank use ranged attacks (safe strat)

So other than Slothasor, Mursaat Overseer and Samarog all other raid boss fights require some form of ranged attack from at least one member of the Raid team.

The amount of damage you take when at range is hardly relevant. Increasing the range of buffs would remove major mechanics from all fights, dumping them down considerably. It’s as simple as that.

I am talking about full fight spending ranged, outside safety of melee-stack. I.e. you are not melee-stack all fight, not like just took ranged weapon staying in stack Or took weapon for some gimmick and continue melee after that.

What “major mechanics” you are talking about, your party wont have to melee-stack? Because main mechanic on almost all bosses is to melee stack. That is so main mechanic that you would be probably kicked if you stay out of melee blob in fight.

About removing strategy by getting area of buffs, you will get same buffs and heals as melee and ranged.

Only difference is that you melee will have to avoid melee AOE and ranged will have to avoid Ranged AoE. All bosses have some melee and some ranged attack, all players get damage, you are actually not safer currently at range since you dont get party heals.

Going ranged you lose perma-alacrity, perma-quickness, 25 stacks of mights, all protections. And fight goes much longer. And the longer fight drag, the more chances for group to wipe. So this means, its not “safer” not because you are on your own without heals and buffs, but also because more chances of wipe.

Bratec.7136:

I am talking about full fight spending ranged, outside safety of melee-stack. I.e. you are not melee-stack all fight, not like just took ranged weapon staying in stack Or took weapon for some gimmick and continue melee after that.

You are indeed spending most of the fight ranged in all those situations I mentioned. I get it you have no experience of Raids perhaps you should run some. Swapping between melee and ranged is what makes a good encounter, why stay only at range?

What “major mechanics” you are talking about, your party wont have to melee-stack?

You want only for yourself to stay at ranged and ignore all mechanics while your group stacks in melee and takes all the mechanics in the face? Aren’t you a bit selfish here?

I answered about the mechanics already, it’s here
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/As-ranged-player-i-need-to-be-always-in-melee/page/3#post6746675

You obviously ignored it.

maddoctor.2738:

So let me get this. Now some want a change to how melee and ranged combat works in the game, affecting the entire balance of the game on all game modes, just because someone wants to “role play” their ranger with a bow?

We’ve seen more unreasonable requests in the past, but this sure is one of them.

Reminds me of that person I had in my group when I run Crucible of Eternity that refused to come in melee range because “Subject Alpha is too ugly, I won’t come close to him”

The irony…

PvE in this game isn’t balanced, that is the point, in a well balanced game people can actually go ranged…

As you are apparently ignorant of it, the combat and classes in this game were designed around their “e-sport” and fighting over a conquest node, hence why PvE is the poorly designed joke that it is.

zinkz.7045:

maddoctor.2738:

So let me get this. Now some want a change to how melee and ranged combat works in the game, affecting the entire balance of the game on all game modes, just because someone wants to “role play” their ranger with a bow?

We’ve seen more unreasonable requests in the past, but this sure is one of them.

Reminds me of that person I had in my group when I run Crucible of Eternity that refused to come in melee range because “Subject Alpha is too ugly, I won’t come close to him”

The irony…

PvE in this game isn’t balanced, that is the point, in a well balanced game people can actually go ranged…

You can go ranged tho.

So basically OP is surprised that refusing to play optimally is less effective than playing effectively. Truely staggering.

NotOverlyCheesy.9427:

So basically OP is surprised that refusing to play optimally is less effective than playing effectively. Truely staggering.

The only thing “truely staggering” is how you miss the point of his post…

TheRandomGuy.7246:

zinkz.7045:

maddoctor.2738:

So let me get this. Now some want a change to how melee and ranged combat works in the game, affecting the entire balance of the game on all game modes, just because someone wants to “role play” their ranger with a bow?

We’ve seen more unreasonable requests in the past, but this sure is one of them.

Reminds me of that person I had in my group when I run Crucible of Eternity that refused to come in melee range because “Subject Alpha is too ugly, I won’t come close to him”

The irony…

PvE in this game isn’t balanced, that is the point, in a well balanced game people can actually go ranged…

You can go ranged tho.

Maybe read the thread…

zinkz.7045:

PvE in this game isn’t balanced, that is the point, in a well balanced game people can actually go ranged…

You mean can go leech?

Went through the entire thread. You still can go ranged. Even in raids. Get a ranged only squad and ask chrono to drop wells on your ranged group.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Went through the entire thread. You still can go ranged. Even in raids. Get a ranged only squad and ask chrono to drop wells on your ranged group.

It’s also possible to be “ranged”, just not max range, by staying within about 240-300 of the main cluster. It might not be optimal boon sharing, but it should still put you outside the usual cleaves and PBAoE that’s problematic for some people.

Think “mid-range” instead of long range.

Yeah range really sucks compared to melee. All other MMOs I’ve played have both equally viable and there’s a healthy balance between both playstyles, but here, no, range must suck because reasons. I understand that it’s hard to develop challenging encounters for both roles but it is doable as long as it’s not just lazy circular AoEs spamming centered on characters.

And even if there must be a risk/reward balance, it shouldn’t be 60-70% extra dps for melee like now but 10-15%, it would be more than enough to be attractive and I would surely not quit playing my melee character if range was viable.

Rennie.6750:

Yeah range really sucks compared to melee. All other MMOs I’ve played have both equally viable and there’s a healthy balance between both playstyles, but here, no, range must suck because reasons. I understand that it’s hard to develop challenging encounters for both roles but it is doable as long as it’s not just lazy circular AoEs spamming centered on characters.

And even if there must be a risk/reward balance, it shouldn’t be 60-70% extra dps for melee like now but 10-15%, it would be more than enough to be attractive and I would surely not quit playing my melee character if range was viable.

To be honest, in other MMOs, one of the main benefits of range compared to melee, and why melee characters get more damage, is that ranged characters require little to zero time to refocus a target. Melee have to chase targets. Range sees the whole battlefield. Melee has to swivel cameras and position more carefully. So in that, the ranged/melee disparity doesn’t really bother me.

OP’s specific reason was more linked to boon sharing and needing to be with the stack to get all the buffs (or else be called lousy names and kicked). That.. I’m a little on the fence about. The range on those boons isn’t so much that a ranged character should be sharing pixels with his teammates, but it is possible to back away or flank without completely leaving the team’s sphere of influence.

Bratec.7136:

Going ranged you lose perma-alacrity, perma-quickness, 25 stacks of mights, all protections. And fight goes much longer. And the longer fight drag, the more chances for group to wipe. So this means, its not “safer” not because you are on your own without heals and buffs, but also because more chances of wipe.

You’re confusing risk to yourself and risk to the group.

Ranged combat, with very limited exception, is almost always safer for you as an individual player. You probably don’t have the full attention of the boss, are safe from the boss’ melee cleaves, and have more time to respond to changes in attack pattern and other threats to you.

All the things you mention in the post I quoted are about how the risk to the party is higher when ppl remain at range. It’s just that the situation moves quickly from “I am at range and am kinda safe here, forget the rest of the group” to “I am at range and am suddenly unsafe because the fight is out of control”.

Bratec.7136:

Why people ignore that you HAVE to stack, you are asked by group leaders and game asks (via mechanics) for this.

No matter, you prefer ranged or melee, you will stack in melee. No choice here. Unless you want to do less damage (= i.e. fight takes longer which leads to higher group wipe chance) and have less survival since you wont have immortality of 2 druid spam-healing your group and all defence/evade buffs you get.

Nobody is ignoring the fact that stacking is the optimal method for completing group content, that’s by design, and most of us like it this way. You are ignoring the opportunity cost of range vs melee. You want to range, with all of the benefits of melee. I disagree with that, and you haven’t provided a valid or logical argument for why it should change, other than because you like to play at range.

At the end of the day, if you don’t want to stack, don’t stack. It isn’t required to complete anything, not even raids. It is required, if you want to do it in the optimal method.

Bratec.7136:

maddoctor.2738:

Bratec.7136:

I played many MMOs with teamwork groups. Never i heard that “melee stacking” equals teamwork.

When you stack you get buffs, you get buffs from your team mates -> teamwork.
When you don’t stack and run around like a headless chicken you do not cooperate with your team mates, you do not buff, nor receive buffs -> no teamwork.

As for your other MMOs in a lot of MMOs I’ve played, like most of them, they did not place such importance in buffs. Even the giant of MMORPGs has only a handful of buffs and most abilities buff yourself, instead of buffing others. Therefore, there is no need for players to stay at such a close range because buffs play a much less important role, it’s all about doing dps, healing and holding aggro.

In GW2 the big three, PS, Chrono and Druid can triple the damage output of the team (group of 5). Therefore, buffs in this game are the absolute king and maximizing those buffs (by being close together) is how you can finish content in the fastest and most efficient way.

This is a game of buffs, while in most other MMORPGs party wide buffs (with limited duration) are rare

You realise that by giving buffs wider range – nothing would change except that classes (players) who prefer ranged playstyle will also get them?

I.e. now they are forced in melee, want they or not, but with this change they can stay in melee (if they like melee) or can stay range (if they like range).

You prefer to play in melee, its ok. But all routes should be viable.

And you do realize that giving boons/buffs/heals wider range would mean that range would have to give up damage or survivability? They are currently balanced around the fact that they aren’t going to be receiving those boons/buffs/heals while at range.

Just tell them “My pet is stacked with you”

Bratec.7136:

mazut.4296:

Thats actually to your benefit. You have weapons that are good in both melee and mid range. Be happy. About staying at range, as I said its absolutely possible in most situations. Its up to you and your team to discuss if you want to use this strategy.
Also, not only mesmer and druid can tank and heal…

Didnt you read me? Ranger dont have good melee weapons.
IF we had, than stacking in melee would made some sence, at least, now there is none.

Have you tried sword?

Linken.6345:

Bratec.7136:

mazut.4296:

Thats actually to your benefit. You have weapons that are good in both melee and mid range. Be happy. About staying at range, as I said its absolutely possible in most situations. Its up to you and your team to discuss if you want to use this strategy.
Also, not only mesmer and druid can tank and heal…

Didnt you read me? Ranger dont have good melee weapons.
IF we had, than stacking in melee would made some sence, at least, now there is none.

Have you tried sword?

I’m weirdly fond of greatsword for melee. Probably trash dps, but it has mobility, vuln, block, evade on auto, and stun. Overall useful tool for fights.

CptAurellian.9537:

Sartharina.3542:

The stupidity in this game is about characters that use Longbows and Rifles and other ranged weapons (They don’t even have to be Longbow Rangers – Rifle Warriors. Longbow Warriors, Staff Eles, Staff Necros, Longbow Guardians, Scepter Guardians, Staff Mesmer, Scepter Mesmer.) all end up having to stack in melee range, which everyone outside of Guild Wars 2 rightfully recognizes as Completely kittening Stupid.

That almost sounds as if people were all over the place in the dungeons/raids of other MMOs, which is hardly the case unless specific encounter mechanics enforce it. Having the group close together has always offered a bunch of benefits, and since melee characters are rather range-restricted, that has always been close to melee range. GW2 does stack a bit tighter than other games, but the principle is exactly the same.

No, they’re not all over the place, but other MMOs do have a strong “Backline” and “Frontline”, with mechanics based around the presence of other players, not their proximity. And the extra space allowed in other games makes a world of difference in how enjoyable the game is to play and watch play out.

Bratec.7136:

Why people ignore that you HAVE to stack, you are asked by group leaders and game asks (via mechanics) for this.

Because it’s the stupidest encounter design concept to ever blight any game. Seriously – for everything this game does right, the “EVERYONE STACK IN MELEE” meta has turned this game’s instanced content into the laughingstock of the industry. It looks bad. It plays bad, and it makes any content in this game that requires it bad.

lilypop.7819:

Maybe, but the key drawback of ranger melee is that the pet will steal buffs etc from another group player. So for group melee, rangers would also have to stow their pet.

Players are prioritized over pets and minions. If your pet got the buff but some player in your group didn’t, it means that player simply wasn’t in range.

lilypop.7819:

I am not arguing rangers are best of profession at this or that, I am pointing out that ranged ranger makes contributions that may not be so obvious to non-ranger players or are measureable via dps meters.

And we’re pointing out that those contributions are in no way connected to being a “ranged” ranger.

Sartharina.3542:

Because it’s the stupidest encounter design concept to ever blight any game. Seriously – for everything this game does right, the “EVERYONE STACK IN MELEE” meta has turned this game’s instanced content into the laughingstock of the industry. It looks bad. It plays bad, and it makes any content in this game that requires it bad.

And if they increased the buff/heal range to allow players to play from ranged they’d be ignoring all the boss mechanics and attacks. That must be great game design indeed.

Take a look at any open world boss to see what happens without the stack in melee. At any Wyvern fight you can stay at a distance and semi-afk the encounter because no attack of the boss will ever hit you, unless you don’t CC it. The Chak Gerent when mobile poses no threat to a ranged player who can safely semi-afk the encounter, while, for obvious reasons, melee players have to put so much more effort in the fight.

That’s why Raid bosses have damaging auras around them, so you can’t just semi-afk the encounter from a safe distance, and instead must remain grouped, even at range, to receive buffs and healing. Without the damaging auras all the Raid bosses would be cheesed to death. Watch the solo Druid Cairn kill for proof.

As for Dungeon and Fractal bosses, you can range a lot of them from a very safe distance. Sure it will take longer, but it’s much safer.
All Caudecu’s Manor bosses have short range attacks that you can safely ignore while ranging them from a distance.
While ranging the Twilight Arbor bosses you can ignore the spirit adds. The last boss of Aetherpath is much easier to range than to melee, provided you have push skills.
SE1 P1 and P3 cannot even touch you at range, circle strafe around them while attacking them til they are dead.
You can kite Giganticus Lupicus around from a distance, have a much longer window to dodge his attacks, ignore his melee attacks and in general make the fight super easy. You can attack Subject Alpha from a distance and ignore all of his attacks easily, provided you don’t move much.

Range = safe. Melee = fast.

Coffietire.2783:

Clam down all, PoF has answered your prayers. In the demo, there were bosses who had this mechanic that boils down to, “You have to use ranged now, you have to use melee now, okay back to range.”

Let’s not forget about the deadeye who can offer mightstacking from range^^. You want to create big damages from range: have a group that includes chronos, deadeyes and any class that can go full range damage.

Bratec.7136:

Solution: since forced “stacking” happens because low buff range – increase buff range to 900.

I would instead want a sensible buff system.

Either make it like in WoW, have actual raid buffs (formalized, too), so that classes can bring various buffs and each buff can be brought by multiple classes and is either “there” or “not there” (no stupid stack radii or anything), or – and I’d prefer this – bring back the concentration buff system from DAoC.

This would in turn enable a “proper” buff role. Those roles have concentration buffs, which last until cancelled, but take from a pool of how many of these buffs you can have enabled at the same time.

Carighan.6758:

Bratec.7136:

Solution: since forced “stacking” happens because low buff range – increase buff range to 900.

I would instead want a sensible buff system.

Either make it like in WoW, have actual raid buffs (formalized, too), so that classes can bring various buffs and each buff can be brought by multiple classes and is either “there” or “not there” (no stupid stack radii or anything), or – and I’d prefer this – bring back the concentration buff system from DAoC.

This would in turn enable a “proper” buff role. Those roles have concentration buffs, which last until cancelled, but take from a pool of how many of these buffs you can have enabled at the same time.

I’d have to ask how WoW is doing it post-Legion, since things got really simplified. It used to be you’d cast a buff and, bam, it goes to the entire party for 30-60 minutes. Something like that.

But, as I recall, WoW also scrapped most-to-all of those buffs with its recent expansion. I recall this because Hunters used to have the ability to fill in for just about any missing buff, and that was scrapped entirely. (Totes bitter about that, and one reason I unsubbed.) So while it opened up the playing field for dungeons/raids to bring along their choice of class without worrying about filling in buff slots (not entirely sure that’s a good thing), it also lost a lot of the synergy that GW2 has.

It’s pretty clear that GW2 combat values positioning and compounding boons, but I’m not entirely sure how to keep that while breaking the stack-n-smack tactic.

There is no trade-off between damage and survavility. That’s why total majority of groups are melee-stacked. Because choice is obvious.

Most melee AOE’s are eaten by players and healed/blocked thru.

You cant allow to eat AoE’s on ranged with 40-50% heal on long cd.

This post is after Vale guardian fight in raid, where _i_didnt_heal_once. Because i didnt needed to. While always staying in melee range.

maddoctor.2738:

Sartharina.3542:

Because it’s the stupidest encounter design concept to ever blight any game. Seriously – for everything this game does right, the “EVERYONE STACK IN MELEE” meta has turned this game’s instanced content into the laughingstock of the industry. It looks bad. It plays bad, and it makes any content in this game that requires it bad.

And if they increased the buff/heal range to allow players to play from ranged they’d be ignoring all the boss mechanics and attacks. That must be great game design indeed.

Take a look at any open world boss to see what happens without the stack in melee. At any Wyvern fight you can stay at a distance and semi-afk the encounter because no attack of the boss will ever hit you, unless you don’t CC it. The Chak Gerent when mobile poses no threat to a ranged player who can safely semi-afk the encounter, while, for obvious reasons, melee players have to put so much more effort in the fight.

That’s why Raid bosses have damaging auras around them, so you can’t just semi-afk the encounter from a safe distance, and instead must remain grouped, even at range, to receive buffs and healing. Without the damaging auras all the Raid bosses would be cheesed to death. Watch the solo Druid Cairn kill for proof.

As for Dungeon and Fractal bosses, you can range a lot of them from a very safe distance. Sure it will take longer, but it’s much safer.
All Caudecu’s Manor bosses have short range attacks that you can safely ignore while ranging them from a distance.
While ranging the Twilight Arbor bosses you can ignore the spirit adds. The last boss of Aetherpath is much easier to range than to melee, provided you have push skills.
SE1 P1 and P3 cannot even touch you at range, circle strafe around them while attacking them til they are dead.
You can kite Giganticus Lupicus around from a distance, have a much longer window to dodge his attacks, ignore his melee attacks and in general make the fight super easy. You can attack Subject Alpha from a distance and ignore all of his attacks easily, provided you don’t move much.

Range = safe. Melee = fast.

If staying at range renders an encounter trivial, that’ the fault of kittenty encounter design (And yes, the world bosses were plagued by this)

Most of the deaths I see in open-world fights are quite far away from the boss though, anyway, due to the massive area-denial the bosses spew out (Donuts for Gerent). And I find it’s actually easier to survive in melee – not only from the heals, but most melee weapons have defensive skills built into them, as well.

Sartharina.3542:

Most of the deaths I see in open-world fights are quite far away from the boss though, anyway, due to the massive area-denial the bosses spew out (Donuts for Gerent). And I find it’s actually easier to survive in melee – not only from the heals, but most melee weapons have defensive skills built into them, as well.

If you are ranged and get hit by the donuts at Gerent you are doing something wrong. Since they appear when he charges, melee players need to move instantly when he does, while ranged players simply stand still at their current spot. The area denial doesn’t hit players attacking from a long range, only close range players get hit. And if you use a 1200 range weapon you probably don’t even need to move during most fights, just pray the boss doesn’t aggro on you but on another unlucky soul.

When at range you do not need defensive skills, while in melee you can’t survive without them, either you using them or someone else in your group using them. But when at range you don’t need healing nor defensive skills since all attacks can’t even reach you at range.

maddoctor.2738:

Sartharina.3542:

Most of the deaths I see in open-world fights are quite far away from the boss though, anyway, due to the massive area-denial the bosses spew out (Donuts for Gerent). And I find it’s actually easier to survive in melee – not only from the heals, but most melee weapons have defensive skills built into them, as well.

If you are ranged and get hit by the donuts at Gerent you are doing something wrong. Since they appear when he charges, melee players need to move instantly when he does, while ranged players simply stand still at their current spot. The area denial doesn’t hit players attacking from a long range, only close range players get hit. And if you use a 1200 range weapon you probably don’t even need to move during most fights, just pray the boss doesn’t aggro on you but on another unlucky soul.

When at range you do not need defensive skills, while in melee you can’t survive without them, either you using them or someone else in your group using them. But when at range you don’t need healing nor defensive skills since all attacks can’t even reach you at range.

Ranger weapons viable for group play have max range of 900.

About melee “survival problem”, already explained – with spam of aoe heals and defence, there are actually safer to be in melee stack than at ranged position.