Guild Wars 2

So I’ve seen a lot of really bad math, outrageous claims and all sorts of speculation concerning ascended gear and how much it increases your damage. I decided enough is enough, it is time to put the rumors to rest and show the actual numbers.

The attached picture shows the calculations for FULL ascended gear. This includes 2x one handed weapons, full ascended armor, full ascended trinkets, and full infusions (13 offensive, 3 defensive). It also includes standard food buff, trait line contribution, and runes of the undead.

As you can see from the picture the % damage increase is almost precisely 5% under ideal circumstances.

It should be noted that precision and condition duration play absolutely 0 role in the final calculation because a standard necro can already cap bleeds on a target so they play no role in the damage. Toughness is included for the runes of the undead #6 bonus. Torment is placed at 3 stacks since this is the most a necro can currently apply under any circumstances.

When I get home tonight I will look up the numbers on scepter direct damage to add to the calculation, however that is very complicated and will almost certainly not have an effect on the final outcome. (it hits in the region of 100dps, so even with a 50% increase from ascended stats that would only be adding in an extra 50dps, changing the final result to 7%)

So please start spreading some truth around. At least for condition damage specs the increase is a flat 5%, not 15% or other huge numbers i’ve seen flying around.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

At least for condition damage specs

Could you repeat this for a non-condition spec (warrior maybe?)…preferably with berserker stats?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

…full ascended armor…

Where did you farmed/crafted yours? I really wanna get mine too

Rooks Zaer.5846:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

At least for condition damage specs

Could you repeat this for a non-condition spec (warrior maybe?)…preferably with berserker stats?

It’s certainly something I can look into, but it gets much more complicated for direct damage due to the sheer number of factors to consider. Just to give you an idea you need to consider:

1. Power
2. Crit Chance
3. Crit Damage
4. Weapon damage
5. Armor of target

Now for condition damage it is a fairly simple formula for each condition and there is 100% chance it will apply the exact same damage each tick. For direct damage you have to include the crit % chance as well as the interplay between that, the crit damage and the base damage.

That is why we see different numbers all the time for ascended gear damage. People ultimately end up calculating different things (max hit damage, compared to DPS) or end up making a mistake. It is certainly something I will try to calculate myself, but I will want to compare others calculations first to see what has been done.

However I can say with some certainty that since it is a combination of 4 stats increasing instead of just 1, it will almost certainly be higher than 5% for zerker gear.

Nerien.5412:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

…full ascended armor…

Where did you farmed/crafted yours? I really wanna get mine too

The values have been “unofficially” known for months, you can see them on the official wiki if you are interested.

Add all the percentages up for each upgrade over exotic. Now calculate the improvments over exotic for 5 man, 8 man and zerg. Don’t leave out ascended weapons over exotic, trinkets over exotic. Interesting balance.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

However I can say with some certainty that since it is a combination of 4 stats increasing instead of just 1, it will almost certainly be higher than 5% for zerker gear.

Isn’t this where people have been coming up with the double digit % increases? Because of the disproportionate gains in crit damage (compared to other stat combinations) and how the 4 stat increases result in a compounded effect?

GOSU.9574:

Add all the percentages up for each upgrade over exotic. Now calculate the improvements over exotic for 5 man, 8 man and zerg. Don’t leave out ascended weapons over exotic, trinkets over exotic. Interesting balance.

Each class would be different, but if all else remained the same from OPs calculations and the 5man/8man/zerg teams were in the exact builds he described then it would still only be 5%. 5 people with full exotics and 5 people in full ascended (with condi build) would be 5% difference. What calculating are asking to be done? Are you implying that 5 people with a 5% increase over an exotic team would be like 25% better?

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you.

Ascended gear should be stat-ed such that there is no significant increase so people still settle and be confident on exotic gear. Ascended gear should only be a novelty for the PvE farmers.

#WTFANETASCENDEDBBQ

Edit: Also where did you get your numbers?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So I’ve seen a lot of really bad math, outrageous claims and all sorts of speculation concerning ascended gear and how much it increases your damage. I decided enough is enough, it is time to put the rumors to rest and show the actual numbers.

The attached picture shows the calculations for FULL ascended gear. This includes 2x one handed weapons, full ascended armor, full ascended trinkets, and full infusions (13 offensive, 3 defensive). It also includes standard food buff, trait line contribution, and runes of the undead.

As you can see from the picture the % damage increase is almost precisely 5% under ideal circumstances.

It should be noted that precision and condition duration play absolutely 0 role in the final calculation because a standard necro can already cap bleeds on a target so they play no role in the damage. Toughness is included for the runes of the undead #6 bonus. Torment is placed at 3 stacks since this is the most a necro can currently apply under any circumstances.

When I get home tonight I will look up the numbers on scepter direct damage to add to the calculation, however that is very complicated and will almost certainly not have an effect on the final outcome. (it hits in the region of 100dps, so even with a 50% increase from ascended stats that would only be adding in an extra 50dps, changing the final result to 7%)

So please start spreading some truth around. At least for condition damage specs the increase is a flat 5%, not 15% or other huge numbers i’ve seen flying around.

Kinda hard to proclaim something as “truth” when it takes a partial look at it. In your own words condition dmg and precision are taken out of the equation due to a necro being able to cap condi stacks? What about professions that don’t solo cap their conditions? Also torment can be added by the new superior sigil of torment as well as venom sharing from a thief.

Condition damage? My condition specs are the only ones I don’t worry about ascended gear. I do PvE where everything is already capped—why on earth would I want to increase my condition damage?

No, right now, Ascended is about direct damage and I believe even Anet in the person of Mike O has thrown the 10% number increase around when dealing with what can be considered the initial year’s increase in power—if I recall correctly he was just talking trinkets. I would imagine that this would be a good indicator of what their low power curve will be: 10% per year or thereabouts.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

At least for condition damage specs

Could you repeat this for a non-condition spec (warrior maybe?)…preferably with berserker stats?

It’s certainly something I can look into, but it gets much more complicated for direct damage due to the sheer number of factors to consider. Just to give you an idea you need to consider:

1. Power
2. Crit Chance
3. Crit Damage
4. Weapon damage
5. Armor of target

Now for condition damage it is a fairly simple formula for each condition and there is 100% chance it will apply the exact same damage each tick. For direct damage you have to include the crit % chance as well as the interplay between that, the crit damage and the base damage.

That is why we see different numbers all the time for ascended gear damage. People ultimately end up calculating different things (max hit damage, compared to DPS) or end up making a mistake. It is certainly something I will try to calculate myself, but I will want to compare others calculations first to see what has been done.

However I can say with some certainty that since it is a combination of 4 stats increasing instead of just 1, it will almost certainly be higher than 5% for zerker gear.

This is one of my main complaints about ascended gear. It greatly favors power / crit builds over condition builds. Therefore, doing this comparison for condition damage is disingenuous. Crit damage / power builds do 12%+ more damage.

The sad thing about this post is that the “You don’t need ascended gear” group is going to be using this as “proof” that ascended gear only adds 5%.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So I’ve seen a lot of really bad math, outrageous claims and all sorts of speculation concerning ascended gear and how much it increases your damage. I decided enough is enough, it is time to put the rumors to rest and show the actual numbers.

The attached picture shows the calculations for FULL ascended gear. This includes 2x one handed weapons, full ascended armor, full ascended trinkets, and full infusions (13 offensive, 3 defensive). It also includes standard food buff, trait line contribution, and runes of the undead.

As you can see from the picture the % damage increase is almost precisely 5% under ideal circumstances.

It should be noted that precision and condition duration play absolutely 0 role in the final calculation because a standard necro can already cap bleeds on a target so they play no role in the damage. Toughness is included for the runes of the undead #6 bonus. Torment is placed at 3 stacks since this is the most a necro can currently apply under any circumstances.

When I get home tonight I will look up the numbers on scepter direct damage to add to the calculation, however that is very complicated and will almost certainly not have an effect on the final outcome. (it hits in the region of 100dps, so even with a 50% increase from ascended stats that would only be adding in an extra 50dps, changing the final result to 7%)

So please start spreading some truth around. At least for condition damage specs the increase is a flat 5%, not 15% or other huge numbers i’ve seen flying around.

Since you are considerating a build that only get returns in one stat, of course is like that, however with more stats is different and remember isnt only about damage.

The big thing about condition vs crit/power dmg is that when it comes to where ascended gear maybe a problem WvW condition dmg is the main means of dmg where crit/power dmg is not that big. Unless you want to go into pve where you can kill things a bit faster then others but i am not sure if that worth even looking into for most players.

Jski.6180:

The big thing about condition vs crit/power dmg is that when it comes to where ascended gear maybe a problem WvW condition dmg is the main means of dmg where crit/power dmg is not that big. Unless you want to go into pve where you can kill things a bit faster then others but i am not sure if that worth even looking into for most players.

The meta is condition but theres a lot of builds that gain from other stats as well in wvw. I agree that the real problem with ascended gear comes to wvw roaming; since group strategy and numbers changes even more the things in organized groups and zergs, plus pve content isnt turned around ascended gear, so as you said is a matter of time.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

At least for condition damage specs

Could you repeat this for a non-condition spec (warrior maybe?)…preferably with berserker stats?

It’s certainly something I can look into, but it gets much more complicated for direct damage due to the sheer number of factors to consider. Just to give you an idea you need to consider:

1. Power
2. Crit Chance
3. Crit Damage
4. Weapon damage
5. Armor of target

If you consider this complicated, then I’m not sure how serious I can take your calculation based on condition damage.

Hint: The increase for direct dmg doesn’t care about your targets armour.

Molch.2078:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

At least for condition damage specs

Could you repeat this for a non-condition spec (warrior maybe?)…preferably with berserker stats?

It’s certainly something I can look into, but it gets much more complicated for direct damage due to the sheer number of factors to consider. Just to give you an idea you need to consider:

1. Power
2. Crit Chance
3. Crit Damage
4. Weapon damage
5. Armor of target

If you consider this complicated, then I’m not sure how serious I can take your calculation based on condition damage.

Hint: The increase for direct dmg doesn’t care about your targets armour.

Actually hes right, because he need to take in consideration for the total damage, the condition damage. So if its true in direct damage you use a constant for armor, when you mix it for total damage, you cant do that, because the bigger the armor, the more condition damage contribute to total damage in opposition to direct damage.

Since almost everything have some condition damage, a complete analisis need to take a armor value that is considerated “typical” or use a scaling of “typical values” explaining how the fluctuation will be with changes of armor values.

Lucius.2140:

Jski.6180:

The big thing about condition vs crit/power dmg is that when it comes to where ascended gear maybe a problem WvW condition dmg is the main means of dmg where crit/power dmg is not that big. Unless you want to go into pve where you can kill things a bit faster then others but i am not sure if that worth even looking into for most players.

The meta is condition but theres a lot of builds that gain from other stats as well in wvw. I agree that the real problem with ascended gear comes to wvw roaming; since group strategy and numbers changes even more the things in organized groups and zergs, plus pve content isnt turned around ascended gear, so as you said is a matter of time.

The thing is WvW not realty made to be fair even max zerker going to kill may be one or 2 ppl randomly but that it and over all in WvW setting that means nothing at all. Condition is the big thing in wvw and wepon dmg means nothing for condition. So over all Ascended gear dose not mean much for WvW. In a way Ascended gear not a problem at all in this game its more on the lines of ppl who do not have it that thinks they need it and once they get it they find out fast how pointless it is.

Jski.6180:

Lucius.2140:

Jski.6180:

The big thing about condition vs crit/power dmg is that when it comes to where ascended gear maybe a problem WvW condition dmg is the main means of dmg where crit/power dmg is not that big. Unless you want to go into pve where you can kill things a bit faster then others but i am not sure if that worth even looking into for most players.

The meta is condition but theres a lot of builds that gain from other stats as well in wvw. I agree that the real problem with ascended gear comes to wvw roaming; since group strategy and numbers changes even more the things in organized groups and zergs, plus pve content isnt turned around ascended gear, so as you said is a matter of time.

The thing is WvW not realty made to be fair even max zerker going to kill may be one or 2 ppl randomly but that it and over all in WvW setting that means nothing at all. Condition is the big thing in wvw and wepon dmg means nothing for condition. So over all Ascended gear dose not mean much for WvW. In a way Ascended gear not a problem at all in this game its more on the lines of ppl who do not have it that thinks they need it and once they get it they find out fast how pointless it is.

Zerker isnt good for wvw. And actually the weapon damage depends, theres a lot of hibrid builds, even if direct damage is 40%of damage or less its still a lot.

I agree the game isnt balanced in 1vs1 and wvw is more about 10+ groups (actually giant zergs lol). However theres a good group of people that go to do roaming and they are the really affected with ascended gear (taking in consideration similar skills between opponents).

So, even if we not considerate roaming, the purpouse of the post is demostrate that ascended gear is not really much difference, however the example the OP gave use only one stat (condition damage), that make it less important.

Also considerate that we are compairing full exotic vs full ascended, is totally diferent one piece or 3 than all of them.

Lucius.2140:

Molch.2078:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

At least for condition damage specs

Could you repeat this for a non-condition spec (warrior maybe?)…preferably with berserker stats?

It’s certainly something I can look into, but it gets much more complicated for direct damage due to the sheer number of factors to consider. Just to give you an idea you need to consider:

1. Power
2. Crit Chance
3. Crit Damage
4. Weapon damage
5. Armor of target

If you consider this complicated, then I’m not sure how serious I can take your calculation based on condition damage.

Hint: The increase for direct dmg doesn’t care about your targets armour.

Actually hes right, because he need to take in consideration for the total damage, the condition damage. So if its true in direct damage you use a constant for armor, when you mix it for total damage, you cant do that, because the bigger the armor, the more condition damage contribute to total damage in opposition to direct damage.

Since almost everything have some condition damage, a complete analisis need to take a armor value that is considerated “typical” or use a scaling of “typical values” explaining how the fluctuation will be with changes of armor values.

You are right. But he hasn’t looked at direct dmg of conditionbuilds either.

Essence Snow.3194:

Kinda hard to proclaim something as “truth” when it takes a partial look at it. In your own words condition dmg and precision are taken out of the equation due to a necro being able to cap condi stacks? What about professions that don’t solo cap their conditions? Also torment can be added by the new superior sigil of torment as well as venom sharing from a thief.

What you are talking about is calculating the difference for very specific builds and group combinations. This can easily be done, it is just a few more lines of calculation, however there are billions of possible permutations at that level. The differences however are small. I took a higher level view and used general stats.

Also there are almost no circumstances where precision and condition duration actually matter. Solo PvE would be the only instance, and there isn’t anything challenging enough in the game for it to matter. In dungeons, WvW, Zergs, World Bosses, etc. your condition stacks will always be limited by the stack limit, not your crits or duration, regardless if you personally can reach the limit or not.

Since Anet has shown no indication at all of fixing condition damage then the only stat that matters is condition damage for group play.

Yes 5%. I have 5% more health, and 5% mitigation, and 5% more power. So they’re doing less damage to my bigger health pool. All while I’m beating them down doing more damage to them. It’s effectively a lot more then just 5%.

I run with a group of PvE guy’s in another game and and we make it admonitory that you have certain ships and configurations. There’s only a 3-5% stat difference. People whine all the time that we don’t let them in because they’re not maxed out on those last 3-5%. They claim it makes no difference! Then they whine more when they complete the first two parts of their complex and we come in and contest them and take the win in the last two parts because we just stomp them. 3-5% is effectively a lot bigger then you realize when all the stats stack up. This gives our group more $ per hour and them less $ per hour.

You keep thinking that 5% isn’t a significant difference. I like winning.

Molch.2078:

Lucius.2140:

Molch.2078:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

At least for condition damage specs

Could you repeat this for a non-condition spec (warrior maybe?)…preferably with berserker stats?

It’s certainly something I can look into, but it gets much more complicated for direct damage due to the sheer number of factors to consider. Just to give you an idea you need to consider:

1. Power
2. Crit Chance
3. Crit Damage
4. Weapon damage
5. Armor of target

If you consider this complicated, then I’m not sure how serious I can take your calculation based on condition damage.

Hint: The increase for direct dmg doesn’t care about your targets armour.

Actually hes right, because he need to take in consideration for the total damage, the condition damage. So if its true in direct damage you use a constant for armor, when you mix it for total damage, you cant do that, because the bigger the armor, the more condition damage contribute to total damage in opposition to direct damage.

Since almost everything have some condition damage, a complete analisis need to take a armor value that is considerated “typical” or use a scaling of “typical values” explaining how the fluctuation will be with changes of armor values.

You are right. But he hasn’t looked at direct dmg of conditionbuilds either.

you are correct, I have not done that. I will try to at some point. The contribution however is pretty pathetic. I don’t know if you’ve ever played a condition spec, but our direct damage component hit for 100-200 dmg, so even with a significant gain from ascended gear the end result is not changed much.

Also I only mentioned a few of the components that matter in calculating direct damage. Those are the “major” ones, but unlike condition damage each direct damage attack has a different multiplier for scaling, a different base damage, and different CD’s. For condition damage I only need to know the total stacks of conditions that are on a foe at all times; a number that after the initial ramp up is constant. For direct damage you need to know the skill rotation and the full information on each skill to be able to accurately calculate DPS.

Sure just using auto-attack is ok, but due to the 4x stat scaling, different abilities with different multipliers could be effected differently by the scaling.

Using the trivial case: assume an attack does 1k base damage, and scales 1:1 with power. Now assume a 50% crit chance with exotics and 100% crit dmg and a 10s CD and 2k overall power. we’ll ignore the weapon damage component for a moment.

1k + 2k from power = 3k dmg on a non crit
(1k + 2k from power)*2 = 6k dmg on a crit

50% crit chance means half our hits will be crits for an average damage of (3k+6k)/2 = 4.5k dmg. on a 10s CD this gives us 450dps.

Now lets assume ascended gear ups us to 2.2k power, 55% crit chance and 110% crit damage.

1k+2.2k = 3.2k
(1k+2.2k)*2.1=6.72k

3.2k*.45+6.72k*.55= ~5.14k with a 10s CD = 514DPS

That gives us an increase of 14%

Now assume a different ability with the same stats, but the base damage is 2k and it has an 8s CD….

2k+2k = 4k
(2k+2k)2= 8k
(4+8).5= 6k with an 8s CD gives us 750 DPS

now with ascended:

2k+2.2k=4.2k
(2k+2.2k)2.1=8820
4.2k.45+8820*.55 = 1890= 6741 dmg over 8s CD = 842DPS

This is a 12% increase….

That doesn’t even include the weapon damage component of the formula, or the condition damage those abilities apply, or the targets armor. So yes it is complicated, and depends heavily on build, traits, gear, rotation, etc.

Lucius.2140:

Jski.6180:

Lucius.2140:

Jski.6180:

The big thing about condition vs crit/power dmg is that when it comes to where ascended gear maybe a problem WvW condition dmg is the main means of dmg where crit/power dmg is not that big. Unless you want to go into pve where you can kill things a bit faster then others but i am not sure if that worth even looking into for most players.

The meta is condition but theres a lot of builds that gain from other stats as well in wvw. I agree that the real problem with ascended gear comes to wvw roaming; since group strategy and numbers changes even more the things in organized groups and zergs, plus pve content isnt turned around ascended gear, so as you said is a matter of time.

The thing is WvW not realty made to be fair even max zerker going to kill may be one or 2 ppl randomly but that it and over all in WvW setting that means nothing at all. Condition is the big thing in wvw and wepon dmg means nothing for condition. So over all Ascended gear dose not mean much for WvW. In a way Ascended gear not a problem at all in this game its more on the lines of ppl who do not have it that thinks they need it and once they get it they find out fast how pointless it is.

Zerker isnt good for wvw. And actually the weapon damage depends, theres a lot of hibrid builds, even if direct damage is 40%of damage or less its still a lot.

I agree the game isnt balanced in 1vs1 and wvw is more about 10+ groups (actually giant zergs lol). However theres a good group of people that go to do roaming and they are the really affected with ascended gear (taking in consideration similar skills between opponents).

So, even if we not considerate roaming, the purpouse of the post is demostrate that ascended gear is not really much difference, however the example the OP gave use only one stat (condition damage), that make it less important.

Also considerate that we are compairing full exotic vs full ascended, is totally diferent one piece or 3 than all of them.

As things stand though there are combos in exotic level gear and weapons that you cant find at the Ascended level. Its more of a question of how specialization your pushing your builds. In such things as wvw the gen. build tends to be the best there is an ascended set that fits that build but your going to miss out other effects that are missing from this gen. set. I am looking at combos such as giver’s (the weapons) Valkyrie and pure Carrion.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

This is a 12% increase….

That doesn’t even include the weapon damage component of the formula, or the condition damage those abilities apply, or the targets armor. So yes it is complicated, and depends heavily on build, traits, gear, rotation, etc.

Maybe you should change the title if it is 12%.

Not to mention weapon damage is a multiplier which you didn’t include yet.

Thread title is misleading, and should be “Ascended = +5% Bleed Damage.”

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Using the trivial case: assume an attack does 1k base damage, and scales 1:1 with power. Now assume a 50% crit chance with exotics and 100% crit dmg and a 10s CD and 2k overall power. we’ll ignore the weapon damage component for a moment.

1k + 2k from power = 3k dmg on a non crit
(1k + 2k from power)*2 = 6k dmg on a crit

50% crit chance means half our hits will be crits for an average damage of (3k+6k)/2 = 4.5k dmg. on a 10s CD this gives us 450dps.

Now lets assume ascended gear ups us to 2.2k power, 55% crit chance and 110% crit damage.

1k+2.2k = 3.2k
(1k+2.2k)*2.1=6.72k

3.2k*.45+6.72k*.55= ~5.14k with a 10s CD = 514DPS

That gives us an increase of 14%

Now assume a different ability with the same stats, but the base damage is 2k and it has an 8s CD….

2k+2k = 4k
(2k+2k)2= 8k
(4+8).5= 6k with an 8s CD gives us 750 DPS

now with ascended:

2k+2.2k=4.2k
(2k+2.2k)2.1=8820
4.2k.45+8820*.55 = 1890= 6741 dmg over 8s CD = 842DPS

This is a 12% increase….

That doesn’t even include the weapon damage component of the formula, or the condition damage those abilities apply, or the targets armor. So yes it is complicated, and depends heavily on build, traits, gear, rotation, etc.

I understand this is an example, however take in consideration that the difference you are putting between both calculations in this example are because you are using (base atack+ power), the correct formula is weapon damage* modifier* power.

Dont know if you are adding the crit damage of a normal crit (1.5) in that case it will be 2.5, however i agree making it with the condition damage and direct damage at same time is more complicated, and more build based.

Lucius.2140:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Using the trivial case: assume an attack does 1k base damage, and scales 1:1 with power. Now assume a 50% crit chance with exotics and 100% crit dmg and a 10s CD and 2k overall power. we’ll ignore the weapon damage component for a moment.

1k + 2k from power = 3k dmg on a non crit
(1k + 2k from power)*2 = 6k dmg on a crit

50% crit chance means half our hits will be crits for an average damage of (3k+6k)/2 = 4.5k dmg. on a 10s CD this gives us 450dps.

Now lets assume ascended gear ups us to 2.2k power, 55% crit chance and 110% crit damage.

1k+2.2k = 3.2k
(1k+2.2k)*2.1=6.72k

3.2k*.45+6.72k*.55= ~5.14k with a 10s CD = 514DPS

That gives us an increase of 14%

Now assume a different ability with the same stats, but the base damage is 2k and it has an 8s CD….

2k+2k = 4k
(2k+2k)2= 8k
(4+8).5= 6k with an 8s CD gives us 750 DPS

now with ascended:

2k+2.2k=4.2k
(2k+2.2k)2.1=8820
4.2k.45+8820*.55 = 1890= 6741 dmg over 8s CD = 842DPS

This is a 12% increase….

That doesn’t even include the weapon damage component of the formula, or the condition damage those abilities apply, or the targets armor. So yes it is complicated, and depends heavily on build, traits, gear, rotation, etc.

I understand this is an example, however take in consideration that the difference you are putting between both calculations in this example are because you are using (base atack+ power), the correct formula is weapon damage* modifier* power.

Dont know if you are adding the crit damage of a normal crit (1.5) in that case it will be 2.5, however i agree making it with the condition damage and direct damage at same time is more complicated, and more build based.

For some reason I was confused about how direct damage was calculated. It should be simpler to calculate if that is the correct formula. My 2 main characters are condition damage specs so I never bothered to learn the details of direct damage. Should make it simpler to calculate then. I will take a look at that at some point.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

For some reason I was confused about how direct damage was calculated. It should be simpler to calculate if that is the correct formula. My 2 main characters are condition damage specs so I never bothered to learn the details of direct damage. Should make it simpler to calculate then. I will take a look at that at some point.

Nice it helped, .

5% is still a significant boost.

Plenty of people choose +5% traits that only fire under specific conditions or +5% sigils.

McSlappy.1372:

Yes 5%. I have 5% more health, and 5% mitigation, and 5% more power. So they’re doing less damage to my bigger health pool. All while I’m beating them down doing more damage to them. It’s effectively a lot more then just 5%.

This is exactly the point you can not get across to these “It’s not a big deal” bandwagoners. They just do not comprehend it is a big deal, it isn’t just some small inconsequential increase.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So I’ve seen a lot of really bad math, outrageous claims and all sorts of speculation concerning ascended gear and how much it increases your damage. I decided enough is enough, it is time to put the rumors to rest and show the actual numbers.

The attached picture shows the calculations for FULL ascended gear. This includes 2x one handed weapons, full ascended armor, full ascended trinkets, and full infusions (13 offensive, 3 defensive). It also includes standard food buff, trait line contribution, and runes of the undead.

As you can see from the picture the % damage increase is almost precisely 5% under ideal circumstances.

It should be noted that precision and condition duration play absolutely 0 role in the final calculation because a standard necro can already cap bleeds on a target so they play no role in the damage. Toughness is included for the runes of the undead #6 bonus. Torment is placed at 3 stacks since this is the most a necro can currently apply under any circumstances.

When I get home tonight I will look up the numbers on scepter direct damage to add to the calculation, however that is very complicated and will almost certainly not have an effect on the final outcome. (it hits in the region of 100dps, so even with a 50% increase from ascended stats that would only be adding in an extra 50dps, changing the final result to 7%)

So please start spreading some truth around. At least for condition damage specs the increase is a flat 5%, not 15% or other huge numbers i’ve seen flying around.

1. You don’t show the equations on how you calculated damage, so it is very likely you are manipulating the numbers to show what you want.

2. You don’t even show weapon damage which is the biggest contributing factor to the direct damage increase.

3. You are giving out condition damage which is a linear scale for the most part and hardly matters in comparison to what Ascended does for direct damage builds.

4. The claims of currently available Ascended gear dealing 10% more direct damage (reading comprehension is hard, but this is damage not condition damage) are correct.

5. Stop trying to skew facts to cover bases.

Vanthian.9267:

1. You don’t show the equations on how you calculated damage, so it is very likely you are manipulating the numbers to show what you want.

2. You don’t even show weapon damage which is the biggest contributing factor to the direct damage increase.

3. You are giving out condition damage which is a linear scale for the most part and hardly matters in comparison to what Ascended does for direct damage builds.

4. The claims of currently available Ascended gear dealing 10% more direct damage (reading comprehension is hard, but this is damage not condition damage) are correct.

5. Stop trying to skew facts to cover bases.

1- You are making an assumption there.
2- Weapon Damage of Ascended is 5% more than Exotic, so mathematically it would still be 5% more.
3- People have been theory crafting based on perfect conditions that will likely not happen.
4- Again, theory crafting on perfect conditions that will likely not happen
5- The other side of the argument has been doing the same exact thing.

The weapons alone are a ~5% increase for direct damage builds. Weapon damage is a big deal for direct damage builds, so it has a much larger impact on said builds versus condition builds.

Could at least put in some effort before making a thread like this.

hybrid.5027:

The weapons alone are a ~5% increase for direct damage builds. Weapon damage is a big deal for direct damage builds, so it has a much larger impact on said builds versus condition builds.

Could at least put in some effort before making a thread like this.

The weapons itself do not add 5% damage to direct damage builds. Ascended weapons are 5% more damage than exotic, but that does not add 5% more damage, Weapon damage is X% of the total damage someone can put out, Ascended is adding 5% to that X%, which does not equal to 5% more damage overall.

eisberg.2379:

hybrid.5027:

The weapons alone are a ~5% increase for direct damage builds. Weapon damage is a big deal for direct damage builds, so it has a much larger impact on said builds versus condition builds.

Could at least put in some effort before making a thread like this.

The weapons itself do not add 5% damage to direct damage builds. Ascended weapons are 5% more damage than exotic, but that does not add 5% more damage, Weapon damage is X% of the total damage someone can put out, Ascended is adding 5% to that X%, which does not equal to 5% more damage overall.

The formulas aren’t that hard — direct damage includes a product of the derivative of 3 stats:

direct_dmg =~ (1-crit_rate)attack_power + (crit_rate(1.5+crit dmg)*attack_power)

Now — individual ascended pieces don’t raise each of those by 5%. But trinkets have a disproportionate boost (for crit dmg, 6% — 44% vs 38%), and increasing each part by 4% gives a total increase which is certainly larger than 4% (the left side — which may be much smaller anyway — decreases by 4%, and the right side increases by ~12% (1.04^3)).

[formula edited to include non-crit dmg]

Increasing DPS has a disproportionate effect for mobs which have a healing mechanic or a timer, because the mobs were presumably balanced at the previous values. Alternately, if you don’t go pure zerker — other attributes also have some synergies in fights (e.g. vitality + healing is much better than either alone).

I have ascended gear on a number of my chars; I don’t really mind that much of the content is easier now, but that statement is certainly true. Personally — I’m hoping that ANet finds ways to include challenge which doesn’t lock out players who aren’t interested in difficult content. (I.e. something like GW1’s Hard Mode for instances — though fractals comes close to this, and now I’m going through progression for fractals … time permitting.)

hybrid.5027:

The weapons alone are a ~5% increase for direct damage builds. Weapon damage is a big deal for direct damage builds, so it has a much larger impact on said builds versus condition builds.

Could at least put in some effort before making a thread like this.

This thread is about the increase in condition damage. Weapon damage has absolutely 0 impact on condition damage so i’m not sure why you are suggesting I include it. I’m unclear on what additional “effort” you think I should have put in.

And a 5% increase in my direct damage is not a 5% increase in my overall dps.

Looking at scepter auto-attack for necro:

skill multiplier = 0.35

Since condition spec gear contains no power I will have the base 916 power in both exotic and ascended. Weapon damage is 940-1060 for ascended and 895-1010 for exotic.

averages to: 1000 and 952.5 respectively. We’ll use 2600 as standard armor rating

916*.35*1000/2600= 123 dmg
916*.35*952.5/2600= 117.5 dmg

It has a .5 second cast but it is a chain and has a delay. the 3 attack chain takes 3 seconds to execute fully. so it adds 123 dps and 117.5dps respectively to the overall dps.

So my original calculation becomes 5.2% overall change if I account for weapon damage. I can add in the changes to crit damage if you REALLY want, but the change will be another 0.1% at most.

As i’ve stated before and will state again, this calculation is for condition damage, if you want zerker stat changes you’ll have to look elsewhere. But any statement that gives a blanket x% increase is just crap, because differences are huge between specs. Condition users get one of the lowest changes in %’s.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

This thread is about the increase in condition damage.

You might want to consider asking a moderator to alter your thread title then. You are likely to continue facing comments about the overall effect of ascended gear as long as the title seems to imply that is the subject.

Vanthian.9267:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So I’ve seen a lot of really bad math, outrageous claims and all sorts of speculation concerning ascended gear and how much it increases your damage. I decided enough is enough, it is time to put the rumors to rest and show the actual numbers.

The attached picture shows the calculations for FULL ascended gear. This includes 2x one handed weapons, full ascended armor, full ascended trinkets, and full infusions (13 offensive, 3 defensive). It also includes standard food buff, trait line contribution, and runes of the undead.

As you can see from the picture the % damage increase is almost precisely 5% under ideal circumstances.

It should be noted that precision and condition duration play absolutely 0 role in the final calculation because a standard necro can already cap bleeds on a target so they play no role in the damage. Toughness is included for the runes of the undead #6 bonus. Torment is placed at 3 stacks since this is the most a necro can currently apply under any circumstances.

When I get home tonight I will look up the numbers on scepter direct damage to add to the calculation, however that is very complicated and will almost certainly not have an effect on the final outcome. (it hits in the region of 100dps, so even with a 50% increase from ascended stats that would only be adding in an extra 50dps, changing the final result to 7%)

So please start spreading some truth around. At least for condition damage specs the increase is a flat 5%, not 15% or other huge numbers i’ve seen flying around.

1. You don’t show the equations on how you calculated damage, so it is very likely you are manipulating the numbers to show what you want.

2. You don’t even show weapon damage which is the biggest contributing factor to the direct damage increase.

3. You are giving out condition damage which is a linear scale for the most part and hardly matters in comparison to what Ascended does for direct damage builds.

4. The claims of currently available Ascended gear dealing 10% more direct damage (reading comprehension is hard, but this is damage not condition damage) are correct.

5. Stop trying to skew facts to cover bases.

1. the calculations are just basic arithmetic, you can check it if you like.

Stat values are taken from:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item_nomenclature

Condition damage formulas are taken from:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

2. See my above post to see how weapon damage makes minimal impact with full math shown for your convenience.

3. I fail to see how it “hardly matters”. If the scaling is different between builds then that is an imbalance Anet needs to be made aware of. One build shouldn’t become disproportionately stronger by getting better gear. If the damage increase isn’t shared then additional scaling should be introduced to bring them to the same level. This is a major flaw in the games design that will hopefully be fixed.

4. Those claims may or may not be correct. All i’ve seen are vague references and blanket statements up to this point. Nothing I have seen has even mentioned condition damage, which is why I made this thread.

5. Please point out any mistakes I have made as if they are incorrect it was not on purpose and I would like to correct it as soon as possible.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

hybrid.5027:

The weapons alone are a ~5% increase for direct damage builds. Weapon damage is a big deal for direct damage builds, so it has a much larger impact on said builds versus condition builds.

Could at least put in some effort before making a thread like this.

This thread is about the increase in condition damage. Weapon damage has absolutely 0 impact on condition damage so i’m not sure why you are suggesting I include it. I’m unclear on what additional “effort” you think I should have put in.

And a 5% increase in my direct damage is not a 5% increase in my overall dps.

Looking at scepter auto-attack for necro:

skill multiplier = 0.35

Since condition spec gear contains no power I will have the base 916 power in both exotic and ascended. Weapon damage is 940-1060 for ascended and 895-1010 for exotic.

averages to: 1000 and 952.5 respectively. We’ll use 2600 as standard armor rating

916*.35*1000/2600= 123 dmg
916*.35*952.5/2600= 117.5 dmg

It has a .5 second cast but it is a chain and has a delay. the 3 attack chain takes 3 seconds to execute fully. so it adds 123 dps and 117.5dps respectively to the overall dps.

So my original calculation becomes 5.2% overall change if I account for weapon damage. I can add in the changes to crit damage if you REALLY want, but the change will be another 0.1% at most.

As i’ve stated before and will state again, this calculation is for condition damage, if you want zerker stat changes you’ll have to look elsewhere. But any statement that gives a blanket x% increase is just crap, because differences are huge between specs. Condition users get one of the lowest changes in %’s.

Even if it only increases your DPS by 5%, it also increases your durability — making it easier to spend all your time up and doing damage. Any assertion that ascended gear doesn’t make the game easier due to such synergies is … deliberately obtuse.

And at this point, for PvE, crit dmg clearly important, and the benefit there from ascended is likely > 10%. I’m happy to group with one person doing condition damage — but the rest should be doing direct damage or DPS + support. (I’m more the latter, as I play guard and ele.)

Okay lets do some math: (prepare for very long wall of text, if someone can check my numbers I’d appreciate it. Also the numbers for ascended armor can easily be wrong, so take those results with a grain of salt)

I’m going to do some number crunching on 4 scenarios (Full ascended, Ascended w/ exotic armor, Full Exotic, Full Rare) with 4 cases (full zerker, full knights, full soldiers, full dire). The cases were chosen to show max power/precision/crit dam, having both power/precision without crit dam, max power, no extra power/precision/crit dam. This means that case 4 will do low damage inherently as I’m not going to include condition damage (and even if I did the traits aren’t spec’ed for conditions).

Stipulations: I am going to do the math with a warrior, but not using any traits to give extra damage. I am going 30/10/0/0/30 (+300 power, +100 precision, +30% crit dam). A ranger, ele, mesmer, or thief can actually do more damage (just with trait line stat boosts) because they have power/precision/crit damage spread out over only 2 trait lines, so they can max all 3. I am also using a great sword for weapon damage (this means that for ascended I am loosing 1 sigil, for exotic I am losing 1 main stat, 1 crit dam, and 1 sigil, and for rare I am losing 1 minor stat and 1 sigil). The “biggest” difference may be from the 1% crit damage for exotic, but meh. I will not be including runes into the calculation, but I will consider food/nourishments/sigils. I will choose power/precision based on which gives a bigger dps boost.

Okay here are the numbers I’m using (I wish I could just copy/paste a table). Also I got the ascended armor stats from online, so I have no clue if they are right, and no crit dam was listed, so I’m going to assume that they are the same as exotic.

Ascended
<item> < major > <minor> <crit dam>
Amulet 126 85 9
Ring 103 68 8
accessories 91 60 7
back 56 35 5
2hand 188 134 10

chest 108 77 5
legs 72 51 3
head 48 34 2
shoulder 36 26 2
gloves 36 26 2
boots 36 26 2

Weapon Strength: 1139.5

6 Offensive infusion slots

2 Defensive infusion slots (no clue what armor adds so I’m ignoring them)
So we have +30 power/precision to play around with later on
—————————

Exotic
<item> < major > <minor> <crit dam>
Amulet 90 64 5
Ring 67 48 3
accessories 56 40 3
back 22 16 1
2hand 179 128 9

chest 101 72 5
legs 67 48 3
head 45 32 2
shoulder 34 24 2
gloves 34 24 2
boots 34 24 2

Jewels 25 15 3

Weapon Strength: 1047.5

Rare
<item> < major > <minor> <crit dam>
Amulet 79 56 4
Ring 59 42 3
accessories 49 35 3
back 20 14 1
2hand 79 56 8

chest 49 64 5
legs 59 42 3
head 40 28 2
shoulder 30 21 2
gloves 30 21 2
boots 30 21 2

Jewels 25 15 3
(yes I’m being lazy and using exotic jewels here)

Weapon Strength: 927.5

If you are going to check my math, don’t forget to count rings and accessories twice, and jewels six times. And remember I’m not going to bother with runes, because of the variation you can have (if I recall, going all ruby can give you the best consistent dps, but I could be wrong there). I know some of the items don’t exist yet (like an ascended knights back item, but I’m using the stats as if it did exist to make my life easy).
—————————————-

Time for some totals from gear only

Full ascended Totals: 1094 (main), 750 (minor), 70% (crit dam)
Asc. w/ Exotic armor: 1073 (main), 734 (minor), 70% (crit dam)
Full Exotic Totals: 1002 (main), 698 (minor), 61% (crit dam)
Full Rare Totals: 782 (main), 567 (minor), 59% (crit dam)

And remember we can add +30 power or precision from infusions to the first 2

For all cases
Base Attribute: 916
Traits: +300 power, +100 precision, +30% crit damage

Variables
For Sigils
I’m going to be using either Sigil of Accuracy (5% crit chance) or Sigil of Force (5% damage), depending which increases the dps of each build more, I’ll note which one I use in each case.

For nourishment
Superior Sharpening Stone (Gain power equal to 6% of your toughness & Gain power equal to 4% of your vitality) or
Toxic Sharpening Stone (100 Power) or
Potent Master Maintenance Oil (Gain precision equal to 6% of your toughness & Gain precision equal to 4% of your vitality) or
Toxic Maintenance Oil (100 Precision). Depending which gives the highest bonus

For food
Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup (100 Precision & +10% Critical damage) or
Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup (100 Power & +10% Critical damage)Again, whatever gives the highest bonuses.
——————————

Okay we can do something besides addition now. To get our damage:

Damage done = (Weapon Strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage + 0.5) )
Critical Chance = round down ( (precision -822) / 21)

For ease of calculations:
Weapon Strength = (max-min)/2+min [to get an average]
Skill coefficient = 1
Target’s Armor = 1836 (the min toughness a scholar can have in exotic armor)
———————————————-

Scenario 1 (Full ascended)
Case 1: Full Zerk (Sigil = accuracy , nourish= Toxic Maintenance Oil , food= Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup, the dps difference between full precision and full power is 0.156 in powers favor, but if you threw ruby jewels into the armor then precision would win over by a small amount. Also 30 power from infusions (if you go back and look at infusions/sigils/nourishments/food combos you may be able to find a better one, but this is taking way longer than I expected as it is).
Toughness=916
Vit=916
Power: 231030 = 2340
Base Damage: 1452.30
Precision: 1766 + 200 = 1966
Critical Chance: 54% + 5% = 59%
Critical Damage: +100% +10% = 110%

Average Damage = 2823.28

Case 2: Full Knights (Sigil = Force , nourish=Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup, here full power wins by a lot ~121 dps (going full ruby drops the increase to ~73). Also +30 power from infusions.
Toughness=2010
Vit=916
Power: 1966 +100 +157.24 +30 = 2253.24
Base Damage: 1398.45*1.05 = 1468.37
Precision: 1766
Critical Chance: 44%
Critical Damage: +30% +10 = 40%

Average Damage = 2049.85

Case 3: Full Soldiers (Sigil = Force, nourish=Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup, here full power wins by a bit ~46 dps (going full ruby drops the increase to ~20). Again 30 power from infusions.
Toughness=1666
Vit=1666
Power: 2310100+166.6+30= 2606.6
Base Damage: 1617.77*1.05 = 1698.66
Precision: 1016
Critical Chance: 9
Critical Damage: 30% + 10 = 40 %

Average Damage = 1836.25

Case 4: Full Dire (Sigil = Force, nourish=Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup, here full power wins by a lot ~113 dps (going full ruby drops the increase to ~99).
Toughness=1666
Vit=1666
Power:1216 +100 + 166.6 +30 = 1512.6
Base Damage: 938.78*1.05 = 985.72
Precision: 1016
Critical Chance: 9:
Critical Damage: 30% +10 = 40%

Average Damage = 1065.57

Scenario 2 (Ascended w/ Exotic armor)

Case 1: Full Zerker (Sigil = Force, nourish=Toxic Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup, here full power wins by a lot ~102 dps). And +30 power from infusions.

Toughness=916
Vit=916
Power: 2289+ 200 +30 = 2519
Base Damage: 1563.40*1.05 = 1641.57
Precision: 1750
Critical Chance: 44
Critical Damage: 30 + 10 = 40 %

Average Damage = 2725

Case 2: Full Knights (Sigil = Force, nourish=Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup). And +30 power from infusions.

Toughness=1989
Vit=916
Power: 1950+100+155.98+30= 2235.98
Base Damage: 1387.74*1.05 = 1457.13
Precision: 1750
Critical Chance: 44
Critical Damage: 30 +10 = 40

Average Damage = 2034.16

Case 3: Full Soldiers (Sigil = Force, nourish=Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup.) Again 30 power from infusions.

Toughness=1650
Vit=1650
Power: 2289 + 100 + 165 +30 = 2584
Base Damage: 1603.74*1.05 = 1683.93
Precision: 1016
Critical Chance: 9
Critical Damage: 40

Average Damage = 1820.33

Case 4: Full Dire (Sigil = Force, nourish=Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup.) Again 30 power from infusions.
Toughness=1650
Vit=1650
Power: 1216 + 100+ 165 +30 = 1511
Base Damage: 937.79*1.05 = 984.68
Precision: 1016
Critical Chance: 9
Critical Damage: 30 +10 = 40

Average Damage = 1064.44
——————————————-

Scenario 3 (Full Exotic) (Sigil = Force, nourish=Toxic Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup, here full power wins by a bit ~13.7 dps, if you had jewels in the armor precision would win over by ~10 dps).
Case 1: Full Zerker
Toughness=916
Vit=916
Power: 2218+100+100= 2418
Base Damage: 1379.55*1.05 = 1448.53
Precision: 1714
Critical Chance: 42
Critical Damage: 91 +10 = 101

Average Damage = 2306.35

Case 2: Full Knights (Sigil = Force, nourish= Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup).
Toughness=1918
Vit=916
Power: 1914 + 100 151.72 = 2165.72
Base Damage: 1235.62*1.05 = 1297.40
Precision: 1714
Critical Chance: 42
Critical Damage: 3010= 40

Average Damage = 1787.81

Case 3: Full Soldiers (Sigil = Force, nourish= Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup).
Toughness=1614
Vit=1614
Power: 2218 +100 +161.4 = 2479.4
Base Damage: 1414.58*1.05 = 1485.31
Precision: 1016
Critical Chance: 9
Critical Damage: 30 +10 = 40

Average Damage = 1605.62

Case 4: Full Dire (Sigil = Force, nourish= Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup).
Toughness=1614
Vit=1614
Power: 1216+100+161.4 = 1477.4
Base Damage: 842.91 *1.05 = 885.05
Precision: 1016
Critical Chance: 9
Critical Damage: 30 +10 = 40

Average Damage = 956.74
——————————————-

Scenario 4 (Full Rare)
Case 1: Full Zerker (Sigil = Force, nourish=Toxic Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup, here full power wins by a bit ~30 dps, if you had jewels in the armor precision would win over by ~4 dps).
Toughness=916
Vit=916
Power: 1998 + 100 +100 = 2198
Base Damage: 1110.37*1.05 = 1165.89
Precision: 1583
Critical Chance: 36
Critical Damage: 89 +10 = 99

Average Damage = 1791.28

Case 2: Full Knights (Sigil = Force, nourish=Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup).
Toughness=1548
Vit=916
Power: 1783 + 100 +129.52 = 2012.52
Base Damage: 1016.67 * 1.05 = 1067.51
Precision: 1583
Critical Chance: 36
Critical Damage: 40

Average Damage = 1413.38

Case 3: Full Soldiers (Sigil = Force, nourish=Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup).
Toughness=1483
Vit=1483
Power: 1998 + 100 148.3 = 2246.3
Base Damage: 1134.77*1.05 = 1191.51
Precision: 1016
Critical Chance: 9
Critical Damage: 3010= 40

Average Damage = 1288.02

Case 4: Full Dire (Sigil = Force, nourish=Superior Sharpening Stone, food=Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup).
Toughness=1483
Vit=1483
Power: 1216 + 100 148.3 = 1464.3
Base Damage: 739.73 * 1.05 = 776.71
Precision: 1016
Critical Chance: 9
Critical Damage: 3010= 40

Average Damage = 839.63
——————————————-

Final Results Avg Damage

Full Ascended
Case 1 (full zerker) 2823.28
Case 2 (full knights) 2049.86
Case 3 (full soldiers) 1836.25
Case 4 (full dire) 1065.57

Ascended w/ Exotic Armor
Case 1 (full zerker) 2725
Case 2 (full knights) 2034.16
Case 3 (full soldiers) 1820.33
Case 4 (full dire) 1064.44

Exotic Armor
Case 1 (full zerker) 2241.68
Case 2 (full knights) 1787.81
Case 3 (full soldiers) 1605.62
Case 4 (full dire) 956.74

Rare Armor
Case 1 (full zerker) 1791.28
Case 2 (full knights) 1413.38
Case 3 (full soldiers) 1288.02
Case 4 (full dire) 839.63
—-—————————————————————

Summary/ % gain’s

Raw numbers
<Zerk> <Knight> <Soldier> <Dire>
Full Ascended 2823.28 2049.86 1836.25 1065.57
Asc w/ Exotics 2725.00 2034.16 1820.33 1064.44
Full Exotics 2367.18 1787.81 1605.62 956.74
Full Rares 1791.28 1413.38 1288.02 839.63

%‘s Compared to Dire (shows the direct damage gain over condition users) It will be greater considering condition users wouldn’t be using +power/precision sigils/food/nourishments/etc.
<Zerk> <Knight> <Soldier> <Dire>
Full Ascended x2.65 x1.92 x1.72 x1
Asc w/ Exotics x2.56 x1.91 x1.71 x1
Full Exotics x2.47 x1.87 x1.68 x1
Full Rares x2.13 x1.68 x1.53 x1

%’s Compared to rares
<Zerk> <Knight> <Soldier> <Dire>
Full Ascended x1.57 x1.45 x1.43 x1.27
Asc w/ Exotics x1.52 x1.43 x1.41 x1.27
Full Exotics x1.32 x1.26 x1.25 x1.14
Full Rares x1 x1 x1 x1

%’s Comparing Exotic to rares, and both ascended to exotics (this may be the one everyone cares about)
<Zerk> <Knight> <Soldier> <Dire>
Full Ascended x1.19 x1.15 x1.14 x1.113
Asc w/ Exotics x1.15 x1.14 x1.13 x1.112
Full Exotics x1 x1 x1 x1

Full Exotics x1.32 x1.26 x1.25 x1.14
Full Rares x1 x1 x1 x1

Please check my math (or do your own to compare), as I’ve been staring at this for far to long, and I could have messed something up along the way.

So, for full zerker gear going from rares to exotics gives you a ~30% increase in direct damage to ~14% increase in direct damage for dire gear (again that increase in direct damage would be less for a “real” case, but then again you’ll also gain damage from conditions).

Going from exotics to ascended trinkets and weapon gives you a ~15% increase for zerker or a ~13% increase for soldier.

So, I do need to tell you OP, that the increase is more than 5% (especially since you get just a base 5% increase from weapon damage alone). It’s just that for other builds (ones that focus on none main attributes) only see a ~7% increase in any secondary stats (full ascended vs. full exotics) or ~5.4% increase in secondary stats (ascended w/ exotic armor).

Also to my knowledge condition damage only goes by whole numbers (I don’t believe it rounds up), so that means if you get less than a +20 condition damage from something, you end up actually doing 0 extra damage per bleed.

Also these numbers will change a lot, if you can’t crit your target, and you guys can find those numbers labeled as “base damage” in my math summaries (but for ascended w/ exotic armor vs. full exotic its ~13% increase in damage for soldiers gear).

TLDR: OP, you are wrong (while secondary attribute will only see a ~7% increase in stats), for direct damage builds, you can gain up to a ~15% increase in damage.

Oh and, I am making no assertions about getting extra defense/hp/survivability which let you stay in the fight longer. Or looing at the survivability between the four different cases I showed. I was just looking at basic direct damage (again with no traits and the stipulations that I used).

Am I reading this correct? Full exotic vs full ascended berserkers is a 19% difference after armor is released? That’s…sickening.

eisberg.2379:

2- Weapon Damage of Ascended is 5% more than Exotic, so mathematically it would still be 5% more.

More what? I will assume damage and if it is, then in that case….

Wow just no…. If you are looking at the whole thing, as the op stated, then this is grossly false. The weapon damage is indeed 5% higher but when grouped together with stats and the current armor values for the game the damage increase is 10%.

You and the nah sayers have been proven wrong countless times. You are not fooling anyone who can do simple multiplication.

In case you don’t know the damage formula (why would you even step into this argument if you don’t…)

Damage done = (Weapon Strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Now if you look at a full exotic thief vs a full ascended thief hitting a cloth target with backstab with max weapon damage, the 2.4 coefficient, 20 might stacks you will get from signets, full bloodlust stack from sigil, with full berserker gear, and ruby orbs as upgrades on everything with the 25/30/0/0/15 build.

Exotic:
Weapon Damage: 984, Power: 3,239, Skill Coefficient: 2.4, Critical Damage: 104%

Ascended:
Weapon Damage: 1,030, Power: 3,309, Skill Coefficient: 2.4, Critical Damage: 112%

Cloth base armor: 1,836

So it follows the damage of a critical hit is:

Exotic: Critical~10,582
Ascended: Critical~11,672

You are going from Exotic to Ascended so the fraction we look at is…

11,672/10,582~=1.103 which means…… it is a 10.3% damage increase.

You have been prove wrong. As stated before, conditions are mostly linear so of course ascended will not have as much of a great affect as it will for direct damage but if you look at the increase from this direct damage plus condition damage it is quite the increase.

EDIT: To make sure you fully understand this post, this is for currently available Ascended gear versus exotic. There is no fluff guessing about what Ascended armor will be nor hyper inflated numbers with traits that deal +% damage. It would change anything if you choose to add in the +% damage traits.

I’m sorry, if your games marketing strategy is “You can be 95% the hero others are”, you are doing something wrong.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

1. the calculations are just basic arithmetic, you can check it if you like.

I have and so have many others, and you are wrong.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

2. See my above post to see how weapon damage makes minimal impact with full math shown for your convenience.

The weapon damage itself is 5% higher from Exotic to Ascended, so it is therefore a direct 5% increase to overall damage. That is anything but minimal.

No business would stand for a 5% loss in profit. Just encase you don’t’ understand the correlation of that statement to the situation at hand… no hard core pver will tolerate a 5% loss in damage. It matters.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

3. I fail to see how it “hardly matters”. If the scaling is different between builds then that is an imbalance Anet needs to be made aware of. One build shouldn’t become disproportionately stronger by getting better gear. If the damage increase isn’t shared then additional scaling should be introduced to bring them to the same level. This is a major flaw in the games design that will hopefully be fixed.

As this has been already stated, having less than a 20 condition damage gain would result in a 0 damage increase. The fact that your condition damage on any ascended weapon is barely raised by (exotic major condition is 179, ascended major is 188) 9 points, leads to the fact that condition damage almost stays the same. Even when you add in all the additions of all the currently available ascended gear (Exotic Full condition damage with condition build: 1397 without food or buffs, Ascended full condition damage with condition build: 1493 without food or buffs) is only a difference of 96 condition damage. Or… 6.87%. So bleeds with this set up hit for 112 while the ascended will hit for 117.

So yes, 5 damage per second is very minimal in comparison to 10% of 10,000.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

4. Those claims may or may not be correct. All i’ve seen are vague references and blanket statements up to this point. Nothing I have seen has even mentioned condition damage, which is why I made this thread.

I made a very detailed thread regarding the topic on the increase for direct damage and people who wished this not to be true derailed the topic and had it closed.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Exotic-Vs-Currently-Available-Ascended/first

Check it if you wish.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

5. Please point out any mistakes I have made as if they are incorrect it was not on purpose and I would like to correct it as soon as possible.

Please see the previous post in conjunction with this.