Guild Wars 2

Wahoo and hello!

I’ve been bothering myself about ascended gear and it’s effectivity lately. Currently, the only ascended gear you really want are trinkets (because of the huge stat difference) and weapons.

But the weapons are only so great because their weapon strength increases by 5% from exotic to ascended, which is useless for anyone else but power focused players.

Noone who is sane and not dirty rich would ever bother with an ascended armor or even weapons as a healer or condi profession. It just doesn’t matter and it costs too much.

So what’s the solution to this problem? Why would we want ascended armor? Why would anyone but power professions want ascended weapons? I suggest the following:

Weapons

• Ascended weapons should no longer grant 5% bonus weapon damage.
• They instead should have an additional note to them -> +5% (half for 1-handed weapons) damage and condition damage (not the stat, as a modifier like the 6th bonus of the zerker rune or GotL).
• The 5% increased stat bonus can still stay.

Armors

• Ascended armors now additionaly have a note to them -> +X% (according to armor piece) healing effectivity and -X% (according to armor piece) incoming damage and condition damage.
• Each piece has a different % number, like this: chest > leggins > helmet > shoulders = gloves = boots.
• A total ascended armor should grant 5% more healing and reduces every incoming damage by 5%.

With these changes, nothing would become imbalanced, but there would be a reason for specific professions and roles in every game mode to gear for ascended stuff. A Druid may want an ascended armor asap, a DD wants the weapons to be ready asap (even condis!), and tanks may want to have both.

What do you guys think? Don’t you think something has to change too???

Greez!
- Xyonon

Berserker need asc for better dps. Play berserker and all problems you seem to see are solved.

If so then also revert the critical dmg nerf from the past that decreased the power dmg builds by atleast 10%.

This nerf was done because of the ascended armor/weapons/trinkets.

(and lets not forget that condi’s does more besides dmg, and there are condi’s that even decreases power dmg, there is NO condi that decreases condi dmg.. but this is a whole other point)

So in short: no

Sorry but this make no sense. We don’t want condition and direct damage to be clone of each other. They both work differently and that’s fine.

I agree that they mustn’t become clones. But the matter here is something completly different – it’s about who gets what bonuses from ascended gear. It’s not that it would be such a big deal but it’s simply not fair the way it is.

Xyonon.3987:

I agree that they mustn’t become clones. But the matter here is something completly different – it’s about who gets what bonuses from ascended gear. It’s not that it would be such a big deal but it’s simply not fair the way it is.

How it’s not fair? With that logic, it’s not fair that condition bypass toughness. It’s not fair that direct damage need 3 stats, while condition only need 1. It’s not fair that condition damage can be removed, but there is not such a thing for direct damage. It’s not faire that protection reduce direct damage by 33%, but Resistance stop 100% of condition.

Each of those individual situation are not fair. They advantage one type of damage over the other. But when you take all of them together, they are suppose to balance each other. Only the end result count. If you argument was, condition damage build are decent in exotic compare to direct damage in exotic, but that when in ascended, direct damage become more powerful, then yes you would have a point. But it’s not the case.

Why do people always want to nerf/delete stuff?
You should work for Arenanet.

I farmed like hell to get everything purple. As a reward, i get more stats. Welcome to the world of mmorpgs.

I think the argument of Xyonon doesn’t have NOTHING to do with “power vs condi” as you seem to be taking it, but with “Ascended advantage is not equally valuable for all builds”, wich is not the same.

I really don’t know if what OP says is true (Does really “weapon strenght” not affect condi dps?), but I’m capable of see that reducing this thread to a lame “Power vs Condi” argument is useless and wrong.

Pretty much all posts do not address OP’s point which basically is that Condi/Heal builds do not benefit as much from “ascended quality” weapons than power builds and therefore have less motivation to go for them.

So we should first discuss, whether this is true or to what degree and then whether this should be changed and then/if how.

Edit: I bought a level 23 and a level 63 Fine Hearty Soft Wood Scepter for my Necromancer and compared the values for condition damage in the tool tip. They are identical. Though we have to factor in that Condi builds also add a bit of direct damage to overall DPS.

small question… you get 5% added dmg and 5% added stats and 5% added armor

• so speccing for power: 1.05*1.05 times added dmg
• so speccing for toughness 1.05+1.05 times added defence
• so speccing for healing 1.05 times added healing….
• so speccing for conditions…. well look into formulae before answering this… ot will never be 1.05 mostly because to forumla is a base value and a modifier is used before actual condition dmg reducing the effect of condition dmg BUT we got condition duration whcih did make a huge difference for DOT… problem though: the foods were nerfed and in the end there actually was 0 difference, actualy on 4 stat armors the condition dmg total actually went down, lowering the damage / tick… so you gained a huge amount of DOT without using food through introduced DURATION… but with food the dmg was just a hoax… and in the end values were lower, luckily we use Sinister/Viper’s (or Rampager or Carrion) to offset this in PvE, but tbh these builds also depend quite heaily on DOT not DPS (auto attacks tend to scale -very- bad)

You’re right….. and tooltips are still quite bad…

Stronger:
DPS Warrior
DPS Ele
DPS Thief
DPS Mesmer
DPS Revenant (mule)
DPS Engineer (mule)

bit stronger
DPS/Heal Ele
DPS/Heal Ranger
DPS/Heal Necro
DPS/Heal Guardian
DPS/Heal Warrior

about same
Bunker/Heal guardian

bit stronger
DPS/Condi Warrior
DPS/Condi Necro
DPS/Condi Guardian
DPS/Condi Mesmer
DPS/Condi Ranger
DPS/Condi Thief

about the same
Bunker/Condi Necro

my experience on my 19 characters…

Ardid.7203:

I think the argument of Xyonon doesn’t have NOTHING to do with “power vs condi” as you seem to be taking it, but with “Ascended advantage is not equally valuable for all builds”, wich is not the same.

I really don’t know if what OP says is true (Does really “weapon strenght” not affect condi dps?), but I’m capable of see that reducing this thread to a lame “Power vs Condi” argument is useless and wrong.

Exactly this. It’s about the uneven adventage of ascended gear. And yes, weapon strength does not affect condi at all. Oh, and thank you for your words.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

small question… you get 5% added dmg and 5% added stats and 5% added armor

• so speccing for power: 1.05*1.05 times added dmg
• so speccing for toughness 1.05+1.05 times added defence
• so speccing for healing 1.05 times added healing….
• so speccing for conditions…. well look into formulae before answering this… ot will never be 1.05 mostly because to forumla is a base value and a modifier is used before actual condition dmg reducing the effect of condition dmg BUT we got condition duration whcih did make a huge difference for DOT… problem though: the foods were nerfed and in the end there actually was 0 difference, actualy on 4 stat armors the condition dmg total actually went down, lowering the damage / tick… so you gained a huge amount of DOT without using food through introduced DURATION… but with food the dmg was just a hoax… and in the end values were lower, luckily we use Sinister/Viper’s (or Rampager or Carrion) to offset this in PvE, but tbh these builds also depend quite heaily on DOT not DPS (auto attacks tend to scale -very- bad)

5% damage modifier / weapon strength means EXACTLY 5% more damage with power attacks. 5% higher stats on the other hand is not the same, since upgrading your weapon from exotic to ascended, your total stats won’t rise by 5%, ontly the stats of your weapon. So like from 100 power to 105, wich makes your total stats rise from 3000 to 3005 → in that case only +0.16666% more damage.

5% reduced damage means EXACTLY 5% lesser incoming damage. Yet having 5% higher armor on your armor pieces does not increase your total armor by 5%. The same thing as above.

5% increased outgoing damage with conditions means EXACTLY 5% more damage. I’m not talking about the stat “condition damage” here. And it’s also irellevant how much condition duration you have. They are all multipliers, it doesn’t matter when you apply them – if you increase any of them by 5%, the result increases by 5% aswell.

Assuming 1500 condition damage total in exotic gear the upgrade of an exotic 2h weapon (with main stat condition damage) to ascended quality increases the total condition damage by 251 – 231 = 20 = 1.333…%

I’ve verified (see above) that weapon strength does not affect condition damage.

Combat summary after a PvP match shows that the direct damage of my Condi Reaper is less than 20% of the condition damage.

So, thank you OP for the heads up. I will never upgrade to ascended weapons on my Condi builds/characters, unless I actually want the infusion slots.

So my investment on viper armor for my engie was a really really bad deal… and a lot of raid groups looking for “Viper ascended condi build” are plainly wrong.

Ardid.7203:

So my investment on viper armor for my engie was a really really bad deal… and a lot of raid groups looking for “Viper ascended condi build” are plainly wrong.

I wouldn’t worry about it, 2 dimensional players think in terms of ‘min maxing’ they don’t revile in diversity of build, they simply want to make life as easy as possible – ie duller and most likely a learned behaviour from other mmorpg.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ardid.7203:

So my investment on viper armor for my engie was a really really bad deal… and a lot of raid groups looking for “Viper ascended condi build” are plainly wrong.

I wouldn’t worry about it, 2 dimensional players think in terms of ‘min maxing’ they don’t revile in diversity of build, they simply want to make life as easy as possible – ie duller and most likely a learned behaviour from other mmorpg.

Hey, that saves me a boat load of time and effort. Considering I was thinking about getting six sets of ascended armor (one for each class type with berserker & vipers). I take it the same thing could go with healing stats from exotic to acceded? Basically investing in the ascended trinkets/jewelry and weapons for condi or healing is slightly better overall?

You don’t realize the implications of adding +x% healing or -x% damage. That would make options like Knights way too powerful or making getting a healing power of 3,000 (which is way too much) not only possible but normally recognizable.

Damage is one thing but balancing survival is a whole new can of worms. I can already think of a number of builds I’ve made that would just never, ever die.

OP still have to prove that ascended is more worth it in term of direct damage, then condition, healing or surviability. He just talk about raw stats of ascended, but not the end result.

He need to show that. Direct damage exotic vs ascended equal a certain percentage increased in damage and do the same thing with surviability or condition and see what is the result.

Not sure I understand the problem, nor the solution. Power builds benefit from weapons, everything else only from the base stats? OK, that’s not really fair, but it’s a problem? I wouldn’t go that far.

Even if it is, adding heal and condition increases only benefits heals and condition builds. So what about tank builds or evades or … I mean, the list doesn’t end. You can’t cater to EVERY kind of build so no solution is fair. Even if you go back and load Ascended with more base stats and remove the weapon damage increase, it’s still not fair if I want to run a COND, power, heal because that combo doesn’t exist.

There is more of an issue with infusions than there is with Ascended gear. A huge opportunity is lost there to allow meaningful fine tuning to a build.

nicknamenick.2437:

If so then also revert the critical dmg nerf from the past that decreased the power dmg builds by atleast 10%.

This nerf was done because of the ascended armor/weapons/trinkets.

It really wasn’t. The nerf was done because there wasn’t a uniform distribution of crit damage across different stat pieces, and this lead to an overall greater performance than intended. Trust me, the zerker meta used to be quite a bit more severe than it is now.

As for the OP, I suppose the biggest issue I have is that I see this completely in reverse. It isn’t unfair to other builds because power builds get a 5% increase via weapon strength with ascended. It is unfair to power builds because they have to get ascended to get their full potential. It is an extra demand necessary for the build.

However I digress: the thing with healing builds, condition builds, tank builds etc. is that they still do power damage. Quite a bit, actually. While power damage may not be the main component of their role or what they do, the contribution of ascended weaponry doesn’t suddenly go away just because you focus on condi damage.

Yeah. No.

They are for Fractals.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

As for the OP, I suppose the biggest issue I have is that I see this completely in reverse. It isn’t unfair to other builds because power builds get a 5% increase via weapon strength with ascended. It is unfair to power builds because they have to get ascended to get their full potential. It is an extra demand necessary for the build.

This makes no sense. The best tier gives you significantly improved potential and you are complaining while the best tier does not significantly improve the potential of other builds?

Is this real life?

DGraves.3720:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

As for the OP, I suppose the biggest issue I have is that I see this completely in reverse. It isn’t unfair to other builds because power builds get a 5% increase via weapon strength with ascended. It is unfair to power builds because they have to get ascended to get their full potential. It is an extra demand necessary for the build.

This makes no sense. The best tier gives you significantly improved potential and you are complaining while the best tier does not significantly improve the potential of other builds?

Is this real life?

It doesn’t matter if it gives a significant improvement. All that matters is if the potency of that skill competes with the others. When power builds needed ascended gear to compete with condition build’s exotic gear, then that’s a problem.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It doesn’t matter if it gives a significant improvement. All that matters is if the potency of that skill competes with the others. When power builds needed ascended gear to compete with condition build’s exotic gear, then that’s a problem.

… But it doesn’t. At all. I’ve no idea how you guys do your math and crazy numbers but condition damage isn’t ever going to do better than raw consistent burst simply because one stack never hits that kind of damage. Ever.

DGraves.3720:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It doesn’t matter if it gives a significant improvement. All that matters is if the potency of that skill competes with the others. When power builds needed ascended gear to compete with condition build’s exotic gear, then that’s a problem.

… But it doesn’t. At all. I’ve no idea how you guys do your math and crazy numbers but condition damage isn’t ever going to do better than raw consistent burst simply because one stack never hits that kind of damage. Ever.

Aside from Burnzerkers briefly demonstrating this false, the fact is that condition damage is inflicted by all the stacks, not just one. Also, condition damage is usually safer to use than power damage, which means that while in a vacuum a power build does better, in practice a condition build does better. Conditions aren’t affected by protection or weakness, either, which chip away at power builds and can be a severe pain (especially in higher fractals). Also consider that condition builds still do direct damage, which after maximum might/fury and team buffs, still stand for a substantial contribution to damage outside of just the conditions that are inflicted.

Then again, last I checked you have no clue how condition damage works. It appears that fact has not changed.

Have to go with BRA on this once again.

TC has this the wrong way around. If the game gets balanced around ascended gear, then power builds will require ascended while condition builds can easily get away with non ascended armor.

That being said, while TC is correct that pure stat wise ascended armor benefits power builds more (thus making it a requirement), both damage mechanics work in such a different manner that it’s impossible to just flat out demand a change without adjusting for every difference between both mechanics.

As is:
Power Builds require/provide:

- instant damage
- require 3 stat types for optimal damage (power, precision, ferocity)
- are subject to toughness/armor damage mitigation (both pve and pvp)
- are subject to damage mitigation from protection and weakness (weakness being more a pvp thing, but protection does appear in pve)
- benefit from ferocity boon (while condition builds do too, crit chance is a primary damage stat for power builds while it is secondary for condition builds)

Condition builds require/provide:

- 2 stats for damage (condition damage + duration)(with precision for procs coming as third stat secondary wise depending on class)
- ignore toughness/armor/protection damage mitigation
- are subject to cleanses (more of a pvp issue, almost non existant in pve)
- are subject to resistance boon damage mitigation (again, pvp issue and not pve)
- are fire and forget meaning condition builds can rotate to safer play once conditions are stacked
- benefit more from buff food (do the math of how much condi duration food gives in form of stat value)

All that being said, yes numerically power builds draw a bigger benefit from ascended armor. That means though that ascended is more of a requirement for power builds compared to condition builds. What remains to be proven by TC is how this creates an imbalance in the actual game with all the points mentioned above.

I’m not sure how this is even a problem?

So tanks, condi dps and healers don’t really need ascended weapons, while power does… Isn’t that good for tanks, healers and condi builds?

And upgrading the weapon level still does provide benefits. Everyone takes swings at the boss which are based on power damage.

And it’s not like ascended weapons are hard to come by.

Sarrs.4831:

I’m not sure how this is even a problem?

So tanks, condi dps and healers don’t really need ascended weapons, while power does… Isn’t that good for tanks, healers and condi builds?

And upgrading the weapon level still does provide benefits. Everyone takes swings at the boss which are based on power damage.

OP (supported by frequent posters BRA and Cyninja) contends that ascended offers greater benefits to power-based builds. OP asks: since it costs the same (roughly) to build either type of ascended gear — shouldn’t they offer (roughly) the same value?

I’d argue that they do provide comparable value, which is difficult to compare with just raw numbers. We tend to think that +40 power and +40 precision are comparable because the numbers are the same, but the true impact isn’t as simple to compare as looking at the stat number. We have to look at actual gameplay results and so far, I don’t see anyone doing that in this thread.

Sarrs.4831:

And it’s not like ascended weapons are hard to come by.

Plus, ascended gear is hard to come by for the vast majority of players: anyone who doesn’t craft, anyone who plays for short periods of time, and people who focus on certain types of content. (I’m not arguing that it should be easier — I’m pointing out that for a lot of people, it’s not easy to get ascended armor or weapons.)

If it’s exist, people will chase after it. Doesn’t matter if it’s actually better than the gear before. The golden rule is: Different color -> must be better (who likes numbers anyway). Let me list some Pros and Cons if they REALLY change asc gear:

Pros

• they would encourage people to gear up
• ascended armor would actually make a difference
• the new gear would worth the effort you put in to craft it
• every playstyle would benefit from it

Cons

• exotic gear will become ‘bad’
• every PUG group demand asc gear (okay, that’s the case right now, but their requests become legit)
• huge changes in WvW (jk… nobody plays WvW)
• some people are lucky – some not so much -> if you are lucky, you don’t have to put any effort into your significant better equipment (in contrast to the ones who have to craft it)
• ANet has to put some work into it (since time = money -> not gonna happen)

So… just an idea:
How about a rework of infusions? You can’t put any infusions into exotic gear, wich gives you a reason to get asc, but since usefull infusions for armor are extremely pricy nobody cares for them at all.

Make new infusions wich are affordable (maybe put them into a new profession or smth) and give them enough value to make a difference. You can even add some fancy stuff to them like: If you drop below 25% Health, you become larger (wich is helpfull for the healers).

This was just an idea with i had during breakfast, so i think there is much more potential if you give more thought to it

Hoaxintelligence.4628:

Why do people always want to nerf/delete stuff?
You should work for Arenanet.

The people that argue for that are simply those who don’t understand anything other than the floaty numbers and see theirs are smaller than others.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Sarrs.4831:

I’m not sure how this is even a problem?

So tanks, condi dps and healers don’t really need ascended weapons, while power does… Isn’t that good for tanks, healers and condi builds?

And upgrading the weapon level still does provide benefits. Everyone takes swings at the boss which are based on power damage.

OP (supported by frequent posters BRA and Cyninja) contends that ascended offers greater benefits to power-based builds. OP asks: since it costs the same (roughly) to build either type of ascended gear — shouldn’t they offer (roughly) the same value?

I’d argue that they do provide comparable value, which is difficult to compare with just raw numbers. We tend to think that +40 power and +40 precision are comparable because the numbers are the same, but the true impact isn’t as simple to compare as looking at the stat number. We have to look at actual gameplay results and so far, I don’t see anyone doing that in this thread.

Sarrs.4831:

And it’s not like ascended weapons are hard to come by.

Plus, ascended gear is hard to come by for the vast majority of players: anyone who doesn’t craft, anyone who plays for short periods of time, and people who focus on certain types of content. (I’m not arguing that it should be easier — I’m pointing out that for a lot of people, it’s not easy to get ascended armor or weapons.)

not everything has to be served on a bitesized plate. I play very casually, I have all ascended trinkets (they are handed out like sweets by the game) ive crafted 1 piece over a long time period, and there’s never been a situation where I have felt that I’m so underpowered that’s its noticeable. This is really about min-maxers who think in 1 dimension – max dps/hps per second.

TheMSR.7120:

How about a rework of infusions? You can’t put any infusions into exotic gear, wich gives you a reason to get asc, but since usefull infusions for armor are extremely pricy nobody cares for them at all.

Call me Nobody.

If you don’t care about them, it means you don’t care either (or don’t need) the AR from PvE infusions. Why don’t you use WvW infusions then? It takes 2 days by simply doing your dailies to get enough badges to craft one. As for the laurels… That’s 30 for the whole armor set, aka 23 days of login rewards. That sounds perfectly fine to me… I got them because I do play WvW and don’t give a d*mn about Fractals, but even for general PvE, they’re a pretty good value.

To the OP: I think you missed a few lines under your weapon damage: you know, that set of 3 or 4 attributes that actually get increased. Or the fact you actually have to hit your enemy to inflict a condition, most of the time.

Xyonon.3987:

Wahoo and hello!

---

I’ve been bothering myself about ascended gear and it’s effectivity lately. Currently, the only ascended gear you really want are trinkets (because of the huge stat difference) and weapons.

But the weapons are only so great because their weapon strength increases by 5% from exotic to ascended, which is useless for anyone else but power focused players.

Noone who is sane and not dirty rich would ever bother with an ascended armor or even weapons as a healer or condi profession. It just doesn’t matter and it costs too much.

---

So what’s the solution to this problem? Why would we want ascended armor? Why would anyone but power professions want ascended weapons? I suggest the following:

Weapons

• Ascended weapons should no longer grant 5% bonus weapon damage.
• They instead should have an additional note to them -> +5% (half for 1-handed weapons) damage and condition damage (not the stat, as a modifier like the 6th bonus of the zerker rune or GotL).
• The 5% increased stat bonus can still stay.

Armors

• Ascended armors now additionaly have a note to them -> +X% (according to armor piece) healing effectivity and -X% (according to armor piece) incoming damage and condition damage.
• Each piece has a different % number, like this: chest > leggins > helmet > shoulders = gloves = boots.
• A total ascended armor should grant 5% more healing and reduces every incoming damage by 5%.

---

With these changes, nothing would become imbalanced, but there would be a reason for specific professions and roles in every game mode to gear for ascended stuff. A Druid may want an ascended armor asap, a DD wants the weapons to be ready asap (even condis!), and tanks may want to have both.

What do you guys think? Don’t you think something has to change too???

---

Greez!
- Xyonon

There is not a problem with gear. The problem is that certain character attributes are not scaling well. Also, if you buy most materials off the trading post, instead of gathering and salvaging, then expect to spend more gold.

This is all flawed gear thinking too. You are basically asking for a base +5% to ALL attributes, on top of all the other increased stats.

Weapon strength is for direct impact damage.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon_strength

Defense reduces direct damage.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defense_

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

Other attribite stats are other attribute stats.

Condition and condition damage are handled differently.

They are all different, you can’t just mash all these things together.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Aside from Burnzerkers briefly demonstrating this false, the fact is that condition damage is inflicted by all the stacks, not just one.

If we are honest with ourselves for just a moment the fact that “all the individual stacks” hit is no different than all individual attacks hitting. If we are honest with ourselves for just a moment even to get one stack of burning to do 1,000 damage per second would take 5,613 condition damage. The amalgamated number you see is from numerous stacks and the method behind those stacks, especially for really high numbers, is rarely sustainable for longer than a few seconds or one iteration. It is also not the norm. The amount of stacks requires to achieve damage per second equivalent to some of the lowest auto attacks without critical strikes in the game in the amalgamated number is pretty much never “1” or even “5” or “10”. Some illusions are more pleasant to the eye, I admit, I enjoy seeing bleeding worth 3k but I keep in mind that it’s from the 20 stacks not because I’m so pro and smart I figured out how to make that genuinely happen through stats.

Also, condition damage is usually safer to use than power damage, which means that while in a vacuum a power build does better, in practice a condition build does better.

Nonsense. It depends on the class, it depends on the application, and it depends on the rotation; as an Engineer I can tell you that condition management forces you to do both and get into CQC and play ranged and requires a lot of concentration when you try for a full rotation. There are times when standing still with a rifle seems more appealing than working to get the full X stacks of bleeding and maintaining as much burning as possible through dropping bombs and trying to lay your napalm correctly. Condition damage is also often attached to skills that have lower damage coefficients so in the end you may not actually win out in per second measurements especially considering you lose ferocity. The difference between 1.5 and 2.67 is rather massive with a high coefficient skill.

Conditions aren’t affected by protection or weakness, either, which chip away at power builds and can be a severe pain (especially in higher fractals).

No, they aren’t, but they are effected by your ability to actually stack them; some classes clearly are not as good as it as others and while there are places where it does win out again it’s not only not the norm but since protection is just a 33% increase to armor overall you can also call it a 33% decrease to ferocity so again you may not win out with condition damage depending on the class and so forth and so on.

Also consider that condition builds still do direct damage, which after maximum might/fury and team buffs, still stand for a substantial contribution to damage outside of just the conditions that are inflicted.

Condition builds tend to veer on the much lesser side of direct damage; most of their skills have lower coefficients to compensate, many of their skills are not BiS options for power (or anywhere near) and rarely, if ever, could be comparable and supplemented, and then again they lose ferocity almost 100% of the time trying to instead rather desperately increase the duration of the condition so the stacks get higher so the amalgamated number looks prettier.

There is a point in which condition damage should win out against power but that point and bar are very high and would exist regardless of what equipment tier you chose because the change in defense would be significantly higher than the change in attack in most scenarios since that’s how you build encounters to expected teams.

In most cases for most of this game you would be better off running berserker and having conditions be secondary than running conditions and having power be secondary. Again, it depends on how people run their models, but I’ve yet to see, test, or otherwise experience an ascended condition damage build set-up across all classes that completely trumps even an exotic berserker.

THIS is bad because that means ascended is a frivolous quest for players who do not use power as their main stat. Not only that but power feeds off of two stats, itself and ferocity, and condition damage feeds off of one, itself, because duration does not in fact increase the damage dealt per tick just per cycle and that is a very different thing to measure when talking about DPS and capturing the highest value sustainable second (HVSS).

Then again, last I checked you have no clue how condition damage works. It appears that fact has not changed.

You know what? I don’t bother with calculations and all that stuff. I just made two reapers – one zerker power reaper and one condi reaper. Each has an Ascended staff, zerker and condi, respectively. I use them in different areas of the map. And I can definitely can see the advantage of condi Ascended weapon on a condi build vs zerker Ascended weapon on zerker build on certain mobs.
Try it. You might be surprised.

Oh power as in power build.

I’m running glorious casual wupwup gear. Feels good to get that extra armor and stat increases that have to be rounded up because 5% is too low. Ahhhhhh

DGraves.3720:

THIS is bad because that means ascended is a frivolous quest for players who do not use power as their main stat. Not only that but power feeds off of two stats, itself and ferocity, and condition damage feeds off of one, itself, because duration does not in fact increase the damage dealt per tick just per cycle and that is a very different thing to measure when talking about DPS and capturing the highest value sustainable second (HVSS).

You really need to actually read up on condition damage and stop makeing assumptions or wrong conclusions.

You can’t argue DPS and then omit condition duration. Single condition ticks are meaningless unless you only look at initial tick application (which is bs since you don’t base any type of damage arguments over alpha damage. While that is interesting it is near meaningless in a game like GW2 for pve and at best slightly meaningful for pvp). Condition duration extends the amount of ticks so at the very least at the end of 1 cycle, the second cycle will have a higher DPS since conditions from cycle 1 are longer present.

Also power benefits from 3 stats (power, precision and ferocity). Stop trying to wiggle your way through with bad analogies, comparisons and straight up faultly argumentation. That might fool people who have no clue of how damage calculations in this game work, but not any semi competent person who has a base understanding of mechanics.

As a player who is not dirty rich, with 2 sets of armor and a load of weapons, let me in part you with some wisdom.

You get Ascended gear (rings/armor/weapons) as drops in PvP. I’ve had enough drops to kit out my Rev, in full ascended plus hammer/ staff my ranger has weapon (bow) and my warrior has full weapons too. Great sword and Axe, and is in full armor. And I have 3 parts of light armor. And more rings than I can use.

Cyninja.2954:

DGraves.3720:

THIS is bad because that means ascended is a frivolous quest for players who do not use power as their main stat. Not only that but power feeds off of two stats, itself and ferocity, and condition damage feeds off of one, itself, because duration does not in fact increase the damage dealt per tick just per cycle and that is a very different thing to measure when talking about DPS and capturing the highest value sustainable second (HVSS).

You really need to actually read up on condition damage and stop makeing assumptions or wrong conclusions.

You can’t even spell “making”! So ha!

But really, let’s hear this:

You can’t argue DPS and then omit condition duration.

Considering “normalized crest value” actually contains it innately, I’m not. If you have 1,000 dps on a bleed per second the duration is required to be calculated into it to even solve for it’s crest. So actually yes, yes I can.

Single condition ticks are meaningless unless you only look at initial tick application (which is bs since you don’t base any type of damage arguments over alpha damage. While that is interesting it is near meaningless in a game like GW2 for pve and at best slightly meaningful for pvp).

False.

You can actually take the initial damage and extend it out over and number of iterations or scenarios. But this is another discussion for another year and likely with another person. The entire basis of a hypothetical is always singular instance combined with variables.

Condition duration extends the amount of ticks so at the very least at the end of 1 cycle, the second cycle will have a higher DPS since conditions from cycle 1 are longer present.

False. God why can’t you people understand the concept of continuity? When you have any attack that does damage over time you have to use capture seconds in order to figure out how effective it is, an attack that does 1,000 straight + 1,000 dot is equivalent to an attack that does either 2,000 dot or 2,000 straight damage. They are the same. Because for some reason you don’t take the attack in it’s full value in the second it’s applied you trip over yourselves with this nonsense. That’s why you can just take the crest value and apply it across the full minute since most DPS calcs use minute 2 anyway (due to nature of continuity).

Also power benefits from 3 stats (power, precision and ferocity).

Two. Precision exists regardless of power and regardless of ferocity values so if you have precision, toughness, vitality 70% chance to do 1.5 damage is simply 70% chance to do 1.5 damage. Power increases base damage and ferocity increases damage from critical strikes. Yes, you can roll them together, and no, you really should not since precision works independent of all factors noted above.

Stop trying to wiggle your way through with bad analogies, comparisons and straight up faultly argumentation.

Sadly there’s little to nothing to “wiggle” about. Instead of the general “You’ve no idea what you’re saying!” I will go with “This is why you don’t actually do 25k dps.”

That might fool people who have no clue of how damage calculations in this game work, but not any semi competent person who has a base understanding of mechanics.

It turns out that people are better at fooling themselves into obscene silliness. I need do very little to nothing.

DGraves.3720:

Cyninja.2954:

DGraves.3720:

THIS is bad because that means ascended is a frivolous quest for players who do not use power as their main stat. Not only that but power feeds off of two stats, itself and ferocity, and condition damage feeds off of one, itself, because duration does not in fact increase the damage dealt per tick just per cycle and that is a very different thing to measure when talking about DPS and capturing the highest value sustainable second (HVSS).

You really need to actually read up on condition damage and stop makeing assumptions or wrong conclusions.

You can’t even spell “making”! So ha!

But really, let’s hear this:

You can’t argue DPS and then omit condition duration.

Considering “normalized crest value” actually contains it innately, I’m not. If you have 1,000 dps on a bleed per second the duration is required to be calculated into it to even solve for it’s crest. So actually yes, yes I can.

Single condition ticks are meaningless unless you only look at initial tick application (which is bs since you don’t base any type of damage arguments over alpha damage. While that is interesting it is near meaningless in a game like GW2 for pve and at best slightly meaningful for pvp).

False.

You can actually take the initial damage and extend it out over and number of iterations or scenarios. But this is another discussion for another year and likely with another person. The entire basis of a hypothetical is always singular instance combined with variables.

Condition duration extends the amount of ticks so at the very least at the end of 1 cycle, the second cycle will have a higher DPS since conditions from cycle 1 are longer present.

False. God why can’t you people understand the concept of continuity? When you have any attack that does damage over time you have to use capture seconds in order to figure out how effective it is, an attack that does 1,000 straight + 1,000 dot is equivalent to an attack that does either 2,000 dot or 2,000 straight damage. They are the same. Because for some reason you don’t take the attack in it’s full value in the second it’s applied you trip over yourselves with this nonsense. That’s why you can just take the crest value and apply it across the full minute since most DPS calcs use minute 2 anyway (due to nature of continuity).

Also power benefits from 3 stats (power, precision and ferocity).

Two. Precision exists regardless of power and regardless of ferocity values so if you have precision, toughness, vitality 70% chance to do 1.5 damage is simply 70% chance to do 1.5 damage. Power increases base damage and ferocity increases damage from critical strikes. Yes, you can roll them together, and no, you really should not since precision works independent of all factors noted above.

Stop trying to wiggle your way through with bad analogies, comparisons and straight up faultly argumentation.

Sadly there’s little to nothing to “wiggle” about. Instead of the general “You’ve no idea what you’re saying!” I will go with “This is why you don’t actually do 25k dps.”

That might fool people who have no clue of how damage calculations in this game work, but not any semi competent person who has a base understanding of mechanics.

It turns out that people are better at fooling themselves into obscene silliness. I need do very little to nothing.

This has got to be THE worst drivel I have read in a long time.

Where to start…

DGraves.3720:

You can actually take the initial damage and extend it out over and number of iterations or scenarios. But this is another discussion for another year and likely with another person. The entire basis of a hypothetical is always singular instance combined with variables.

And if you want to be able to compare over time damage versus instant direct damage you would have to adjust the initial tick duration damage for the total amount of damage it would do over x-amount of time versus direct damage over x-amount of time. At the very least you would have to factor for the INCREASE the condition damage increases thanks to duration extension.

100% condition duration increases condition damge by exactly 2 since condition now apply for 2 times as long. You would have to adjust your intial tick damage by either 2 or adjust for multiple condition stacks. Hence looking at single stacks is meaningless.

DGraves.3720:

False. God why can’t you people understand the concept of continuity? When you have any attack that does damage over time you have to use capture seconds in order to figure out how effective it is, an attack that does 1,000 straight + 1,000 dot is equivalent to an attack that does either 2,000 dot or 2,000 straight damage. They are the same. Because for some reason you don’t take the attack in it’s full value in the second it’s applied you trip over yourselves with this nonsense. That’s why you can just take the crest value and apply it across the full minute since most DPS calcs use minute 2 anyway (due to nature of continuity).

And condition duration increases the amount of damage the attack does over x-amount of time by x-amount. Hence only the first rotation is not affected by it, every one after will be. That is why I said alpha damage does not matter. But thank you for once again proving my point while showing you have 0 understanding yourself.

DGraves.3720:

Two. Precision exists regardless of power and regardless of ferocity values so if you have precision, toughness, vitality 70% chance to do 1.5 damage is simply 70% chance to do 1.5 damage. Power increases base damage and ferocity increases damage from critical strikes. Yes, you can roll them together, and no, you really should not since precision works independent of all factors noted above.

You can’t be serious. I mean, really. Wow….

Precision is an integral part of power builds until you cap at 100%. To state that precision is meaningless in the power damage calculations is, not even sure what to say.

Cyninja.2954:

This has got to be THE worst drivel I have read in a long time.

So cordial. I’ll keep my banter to a minimum since my time is actually valuable at the moment.

Where to start…

DGraves.3720:

You can actually take the initial damage and extend it out over and number of iterations or scenarios. But this is another discussion for another year and likely with another person. The entire basis of a hypothetical is always singular instance combined with variables.

And if you want to be able to compare over time damage versus instant direct damage you would have to adjust the initial tick duration damage for the total amount of damage it would do over x-amount of time versus direct damage over x-amount of time. At the very least you would have to factor for the INCREASE the condition damage increases thanks to duration extension.

“Yes”.

100% condition duration increases condition damge by exactly 2 since condition now apply for 2 times as long. You would have to adjust your intial tick damage by either 2 or adjust for multiple condition stacks. Hence looking at single stacks is meaningless.

“No.”

100% condition duration increase the duration of a condition but does not increase condition damage. They are not the same thing. This is only true under optimal/normal circumstances. I.E. if there is no condi-clear. A bleed that’s worth 5s and a bleed that’s worth 5,000s are both worth the same if the condition is cleared at second 3.

This is specifically why you do not equate the two or convert one into the other. It only is true if the full duration passes. You would not ever adjust your initial tick damage due to condition duration; that’s the same problem you would have when adjusting your power by your precision. I imagine that’s coming up.

DGraves.3720:

False. God why can’t you people understand the concept of continuity? When you have any attack that does damage over time you have to use capture seconds in order to figure out how effective it is, an attack that does 1,000 straight + 1,000 dot is equivalent to an attack that does either 2,000 dot or 2,000 straight damage. They are the same. Because for some reason you don’t take the attack in it’s full value in the second it’s applied you trip over yourselves with this nonsense. That’s why you can just take the crest value and apply it across the full minute since most DPS calcs use minute 2 anyway (due to nature of continuity).

And condition duration increases the amount of damage the attack does over x-amount of time by x-amount. Hence only the first rotation is not affected by it, every one after will be. That is why I said alpha damage does not matter. But thank you for once again proving my point while showing you have 0 understanding yourself.

See above: Separate Variables.

DGraves.3720:

Two. Precision exists regardless of power and regardless of ferocity values so if you have precision, toughness, vitality 70% chance to do 1.5 damage is simply 70% chance to do 1.5 damage. Power increases base damage and ferocity increases damage from critical strikes. Yes, you can roll them together, and no, you really should not since precision works independent of all factors noted above.

You can’t be serious. I mean, really. Wow….

Precision is an integral part of power builds until you cap at 100%. To state that precision is meaningless in the power damage calculations is, not even sure what to say.

Just because it’s a part of a build does not make it an equivalent element in a build. Look, there are three things distinctly wrong with taking critical hit chance and converting it to power.

1. Battles are over too soon for averaging to work. You don’t actually get enough strikes in to see a true effect of averaging and that’s just the way the game is. Averaging naturally takes thousands if not millions of iterations which can be seen with any number of experiments including basic penny flipping.

2. When one uses 100 or 0% of any randomized aspect they are setting the value to 0 or 1 which renders it “set” or “unnecessary to consider”. You would only care about your average critical hit chance if it was greater than 0 and less than 100. You don’t “convert” precision into power you literally just set precision to a value that renders it unnecessary to account for when you use 100%.

3. Your precision does not directly effect damage (A.K.A. it is not in the damage formula). Your precision effects the random nature of something. Your Ferocity directly effects your damage under a condition (critical strike) and your power directly effects your damage under all instances.

Now then, tell me more about your normalized system and how you ignore most things for the convenience of assumption. To be frank this is why you think you do 25k dps. You don’t actually know how to model things. You presume and allocate all sorts of values in completely wonky ways or just equate variables without understanding how that is actually working.

And by the way you don’t need 100% condition duration to do the most damage with a condition. There is a real formula for that and while some condition duration is required the difference between values depends on the base length of the condition and the sacrifice between condition damage and expertise. This gets more apparent with burning.

If you have for instance 1108 condition damage and a 10s burn and up that by an 90% condition duration for an 19s burn you will do 5,761.56 versus a doubled up 946 condition damage burn at 20s for 5,562.6 and yes it gets worse and you go up and it requires less and less condition damage. I enjoyed finding a breakpoint because I didn’t buy into it right away probably because I made condition builds when I first started a long, long time ago.

Ardid.7203:

So my investment on viper armor for my engie was a really really bad deal… and a lot of raid groups looking for “Viper ascended condi build” are plainly wrong.

To be fair condi engi has the advantage of using skills that scale well with power ( such as grenade barrage, shrapnel grenade, poison grenade, big ol’ bomb, poison dart volley. Even nade autos scale reasonably well with power).

DGraves.3720:

100% condition duration increase the duration of a condition but does not increase condition damage. They are not the same thing. This is only true under optimal/normal circumstances. I.E. if there is no condi-clear. A bleed that’s worth 5s and a bleed that’s worth 5,000s are both worth the same if the condition is cleared at second 3.

This is specifically why you do not equate the two or convert one into the other. It only is true if the full duration passes. You would not ever adjust your initial tick damage due to condition duration; that’s the same problem you would have when adjusting your power by your precision. I imagine that’s coming up.

Wrong, it increases the total damage the condition does. It does NOT increase unique or single ticks. Your are looking at single tick modification and omiting important factors which, if you wanted to compare direct versus condition damage are relevant.

Yes, the per tick damage does not change, but the overall condition damage does.

A bleed that is worth 5k will be worth 10k once the first cycle is over and for every cycle henceforth no matter if the single stacks still do 5k since condition duration has effectively doubled the amount of stacks on target. You have drawn multiple conclusion without taking the extended duration into effect (like stating condition duration does not increase condition damage).

That is in fact the main problem. You correctly kitten different factors, then omit part of the equation and come up with bogus results.

DGraves.3720:

See above: Separate Variables.

Which is of no consequence when looking at the final result and comparing overall damage numbers. Sure the process of HOW those damage numbers come to be might be interesting, but when comparing for final result the process becomes secondary.

DGraves.3720:

Just because it’s a part of a build does not make it an equivalent element in a build. Look, there are three things distinctly wrong with taking critical hit chance and converting it to power.

1. Battles are over too soon for averaging to work. You don’t actually get enough strikes in to see a true effect of averaging and that’s just the way the game is. Averaging naturally takes thousands if not millions of iterations which can be seen with any number of experiments including basic penny flipping.

Wrong. Optimised power builds hit 100% crit cap with ascended and boons. No need for averages when you are caped. What this has to do with precision not being part of a power build equation is beyond me but hey, you brought it up.

DGraves.3720:

Just because it’s a part of a build does not make it an equivalent element in a build. Look, there are three things distinctly wrong with taking critical hit chance and converting it to power.

Okay, something is part of a build but it’s not an element of said build. Okay.

DGraves.3720:

2. When one uses 100 or 0% of any randomized aspect they are setting the value to 0 or 1 which renders it “set” or “unnecessary to consider”. You would only care about your average critical hit chance if it was greater than 0 and less than 100. You don’t “convert” precision into power you literally just set precision to a value that renders it unnecessary to account for when you use 100%.

Which makes the stat still required to hit that 100% thus having to factor for it when doing itemisation and stat value adjustments. Precision does not magically hit 100% because you want it to, you need to devote value of that stat on items to reach the cap.

DGraves.3720:

3. Your precision does not directly effect damage (A.K.A. it is not in the damage formula). Your precision effects the random nature of something. Your Ferocity directly effects your damage under a condition (critical strike) and your power directly effects your damage under all instances.

- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit

Damage = (Skill damage * Positive multipliers) / (Armor * Negative multipliers)
- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage_calculation

Oh wait, you ment the power damage formula which gets calculated before adjusting for critical damage. Yeah sorry, unfortunately we don’t stop at intermediate points for damage calculations but only once every step has been passed.

Precision is a damage multiplier. The fact that it gets applied after the power damage calculation might be interesting for comparisons inbetween stats (say what break points it be of more value to stop adding precision over a different stat) but as far as total output goes it is an integral part of power builds. Less so for condition builds.

DGraves.3720:

And by the way you don’t need 100% condition duration to do the most damage with a condition. There is a real formula for that and while some condition duration is required the difference between values depends on the base length of the condition and the sacrifice between condition damage and expertise. This gets more apparent with burning.

I was using the 100% as an easy example. True, condition duration might not be the best value per stat allocation. But that only means that a different stat might be of more value at certain breakpoints which in turn directly proves that condition duration is of value to the overall damage quation thus making it a required stat.

DGraves.3720:

If you have for instance 1108 condition damage and a 10s burn and up that by an 90% condition duration for an 18s burn you will do 5,761.56 versus a doubled up 946 condition damage burn at 20s for 5,562.6 and yes it gets worse and you go up and it requires less and less condition damage. I enjoyed finding a breakpoint because I didn’t buy into it right away probably because I made condition builds when I first started a long, long time ago.

90% of 10 seconds is 19 seconds duration, not 18. Thus your equation ends up being:

first rotation
1108 condition damage (605 burning damage per second – )
10 seconds
—————
6,050 condition damage total

19 seconds
————-
11,495 condition damage total (5445 bonus from duration)

Thus we now end up having for future rotations:
605 burning damage per second
+ 544,5 burning damage per second (from our condition duration broken down to 10 seconds, the actual damage per tick is also 605 but only for 9 seconds)
———-
1149,5 burning damage per second (11,495 for 10 seconds)

Now instead of 90% condition duration let’s use condition damage at (1% duration = 15 stat points expertise) = 1350 more condition damage (let’s omite the fact that you can’t have double condition damage on items)

2458 condition damage (943 burning per second)
10 seconds
————
9,430 condition damage

11,495 > 9,430.

Please show again how duration loses out to straight condition damage. How is condition duration not part of condition builds again?

Cyninja.2954:

90% of 10 seconds is 19 seconds duration, not 18. Thus your equation ends up being:

first rotation
1108 condition damage (605 burning damage per second – )
10 seconds
—————
6,050 condition damage total

19 seconds
————-
11,495 condition damage total (5445 bonus from duration)

Thus we now end up having for future rotations:
605 burning damage per second
+ 544,5 burning damage per second (from our condition duration broken down to 10 seconds, the actual damage per tick is also 605 but only for 9 seconds)
———-
1149,5 burning damage per second (11,495 for 10 seconds)

Now instead of 90% condition duration let’s use condition damage at (1% duration = 15 stat points expertise) = 1350 more condition damage (let’s omite the fact that you can’t have double condition damage on items)

2458 condition damage (943 burning per second)
10 seconds
————
9,430 condition damage

11,495 > 9,430.

Please show again how duration loses out to straight condition damage. How is condition duration not part of condition builds again?

Wiki:
(0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131.5 damage per stack per second at Level 80.

131.5+1108*.155 = 303.24

303.24 * 10 = 3032.4

3032.4 * 19 = 5,761.56

131.5+946*.155 = 278.13

278.13 * 10 = 2781.3

2781.3 * 2 = 5562.6

This is not champion level mathematics. It really isn’t. I don’t know how you managed to mess that up. I really don’t.

I’m almost of the mind that you think if you graphed condition damage and condition duration you’d parallel lines. No, you don’t know what that means, I do, but you do not, and that is really all there is to it.

DGraves.3720:

Cyninja.2954:

90% of 10 seconds is 19 seconds duration, not 18. Thus your equation ends up being:

first rotation
1108 condition damage (605 burning damage per second – )
10 seconds
—————
6,050 condition damage total

19 seconds
————-
11,495 condition damage total (5445 bonus from duration)

Thus we now end up having for future rotations:
605 burning damage per second
+ 544,5 burning damage per second (from our condition duration broken down to 10 seconds, the actual damage per tick is also 605 but only for 9 seconds)
———-
1149,5 burning damage per second (11,495 for 10 seconds)

Now instead of 90% condition duration let’s use condition damage at (1% duration = 15 stat points expertise) = 1350 more condition damage (let’s omite the fact that you can’t have double condition damage on items)

2458 condition damage (943 burning per second)
10 seconds
————
9,430 condition damage

11,495 > 9,430.

Please show again how duration loses out to straight condition damage. How is condition duration not part of condition builds again?

Wiki:
(0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131.5 damage per stack per second at Level 80.

131.5+1108*.155 = 303.24

303.24 * 10 = 3032.4

3032.4 * 19 = 5,761.56

---

131.5+946*.155 = 278.13

278.13 * 10 = 2781.3

2781.3 * 2 = 5562.6

This is not champion level mathematics. It really isn’t. I don’t know how you managed to mess that up. I really don’t.

I’m almost of the mind that you think if you graphed condition damage and condition duration you’d parallel lines. No, you don’t know what that means, I do, but you do not, and that is really all there is to it.

Correct, I unfortuntaly used hanzo instead of doing the math myself which did give scewed results. Okay, so you have effectively proven there are break points for condition duration usefulness. How does this reduce the stat though to not being part of condition builds?

Unless you can prove condition duration is less valuable than condition damage for every single breakpoint, you still need to show that it is not part of the condition damage equation.

Not to mention that you did not answer any of the other points.

Cyninja.2954:

Correct, I unfortuntaly used hanzo instead of doing the math myself which did give scewed results. Okay, so you have effectively proven there are break points for condition duration usefulness. How does this reduce the stat though to not being part of condition builds?

Unless you can prove condition duration is less valuable than condition damage for every single breakpoint, you still need to show that it is not part of the condition damage equation.

Not to mention that you did not answer any of the other points.

There is actually only one point and all you need is an equivalency formula.

If you know that burning damage is [131.5 + X(.115)(nY)] where X is condition damage, n is the natural duration, and Y is condition duration then set Y to 2 and solve for X. That will tell you how much condition damage you need to get equivalency.

To get the highest DPS in a system in which you are giving up condition damage for something else you want as little condition duration as possible. You want to compress, that is shorten, the duration of all conditions as much as you possibly can without losing damage.

I did ignore the other points because the moment I read this I just thought, “no point”. In which if you’re not actually thinking about what you’re saying you’re wasting time. And you’re not. You just totally gave your agency to someone else who probably has errors in their own logic. I don’t know what Hanzo is but now I know not to trust it at all.

The formal formula:

[b + X©(t)(d)]

b: base of the condition
X: condition damage
c: condition coefficient
t: native time
d: condition duration

You can do it for all of them. I’m busy now.

Ascended gear is reasonable in cost.

The only problem is that character attribute scaling for certain stats is not good.

Stat and attribute designs for Ascended are fine.

DGraves.3720:

Cyninja.2954:

Correct, I unfortuntaly used hanzo instead of doing the math myself which did give scewed results. Okay, so you have effectively proven there are break points for condition duration usefulness. How does this reduce the stat though to not being part of condition builds?

Unless you can prove condition duration is less valuable than condition damage for every single breakpoint, you still need to show that it is not part of the condition damage equation.

Not to mention that you did not answer any of the other points.

There is actually only one point and all you need is an equivalency formula.

If you know that burning damage is [131.5 + X(.115)(nY)] where X is condition damage, n is the natural duration, and Y is condition duration then set Y to 2 and solve for X. That will tell you how much condition damage you need to get equivalency.

To get the highest DPS in a system in which you are giving up condition damage for something else you want as little condition duration as possible. You want to compress, that is shorten, the duration of all conditions as much as you possibly can without losing damage.

I did ignore the other points because the moment I read this I just thought, “no point”. In which if you’re not actually thinking about what you’re saying you’re wasting time. And you’re not. You just totally gave your agency to someone else who probably has errors in their own logic. I don’t know what Hanzo is but now I know not to trust it at all.

The formal formula:

[b + X©(t)(d)]

b: base of the condition
X: condition damage
c: condition coefficient
t: native time
d: condition duration

You can do it for all of them. I’m busy now.

You mean the equation is [131.5 + X(.155)(nY)] and not [131.5 + X(.115)(nY)], but hey, it is simple math and errors like that can happen.

Hazno (typo) is and outdated condition damage calculator (which I figured out after redoing the math) http://gw2.hazno.net/ so you can fault me for not double checking and making my life easy.

Then again, you did account for trait modification on your formula did you not? You know since trait duration modifications interact differently with condition duration:

[outgoing] = [base (unadjusted)] * (1 + [trait]) * (1 + MIN{ 1, [specific modifier] + [Condition Duration] } )

but yeah, let’s not get into that now.

And while your answer is nice and smug, you keep circuling around the fact that all your assumptions and statements so far in this thread are bogus. Let’s do a best of from this thread:

Condition damage never reaching consistant burst damage:

DGraves.3720:

… But it doesn’t. At all. I’ve no idea how you guys do your math and crazy numbers but condition damage isn’t ever going to do better than raw consistent burst simply because one stack never hits that kind of damage. Ever.

Which is a pure balance thing. If arenanet wanted to they could adjust for whatever they want and make conditions do as much damage as they like. In fact, burnzerkers were doing just that and other condition builds are not far behind at the moment. Your argument here, looking at single stacks while condition classes are more than capable to stack multiple stacks with single skill uses. You focus on single stack damage without looking at overall damage done in a timeperiod.

Putting off protection and armor as not worth mentioning

DGraves.3720:

No, they aren’t, but they are effected by your ability to actually stack them; some classes clearly are not as good as it as others and while there are places where it does win out again it’s not only not the norm but since protection is just a 33% increase to armor overall you can also call it a 33% decrease to ferocity so again you may not win out with condition damage depending on the class and so forth and so on.

If your argument where in any form true, arnenet would not have adjusted fractal 50+ enemy toughness to bring power builds in line with condition builds.

Also the ability to stack conditions is moot. Aside from engineer ideal rotation, there is almost no class in this game where rotations would be that difficult to pull off. This is a completely seperate point. If you want to compare protection or armor mitigation, then do it versus resistance or cleanse.

You putting of condition duration as not a dps increase, then showing that this is only true for certain breakpoint

DGraves.3720:

Condition builds tend to veer on the much lesser side of direct damage; most of their skills have lower coefficients to compensate, many of their skills are not BiS options for power (or anywhere near) and rarely, if ever, could be comparable and supplemented, and then again they lose ferocity almost 100% of the time trying to instead rather desperately increase the duration of the condition so the stacks get higher so the amalgamated number looks prettier.

BRA never claimed power damage from condition builds to be top end. He merely stated that power damage from condition builds does get the benefit of might stacks and fury.

And last but not least my favorite:
Power builds working off 2 stats and condition builds off 1

DGraves.3720:

THIS is bad because that means ascended is a frivolous quest for players who do not use power as their main stat. Not only that but power feeds off of two stats, itself and ferocity, and condition damage feeds off of one, itself, because duration does not in fact increase the damage dealt per tick just per cycle and that is a very different thing to measure when talking about DPS and capturing the highest value sustainable second (HVSS)

Power builds working off 2 stats (and it still is 3 no matter how you like spinning it) and omiting the condition damage increase from duration by showing certain breakpoints existing (which by the way no one contested in this thread).

So sure, be smug all you want. Then again, maybe be careful when using math, your posts so far have not been void of mistakes:

DGraves.3720:

If you have for instance 1108 condition damage and a 10s burn and up that by an 90% condition duration for an 19s burn you will do 5,761.56 versus a doubled up 946 condition damage burn at 20s for 5,562.6 and yes it gets worse and you go up and it requires less and less condition damage.

- 90% of 10 seconds is 9 seconds, not 8. I know you did the math right, but typo so let’s make fun of that.
- 1108 – 150 = 958 (you know since 10% condition duration is 150 expertise, why go lower?), thus your resulting damage numbers change from 5,562.6 to 5,599.8. Yeah, minor details, but you were so hung up on simple math, I’d hate to deprive you of these minor corrections.

Small fyi, while I did use the wrong formula (the old one, not the current one) my numbers using that wrong formula were actually correct, so let’s not lean to far out that window huh?

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

We have to look at actual gameplay results and so far, I don’t see anyone doing that in this thread.

How do you define “actual gameplay results” though? PUGs accepting exotic-weaponed healers/tanks/condi DPS while only accepting asc-weaponed power DPS?

There’s always that part of me that is convinced that DGraves is just trolling. The biggest problem with all of his assertions is that, if you simply tested them out, you’d find they are very clearly wrong. It’s not that hard, either. Just go to the mists, and try out condition damage on one of the golems.

Experiment A: Apply one condition, then apply a second stack of that condition. Does the enemy’s health bar move faster, or stay the same speed after applying the second condition?
Experiment B: Apply one condition, then apply a second condition that is different from the first one. Then after they’ve expired, apply the second condition by itself. Does the enemy’s health bar move faster or stay the same speed after applying the second kind of condition?
Experiment C: Against an indestructible golem, try auto attacking with a condition weapon. Take note of how much damage ticks away each second. Do this for a sustained period of time. Then, equip traits/gear that increases your condition duration. Again, attack the golem for a sustained period of time. Do you do more damage, or do you have the same damage?

DGraves is aggressively arguing points that are proven wrong within moments of anyone actually playing a condition build. As for the complicated stuff (like “break points”), I’ve already done all that in my Sinister Vs. Viper Comparison. But, to make a universal formula that exists without any of that pesky “limited by stat combos available” stuff…

Technically, expertise adds 1/1500 x damage per each point of investment via extra ticks, whereas malice will add 1 x condition specific modifier in damage per tick. For example, with bleed each point of malice will add 0.06 damage, whereas expertise will add 1/1500 x current damage per point in expertise.

The solution is easy: when does 1/1500 x damage = 0.06? That is when malice is equal to 1,133. It is at this point that each point of expertise equals each point in malice, and the stats should be raised fairly equally… on a point by point basis. This is the same for the following:

Bleed: 1,133
Poison: 942
Burn: 652
Torment: 1,146
Confusion: 1,214 (DoT)

Here is where things get a little strange. The thing with our build system is that we don’t freely get to choose our stats. We select our stats based on the gear sets available. In the sinister vs. viper thread I made, the strength of viper came largely from the fact that it sacrificed 11% of damage intensity for 39% duration, making it outright better. It simply throws more stats at condition damage overall.

On the other side, condition duration is given out quite freely from other sources. The 20% from Rare Veggie Pizzas is equivalent to 300 points of expertise. The 45% per specific rune set is equivalent to 675. The 20% sigils, 300 more points. When looking at stat investment on an item by item method, condition duration beats out largely because it is so much easier to get a hold of..