“A soft answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.” -Jewish Proverb
but a harsh word stirs up anger.” -Jewish Proverb
Ascended weapons
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So, if it happens, legendary weapons will become ascended but will there also be other weapons that will be ascended as well? I mostly ask this cause I like quite a few of the skins out there and would like to be able to at the least transmute them to be ascended (no, I would never transmute the stats of a legendary weapon to the skin I would prefer, that would just be a huge waste of gold).
Do you think there will, or should be, other ascended weapons if legendary ones become as such?
Funny, I know theres a video on this site even, where a game designer said legendaries will equal exotics in terms of stats.
Watch that interview, specifically at 8:45. Eric Flannum specifically says, and I quote “Legendary weapons, of course, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons. Infact each legendary is based off of a specific exotic weapon, so they are the same level power wise but look a whole lot different”
Here we go again with the debate. Are they going back on this one?
Seriously, if you’re about to flame me, at least watch the video at the specific point so that I can take you seriously when you decide to shoot me down…because you have a developer on camera saying legendaries are the same level power wise as exotics, they just look different. By the way, if ascended was ever intended during development, don’t you think they would have mentioned ascended items, maybe in this interview?
I know the video. And I’ve answered this question at least twice or three times before. It has nothing to do with flaming you.
Anet has said, over and over again, that they’re an interative company. This means things change. Do you have any idea of the list of things that have changed since this game was annouced?
Dyes were originally seeds that you planted and then you had to go to a special dye vendor to grow the seeds. You could only grow one at at time and it took 24 hours to find out what your dye was. They sold plant food in the cash shop to speed this process up. This was removed in favor of the current dye system. Did anyone complain about this? Nope. Because they LIKED that change.
Originally energy existed for skills. As such, people would run out of energy and there would be energy potions in game. Energy was later scrapped for skills, and energy potions along with them. Did people complain? Nope. They liked that change.
Lengendary weapons were originally supposed to be part of a horizontal progression, but not enough people were taking up the hunt for them. Anet looked at it and decided what to do, the same way they changed energy. The same way they changed dyes.
Yes, Anet said all three things, but only one of them gets complained about. I think it’s pretty disingenuous to bring up old interviews in an attempt to catch MMO companies in lies. MMO developers, unlike any other type of game, perhaps, are forced to make changes to the game on the fly. It happens all the time in every single MMO.
You either can live with the changes, or you can’t. But everyone becomes a back-seat developer and assumes they know what’s best for the game better than the devs. Sometimes, some of those people are right. Games like Star Wars Galaxies were absolutely destroyed by some of the changes that the developers made. Other games, however, were saved.
I guess in a couple of years we’ll know which way Guild Wars 2 went.
Dude, we aren’t talking about some Alpha feature or content that was initially slated in the game when they were actually drawing the art. The video I posted was made a mere one or two months prior to release… Not 1-2 years. Its a little bit different context. The video posted was during a time when the game at its core, and most of its systems, were set in stone. Yes, always iterations to these systems, but they are tweaks. Not game changing additions or subtractios. Adding in a new tier of gear is game changing if you are one of those MANY people that Want and thought they had BiS gear.
So you can’t compare something that was initially intended for the game 1-2 yrs prior to launch to something that was “intended” for the game 1-2 months.
They dye system appeared in the first beta and they changed it after. It doesn’t matter when. MMOs, ALL MMOs, evolve and many evolve heavily. There are things that will change a year from now. Two years from now. That’s the nature of MMOs.
Every line from a devs mouth isn’t a promise to you personally. It’s an intent at direction which may or may not pan out over the long haul. I’m pretty sure Anet devs don’t own crystal balls.
Not quoting to avoid walls of text, but…
@vayne: To one of your previous posts, “Noone can say where the game is headed not even the devs..its an iterative process”. Yes. But that doesn’t mean you have free reign to stray on what sold your customers. Why even bother to have blogs, interviews, webcasts talking about the game. Why even bother telling us anything about the game if you, as the developer, reserve the right to go back on anything you have said and change the game.The reason they say some of this, is because its supposed to be “stone”. At its core, set.
Again, tweaks are inevitable. Some things change, etc.
No vertical progression was mentioned in 2 or 3 interviews. It was never in game ads. It was never posted on their website. It was an intended design direction that didn’t pan out. It SUCKS that it didn’t pan out, not just for you, but for me too.
But I was here when the nothing to do at 80 posts were everywhere…not like now. There was a huge profusion of them.
And I don’t have the information Anet had about how many people got to a certain point and stopped logging in…but you can bet Anet had that information. The ascended gear was the fastest stop gap measure they could implement. Other stuff would have taken longer and I really don’t believe they felt they had much longer.
Taking stuff said in three interviews by devs and making it a core game promise, as opposed to taking it as a statement of intent will only lead to disappointment. A core game promise is no monthly fee. That’s on the box. It’s advertised. It’s what the game was sold on.
There have been to my knowledge, 2 maybe 3 quotes about vertical progression. It’s not in the manifesto. It’s not in ads. In each case it’s been in an interview and it was how the game launched. But what was Anet supposed to do if it literally wasn’t working? What would you have done?
@Vayne
I’m sorry, but, have you ever tried creating something for the long term? heck, I’m just a painter, not a full time developer, but even I have a ‘general vision and direction’ of what I want to achieve when I’m working on something that will take months to finish. Sure the tiny details may change, but the composition and vision does not.
If you’re telling me that the devs having no direction for the game is a ‘good’ and ‘natural’ thing, then, wow, I just don’t know what to say.
The devs have a general vision and direction too. I’m a professional writer and editor. I’ve had long term visions for books I’ve written that changed mid project. It happens. You try something, you see it doesn’t work, and you change it. That’s exactly what happened.
When this game launched, there was little vertical progression. Only masterwork to rare to exotic, which is of course a progression. But there were no ascended items. They tried it. And they found it wasn’t working. It worked FOR ME. It worked probably for the people complaining in this thread. However, if it doesn’t work for the bulk of the population, then something has to be done and Anet did it.
Let me put it another way. If it wasn’t something that absolultely had to be done, why would Anet have done it? They know what they said, They knew there would be a major backlash. They knew people would leave the game over it, but they did it anyway.
Don’t you think they must have had some sort of strong and compelling reason?
Vayne, good points..but there are still the “nothing to do at 80 posts”.
A side debate if you will—
So…
They release ascended gear with the Nov 15 patch. A huge backlash came about. I think even Colin and one of the game’s producers said they expected this. In the AMA they had a week or two later with the producer(whiteside is the last name), he said in a direct response to MY very own question I posted, that ascended gear was always intended. Well, if it was always intended and you seemed to have expected the community to freak out like it did, why didnt you launch the game and give us some heads up? Why not give the playerbase a headsup saying "Hey, we are releasing with XYZ tiers, and in a few months adding one more. " It was all hush hush until November 15th patch, or thereabouts. From an outsiders views, yours and mine, it would seem they were responding to the whiners and complainers of “nothing to do”…and added another tier into the game. It seemed this way because there was no mention of ascended gear in any betas, in any interviews, at launch, in the few months after launch. Nothing. They could have avoided that mega thread of 60,000 posts, or at least most of it, if they launched with some mention of ascended…Why wouldn’t they want to avoid bad press? They definately did receive bad press, bad rep, etc…even if the game is still flourishing. It could have been side stepped at least a little.
But it was always intended to be in the game…right?
I dont think so. I think that was a BS line.
Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.
Vayne, good points..but there are still the “nothing to do at 80 posts”.
A side debate if you will—
So…
They release ascended gear with the Nov 15 patch. A huge backlash came about. I think even Colin and one of the game’s producers said they expected this. In the AMA they had a week or two later with the producer(whiteside is the last name), he said in a direct response to MY very own question I posted, that ascended gear was always intended. Well, if it was always intended and you seemed to have expected the community to freak out like it did, why didnt you launch the game and give us some heads up? Why not give the playerbase a headsup saying "Hey, we are releasing with XYZ tiers, and in a few months adding one more. " It was all hush hush until November 15th patch, or thereabouts. From an outsiders views, yours and mine, it would seem they were responding to the whiners and complainers of “nothing to do”…and added another tier into the game. It seemed this way because there was no mention of ascended gear in any betas, in any interviews, at launch, in the few months after launch. Nothing.
But it was always intended to be in the game…right?
I dont think so. I think that was a BS line.
Actually I don’t think it was a BS line, but I think it was a bit of spin. I think it had been discussed and tabled, but then shelved because they didn’t have the manpower to bring it out. Technically I don’t think there was a decision to definitely include it, but I believe it was already on the drawing board. Not really a lie, so much as spin.
As for why they didn’t say anything…look at what happens when Anet does say stuff. Suppose they said something and they decided not to use it?
As for the nothing to do at 80 posts, there are one or two a day now. There were so many more before the fractals came out.
There’s a difference between people who can’t find “end game” and having no end game. Not everyone needs or wants end game, but many, many people do.
Half the nothing to do at 80 posts now are people posting because they literally don’t know where to find stuff. That was far less of the case back then.
If they simply did the following, most people would be happy:
1.Release fractals as they are today(OK they couldnt see the player gated content on day one until it happened..its a lot better now though, so thats progress).
2.Release Ascended gear with the same stats as exotic/legendary. The ONLY difference is, this gear has infusion slots so that people can eventually acquire this gear(progression) and eventually acquire the infusions(progression). Thus, not creating ANY gear treadmill since the innate stats on the gear itself is equal to that of exotic/legendary. They could have even included the stats you would get from runes or whatever. No stat increase. Just a dungeon-specific gear to allow you to progress into the higher levels.
They keep saying “You dont need ascended gear to play any part of the game, just high level fractals”. Well, if you truely believe that, why give a 5-10% stat boost on the gear? Why not make them equi-statted to that of exotic gear, with one extra slot for infusions?
And to correct you, ascended gear wasnt intended and then scratched. Whiteside said, it was always intended..it was always coming, always on the table. They just chose not to inform us, and knew we would get PO’d…makes no sense to me.
Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.
Sadly, and happily, my work day has come to a close.
My closing remarks:
I initially scoffed at ascended gear, and to an extent I still do.
I do feel lied to, to this day.
I do think there is a treadmill in this game.
I do like to entertain debates, like the one here.
But, I am turning over a new leaf and I am trying not to get overly PO’d about this game again. If that happens, I would probably be done for good. Ain’t nobody got time for dat.
See you in game tonight folks!
Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.
If they simply did the following, most people would be happy:
1.Release fractals as they are today(OK they couldnt see the player gated content on day one until it happened..its a lot better now though, so thats progress).
2.Release Ascended gear with the same stats as exotic/legendary. The ONLY difference is, this gear has infusion slots so that people can eventually acquire this gear(progression) and eventually acquire the infusions(progression). Thus, not creating ANY gear treadmill since the innate stats on the gear itself is equal to that of exotic/legendary. They could have even included the stats you would get from runes or whatever. No stat increase. Just a dungeon-specific gear to allow you to progress into the higher levels.They keep saying “You dont need ascended gear to play any part of the game, just high level fractals”. Well, if you truely believe that, why give a 5-10% stat boost on the gear? Why not make them equi-statted to that of exotic gear, with one extra slot for infusions?
And to correct you, ascended gear wasnt intended and then scratched. Whiteside said, it was always intended..it was always coming, always on the table. They just chose not to inform us, and knew we would get PO’d…makes no sense to me.
You can correct me all you want, I still believe it wasn’t a definite decision. That’s my belief. Nothing you can say is going to change it. My belief is based on knowing how the company works long term. If they’d planned on putting it into the game at some point, we’d have had a whiff of it before it came to pass. Something would have leaked. Nothing did.
I’m sure that it was being designed earlier than we saw/heard about it, but you know, companies like Anet they have a lot of chefs. Some guys expect it will go in, some guys are against it. It’s a company, not one person. So Chris Whiteside, who was presumbly for it, says yeah, it was always going to go in. I’m not sure every dev would answer that question quite the same way, because they were against it. And yes, I’m sure some devs were against it. It wasn’t a unanimous thing. It seems people forget that Anet is not a person but a group of people and they won’t always agree on everything.
I also don’t believe that having the same stats and an infusion slot would be enough for most players. People like BIS gear, even if they’re not doing fractals. They don’t need it, but they want it. They want it enough to do fractals to get it, which is sort of the point. It gave people stuff to work for.
I’m so far behind on the daily/monthly and guild mission gear grinds that I’m pretty well turned off to the game, for now. That said, if the game begins to interest me again, I can log back on and pick up where I left off, I guess.
If they add even more Ascended gear grind, I’ll probably never log on again. There’s no way I could keep up. And I wouldn’t want to. I have a job already; I don’t need another one to take up my free time.
It’s the same reason I quit other MMO’s. It was a job to keep up with the gear, and once I got behind, it just didn’t matter any more. So I always went back to Guild Wars, where there was no gear grind, so I could just focus on doing what I wanted and having fun.
TL:DR – more Ascended grind means there’s no chance of me coming back to GW2.
@Vayne
I’m sorry, but, have you ever tried creating something for the long term? heck, I’m just a painter, not a full time developer, but even I have a ‘general vision and direction’ of what I want to achieve when I’m working on something that will take months to finish. Sure the tiny details may change, but the composition and vision does not.
If you’re telling me that the devs having no direction for the game is a ‘good’ and ‘natural’ thing, then, wow, I just don’t know what to say.
Ok first of all the quoting system sucks because I want to include your post and the one directly below you
I can relate to what you are saying because I am a painter too, mainly in oils, because the medium is very forgiving.
When I make a new painting I have an idea, a theme and a vision of how the finished painting will turn out.
Very very rarely have I stuck to this rigidly, in fact my most compelling paintings came from making changes to what was simply not working as I envisioned it.
My husband is a developer, he does the same thing..
Things change, parameters are sometimes not valid anymore.
I think an iterative process is really the only sensible approach to take when you are working on such a massive project as GW2.
This is why we give our voices.
Anet has been extremely creative in dealing with this process, sure some of their iterations are not great but they continue on and keep on trying different things.
This is awesome to me because it shows their dedication and passion for their work.
All we can really do is give feedback
Gunnar’s Hold
@Vayne
I’m sorry, but, have you ever tried creating something for the long term? heck, I’m just a painter, not a full time developer, but even I have a ‘general vision and direction’ of what I want to achieve when I’m working on something that will take months to finish. Sure the tiny details may change, but the composition and vision does not.
If you’re telling me that the devs having no direction for the game is a ‘good’ and ‘natural’ thing, then, wow, I just don’t know what to say.
Ok first of all the quoting system sucks because I want to include your post and the one directly below you
I can relate to what you are saying because I am a painter too, mainly in oils, because the medium is very forgiving.
When I make a new painting I have an idea, a theme and a vision of how the finished painting will turn out.
Very very rarely have I stuck to this rigidly, in fact my most compelling paintings came from making changes to what was simply not working as I envisioned it.My husband is a developer, he does the same thing..
Things change, parameters are sometimes not valid anymore.I think an iterative process is really the only sensible approach to take when you are working on such a massive project as GW2.
This is why we give our voices.
Anet has been extremely creative in dealing with this process, sure some of their iterations are not great but they continue on and keep on trying different things.This is awesome to me because it shows their dedication and passion for their work.
All we can really do is give feedback
I change things too, small details and such, but then if I make a huge change or redo, then it’s no longer the same painting, is it? The first idea was scrapped for a new one.
Anet had a vision, they already sold that vision. I just don’t want to see that completely change somewhere down the line because, then, it’s no longer the same game.
@ gfox.
How much can you alter a painting and it still remains the same?
To me if the concept is true even the iteration of the final painting is not tied to my original vision
I feel you but at the same time I understand their process, sure I don’t always agree, which is why I add my voice here,
I think they have made some really bad design decisions in the past.
I do think that they may have a good thing going with the Living World, it really should have been implemented at launch
It wasn’t though, so we are still cleaning up the picture.
Gunnar’s Hold
@ gfox.
How much can you alter a painting and it still remains the same?
To me if the concept is true even the iteration of the final painting is not tied to my original vision
I feel you but at the same time I understand their process, sure I don’t always agree, which is why I add my voice here,
I think they have made some really bad design decisions in the past.I do think that they may have a good thing going with the Living World, it really should have been implemented at launch
It wasn’t though, so we are still cleaning up the picture.
Things like energy potion, dye system, etc.. those were changed and iterated during the beta. Those are gameplay mechanics, they’re not core concepts. You build your gameplay mechanics around core concepts.
Horizontal/Vertical progression, that’s core concept, and it changes the overall focus of the gameplay mechanics and content. Shifting from one to the other drastically changes the game.
Comparing to painting, it’s not just changing the bushes, trees, lighting or the perspective, but changing the whole concept from something like a “tropical paradise” to “snowy mountain peaks”.
Right now, GW2 is still more focused on its horizontal progression at max level so I’m happy about that, but I have a feeling it’s not going to be like this for long, and I feel that Anet will try to go for a half baked vertical progression just to cater to the gear grinders.
EDIT: I’m all for iterative process and improving the game. Adding ascended items, to me, is not improving on their core ideas, rather, taking a step backwards. If this was writing a book, it’s like scrapping your original writing instead of refining and improving them, then taking writing from a best selling book, hoping that yours will be a best seller too.
(edited by gfox.6501)
@Vayne
I’m sorry, but, have you ever tried creating something for the long term? heck, I’m just a painter, not a full time developer, but even I have a ‘general vision and direction’ of what I want to achieve when I’m working on something that will take months to finish. Sure the tiny details may change, but the composition and vision does not.
If you’re telling me that the devs having no direction for the game is a ‘good’ and ‘natural’ thing, then, wow, I just don’t know what to say.
Ok first of all the quoting system sucks because I want to include your post and the one directly below you
I can relate to what you are saying because I am a painter too, mainly in oils, because the medium is very forgiving.
When I make a new painting I have an idea, a theme and a vision of how the finished painting will turn out.
Very very rarely have I stuck to this rigidly, in fact my most compelling paintings came from making changes to what was simply not working as I envisioned it.My husband is a developer, he does the same thing..
Things change, parameters are sometimes not valid anymore.I think an iterative process is really the only sensible approach to take when you are working on such a massive project as GW2.
This is why we give our voices.
Anet has been extremely creative in dealing with this process, sure some of their iterations are not great but they continue on and keep on trying different things.This is awesome to me because it shows their dedication and passion for their work.
All we can really do is give feedbackI change things too, small details and such, but then if I make a huge change or redo, then it’s no longer the same painting, is it? The first idea was scrapped for a new one.
Anet had a vision, they already sold that vision. I just don’t want to see that completely change somewhere down the line because, then, it’s no longer the same game.
Anet sells access to a world. You’re asking a question that’s been asked a thousand times about a thousand products…but you’re not paying for a game when you buy an MMO you’re paying for admission to a theme park.
If Disneyworld were to close Horizons in Epcot Center (one of my favorite experiences), then I have the choice not to go again the next time…but I don’t get a choice to get a refund for today’s ticket. I don’t get to control what Disneyworld does. This is a theme park MMO and things will be tried and changed…just like every other MMO. Why do you keep ignoring this.
Most of what was said prior to the games release is still there, but other things were tried and didn’t work…so they were adjusted. That’s all. I saw the same ad material you did, but I walked into the MMO understanding I was just buying an admission ticket. That things can and would change. Anyone who walks into an MMO without knowing that has pretty much fooled themselves. In fact, when you talk to WoW people, how many walked away from that game because it’s changed? MMOs change, evolve, grow. Some people don’t like the direction in which they grow and they leave…but it changes nothing. You’re not buying a game, you’re paying for access to a space. If you don’t like the space, you can complain and you can leave…but there are no guarantees about what that space will contain long term.
@Vayne
I’m sorry, but, have you ever tried creating something for the long term? heck, I’m just a painter, not a full time developer, but even I have a ‘general vision and direction’ of what I want to achieve when I’m working on something that will take months to finish. Sure the tiny details may change, but the composition and vision does not.
If you’re telling me that the devs having no direction for the game is a ‘good’ and ‘natural’ thing, then, wow, I just don’t know what to say.
Ok first of all the quoting system sucks because I want to include your post and the one directly below you
I can relate to what you are saying because I am a painter too, mainly in oils, because the medium is very forgiving.
When I make a new painting I have an idea, a theme and a vision of how the finished painting will turn out.
Very very rarely have I stuck to this rigidly, in fact my most compelling paintings came from making changes to what was simply not working as I envisioned it.My husband is a developer, he does the same thing..
Things change, parameters are sometimes not valid anymore.I think an iterative process is really the only sensible approach to take when you are working on such a massive project as GW2.
This is why we give our voices.
Anet has been extremely creative in dealing with this process, sure some of their iterations are not great but they continue on and keep on trying different things.This is awesome to me because it shows their dedication and passion for their work.
All we can really do is give feedbackI change things too, small details and such, but then if I make a huge change or redo, then it’s no longer the same painting, is it? The first idea was scrapped for a new one.
Anet had a vision, they already sold that vision. I just don’t want to see that completely change somewhere down the line because, then, it’s no longer the same game.
I scrapped half a book I had under contract because it wasn’t working and rewrote it completely. It was better after the rewrite. The characters were the same. The story was not quite the same. It was better with the changes, but they were drastic. It happens sometimes. It was a much MUCH bigger change than what Anet has done to this game.
Your focus on this one element is what makes it seem so huge to you. But in reality, it’s not as big a change as you think. For example, you say you want no vertical progression.
Well, exotics from rares. that is vertical progression.
It’s been said people can’t do fractals with their guildies because they weren’t geared up to do them. If the stats on ascended gear were equal to the stats on exotic gear, and the only thing that was different was agony resistence, you STILL wouldn’t be able to do them. It’s not the vertical progression that makes the fractals undoable, its’ the extra condition which would have been part of the fractals with or without the stat increase. People would be in the same boat, with no vertical progression.
This whole thing is a mountain made out of a molehill. Anet didn’t put in full fledged gear grind here (as some people call it), they put in a gentle gear slope that people can get if they want without too much trouble, without being locked out of 99% of the content in the mean time. That’s not a gear grind and it’s not a huge change of policy.
Anet’s policy was to play the game your way. Well a lot of people were walking because they couldn’t, so Anet offered these people a new experience to give them something to do too. That’s all this is.
Your focus on this one element is what makes it seem so huge to you. But in reality, it’s not as big a change as you think. For example, you say you want no vertical progression.
Well, exotics from rares. that is vertical progression.
Clearly the issue is adding more tiers of progression after release. At release, it was possible to skip certain steps in the gear progression. By definition it is impossible to skip current steps to obtain yet-to-be-released gear. This adds layers of forced inefficiency, the go-to for average MMO companies everywhere.
This was a huge issue to the swarms of people who left the game after ascended gear was implemented. To claim that it’s not a big change to him is hubris masquerading as objectivity.
There was a time I could log in with BIS for all my gear and never have to worry about farming another piece of equipment again. Now even if I went ahead and did the grind for all the ascended pieces, there is a very high probability that this gear will need to be replaced later in order to maintain competitiveness in WvW and access to some of the (ostensibly) best and most difficult PvE content in the game. This is antithetical to a core principle of the Guild Wars franchise. It is a highly significant change to many people who had no desire to have to worry about changing out their gear by the mere fact of artificially raising stat or level caps. It also reduces the incentive to collect and apply certain skins, which indirectly, yet significantly, affects a core principle of cosmetic-based rewards.
Some people have the time and energy to spend the dozens of hours necessary to obtain new tiers of gear. To those people, of course these changes seem minor. But many of us have full-time jobs, families, volunteer opportunities, etc. I don’t have the desire to chase artificial stat increases. After an initial investment, I want to be able to play all available content. I don’t want to have to significantly reinvest in gearing up all over again just to be able to enjoy new content.
Far from being revolutionary, the addition of new tiers will transform this from an above-average MMO to a mediocre one.
“A soft answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.” -Jewish Proverb
but a harsh word stirs up anger.” -Jewish Proverb
Your focus on this one element is what makes it seem so huge to you. But in reality, it’s not as big a change as you think. For example, you say you want no vertical progression.
Well, exotics from rares. that is vertical progression.
Clearly the issue is adding more tiers of progression after release. At release, it was possible to skip certain steps in the gear progression. By definition it is impossible to skip current steps to obtain yet-to-be-released gear. This adds layers of forced inefficiency, the go-to for average MMO companies everywhere.
This was a huge issue to the swarms of people who left the game after ascended gear was implemented. To claim that it’s not a big change to him is hubris masquerading as objectivity.
There was a time I could log in with BIS for all my gear and never have to worry about farming another piece of equipment again. Now even if I went ahead and did the grind for all the ascended pieces, there is a very high probability that this gear will need to be replaced later in order to maintain competitiveness in WvW and access to some of the (ostensibly) best and most difficult PvE content in the game. This is antithetical to a core principle of the Guild Wars franchise. It is a highly significant change to many people who had no desire to have to worry about changing out their gear by the mere fact of artificially raising stat or level caps. It also reduces the incentive to collect and apply certain skins, which indirectly, yet significantly, affects a core principle of cosmetic-based rewards.
Some people have the time and energy to spend the dozens of hours necessary to obtain new tiers of gear. To those people, of course these changes seem minor. But many of us have full-time jobs, families, volunteer opportunities, etc. I don’t have the desire to chase artificial stat increases. After an initial investment, I want to be able to play all available content. I don’t want to have to significantly reinvest in gearing up all over again just to be able to enjoy new content.
Far from being revolutionary, the addition of new tiers will transform this from an above-average MMO to a mediocre one.
And if those new tiers of gear were locking me out of content, I’d agree with you, but that hasn’t happened yet. And I’m not convinced it ever will. This isn’t like gear treadmills in WoW or Rift or other games. This is something completely different.
People want BIS gear, because they feel they need it. Those who don’t feel they need it still beat content. So they don’t need it. This is about a percentage of people who are addicted to having BIS gear.
If you feel you have to have it, these changes are intolerable. If you don’t feel you have to have it these changes are not important. You obviously feel you have to have it. I don’t.
But it’s a myth to say that you have to have it. It’s not true. The game doesn’t force you to get ascended gear. Take your time, do the ocassionally daily and you’ll eventually get a piece. If you like fractals run them and you’ll get many pieces.
At the end of the day, I can still play WvW, SPvP, go and beat Arah, do guild missions and do all the content without ascended gear. That makes this different from other MMORPGs.
Thanks for your thoughts, Vayne. I think it’s best to agree to disagree at this stage.
Also, I’d like to apologize. Sometimes I’ve been too harsh toward you. That’s inappropriate. This is a game after all!
All the best.
“A soft answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.” -Jewish Proverb
but a harsh word stirs up anger.” -Jewish Proverb
Thanks for your thoughts, Vayne. I think it’s best to agree to disagree at this stage.
Also, I’d like to apologize. Sometimes I’ve been too harsh toward you. That’s inappropriate. This is a game after all!
All the best.
Wow, I’m floored.
Honestly I respect your views (even if it doesn’t always look like it). Like me, you’re passionate about the game, and you want to see it improve.
I think we just have different angles from which we approach the game, and the way I approach it it works for me. That’s not to say that it can’t be improved.
Perhaps there’s a compromise that could leave everyone happy.
@Vayne
Anet’s recent actions still speak volumes about the direction they are taking. I’m not turning a molehill into a mountain here. I already said many times, it’s still a molehill, and I’d prefer it does not turn into a mountain.
You probably don’t even understand what my concern is, you just generalize me as one who blames ‘vertical progression’ as a whole and one who just ‘got to have the best gear or QQ’. That’s not it. My only problem since the beginning of ascended gear is Agony Resistance and I have little concern with whatever else they have implemented in the game. It’s a lame mechanic that creates artificial challenge and gear check for group play.
Before there was agony resistance, I could group up with pretty much anybody I want to do anything in the game at 80. Somebody on LA says LFG Hotw, I’m in. Someone on guildchat says LFM Arah, count me in! AC all paths? I’ll join!
Now, there’s a small portion of the game where I can’t “just play with my friends” because of the AR mechanic, and I have a feeling that portion will grow soon. It’s irrelevant how big or small that portion is because having even a tiny portion means Anet’s already got their foot in the door.
For me, they can just remove Agony resistance, keep high level fractals more challenging (without the agony mechanic) and appropriately rewarding.
EDIT: Also, you keep insisting I’m one who is resistant to change. Well, not all change is good, and the bad ones I’m resistant to and if a change makes the experience even a tiny bit worse for me, I’ll definitely complain about it. You’re the one who made a mountain of argument over this, when my only concern is, if possible, anet should keep gear checks in the game zero, not “to a minimum”, zero.
(edited by gfox.6501)
@Vayne
Anet’s recent actions still speak volumes about the direction they are taking. I’m not turning a molehill into a mountain here. I already said many times, it’s still a molehill, and I’d prefer it does not turn into a mountain.
You probably don’t even understand what my concern is, you just generalize me as one who blames ‘vertical progression’ as a whole and one who just ‘got to have the best gear or QQ’. That’s not it. My only problem since the beginning of ascended gear is Agony Resistance and I have little concern with whatever else they have implemented in the game. It’s a lame mechanic that creates artificial challenge and gear check for group play.
Before there was agony resistance, I could group up with pretty much anybody I want to do anything in the game at 80. Somebody on LA says LFG Hotw, I’m in. Someone on guildchat says LFM Arah, count me in! AC all paths? I’ll join!
Now, there’s a small portion of the game where I can’t “just play with my friends” because of the AR mechanic, and I have a feeling that portion will grow soon. It’s irrelevant how big or small that portion is because having even a tiny portion means Anet’s already got their foot in the door.
For me, they can just remove Agony resistance, keep high level fractals more challenging (without the agony mechanic) and appropriately rewarding.
EDIT: Also, you keep insisting I’m one who is resistant to change. Well, not all change is good, and the bad ones I’m resistant to and if a change makes the experience even a tiny bit worse for me, I’ll definitely complain about it. You’re the one who made a mountain of argument over this, when my only concern is, if possible, anet should keep gear checks in the game zero, not “to a minimum”, zero.
The reason why I think it’s a mountain, is because there’s very little evidence, thus far, that it’s going to get out of control. Anet isn’t looking for gear checks, except in that one place. There are more and more ways to get ascended gear and there will be even more. I mean you can get them from dailys, fractals, guild missions…you’re not that limited any more. And dailies don’t take that long…even monthlies don’t. I got my monthly already this month, that’s 10 laurels right there.
The fractals was introduced to fill a certain need and it filled that need. I don’t see this as a trend.
@Vayne
They can remove mechanics such as Agony Resist, keep ascended gear and fractals and it would still fulfill that need for BIS you’re referring to. I’m not left out of Fractals because I don’t have BIS, I’m left out because my AR isn’t high enough. Frankly, I don’t care about BIS and have no intention of constantly chasing after it.
It’s odd you think they won’t expand on this Agony mechanic they already put in place. It won’t surprise me at all if they add new dungeons that require even higher levels of Agony Resistance.
@Vayne
Anet’s recent actions still speak volumes about the direction they are taking. I’m not turning a molehill into a mountain here. I already said many times, it’s still a molehill, and I’d prefer it does not turn into a mountain.
You probably don’t even understand what my concern is, you just generalize me as one who blames ‘vertical progression’ as a whole and one who just ‘got to have the best gear or QQ’. That’s not it. My only problem since the beginning of ascended gear is Agony Resistance and I have little concern with whatever else they have implemented in the game. It’s a lame mechanic that creates artificial challenge and gear check for group play.
Before there was agony resistance, I could group up with pretty much anybody I want to do anything in the game at 80. Somebody on LA says LFG Hotw, I’m in. Someone on guildchat says LFM Arah, count me in! AC all paths? I’ll join!
Now, there’s a small portion of the game where I can’t “just play with my friends” because of the AR mechanic, and I have a feeling that portion will grow soon. It’s irrelevant how big or small that portion is because having even a tiny portion means Anet’s already got their foot in the door.
For me, they can just remove Agony resistance, keep high level fractals more challenging (without the agony mechanic) and appropriately rewarding.
EDIT: Also, you keep insisting I’m one who is resistant to change. Well, not all change is good, and the bad ones I’m resistant to and if a change makes the experience even a tiny bit worse for me, I’ll definitely complain about it. You’re the one who made a mountain of argument over this, when my only concern is, if possible, anet should keep gear checks in the game zero, not “to a minimum”, zero.
The reason why I think it’s a mountain, is because there’s very little evidence, thus far, that it’s going to get out of control. Anet isn’t looking for gear checks, except in that one place. There are more and more ways to get ascended gear and there will be even more. I mean you can get them from dailys, fractals, guild missions…you’re not that limited any more. And dailies don’t take that long…even monthlies don’t. I got my monthly already this month, that’s 10 laurels right there.
The fractals was introduced to fill a certain need and it filled that need. I don’t see this as a trend.
Sure there are more and more ways to get Ascended gear – this implies to me that they would like me to get it.
Why? I don’t do fractals? Am I going to need it to do regular content down the road?
The fear here is mostly that Ascended gear is not the end and that we will have cap increase, more tiers etc.
As for Fractals- it served it’s purpose to keep a segment of the population happy- that could have been done completely without Ascended- it would have been the same dungeon.
If they really felt the need to add an additional mechanic in the form of Agony- they could very easily have allowed exotic gear to be infused with resistance via a Mystic Forge recipe or whatever.
The addition of Ascended and the inability to craft it so far has left the crafting disciplines as glorified leveling tools.
The lack of certain stat combinations in Ascended gear has left us with less build options.
The time gating of acquiring Ascended gear has left us the choice of deciding with character to gear, many people feel that it makes playing alts less fun.
So far to me it looks like instead of giving the game and players more options and ways to play- it does the exact opposite and creates limitations that was non-existent.
The fact that 6 months after the fact it is still so hotly debated gives me an indication that it was probably not such a great idea to begin with.
Gunnar’s Hold
@Vayne
They can remove mechanics such as Agony Resist, keep ascended gear and fractals and it would still fulfill that need for BIS you’re referring to. I’m not left out of Fractals because I don’t have BIS, I’m left out because my AR isn’t high enough. Frankly, I don’t care about BIS and have no intention of constantly chasing after it.
It’s odd you think they won’t expand on this Agony mechanic they already put in place. It won’t surprise me at all if they add new dungeons that require even higher levels of Agony Resistance.
If they expand it, they’ll make it easier to get gear for it.
When Colin was asking people about complaints, he told them to omit the slippery slope argument. I suspect there’s a reason for that.
@Vayne
They can remove mechanics such as Agony Resist, keep ascended gear and fractals and it would still fulfill that need for BIS you’re referring to. I’m not left out of Fractals because I don’t have BIS, I’m left out because my AR isn’t high enough. Frankly, I don’t care about BIS and have no intention of constantly chasing after it.
It’s odd you think they won’t expand on this Agony mechanic they already put in place. It won’t surprise me at all if they add new dungeons that require even higher levels of Agony Resistance.
If they expand it, they’ll make it easier to get gear for it.
When Colin was asking people about complaints, he told them to omit the slippery slope argument. I suspect there’s a reason for that.
Then it accomplishes nothing for the people it’s trying to cater to if they make it easy to get.
@Vayne
They can remove mechanics such as Agony Resist, keep ascended gear and fractals and it would still fulfill that need for BIS you’re referring to. I’m not left out of Fractals because I don’t have BIS, I’m left out because my AR isn’t high enough. Frankly, I don’t care about BIS and have no intention of constantly chasing after it.
It’s odd you think they won’t expand on this Agony mechanic they already put in place. It won’t surprise me at all if they add new dungeons that require even higher levels of Agony Resistance.
If they expand it, they’ll make it easier to get gear for it.
When Colin was asking people about complaints, he told them to omit the slippery slope argument. I suspect there’s a reason for that.
Then it accomplishes nothing for the people it’s trying to cater to if they make it easy to get.
You’re reaching here.
It was made the way it was for a point in time. That’s it. And during this point in time, it’s served it’s purpose. Look at my argument again.
People had nothing to do, until such time as Anet was able to add more stuff. As they add more stuff, they won’t need it as much and they’ll make it easier to get. Guild Wars 1 did the same thing and every MMO I’ve ever played has variations on the same thing.
In the future, they won’t need to make this hard to get, because in the future they’ll have something else that’s hard to get. That’s the nature of MMOs. It’s not likely to change any time soon.
Ascended gear feels like WoW releasing more gear with each expansion and making the old one obsolete…
Where is the GW1 feeling…? Is this game going to take the WoW way and not the GW way
Yeah where is the GW1 feelings? Grinding up titles so your skills become stronger I really miss that!
GuildWars 2
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
Ascended gear feels like WoW releasing more gear with each expansion and making the old one obsolete…
Where is the GW1 feeling…? Is this game going to take the WoW way and not the GW way
Yeah where is the GW1 feelings? Grinding up titles so your skills become stronger I really miss that!
I remember grinding out luxon points in Guild Wars 1 so I could actually make “Save Yourselves!” useful as a paragon. And grinding Asuran points for technobabble and pain inverter. And grinding sunspear points for necrosis.
Then there were people who with RNG farmed voltaic spears and frog scepters and all sorts of stuff.
How fast people forget.
@Vayne
They can remove mechanics such as Agony Resist, keep ascended gear and fractals and it would still fulfill that need for BIS you’re referring to. I’m not left out of Fractals because I don’t have BIS, I’m left out because my AR isn’t high enough. Frankly, I don’t care about BIS and have no intention of constantly chasing after it.
It’s odd you think they won’t expand on this Agony mechanic they already put in place. It won’t surprise me at all if they add new dungeons that require even higher levels of Agony Resistance.
If they expand it, they’ll make it easier to get gear for it.
When Colin was asking people about complaints, he told them to omit the slippery slope argument. I suspect there’s a reason for that.
Then it accomplishes nothing for the people it’s trying to cater to if they make it easy to get.
You’re reaching here.
It was made the way it was for a point in time. That’s it. And during this point in time, it’s served it’s purpose. Look at my argument again.
People had nothing to do, until such time as Anet was able to add more stuff. As they add more stuff, they won’t need it as much and they’ll make it easier to get. Guild Wars 1 did the same thing and every MMO I’ve ever played has variations on the same thing.
In the future, they won’t need to make this hard to get, because in the future they’ll have something else that’s hard to get. That’s the nature of MMOs. It’s not likely to change any time soon.
Sure, people had nothing to do, so new content isn’t enough? Just Fractals isn’t enough? What’s the relevance of agony resistance to address the lack of things to do? what’s the relevance of higher tiered gear?
EDIT: you know what, let’s just leave BiS ascended gear out of it, as it is apparent many people want their rewards, and that’s fine by me. I’m purely focused on the gear check mechanic Agony resistance.
(edited by gfox.6501)
@Vayne
They can remove mechanics such as Agony Resist, keep ascended gear and fractals and it would still fulfill that need for BIS you’re referring to. I’m not left out of Fractals because I don’t have BIS, I’m left out because my AR isn’t high enough. Frankly, I don’t care about BIS and have no intention of constantly chasing after it.
It’s odd you think they won’t expand on this Agony mechanic they already put in place. It won’t surprise me at all if they add new dungeons that require even higher levels of Agony Resistance.
If they expand it, they’ll make it easier to get gear for it.
When Colin was asking people about complaints, he told them to omit the slippery slope argument. I suspect there’s a reason for that.
Then it accomplishes nothing for the people it’s trying to cater to if they make it easy to get.
You’re reaching here.
It was made the way it was for a point in time. That’s it. And during this point in time, it’s served it’s purpose. Look at my argument again.
People had nothing to do, until such time as Anet was able to add more stuff. As they add more stuff, they won’t need it as much and they’ll make it easier to get. Guild Wars 1 did the same thing and every MMO I’ve ever played has variations on the same thing.
In the future, they won’t need to make this hard to get, because in the future they’ll have something else that’s hard to get. That’s the nature of MMOs. It’s not likely to change any time soon.
Sure, people had nothing to do, so new content isn’t enough? Just Fractals isn’t enough? What’s the relevance of agony resistance to address the lack of things to do? what’s the relevance of higher tiered gear?
It’s all about slowing down progress. I’ve said this before in other threads, but I’m happy to say it again here.
There is only X amount of content in any game. In sandbox MMOs (which Guild Wars 2 is not) people make their own content and that’s great. In theme park MMOs, companies have to create content and no company can keep up with demand. It’s not possible. So they find ways to slow people down.
RNG is one way, lockouts, as were done in WoW and Rift are another way. You can try a raid once per week, but if you fail, or even if you succeed you can’t try it again till the next week. And since the gear you need to have drop for you needs to be rolled on, even if it does drop you’re not guaranteed to get it. So you have to log in next week.
Anet introduced the fractals to slow people down. You can get fractal tokens but only once per day so people spend time every day doing their fractal daily. They’re trying for specific rings. They got tokens too, so in ten days time they can have the ring they want..one that most closely matches their build. But if they want a second ring and it doesn’t happen to drop for them, they have to play dailies for another ten days. This slows people down.
Because there will NEVER be enough content for the content locusts in ANY MMO.
Guild Wars didn’t slow people down enough with dungeon DR, so people got all the tokens they ever needed. By creating a more or less open ended experience, like the fractals, Anet may well have saved the game, in spite of the number of people who left over it, or the number of people who are annoyed now. It was a stop gap measure and it seems to have done the trick.
Ascended gear feels like WoW releasing more gear with each expansion and making the old one obsolete…
Where is the GW1 feeling…? Is this game going to take the WoW way and not the GW way
Yeah where is the GW1 feelings? Grinding up titles so your skills become stronger I really miss that!
I remember grinding out luxon points in Guild Wars 1 so I could actually make “Save Yourselves!” useful as a paragon. And grinding Asuran points for technobabble and pain inverter. And grinding sunspear points for necrosis.
Then there were people who with RNG farmed voltaic spears and frog scepters and all sorts of stuff.
How fast people forget.
The necessarity for grind in GW1 was a little bit more subtle I guess. Especially when you look back to prophecies and pvp. Sure you could make yourself a premade with max armor etc but you were still lacking certain stat-combinations like +10 armor vs dmg x, those turned out to be pretty important and the only way you could obtain them was by pure luck.
GuildWars 2
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
Ascended gear feels like WoW releasing more gear with each expansion and making the old one obsolete…
Where is the GW1 feeling…? Is this game going to take the WoW way and not the GW way
Yeah where is the GW1 feelings? Grinding up titles so your skills become stronger I really miss that!
I remember grinding out luxon points in Guild Wars 1 so I could actually make “Save Yourselves!” useful as a paragon. And grinding Asuran points for technobabble and pain inverter. And grinding sunspear points for necrosis.
Then there were people who with RNG farmed voltaic spears and frog scepters and all sorts of stuff.
How fast people forget.
The necessarity for grind in GW1 was a little bit more subtle I guess. Especially when you look back to prophecies and pvp. Sure you could make yourself a premade with max armor etc but you were still lacking certain stat-combinations like +10 armor vs dmg x, those turned out to be pretty important and the only way you could obtain them was by pure luck.
I didn’t know that about PvP…I did very little PvP in Guild Wars 1. Probably mostly Jade Quarry and Alliance battles, some random arenas, but nothing like GvG.
Because there will NEVER be enough content for the content locusts in ANY MMO.
Guild Wars didn’t slow people down enough with dungeon DR, so people got all the tokens they ever needed. By creating a more or less open ended experience, like the fractals, Anet may well have saved the game, in spite of the number of people who left over it, or the number of people who are annoyed now. It was a stop gap measure and it seems to have done the trick.
Yes that was the purpose of Fractals and it served it’s purpose and would have done so without the addition of Ascended gear.
People didn’t leave back in Nov because Anet introduced a new dungeon- they left because Anet introduced another gear Tier.
Ascended gear caused more problems than it ever solved
Gunnar’s Hold
@Vayne
I don’t care about DR or laurels, BiS or RnG. I’ve said many times, people can have all the nice shinies they want, it won’t detract from my experience. I don’t know why you keep coming back to that, when that’s never my point this whole time.
I didn’t specifically refer to “Agony Resistance” at the start of this discussion because I wanted to refer to ‘gear checks’ in general (which in the future can mean even higher tiers of gear). You then proceeded to talk about BiS, and Vertical Progression, and Ascended gear and how to acquire them and how they are validated when my concern lies solely on ‘gear checks’.
You’re right, if we talk about BiS, RnG, DR, Ascended gear, there’s no gear checks, but then I’m not talking about those things am I? Agony Resistance is the current in-game gear check, and if possible, Anet should at least rethink or refine it so it isn’t like that.
Because there will NEVER be enough content for the content locusts in ANY MMO.
Guild Wars didn’t slow people down enough with dungeon DR, so people got all the tokens they ever needed. By creating a more or less open ended experience, like the fractals, Anet may well have saved the game, in spite of the number of people who left over it, or the number of people who are annoyed now. It was a stop gap measure and it seems to have done the trick.
Yes that was the purpose of Fractals and it served it’s purpose and would have done so without the addition of Ascended gear.
People didn’t leave back in Nov because Anet introduced a new dungeon- they left because Anet introduced another gear Tier.
Ascended gear caused more problems than it ever solved
Except the Gfox isn’t complaining about the stats. He’s complaining about the agony mechanic.
The stats were put in for another reason. There are many MANY people who simply won’t go after something if they don’t get a higher number out of it. You aren’t like that, and I’m not like that, but too many people are. That’s the sad, sad truth.
@Vayne
I don’t care about DR or laurels, BiS or RnG. I’ve said many times, people can have all the nice shinies they want, it won’t detract from my experience. I don’t know why you keep coming back to that, when that’s never my point this whole time.
I didn’t specifically refer to “Agony Resistance” at the start of this discussion because I wanted to refer to ‘gear checks’ in general (which in the future can mean even higher tiers of gear). You then proceeded to talk about BiS, and Vertical Progression, and Ascended gear and how to acquire them and how they are validated when my concern lies solely on ‘gear checks’.
You’re right, if we talk about BiS, RnG, DR, Ascended gear, there’s no gear checks, but then I’m not talking about those things am I? Agony Resistance is the current in-game gear check, and if possible, Anet should at least rethink or refine it so it isn’t like that.
Agony resistance though, was the whole point of the exercise. I understand now why you’re upset but the stat upgrade was something else. The agony resistance was still required for the fractals. Why?
Because even after you get the BIS gear you want, the levels of resistence you need to get add far more time to the equation. The further you go in fractals, the more you have to upgrade your equipment even more.
In other words, the stats, by themselves, didn’t do the trick for some people and the agony, by itself, didn’t do the trick for others. The combination of the two, however has kept players playing for a long long time.
If that wasn’t the case, you wouldn’t be feeling left out now by your guild. You’re feeling left out because what Anet did WORKED. You’re living proof.
If it didn’t work, your guild wouldn’t be running it at all.
@Vayne
I don’t care about DR or laurels, BiS or RnG. I’ve said many times, people can have all the nice shinies they want, it won’t detract from my experience. I don’t know why you keep coming back to that, when that’s never my point this whole time.
I didn’t specifically refer to “Agony Resistance” at the start of this discussion because I wanted to refer to ‘gear checks’ in general (which in the future can mean even higher tiers of gear). You then proceeded to talk about BiS, and Vertical Progression, and Ascended gear and how to acquire them and how they are validated when my concern lies solely on ‘gear checks’.
You’re right, if we talk about BiS, RnG, DR, Ascended gear, there’s no gear checks, but then I’m not talking about those things am I? Agony Resistance is the current in-game gear check, and if possible, Anet should at least rethink or refine it so it isn’t like that.
Agony resistance though, was the whole point of the exercise. I understand now why you’re upset but the stat upgrade was something else. The agony resistance was still required for the fractals. Why?
Because even after you get the BIS gear you want, the levels of resistence you need to get add far more time to the equation. The further you go in fractals, the more you have to upgrade your equipment even more.
In other words, the stats, by themselves, didn’t do the trick for some people and the agony, by itself, didn’t do the trick for others. The combination of the two, however has kept players playing for a long long time.
If that wasn’t the case, you wouldn’t be feeling left out now by your guild. You’re feeling left out because what Anet did WORKED. You’re living proof.
If it didn’t work, your guild wouldn’t be running it at all.
If high level fotm is still some of the hardest PvE you can do and maybe appropriately rewarding for the effort, my friends would still run it, with or without agony mechanic in place. The only difference is, I get to join them right off the bat after I took a break.
@Vayne
I don’t care about DR or laurels, BiS or RnG. I’ve said many times, people can have all the nice shinies they want, it won’t detract from my experience. I don’t know why you keep coming back to that, when that’s never my point this whole time.
I didn’t specifically refer to “Agony Resistance” at the start of this discussion because I wanted to refer to ‘gear checks’ in general (which in the future can mean even higher tiers of gear). You then proceeded to talk about BiS, and Vertical Progression, and Ascended gear and how to acquire them and how they are validated when my concern lies solely on ‘gear checks’.
You’re right, if we talk about BiS, RnG, DR, Ascended gear, there’s no gear checks, but then I’m not talking about those things am I? Agony Resistance is the current in-game gear check, and if possible, Anet should at least rethink or refine it so it isn’t like that.
Agony resistance though, was the whole point of the exercise. I understand now why you’re upset but the stat upgrade was something else. The agony resistance was still required for the fractals. Why?
Because even after you get the BIS gear you want, the levels of resistence you need to get add far more time to the equation. The further you go in fractals, the more you have to upgrade your equipment even more.
In other words, the stats, by themselves, didn’t do the trick for some people and the agony, by itself, didn’t do the trick for others. The combination of the two, however has kept players playing for a long long time.
If that wasn’t the case, you wouldn’t be feeling left out now by your guild. You’re feeling left out because what Anet did WORKED. You’re living proof.
If it didn’t work, your guild wouldn’t be running it at all.
If high level fotm is still some of the hardest PvE you can do and maybe appropriately rewarding for the effort, my friends would still run it, with or without agony mechanic in place. The only difference is, I get to join them right off the bat after I took a break.
But we’re not really talking about “your friends”. People play for different reasons. There were reasons for certain people to play already…people like me. There were no reasons for other people to play.
The biggest dynamic of people who weren’t being catered to, were people who liked to grind. Not farm…grind.
Anet introduced something that appealed to them. And you know, as much as people claim that the hardest content gets done without specific rewards, we know from other games that very very few people do the hardest content if it’s not rewarding. In other words, rewards have to equal time.
Anet has to balance giving people too much reward for the effort input (they failed in this in CoF path 1).
In other MMOs, people raid for different reasons. Some raid for the difficulty but when raids were really difficult, only 5% of the population ever saw that content. That’s a quote from a WoW dev. Only when they made raids easier did people actually start doing them. And they did them for rewards, not challenge.
A very small percentage of people PVe for challenge. This has been shown again and again. A lot of people PVe just to relax or enjoy themselves, or for social reasons or to bum around the world.
Anet needed to make Fractals challenging for the small percentage of people who like that, and they had to make it profitable in the sense of stats for the people who liked that. Furthermore, they had to put in agony to make the stuff hard to upgrade, so it would take forever, so you could progress, because that was sort of the point of the whole thing. Hold on to those players.
I feel sad that you’re not able to play with your guildies. You may not get that, but it’s true. I do feel bad for you.
But it doesn’t change the fact that Anet had reasons for making these changes that seem to have worked.
@Vayne
Well, to me, Ascended gear would have been enough reward for players doing fractals looking for rewards, plus the appeal/prestige of running and beating challenging high level fractals.
You could consider me part of that small 5% who enjoy very challenging and unforgiving pve content. I did it in WoW, I tolerated farming for gear, Fire resistance, shadow resistance, etc. just to experience the ‘toughest’ parts of PvE. When GW2 was announced with “Explorable Mode” being the toughest parts of PvE, made to cater to players like me, with the added bonus of no gear checks required to participate, I was beyond happy.
I want to participate in very difficult content, but I’m no longer that guy who can tolerate doing mundane, repetitive tasks to participate in the most difficult content the game has to offer (or worse, do whatever I want, but wait for the slow trickle of laurels to afford me some AR). Right now, I know I’m fully capable of running high level fractal, if not only for my lack of AR. I still run with friends through other dungeons, and our group play is still very tight, and explorable still very easy, regardless of our composition or builds, and we deliberately kitten ourselves for lols and extra challenge. I don’t see how it’s going to be different with Fractals, except for AR. AR isn’t there for challenge, it’s there for gating, and I don’t think it should be gating content like that.
Truth is, it’s probably pointless for me to argue about this, anymore. By the time I have sufficient AR, just from those random days my dailies gets done, my friends would be bored to death of Fractals.
@Vayne
Well, to me, Ascended gear would have been enough reward for players doing fractals looking for rewards, plus the appeal/prestige of running and beating challenging high level fractals.
You could consider me part of that small 5% who enjoy very challenging and unforgiving pve content. I did it in WoW, I tolerated farming for gear, Fire resistance, shadow resistance, etc. just to experience the ‘toughest’ parts of PvE. When GW2 was announced with “Explorable Mode” being the toughest parts of PvE, made to cater to players like me, with the added bonus of no gear checks required to participate, I was beyond happy.
I want to participate in very difficult content, but I’m no longer that guy who can tolerate doing mundane, repetitive tasks to participate in the most difficult content the game has to offer (or worse, do whatever I want, but wait for the slow trickle of laurels to afford me some AR). Right now, I know I’m fully capable of running high level fractal, if not only for my lack of AR. I still run with friends through other dungeons, and our group play is still very tight, and explorable still very easy, regardless of our composition or builds, and we deliberately kitten ourselves for lols and extra challenge. I don’t see how it’s going to be different with Fractals, except for AR. AR isn’t there for challenge, it’s there for gating, and I don’t think it should be gating content like that.
Truth is, it’s probably pointless for me to argue about this, anymore. By the time I have sufficient AR, just from those random days my dailies gets done, my friends would be bored to death of Fractals.
It’s because you’re in that 5% that you don’t get why Anet had to do what they had to do. This wasn’t personally to inconvenience you. It was a business decision that affected the game on a pretty deep level.
I mean on the surface, Anet had every reason NOT to do this. They kitten off much of their core fan base, which is always a bad idea, they caused a schism in the game and the forums, which isn’t often a good idea, and in general, it’s kept this community divided to this day.
So with all this working against the idea, they must have had some pretty strong reasons for doing it.
Couldn’t someone ask their friends and guildies to run lower level Fractals, maybe once a day, just for the ‘lols’ and being helpful, and help out their guildmates get the useful AR resistance gear? I know it isn’t the ideal way of solving a problem, but lots of times guilds help out their guildmates with such things. Then, in a period of time, no one would have to feel left out. =)
Couldn’t someone ask their friends and guildies to run lower level Fractals, maybe once a day, just for the ‘lols’ and being helpful, and help out their guildmates get the useful AR resistance gear? I know it isn’t the ideal way of solving a problem, but lots of times guilds help out their guildmates with such things. Then, in a period of time, no one would have to feel left out. =)
Oh of course. I’ve gotten up to fractals 12 only, but I’ve been more busy with WvW and sPvP, lately.
It’s not about whether I can get AR gear or not, it’s more like, say, my friends help me out with getting AR gear, so we run, say, fotm 10 for the day. After that, they decide they’re gonna do Fotm 40. Ideally, I’d like to be able to join them, but, unfortunately, I can’t. You may not see a problem in that and think it’s okay, but not to me.
I didn’t like the addition of ascended gear simply because of the precedent it sets. I don’t want an ever climbing gear treadmill. I want to get BiS gear in the ‘look’ I want, and then have the option to hunt additional ‘looks’ as I so choose. Just like in GW1. I do not want to ‘feel’ like I need to keep climbing the gear tree to stay on par with those around me.
I can believe that ascended was always intended, but didn’t get implemented at launch. Just like guild halls are intended, but didn’t make it in at launch.
Honestly, I think GW2 launched too soon. They have so much that needs to be done still, and so much that they have done in the 9 months they’ve been out. If they’d just waited another 6 months to a year before launch, I think it would have gone smoother for them.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the game. I’ve said so many times, but I’d have been willing to wait (impatiently) for them to do some more polishing before release. As it is, I’m still willing to play the ‘wait and see’ game to see how the game really turns out. At this point I’m just hoping they don’t turn it into another wow gear-fest.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
anyone else just enjoy getting on their character after a long day and roflstomping peoples faces? I think this game has the coolest looking armor and weps of any ive played so far, if they add more ill just have to get that too.
For me what needs to happen for the future is for Anet to cut their losses on this front. Accept that they performed an act of betrayal with ascended gear, declare they won’t do the like again and simply phase exotic gear out all together. Add craft/dungeon/karma ascended armour with reasonable requirements, not bloody guild commendations and give us two options for them. A specific ascended set with its own aesthetic and also a corresponding stat equivalent consumable that acts like one of these gem store weapon skins except ascends your item. They give us something to aim for that is similar in difficulty to our exotics were, we get to keep our appearance that we have meticulously designed up till now and they can draw a line under this blunder.
Expansions should add zones, races, classes, new skills, new traits, weapon types, new PvP modes, new dungeons, new story lines but absolutely not raised level caps or new armour tiers. They are utterly pointless. Stick to your manifesto Anet.
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