Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

SkiTz.4590:

Vayne.8563:

hazenvirus.8154:

cesmode.4257:

Belenwyn.8674:

cesmode.4257:

As a sort of former player(not playing with any intentions of getting back into it anytime soon, but possibly in the future)…. I firmly believe that this company has no sense of what it wants to achieve. They want to be an industry leader with more content patches than any other game. Yet, the amount of content, new perma content, in the game is abysmally low.

Yes, with an expansion you may get a load of content all at once, and then nothing for maybe 6months to a year before a large content patch…. but its REAL meaty content. Its dungeons, skills, classes, races, story, zones, perma stuff. I know Anet is working toward more perma stuff, but for 2 years its been very temporary, no new dungeons if you exclude fractals (which isnt for everyone), two new zones(one abandoned in southshore and one that is being released incrementally), no new skills(don’t talk to me about the one or two silly healing skills that have no impact on my builds), no new races or classes, and a breadcrumb-like story.

Yeah, Id rather have that expansion now. I pay 60 bucks for it.

Where does this unlimited confidence come from that an expansion would be so much better and would satisfy all desires? An expansion would simply be the sum of all episodes of season 2 plus a feature pack of unknown size. If Arenanet is not able to deliver meaty stuff step by step, they are for sure not able the deliver it in one big batch. These are the same people. Simply casting the word “expansion” as a magical formula will not transform the employees in other persons in a magical way.

I would be able to play the expansion all at once for several weeks or a couple of months straight if I wanted. Fully immersed and excited in the game. After im done with that expansion content, I’ll either do what I would do now, or take a break. In its current form, I would play LS for a day or two, and then wait around until the next one.

At least the content would have some cohesiveness to it. All together, nicely nit and sewn…not sprinkled across a year like bread crumbs. “oh yah this happened in the story 3.5 months ago…”

Yeah! Imagine trying to read A Song of Fire and Ice if Martin released one chapter every three months. I have to read over the books now before the next to make sure I recall everything, but at least I can really dig into it when it is out. Right now that is what Living Story is only worse, more like a couple pages from a poorly written chapter. The method of delivery is such that I’ve never felt attached to the living story to the point that it feels like a chore to even try and pay attention. I honestly can’t wait for living story events to end when they are released.

But this isn’t Song of Fire and Ice and it’s not one chapter every three months it’s a chapter every two weeks. Obviously you’ve never heard of serials before like Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers.

What we’re playing is the MMO equivalent of a serial. It’s actually being made to be delivered in chapters. That’s the whole point of these cliffhangers.

This is an MMO, not a story book.
If I want to be immersed in a story , there are plenty of other games that have great stories and incredibly immersive (witcher series, dark souls, etc etc)
I play an MMO because I want to group up with my friends and do fun, challenging content with a sense of accomplishment and reward. LS does not do this.
Everything added so far is just a lame cheesy story that I could care less about along with some new zones with some world events….
Where is any kind of new instanced content where I can group up with friends and tackle it? None of these world events are even as good as previous LS1 zerg events (like marionette or the knights in LA destruction)

Now I will say this is too early to judge.. but right now, theres nothing that “wows” me (the zones do look nice…but everything looks nice in this game). When actual content arrives, let me know…until then enjoy the bi-weekly cheesy story, zergfest events, tooltip updates and new gemstore skins …

Sorry you don’t like the story. I do. Other people do. This season has much better story telling than season 1. And I didn’t particularly mind season one.

Are you saying you can’t enjoy a story with friends? I don’t believe that. I want a story focuses MMO for once.

I got nothing against the story but if thats all they add? thats the problem I have…
and dude, the story last for a few hours at most….there’s nothing stopping anet from adding a good story along with some type of instanced dung path/event to go along with the story.. thats all I’m saying… theres plenty of world events in this game already… not enough instanced content

cesmode.4257:

Vayne.8563:

Stark.1350:

This entire thread reminds me of the end of Pirates of the Caribbean. “Two immortals locked forever in combat.”

I see the same people, day in and day out, arguing back and forth over subjective opinions that can neither be proven factually true or false.

Give it a break. You either like the game or you don’t. I enjoy the game a great deal. To you naysayers, it’s unfortunate that you don’t. That’s all there is to it.

You said it better than I did. lol

Hes talking about me, I assume, but also about you.

:)

Oh I’m aware who he’s talking about. I’d never try to change your mind about how you feel about the game. That would be ridiculous. When I argue with you, I’m showing lurkers that there’s another point of view, so they can make up their own mind.

You wouldn’t believe the percentage of people who read forums and just accept what they see. Without seeing the counterpoint, some people will believe.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Meta isn’t “everyone”. Never has been. Even during the ursan hype people happily played the game with viable builds that did not include it. Facts..Not “everyone” had EoTN. Not “everyone” with EoTN had the rank to use it. Nobody in PvP used it.. they couldn’t.

“Everyone” didn’t use it, or feel compelled to. It got nerfed because it was OP.

As a data point, I fall into this category. I had EoTN and the rank but never used Ursan. But I was never much into the speed clear thing in general either.

Not everything said is an opinion, some are facts.
Some facts:
More than 6.5 million copies sold within 4 years (not so niche for the past standards).
Discovered map in Gw (April 2005 – October 2006).
10 professions.
More than 1319 skills (useful or not is an opinion) each profession could have access to.
Cheap (basic) Guild Hall for everyone.
Horizontal progression with low level cap.
In game store: 10 items (from mercenaries to name changing contract) + 17 costumes (~6.5% of the armor models, male and female merged together).
Free random minipets for the birthday of each of your characters.
Pokémon on steroids

Erick Alastor.3917:

Not everything said is an opinion, some are facts.
Some facts:
More than 6.5 million copies sold within 4 years (not so niche for the past standards).
Discovered map in Gw (April 2005 – October 2006).
10 professions.
More than 1319 skills (useful or not is an opinion) each profession could have access to.
Cheap (basic) Guild Hall for everyone.
Horizontal progression with low level cap.
In game store: 10 items (from mercenaries to name changing contract) + 17 costumes (~6.5% of the armor models, male and female merged together).
Free random minipets for the birthday of each of your characters.
Pokémon on steroids

So facts are more equal than others. Let’s take a look at that sales number. 6.5 million copies. Of all games combined? Of each game. It’s not 6.5 million sales of Propechies. So between my wife and I we have 5 complete accounts. Is that 15 of those 6.5 million sales. Just about everyone in my guild had multiple accounts of multiple games.

Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have 6.5 million sales. It only has maybe 4 million (if that). If an expansion comes out, I wonder if it will hit that 6.5 million mark well before Guild Wars 1 did.

There are also some more facts. No auction house or market place. If you wanted to sell something you went to a vendor or you stood around in Kamadan hawking your wares.

There are less quests in all Guild Wars 1 products put together than there were dynamic events in Guild Wars 2 at launch. You can easy make that tally by looking up each product on the Guild Wars wiki and adding up the number of quests per game, including Eye of the North.

Guild Wars 1 never had five starting areas, and you could only play a human.

Different strokes for different folks. I liked both games, for completely different reasons.

For example there were no jumping puzzles in Guild Wars 1 at all…and I enjoy those immensely.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Not everything said is an opinion, some are facts.
Some facts:
More than 6.5 million copies sold within 4 years (not so niche for the past standards).
Discovered map in Gw (April 2005 – October 2006).
10 professions.
More than 1319 skills (useful or not is an opinion) each profession could have access to.
Cheap (basic) Guild Hall for everyone.
Horizontal progression with low level cap.
In game store: 10 items (from mercenaries to name changing contract) + 17 costumes (~6.5% of the armor models, male and female merged together).
Free random minipets for the birthday of each of your characters.
Pokémon on steroids

I look at this not as a comparison of GW to GW2, but pointing out that GW was far from the limited success, minor niche game some seem to dismiss it as.

It launched shortly after WoW and tbh, those numbers in that period of WoW domination are pretty impressive. GW proved that you could be “different” and succeed even if the genre largely ignored the lesson.

What i fear is not the lack of expansions and other things. What i fear is the NA and EUR players becoming second rated citizens now that the Chinese market is opened. See monkey king tonic, new back piece hidden behind jumping through fiery loops to get it, while previous back pieces were easier to get, because Chinese players lik that kind of overly complicated stuff and, of course, Chinese decorations at the cliff, when we never got the DR Canthan District.

Lévis.5489:

What i fear is not the lack of expansions and other things. What i fear is the NA and EUR players becoming second rated citizens now that the Chinese market is opened. See monkey king tonic, new back piece hidden behind jumping through fiery loops to get it, while previous back pieces were easier to get, because Chinese players lik that kind of overly complicated stuff and, of course, Chinese decorations at the cliff, when we never got the DR Canthan District.

Don’t forget we got dragons in the game .. just because chinese people love dragons.

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Thanks Ashen for sparing me the trouble.
+1

Notice when he said I was making stuff up and I asked for an example he couldn’t furnish one. Nuff said.

That wasn’t a rhetorical question ?

I quoted at least one example in a post to which you replied.

Vayne.8563:

If you can’t furnish info where I’m making stuff up, some would call that slander.

And your, “some,” would be wrong.

Remember I furnished an example to support the point at the time I made it…before you asked.

Vayne.8563:

Anet nerfed it due to complaints about everyone requiring R8 ursan, and that is a fact.

I was under the impression that it was nerfed because it was OP. After all not everyone was running or requiring R8 Ursan.

davadude.6017:

Ashen.2907:

Were Ursan and PI popular skills ? Of course they were, but claiming that everyone used or relied on them is ludicrous.

No, its evident now you were not active in GW1 during that time. Ursan Blessing was used everywhere, from DoA to FoW/UW, all the way to solo elite mission clears. Other metas at the time, such kitten, almost went defunct.

I never claimed that Ursan was not used everywhere.

My claim regarding Ursan was that not everyone used/relied on it. That is a fact and was posted solely to counter a claim by another poster that every player used and/or relied on it.

Ashen.2907:

My claim regarding Ursan was that not everyone used/relied on it. That is a fact and was posted solely to counter a claim by another poster that every player used and/or relied on it.

Doesn’t it get old at some point to (mostly) always (imho) start the same discussions
about words like “all” ,“everyone”, “always” and so on because (mostly) everyone (imho)
know that this normally (imho) means something like “mostly everyone imho” even without
those disclaimers.

Or is it better to use a disclaimer legend like that in every single post ?
1. always always means “most of the time”
2. all and everyone means “a very large part / the majority (imho) of a given group”

Beldin.5498:

Ashen.2907:

My claim regarding Ursan was that not everyone used/relied on it. That is a fact and was posted solely to counter a claim by another poster that every player used and/or relied on it.

Doesn’t it get old at some point to (mostly) always (imho) start the same discussions
about words like “all” ,“everyone”, “always” and so on because (mostly) everyone (imho)
know that this normally (imho) means something like “mostly everyone imho” even without
those disclaimers.

Or is it better to use a disclaimer legend like that in every single post ?
1. always always means “most of the time”
2. all and everyone means “a very large part / the majority (imho) of a given group”

What gets old is people attempting to strengthen their position by claiming that, “everyone,” does as they say or agrees with them or likes what they like, and so on in order to discredit others who have a differing opinion, or to distort the facts of the matter at hand.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

I look at this not as a comparison of GW to GW2, but pointing out that GW was far from the limited success, minor niche game some seem to dismiss it as.

It launched shortly after WoW and tbh, those numbers in that period of WoW domination are pretty impressive. GW proved that you could be “different” and succeed even if the genre largely ignored the lesson.

GW made in it’s reported life, 7 years and change, according to NCSOFT, is roughly 200 billion KrW.

GW2 made that in it’s first 7 months, 110 billion KrW in the last 12 months.

In terms of income, GW was a limited success.

Comparing to other NCSOFT properties.

Lineage made over 260 billion KrW in the last twelve months.

Aion made 90 billion KrW in the last twelve months.

Blade & Soul made (excluding China) made 70 billion in the last twelve months.

Taygus.4571:

How about you log in once every 2 weeks, but DON’T play the content, do this for 1 year. It should feel like an expansion then.

Except it isn’t an expansion..

Take the entire cycle of LS season 1 and compare that to a general expansion, they are incomparable. It would probably take 10+ LS seasons to even scrape the bottom of the barrel of what can be considered an expansion.

Season 1 had jumping puzzles, dungeons, sab, queens gauntlet, and world bosses. Season 2 so far has been nothing but a bunch of single player instanced 30 minute stories (that dont even provide a reward other than greens) along with 1/4th of a map and you autists just eat it up.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Taygus.4571:

How about you log in once every 2 weeks, but DON’T play the content, do this for 1 year. It should feel like an expansion then.

Except it isn’t an expansion..

Take the entire cycle of LS season 1 and compare that to a general expansion, they are incomparable. It would probably take 10+ LS seasons to even scrape the bottom of the barrel of what can be considered an expansion.

I get as much out of the LS as I’d have from an expansion. It’s not the amount of content we’re talking about. It’s the fact that it was a) temporary and b) didn’t including things like new professions/skills/races/areas.

Are you seriously telling me that if the LIving World added new races/professions/skills and areas, and the content remained permanent, it wouldn’t have as much content as an expansion?

The first season was an experiment to see what worked and what didn’t work. Anet said this, not me. Now that they know and the journal is in place, they can come out with the types of content traditionally found in an expansion.

But I’ll tell you this much. I got more out of having new content every two weeks than I would have if I had a single expansion to play through. Different strokes for different folks.

Ace.3816:

Season 1 had jumping puzzles, dungeons, sab, queens gauntlet, and world bosses. Season 2 so far has been nothing but a bunch of single player instanced 30 minute stories (that dont even provide a reward other than greens) along with 1/4th of a map and you autists just eat it up.

But we’re exploring part of a new zone as Season 2 with new dynamic events, new rewards, new mechanics, better AI, harder and new enemies.

If you discount the new zone and everything else in it, and only focus on the instances, well, then you’re be right. Except I spent much less time in those instances and lots of people seem to enjoy the zone.

For everyone that complains about “instancing” please think about what WoW usually gives you in an update; Raids. Now add up the amount of time spent in an Instance in the LS2 and compare it to the amount of time spent in a Raid. For the “Hard-core” player probably 3-4 hrs a day for a few weeks to get ALL the achieves vs 3-4 hrs a day for a few weeks to “finish” a Raid. Same could be said for a “casual” player except in a Raid they’d spend more time because of “requirements”.

I think that the LS has a lot of potential. I think that there would be just as many complaints, valid ones too, now if Anet had gone with an expansion model instead of the LS.

Ashen.2907:

Beldin.5498:

Ashen.2907:

My claim regarding Ursan was that not everyone used/relied on it. That is a fact and was posted solely to counter a claim by another poster that every player used and/or relied on it.

Doesn’t it get old at some point to (mostly) always (imho) start the same discussions
about words like “all” ,“everyone”, “always” and so on because (mostly) everyone (imho)
know that this normally (imho) means something like “mostly everyone imho” even without
those disclaimers.

Or is it better to use a disclaimer legend like that in every single post ?
1. always always means “most of the time”
2. all and everyone means “a very large part / the majority (imho) of a given group”

What gets old is people attempting to strengthen their position by claiming that, “everyone,” does as they say or agrees with them or likes what they like, and so on in order to discredit others who have a differing opinion, or to distort the facts of the matter at hand.

+1

Vayne.8563:

Different strokes for different folks.

And GW2 is virtually the opposite of that.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Ashen.2907:

Beldin.5498:

Ashen.2907:

My claim regarding Ursan was that not everyone used/relied on it. That is a fact and was posted solely to counter a claim by another poster that every player used and/or relied on it.

Doesn’t it get old at some point to (mostly) always (imho) start the same discussions
about words like “all” ,“everyone”, “always” and so on because (mostly) everyone (imho)
know that this normally (imho) means something like “mostly everyone imho” even without
those disclaimers.

Or is it better to use a disclaimer legend like that in every single post ?
1. always always means “most of the time”
2. all and everyone means “a very large part / the majority (imho) of a given group”

What gets old is people attempting to strengthen their position by claiming that, “everyone,” does as they say or agrees with them or likes what they like, and so on in order to discredit others who have a differing opinion, or to distort the facts of the matter at hand.

+1

Vayne.8563:

Different strokes for different folks.

And GW2 is virtually the opposite of that.

No, actually. Guild Wars 2 is the response to every other game having the exact same MMO. They didn’t make a game and introduce a new raid in it, with a new tier of gear every three months.

This is the one game for people who play my play style. This game was made for people who don’t like the stuff that was already out there. That’s sort of the whole point. If you love raiding, let’s say (not saying you do) and that’s all you want to do, clearly this isn’t the game you’d be playing.

This is a game made for people who enjoy this kind of stuff. No game is going to suit everyone.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 is the response to every other game having the exact same MMO. They didn’t make a game and introduce a new raid in it, with a new tier of gear every three months.

Yea, GW2 is a true novelty in its genre. (there we go again)
The only reason they keep gear threadmill at bay (for now) is that it is/was one of their main selling points, and that adding another tier would likely trigger a massive uproar (maybe)…but then again, the rethorics how this game would have everything we loved about GW was also one of their selling points, and we all know how dat turned out.

As far as raids are concerned, they replaced them with something that is arguably even worse – repeatable mass vs baws events.

Vayne.8563:

This is the one game for people who play my play style. This game was made for people who don’t like the stuff that was already out there. That’s sort of the whole point. If you love raiding, let’s say (not saying you do) and that’s all you want to do, clearly this isn’t the game you’d be playing.

This is a game made for people who enjoy this kind of stuff. No game is going to suit everyone.

“This is the one game for people who play my play style.” – well, some are into cheap recycled content, just like some love McDonalds. Luckily we have more alternatives irl, at least.

“This game was made for people who don’t like the stuff that was already out there.” By combining (much of) the stuff they didn’t like in a single game. Sounds legit.

“No game is going to suit everyone.” Well this one sure tried HARD to do exactly that, and look what happened.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 is the response to every other game having the exact same MMO. They didn’t make a game and introduce a new raid in it, with a new tier of gear every three months.

Yea, GW2 is a true novelty in its genre. (there we go again)
The only reason they keep gear threadmill at bay (for now) is that it is/was one of their main selling points, and that adding another tier would likely trigger a massive uproar (maybe)…but then again, the rethorics how this game would have everything we loved about GW was also one of their selling points, and we all know how dat turned out.

As far as raids are concerned, they replaced them with something that is arguably even worse – repeatable mass vs baws events.

Vayne.8563:

This is the one game for people who play my play style. This game was made for people who don’t like the stuff that was already out there. That’s sort of the whole point. If you love raiding, let’s say (not saying you do) and that’s all you want to do, clearly this isn’t the game you’d be playing.

This is a game made for people who enjoy this kind of stuff. No game is going to suit everyone.

“This is the one game for people who play my play style.” – well, some are into cheap recycled content, just like some love McDonalds. Luckily we have more alternatives irl, at least.

“This game was made for people who don’t like the stuff that was already out there.” By combining (much of) the stuff they didn’t like in a single game. Sounds legit.

“No game is going to suit everyone.” Well this one sure tried HARD to do exactly that, and look what happened.

Well, it failed to please one crowd, but they hang around the forums, completely unable to accept that others are quite happy with the game. That’s the issue here. You insist on trying to insult people who like the game by comparing it to McDonalds. Shrugs.

Your loss.

There is no loss, actually, and I’m likely more insulting to McDonalds in that regard.

You say I am unable of accepting some ppl like the game and I claim you are unable to accept the fact very many don’t.
After all, when I’m countering your blind love for the game, I am actually "showing lurkers that there’s another point of view, so they can make up their own mind.

You wouldn’t believe the percentage of people who read forums and just accept what they see. Without seeing the counterpoint, some people will believe."
(that sound familiar?)

;)

KarlaGrey.5903:

I claim you are unable to accept the fact very many don’t.

I argue with Vayne, a lot actually, but he has, quite frequently in fact, stated that this game is not for everyone, that not everyone likes it.

Yet there he is, arguing with each and everyone of us.
(should have seen our ‘debate’ via private messages)

KarlaGrey.5903:

You say I am unable of accepting some ppl like the game and I claim you are unable to accept the fact very many don’t.

This game had more income in the 1st quarter this year than Guild Wars made in the last 10 reported quarters of income.

I guess that’s a lot for many don’t like the game.

And that isn’t counting China.

Behellagh.1468:

KarlaGrey.5903:

You say I am unable of accepting some ppl like the game and I claim you are unable to accept the fact very many don’t.

This game had more income in the 1st quarter this year than Guild Wars made in the last 10 reported quarters of income.

I guess that’s a lot for many don’t like the game.

And that isn’t counting China.

my basic assumption based on various releases is that gw2 is doing better than gw1

However, earnings dont necessarily represent how MANY people prefer gw1 style of gw2 style.

The main reason is because the monetization is fundamentally different. In GW1, the richest players contributed similarly to the poorest. per expansion, each player probably paid like 60-100 bucks. now? some players spend hundreds a month. The non spending player also in general seems to spend similarly or more on GW2, so really it could just mean they are monetizing the game better.

That said, for a business, thats usually more important by far than the number of people they are pleasing.

The real question, is would some of these things these players suggest increase the money GW2 specifically makes. Which requires a much deeper analysis than sales numbers on either side of the debate.

also, really shouldnt compare a game in its prime to one that is next to retirement and hasnt recieved new content in like 2 years?

There’s lots of people foolish enough to throw away thousands of dollars on virtual items.
It only takes a small percentage of people to contribute to the majority of revenue (google “f2p revenue” to get an idea).

Also, considering the state of the game right before mega servers were introduced, it’s highly unlikely the majority of the 3.5 million accounts were still active.

I’d like to see more dungeons. They don’t have to be story + three exploration paths, but could be with one path (perhaps 50% longer than current paths).
Also a new zone should be (IMO) at least half the size of current zones and the two new zones we have seen have been nice additions, but they just don’t cut it when it comes to size and longevity.

Sure there are tons of things to do in the game, but (there always is a but) after two years many players all ready have done them several times over. So yes, players will always want more and more content. Because doing the same content over and over will get boring eventually.

BlueZone.4236:

There’s lots of people foolish enough to throw away thousands of dollars on virtual items.
It only takes a small percentage of people to contribute to the majority of revenue (google “f2p revenue” to get an idea).

Also, considering the state of the game right before mega servers were introduced, it’s highly unlikely the majority of the 3.5 million accounts were still active.

I expect only 10-20% of the 3.5 million accounts are still active. Gamers hop to new games faster than bees with flowers.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Yet there he is, arguing with each and everyone of us.
(should have seen our ‘debate’ via private messages)

Careful, I think I’m beginning to like you.

I don’t argue with every criticism. Only the ones I happen to disagree strongly with. lol

And you appear to have a tendency to disagree most with the criticism that is backed by facts. Which is usually met on your end with subjective ‘argumentation’ (‘I like it, therefore it is fine.’).

KarlaGrey.5903:

I and Teofa clearly defined what dynamic events are, yet you are still heralding them as ‘something done right’ in comparison to other games. Thing is, you never had an argument to start with, because the events are as static as any other quest, yet here you are, defending oranges believing they’re apples.

Our arguments aren’t unfair. We’re simply call a spade a spade.

As mentioned earlier, the sun rising and setting must be the definition of dynamic according to that logic then.

How are they as statics and any other quest? A static quest is one that if I repeat with 1 million alts I will always come across exactly the same thing. Hey even after I finish it and pass throught he area I will experience exactly the same thing. The lamberjack might thank me for ridding him of all the wolves but the whole country side is still riddled with the same exact amount of wolves before I even started.

Now compare with what happens in Gw2!

A dynamic even is actually fluid and chains. Lets take the Lord ignus dynamic event chain in lonar’s pass as an example (happens to be my favorite) I could pass 8 times by the inn belonging to Klement and experiance something completely different.
I could find Klement just standing there being all Inn keepery, I could pass by there and see him talking to that order of whispers agent, I could pass by there and find no one next to the inn, I could pass by there and see him fighting pirates with the orders of whisper agents, I could pass by there and see some creates on the floor with this order of whispers agent inspecting them, I could pass by there and see the order of whispers agent kneeling next to a pigeon tying a message to its legs, I could pass by there and see him talking to some asura as well as I could pass by there and finding fighting lord ignus and a bunch of fire elementals. Same point in space, 8 possible states. But even then Like Vayne said events scale and that scaling brings visual changes too, the number of pirates / fire elements changes, their difficulty changes.. Some times I have to face 10 sometimes I have to face 20. Sometimes I only need to deal with regular pirates, sometimes with veteran pirates. And thats just 1 location this Dynamic event takes place, it also affects the beach area, sometimes you can come across the caravan traveling towards the steading other times there is just an empty road. Sometimes you can come across lord ignus roaming in the wild with the fields around him all buring up, sometimes there is just nothing there.

In short Dynamic doesnt mean random, dynamic is the opposite of static and static means no change ever happens. Dynamic events cause a number of changes all around them. Sure the whole cycle repeats on a timer but why is that an issue?, its a huge world chances are you’re only going to come across this particular event only a handful of times and its very likely each of those times you will experience something a little different something it just never happens in a static quest. Hey you dont even ever see that static quest ever again because you know you kill 5 wolves, the country side is roaming with them but while the woodcutter was scared to death to go chop a couple of trees before now he is perfectly fine and at ease with the situation though he must really be lazy because not once will you ever finding him actually chopping a tree.

Dynamic events change that, they turn what used to be a traditional static world in one that’s alive. The woodcutter actually goes and chop his trees, you didnt kill the dredge loggers just for fun, you actually cleared the way for the wood cutters who actually bother to go chop down the trees.

Are Dynamic events perfect? of course not there is still room for improvement, there always is. But saying dynamic events are just like static quests with a different name is just wrong. They’re very different and provide a much more immeressive experience.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Ok then.

The funny thing is, they ARE static, you just don’t see them as such, because they’re wrapped around in cellophane, or something.

Why is it so hard to accept the game might not be as great as you picture it?

Agreed, Karla.

LoL. Save Moshpoipoi! Every… single… time I go through there.
Static is why we have the ravening horde doing the Frostgorge hampster wheel.
Static is why Shaman goes down faster than a tray of free Twinkies at a Walmart.
Static is why timers work.
etc.

A duck in a quaggan suit is still a duck. Even if the suit is unique to GW2. It’s still a duck.

well if you take a little break from farming perhaps next time you could like you know, defend moshpoipoi and prevent it being taken over in the first place so there is no saving to be done.

Also interesting statement:
“Static is why timers work.”

static means unchanging, if no change occurs what do exactly the timers do?

KarlaGrey.5903:

And you appear to have a tendency to disagree most with the criticism that is backed by facts. Which is usually met on your end with subjective ‘argumentation’ (‘I like it, therefore it is fine.’).

Actually much of the criticism is based on opinion, even with the facts. It’s a fact that there are no instanced raids in this game. There’s an opinion that this is a bad thing. It’s a fact that the megaservers have issues. It’s also a fact that some people feel they’ve revitalized the game.

That the issues exist is factual. But the percentage of people who dislike it is purely speculation.

I think you’ll find I’ve never actually argued against a fact. But anyone can tell you that facts can be interpreted many ways. That’s what lawyers do.

Galen Grey.4709:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Ok then.

The funny thing is, they ARE static, you just don’t see them as such, because they’re wrapped around in cellophane, or something.

Why is it so hard to accept the game might not be as great as you picture it?

Agreed, Karla.

LoL. Save Moshpoipoi! Every… single… time I go through there.
Static is why we have the ravening horde doing the Frostgorge hampster wheel.
Static is why Shaman goes down faster than a tray of free Twinkies at a Walmart.
Static is why timers work.
etc.

A duck in a quaggan suit is still a duck. Even if the suit is unique to GW2. It’s still a duck.

well if you take a little break from farming perhaps next time you could like you know, defend moshpoipoi and prevent it being taken over in the first place so there is no saving to be done.

Also interesting statement:
“Static is why timers work.”

static means unchanging, if no change occurs what do exactly the timers do?

I don’t farm or zerg run, sorry. Don’t try ad hominem, you aren’t very good at it.

Defend Moshpoipoi. Why. It will only get overran again next cycle. over and over and over. I have..but I don’t do Hampster Wheel. Ring and chain events are not new and only interesting a couple of times. I did them when prior to Anet even announcing this game. Actually EQ2 had ring events that were random and not linked to a set location or time. You could not decide to go x place and “wait”.

Wow. A static event on a timed spawn lets people show up when it spawns. ie World Bosses. The event, and the time it spawns are static.

Vayne.8563:

Actually much of the criticism is based on opinion, even with the facts. It’s a fact that there are no instanced raids in this game. There’s an opinion that this is a bad thing. It’s a fact that the megaservers have issues. It’s also a fact that some people feel they’ve revitalized the game.

That the issues exist is factual. But the percentage of people who dislike it is purely speculation.

I think you’ll find I’ve never actually argued against a fact. But anyone can tell you that facts can be interpreted many ways. That’s what lawyers do.

On ‘dynamic’ events:
It is a fact instanced raids – the larger group events for mmos – have been replaced by repeatable events (so-called ‘dynamic’ events, world events, and LS events)
It is a fact they boil down to STATIC quests on a repeat button, triggered by preset conditions, or a series of conditions
It is a fact they cannot function without zergs
It is a fact zergs come with a lot of lag (unless you’re rolling on a high-end machine and a lot of bandwidth)
It is a fact such events (must!) include a significant drop in difficulty, as requiring some superior coordination from a large group of random players is a recipe for disaster
It is a fact such things are a massive watered-down version of typical raids (see above for reasons) – which is a double-edged sword
It is also a fact that it would be wise to have the best of both worlds – diversity, you know

It is also a fact GW2 dungeon and mob design both have significant quality issues (the game/profession mechanics were designed with pvp in mind), which is why it is highly unlikely that instanced raids would suddenly become an exception to that rule (<a logical assumption)
It is also a fact you ignored my arguments against dumbing down games for the masses , because it debunks your argumentation of ‘I like it, ergo it is fine.’

@Gai..Galen Grey
Whenever I read such comments, all that comes to mind is a rubber ball bouncing of a brick wall.
We realize you really like the game, but those events are about as dynamic, or ‘alive’ as watching a pointer doing a full round on the clock and giving a loud ring on a particular time (if set).
Moreover, scalable does not equal dynamic, unless of course you consider the entire game dynamic then. In which case you may refer to the previous 2-3 pages to clear that part up. The tech simply isn’t here yet to make pve in mmos truly dynamic, which is why pvp is the only really dynamic ‘content’ of mmos. That of course does not mean the pve cannot have longevity..when done right.

@Karla agreed. WvW are the only truly dynamic zones in the game. (not counting the EoTM farmfest zone)

Sadly they are also the zones most ignored by the dev teams.

SWG GCW at the end had dynamic pve, in that if you killed enough enemy NPC forces in a zone the zone would flip to your faction and spawn allied units. It allowed PvE to work with the PvP in affecting control. Control of areas had consequences as in who had cities and services, and who could use them. The most humorous thing was that killing enough enemy NPC got you on the Bounty list, and a real player could hunt and kill you, PvP enabled or not.

Unfortunately Anet ignored factional dynamics for this game, although they did have them in Factions as the Lux/Kurz map control did “change the game” somewhat for everyone.

Kinda true – it’s virtually pve with real people.

There is I think an important part that hasnt been considered yet in the Expansion pack vs LS argument.

Now Dynamic event arent loved by everyone one hey a few posts before this there was even an argument Dynamic events arent no different then your regular quest but something that definitely makes them stand apart is the work they require to develop them.

In your typical quest you have something like a woodcutter who wants you to kill 5 wolves so he can go do some wood cutting. Now I am no game developer and I dont claim to know exactly how it goes but I do have enough exposure to approximate the work in entails, if someone disagrees or has better insight please feel free to correct me. So assuming this is a new zone you probably have a spawn marker for the wolves, a variable for the number of wolves you want and their respawn rate. perhaps also an effect radius. Then you have the woodcutter, you need to build the character, assign some idle type animations to him. Quest would I imagine have a variable for the requirements, say kill 5 wolves, quest text and reward. You also need to add the wolves, their loot tables, attacks, attack animations and all that.

Now lets compare with a similar dynamic event. Say defeat the dredge loggers from Hrothgar’s pass. So first you need to script the conditions for the event trigger, because it has prerequisites.. saving the bridge has to fail. Then you need to create the npc involved, which are the 3 loggers and engineer larian. You have the voices overs for one of the loggers and engineer larian. Engineer larian needs to be scripted to look for help. She roams around looking for players. When a player is in range, she is scripted to run to him and waving her arms. Voice over for the conversation asking players for help. Dredge loggers need animation for actual logging as well as fighting players. They need to be scripted to disengage their logging when a hostile npc gets into range and attack. The event also needs to have a timer scripted that controls the amount of lumber taken by the dredge and to keep track of moral. The event needs also scaling scripting ( I would imagine their is some sort of common script for this but probably has values that need to be set) When victory conditions are met, if they are met, the tree loggers have to be scripted / animated to move over to the tree and start logging and then move the logs back to the bridge. Logs need to be modeled and textured (or reused from somewhere else if they already exist)

In short Both quests and dynamic events need the same things done but dynamic events have extra work that quests do not. Voice overs of multiple characters (though this is true for some traditional quests too), multiple scripts / animation for characters that doesnt happen in traditional questing cause NPCs dont roam around like they do in Gw2, they dont go seeking players out, they dont run over and do stuff. Multiple objects and custom animations… like in this case the loggers actually carrying the lumber or things like the order of whispers agent knelling down and attacking the note to the courier pigeon. All this stuff takes time.

So what am I getting at…
biggest issue against LS is people feel its not enough content but like I said before its not like Arenanet are sitting around doing nothing, LS or expansion what they produced is what they are able to produce quantity wise. People are kinda expecting that if they go Expansion wise they’ll be able to deliver one in 6 months time like they did with Gw1, I think thats not really possible considering how the world is way more detailed and requires a lot of work… so what if they’ll not even be able to meet other MMO’s rate of content release that generally varies between 1 – 2 years… what if because of the extra complexity in how Dynamic events work its closer to 3 years to build an entire expansion?

Pure speculation of course but wouldnt that be a powerful motivator to go the living story route?

Some people like the game, warts and all. Some people do not. I’m guessing more people find the game’s design acceptable than not, because the game still seems populated enough to have queues and lag from ‘large zergs’. Servers still become Full. Enough people like the design that they are still here, and much of the design hasn’t been changed, which happens when enough of the playerbase seems unsatisfied.

What boggles my mind is the fact that those people that find the game’s design and implementation so distasteful do not find other avenues to fulfill their entertainment needs. If I find an activity that gives me no enjoyment, that I can find no redeeming qualities about, I move on…if at all possible. But, I’m just weird that way, I guess. /shrug

@Karla

You accuse me of ignoring facts, but you’re doing the same. I’ve already pointed out differences between static quests and dynamic events.

One of them is dynamic scaling, which static quests don’t have. That’s dynamic. It doesn’t matter if it was used in public quests elsewhere. It’s not static.

You ignore that some events interact with each other and I furnished an example.

And you ignore that different results of one event can spawn different events.

Dynamic events are dynamic. Unless you suggest that the scaling isn’t dynamic.

Scaling in itself is dynamic – but it has to do with quantity, not quality, or content of the quest.
Repeatable quests are not dynamic, even if they interact with (i.e. are triggered by) other quests. They still follow a preset code. A storyline that has 3 different possible outcomes isn’t dynamic because of that. It just has added variety, but it can never be genuinely dynamic, like some people want to believe.

As said several times before, the tech isn’t here yet. Until it finally arrives, pvp is the sole truly dynamic mode in the game, unless you’d allow players play as monsters in pve. However that would be just plain abused, so yea.

I cannot believe this is still a point for discussion.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Scaling in itself is dynamic – but it has to do with quantity, not quality, or content of the quest.
Repeatable quests are not dynamic, even if they interact with (i.e. are triggered by) other quests. They still follow a preset code. A storyline that has 3 different possible outcomes isn’t dynamic because of that. It just has added variety, but it can never be genuinely dynamic, like some people want to believe.

As said several times before, the tech isn’t here yet. Until it finally arrives, pvp is the sole truly dynamic mode in the game, unless you’d allow players play as monsters in pve. However that would be just plain abused, so yea.

I cannot believe this is still a point for discussion.

It’s not a point for discussion. You’ve already admitted they’re dynamic…if nothing else in the scaling. That dynamism differentiates them from traditional quests. Thanks for making my point.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Galen Grey.4709:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Ok then.

The funny thing is, they ARE static, you just don’t see them as such, because they’re wrapped around in cellophane, or something.

Why is it so hard to accept the game might not be as great as you picture it?

Agreed, Karla.

LoL. Save Moshpoipoi! Every… single… time I go through there.
Static is why we have the ravening horde doing the Frostgorge hampster wheel.
Static is why Shaman goes down faster than a tray of free Twinkies at a Walmart.
Static is why timers work.
etc.

A duck in a quaggan suit is still a duck. Even if the suit is unique to GW2. It’s still a duck.

well if you take a little break from farming perhaps next time you could like you know, defend moshpoipoi and prevent it being taken over in the first place so there is no saving to be done.

Also interesting statement:
“Static is why timers work.”

static means unchanging, if no change occurs what do exactly the timers do?

I don’t farm or zerg run, sorry. Don’t try ad hominem, you aren’t very good at it.

Defend Moshpoipoi. Why. It will only get overran again next cycle. over and over and over. I have..but I don’t do Hampster Wheel. Ring and chain events are not new and only interesting a couple of times. I did them when prior to Anet even announcing this game. Actually EQ2 had ring events that were random and not linked to a set location or time. You could not decide to go x place and “wait”.

Wow. A static event on a timed spawn lets people show up when it spawns. ie World Bosses. The event, and the time it spawns are static.

If you dont do Hampster wheel then how come you always come across the same dynamic event. There were 1500 different ones at launch, probably closer to 2000 now. It takes at least 5 minutes to spawn a dynamic event and an average to 5 minutes to finish one. Thats like the worst case scenario.. most dynamic events are on a 30 min timer and most take far longer then 5 mins to complete. but even in that worst case scenario if you’re playing all over the place rather then in a wheel it should be an average of 330hrs before you come across the same event again. Is that really that bad?

I did play Eq2 granted not extensively but I got in my character in the 70s range so my question is where are all these events you speak off never seen one! In Gw2 they’re the whole game, not an exception.

for the 2nd time, static means unchanging… That sometimes the world boss is roaming the world and sometimes it retreats already doesnt make it static. That amount of mobs and types changes doesnt make it static either. That if tequalt isnt defeated it leaves the world corrupted with those spewy thingies again doesnt make it static. That things happen prior to the world boss shows up isnt static either. Granted the world bosses are perhaps the least exciting dynamic events out there but even they arent static. Scenery changes during the event, after the event as well as before the event, conditions changes. … again not static. going through the area where the world bosses spawn can have you experiance different world states if we want to call them that. thats dynamic not static. This is not just world boss is not there and suddenly it pops up into exsitance out of tin air… you have actual passage of time, progression and things happening ergo dynamic.

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Scaling in itself is dynamic – but it has to do with quantity, not quality, or content of the quest.
Repeatable quests are not dynamic, even if they interact with (i.e. are triggered by) other quests. They still follow a preset code. A storyline that has 3 different possible outcomes isn’t dynamic because of that. It just has added variety, but it can never be genuinely dynamic, like some people want to believe.

As said several times before, the tech isn’t here yet. Until it finally arrives, pvp is the sole truly dynamic mode in the game, unless you’d allow players play as monsters in pve. However that would be just plain abused, so yea.

I cannot believe this is still a point for discussion.

It’s not a point for discussion. You’ve already admitted they’re dynamic…if nothing else in the scaling. That dynamism differentiates them from traditional quests. Thanks for making my point.

Way to pretend it was numbers we discussed for 3 pages long.
This is actually rather amusing. Someone sounds rather desperate to win a case they never had.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

Actually much of the criticism is based on opinion, even with the facts. It’s a fact that there are no instanced raids in this game. There’s an opinion that this is a bad thing. It’s a fact that the megaservers have issues. It’s also a fact that some people feel they’ve revitalized the game.

That the issues exist is factual. But the percentage of people who dislike it is purely speculation.

I think you’ll find I’ve never actually argued against a fact. But anyone can tell you that facts can be interpreted many ways. That’s what lawyers do.

On ‘dynamic’ events:
It is a fact instanced raids – the larger group events for mmos – have been replaced by repeatable events (so-called ‘dynamic’ events, world events, and LS events)
It is a fact they boil down to STATIC quests on a repeat button, triggered by preset conditions, or a series of conditions
It is a fact they cannot function without zergs
It is a fact zergs come with a lot of lag (unless you’re rolling on a high-end machine and a lot of bandwidth)
It is a fact such events (must!) include a significant drop in difficulty, as requiring some superior coordination from a large group of random players is a recipe for disaster
It is a fact such things are a massive watered-down version of typical raids (see above for reasons) – which is a double-edged sword
It is also a fact that it would be wise to have the best of both worlds – diversity, you know

It is also a fact GW2 dungeon and mob design both have significant quality issues (the game/profession mechanics were designed with pvp in mind), which is why it is highly unlikely that instanced raids would suddenly become an exception to that rule (<a logical assumption)
It is also a fact you ignored my arguments against dumbing down games for the masses , because it debunks your argumentation of ‘I like it, ergo it is fine.’

@Gai..Galen Grey
Whenever I read such comments, all that comes to mind is a rubber ball bouncing of a brick wall.
We realize you really like the game, but those events are about as dynamic, or ‘alive’ as watching a pointer doing a full round on the clock and giving a loud ring on a particular time (if set).
Moreover, scalable does not equal dynamic, unless of course you consider the entire game dynamic then. In which case you may refer to the previous 2-3 pages to clear that part up. The tech simply isn’t here yet to make pve in mmos truly dynamic, which is why pvp is the only really dynamic ‘content’ of mmos. That of course does not mean the pve cannot have longevity..when done right.

you have some points, but your personal opinions cloud some facts.
1) it is not a fact instance raids are replaced by dynamic events. large scale dynamic events play more like world bosses in other MMOs. Some devs have mentioned a desire for raids, honestly i have no desire for raids at all, but likelyhood is it will happen eventually, and it wont likely be in place of large scale dynamic events
2) your concept that dynamic events are static events, because you have seen them before, is not accurate. dynamic means in motion, it does not mean newly generated or unique. Dynamic means in motion, i have studied dynamics, and statics in engineering and i can assure the difference is studying things that do not move versus things that move.
3) it is largely untrue that dynamic events cannot function without zergs, the ONLY events that cannot be defeated by 6-7 people are tequatl and wurm. I know this because i have done almost every major event with low numbers at one time or the other. In fact i would say most dynamic events work, and are way more entertaining without zergs present.
4) The reason dynamic events arent hard has little to do with the nature of dynamic events, and more to do with the fact that anet prefers to make easy content most of the time, because hey people like easy content.

now, yes, i would say in general pve design could use a step up, and they could have more challenging/engaging encounter design.

But As for your hatred of dynamic events? while i wish they were executed better, more far reaching, etc. That is not due to the nature of dynamic events, its due to the implementation, some existing dynamic events/chains have changed the nature of the area you are in, the enemies that appear, what other events are happening, and after going back to other quest structures, by and large, is far superior in my opinion, for most types of quests. (although overarching and some personal quests/side quests would be a good compliment to the dynamic ones)

KarlaGrey.5903:

Scaling in itself is dynamic – but it has to do with quantity, not quality, or content of the quest.
Repeatable quests are not dynamic, even if they interact with (i.e. are triggered by) other quests. They still follow a preset code. A storyline that has 3 different possible outcomes isn’t dynamic because of that. It just has added variety, but it can never be genuinely dynamic, like some people want to believe.

quality is a different subject altogether.
Obviously different people value different things. Some like quests for the action they provide, they dont care about the story (there is a reason there is the notion no one reads quest text after all ) they care about the challenge completing those quests provides. Gw2 is definitely lacking to such people and for good reason. The Dynamic Events thems are pretty easy and like you say provide nothing out of the ordinary.

There are people who like me though play quests for the stories… that read the quest texts and want immersion. People who for them static quests is a very core issue with MMOs that they had to accept for years. What the NPCs tell you conflicts with your other senses. Mr Woodcutter you’re thanking me for killing all the wolves bothering you but I can see them right over there, if I just take a step in that direct I will undoubtley be bitten too no doubt. How can you expect people like to conceed there is nothing dynamic about dynamic events when for the first time, freeing a town from centaurs means there are no centaurs in town, not even a painting of one. How can you expect us to say they’re static when if I fail to defend the town, not only centaurs will be roaming the streets but houses will be burning and there will dead bodies everywhere. For the first time what we’re told matches what we’re seeing. Okey its not perfect, these centaurs never give up no matter how many times we stop them from taking over the town but that aside each and every time it repeats the whole thing plays out with small differences. NPCs arent the biggest lazy bunch ever that do not lift a finger to defend their threatened town like in regular static quest, they join the fray, risk everything and die defending what’s there’s. The whole thing is beautiful if thats the sort of thing you appreciate.

Boneheart.3561:

Sharky.5024:

Guild Wars 2 was officially announced 23 months after the release of Guild Wars Prophecies and a year ago ArenaNet already admitted that they are working on certain „long term projects“. So maybe they will unveil the development of a next generation mmo soon…

With mounts! And permanent, challenging content, with a subscription and no cashshop! Instanced raids!

It’s as good as promised, we’re waiting, ArenaNet.

All MMO’s even those with a subscription have a cash shop. Too much money potential for any developer to get rid of it.

The question will never be.." Too cash shop or not to cash shop" The question is…" Too egregiously cash shop, or not to egregiously cash shop."

But a cash shop we will have.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Galen Grey.4709:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Ok then.

The funny thing is, they ARE static, you just don’t see them as such, because they’re wrapped around in cellophane, or something.

Why is it so hard to accept the game might not be as great as you picture it?

Agreed, Karla.

LoL. Save Moshpoipoi! Every… single… time I go through there.
Static is why we have the ravening horde doing the Frostgorge hampster wheel.
Static is why Shaman goes down faster than a tray of free Twinkies at a Walmart.
Static is why timers work.
etc.

A duck in a quaggan suit is still a duck. Even if the suit is unique to GW2. It’s still a duck.

well if you take a little break from farming perhaps next time you could like you know, defend moshpoipoi and prevent it being taken over in the first place so there is no saving to be done.

Also interesting statement:
“Static is why timers work.”

static means unchanging, if no change occurs what do exactly the timers do?

I don’t farm or zerg run, sorry. Don’t try ad hominem, you aren’t very good at it.

Defend Moshpoipoi. Why. It will only get overran again next cycle. over and over and over. I have..but I don’t do Hampster Wheel. Ring and chain events are not new and only interesting a couple of times. I did them when prior to Anet even announcing this game. Actually EQ2 had ring events that were random and not linked to a set location or time. You could not decide to go x place and “wait”.

Wow. A static event on a timed spawn lets people show up when it spawns. ie World Bosses. The event, and the time it spawns are static.

you are mistaking not liking the implementation with it being static.

First of all not all dynamic events/chains are the same.
Second of all some dynamic events change what areas are available, and what enemies are around.
Yes dynamic events are not completely new ideas, doesnt really change anything whether its new or not.

World bosses are now static events, i agree, i think it was a bad idea, and a blow to the whole dynamic event system. A lot of new events are following a static principle, and not changing much in the area, and are not very interactive. I agree.

Poor post release implementation, and back peddling doesnt make dynamic events bad, it just means anet is not delivering on the potential of their concepts. I would fight for more dynamic (truely dynamic events) and less of the new world boss and LS type events which dumb down the dynamic event system to just being similar to public events.