(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Attribute Redux
So it’s kind of my opinion that the attribute system has gotten really messy and unpolished over the years; there’s a lot of asymmetry and arbitrary distinctions/lines (like what’s the conceptual difference between a primary and a secondary stat, as opposed to a base and a derived stat), and the Hero Panel as a whole could stand to be more intuitive and readable, with slightly fewer stats available on gear, with secondary effects tied in.
To what degree it’s worth revising the system at this point is up for debate, but I was curious what other people thought and how they might redesign it. Here’s what I’d do:
Nine attributes – normalize level-based scaling (either have everything scale to 1000 at level 80 or keep it at a base of 0 with all level-based scaling behind the scenes). Two attributes tied to four major roles (physical damage, control/condition, defense, and support), and then one class-specific utility attribute (all but Rev have one currently – Rev needs and, and these should start appearing on gear). Obviously, we would retain the ability to build in a fluid way with different stat combos and mix and match roles.
Power – as in current game. increases all physical damage
Finesse – replaces Precision and Ferocity – influences both critical hits and extra dmg
Expertise – as in current game – increases duration on conditions
Malice – condition damage
Concentration – as in current game – increases duration on boons
Spirit – healing power (this should probably be normalized a bit)
Toughness – reduces physical damage subtractively, and condition damage by a %
Vitality – increases health and endurance regeneration
Ninth attribute – class specific & utilitarian (guile, build, intellect, etc.)
I believe the lack of any bonus to endurance regeneration tied to any defensive stat is the main reason why offensive stats remain dominant in the game – because dodging is severely limited, the best defense is pretty much always trying to win a fight quickly. Ironically, defensive stats would probably be more valuable if dodging was unlimited. This is something I touched on in a different post.
This would all obviously entail some rebalancing, but, honestly, I think it would give them an easier foundation to work from in the future.
Condi damage is weighted toward the attribute condition damage (which really needs to get a name change to Malice), while physical DPS is split almost equally between three attributes, which is a balance problem that I think could largely be solved by combining Precision and Ferocity.
Because high level gear has a minimum of three attributes, this would make gearing more interesting, because even a full power build would be able to choose a defense stat, condition stat, or a utility stat to supplement their build, which would significantly increase build variety.
My optimal version of Attributes for GW2, which covers equally offensive, defensive as like supportive effects to ensure, that offensive Stats aren’t the only thing anymore, that counts
Power
Increases Physical Damage and Increases Condition Durations from you.
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Power and Expertise<
Vitality
Increases Max Health percentually and Increases Healing Efficiency
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Vitality and Healing Power<
Precision
Increases Critical Hit Rate percentually and Increases Critical Damage percentually
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Precision and Ferocity<
Toughness
Increases Physical Defense and Increases Boon Durations from you.
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Toughness and Concentration<
Wisdom
Increases Condition Damage and Increases the Resistance to Conditions, lowering the percentage of how much Condition Damage ignores your Armor/Defense .
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Condition Damage and the Resistance Boon reworked into an Attribute<
Agility
Increases Endurance Regeneration and Increases Critical Evasion Rate
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >the Vigor Boon and the Weakness Condition<
Courage
Increases Boon Intensity and Increases your Body Stature making you more immune to Crowd Control Effects like Stuns, Dazes, Launches, Knockdowns, Pulls, your Breakbar will deplete slower, before enemies can actually break your will and CC you with Hard CC Effects
Boons Redux:
- Might = Raises Power & Vitality
- Regeneration = Heals Health over time
- Protection = Decreases incoming Damage by 25% and lets Conditions on you end 20% faster
- Swiftness = Increases Movement Speed and Recharge Time Speed by 33%
- Reflection = Reflects incoming Projectile attacks back to the Enemy.
New/Renamed and replaced/removed Boons
- Retribution = Removed, reworked into Trait/Skill Effects
- Vigor = Removed, reworked into Attribute
- Resistance = Removed, reworked into Attribute
- Stability = Removed, changed to Sturdiness, reworked into player Breakbar/Attribute
- Fury = Removed, integrated into Precision Formular Rework to make Precision more impactful.
- Dexterity = Increases Attack Speed (Quickness renamed)
- Aura = Blocks Incoming Attacks (Aegis renamed)
- Sturdiness = Makes the Breakbar resist stronger to CC Effects (New)
- Spirituality = Increases Wisdom and Agility (New)
- Ferocity = Increases your Breakbar Intensity of your CC Skills (New)
Condition Redux
- Burning = Damage over time that makes foes also more vulnerable to all other sources of Damage as long you are burning.
- Poison = Lowers Vitality + Power (Direct Counter to Might)
- Chill = Reduces Movement Speed by 50% and makes Skills Recharge Time Speed 33% slower
- Slow = Reduces Attack Speed by 50%
- Blindness = Makes you miss your target
- Disease = Disables Weapon Swapping, spreads to nearby foes and Damages over time when you move around (renamed reworked Torment)
- Confusion = Reactive Damage on Skill Performance (doesn’t include AA), removes friendly fire, so your skills (AoEs) will damage also your allies.
- Bleeding = Slow long lasting Damage over time, reduces Agility & Precision
- Fear = Decreases Courage & Wisdom and makes you retreat
- Petrification = Affects Breakbar, disables Dodges and reduces Agility
- Immobilize = Removed
- Vulnerability = Removed, merged into Burning
- Weakness = Removed , merged into Attributes/Petrification through Agility Reduction
- Taunt = Removed, we have already Fear, enough as Soft CC
- Cripple = Removed, reworked into Petrification to make GW2 have for each Element a fitting Condition:
- Water = Chill
- Fire = Burning
- Air = Slow
- Earth = Petrification
Result = 10 Boons and 10 Conditions and 7 Attributes with 2 Effects each.
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
(edited by Orpheal.8263)
My optimal version of Attributes for GW2, which covers equally offensive, defensive as like supportive effects to ensure, that offensive Stats aren’t the only thing anymore, that counts
Power
Increases Physical Damage and Increases Condition Durations from you.
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Power and Expertise<Vitality
Increases Max Health percentually and Increases Healing Efficiency
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Vitality and Healing Power<Precision
Increases Critical Hit Rate percentually and Increases Critical Damage percentually
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Precision and Ferocity<Toughness
Increases Physical Defense and Increases Boon Durations from you.
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Toughness and Concentration<Wisdom
Increases Condition Damage and Increases the Resistance to Conditions, lowering the percentage of how much Condition Damage ignores your Armor/Defense .
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Condition Damage and the Resistance Boon reworked into an Attribute<Agility
Increases Endurance Regeneration and Increases Critical Evasion Rate
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >the Vigor Boon and the Weakness Condition<Courage
Increases Boon Intensity and Increases your Body Stature making you more immune to Crowd Control Effects like Stuns, Dazes, Launches, Knockdowns, Pulls, your Breakbar will deplete slower, before enemies can actually break your will and CC you with Hard CC Effects
Boons Redux:
- Might = Raises Power & Vitality
- Regeneration = Heals Health over time
- Protection = Decreases incoming Damage by 25% and lets Conditions on you end 20% faster
- Swiftness = Increases Movement Speed by 33%
- Alacrity = Increases Skill Recharge Time SpeedNew/Renamed and replaced/removed Boons
- Retribution = Removed, reworked into Trait/Skill Effects
- Vigor = Removed, reworked into Attribute
- Resistance = Removed, reworked into Attribute
- Stability = Removed, changed to Sturdiness, reworked into player Breakbar/Attribute
- Fury = Removed, integrated into Precision Formular Rework to make Precision more impactful.
- Dexterity = Increases Attack Speed (Quickness renamed)
- Aura = Blocks Incoming Attacks (Aegis renamed)
- Sturdiness = Makes the Breakbar resist stronger to CC Effects (New)
- Spirituality = Increases Wisdom and Agility (New)
- Ferocity = Increases your Breakbar Intensity of your CC Skills (New)Condition Redux
- Burning = Damage over time that makes foes also more vulnerable to all other sources of Damage as long you are burning.
- Poison = Lowers Vitality + Power (Direct Counter to Might)
- Chill = Reduces Movement Speed by 50% and makes Skills Recharge Time Speed 33% slower
- Slow = Reduces Attack Speed by 50%
- Blindness = Makes you miss your target
- Disease = Disables Weapon Swapping, spreads to nearby foes and Damages over time when you move around (renamed reworked Torment)
- Confusion = Reactive Damage on Skill Performance (doesn’t include AA), removes friendly fire, so your skills (AoEs) will damage also your allies.
- Bleeding = Slow long lasting Damage over time, reduces Agility & Precision
- Fear = Decreases Courage & Wisdom and makes you retreat
- Petrification = Affects Breakbar, disables Dodges and reduces Agility
- Immobilize = Removed
- Vulnerability = Removed, merged into Burning
- Weakness = Removed , merged into Attributes/Petrification through Agility Reduction
- Taunt = Removed, we have already Fear, enough as Soft CC
- Cripple = Removed, reworked into Petrification to make GW2 have for each Element a fitting Condition:
- Water = Chill
- Fire = Burning
- Air = Slow
- Earth = Petrification
Result = 10 Boons and 10 Conditions and 7 Attributes with 2 Effects each.
I like a lot of what you have going here, it’s just a more significant rework than what I have.
1 error in my concept I found
Correction:
- Bleeding = Slow long lasting Damage over time, reduces Toughness & Precision
—-
About my concept, I’m literally for this concept since GW2 ruined the Game Balance just before the release of HoT already with the patch from June 23rd of 2015.
GW2 direly needs to reduce its effect spam by reducing the amount of Boons and Conditions.
But this alone won’t be a solution, the game needs also a reduction of Attributrs, while making at the same time each Attribute more impactful and equally useful for the Player, so that you just don’t have to focus only on like 3 attributes while the others aren’t interesting/useful for you.
Each Attribute should be for every player somehow interesting and useful and that equally either for offense, defense or self/group support.
Something I’m strongly convinced. can be reached only as goal by improving Attributes from singular effects to dual effects, because this WILL actually make each attribute more impactful.
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
1 error in my concept I found
Correction:
- Bleeding = Slow long lasting Damage over time, reduces Toughness & Precision
—-About my concept, I’m literally for this concept since GW2 ruined the Game Balance just before the release of HoT already with the patch from June 23rd of 2015.
GW2 direly needs to reduce its effect spam by reducing the amount of Boons and Conditions.
But this alone won’t be a solution, the game needs also a reduction of Attributrs, while making at the same time each Attribute more impactful and equally useful for the Player, so that you just don’t have to focus only on like 3 attributes while the others aren’t interesting/useful for you.Each Attribute should be for every player somehow interesting and useful and that equally either for offense, defense or self/group support.
Something I’m strongly convinced. can be reached only as goal by improving Attributes from singular effects to dual effects, because this WILL actually make each attribute more impactful.
That was what I was going for with mine, too, at least for the four “primary” attributes – Ferocity and Precision combined, Vitality increasing endurance regen, and Toughness reducing condition damage.
My optimal version of Attributes for GW2, which covers equally offensive, defensive as like supportive effects to ensure, that offensive Stats aren’t the only thing anymore, that counts
Power
Increases Physical Damage and Increases Condition Durations from you.
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Power and Expertise<Vitality
Increases Max Health percentually and Increases Healing Efficiency
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Vitality and Healing Power<Precision
Increases Critical Hit Rate percentually and Increases Critical Damage percentually
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Precision and Ferocity<Toughness
Increases Physical Defense and Increases Boon Durations from you.
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Toughness and Concentration<Wisdom
Increases Condition Damage and Increases the Resistance to Conditions, lowering the percentage of how much Condition Damage ignores your Armor/Defense .
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >Condition Damage and the Resistance Boon reworked into an Attribute<Agility
Increases Endurance Regeneration and Increases Critical Evasion Rate
So this Dual Effect Attribute is basically a merge between >the Vigor Boon and the Weakness Condition<Courage
Increases Boon Intensity and Increases your Body Stature making you more immune to Crowd Control Effects like Stuns, Dazes, Launches, Knockdowns, Pulls, your Breakbar will deplete slower, before enemies can actually break your will and CC you with Hard CC Effects
Boons Redux:
- Might = Raises Power & Vitality
- Regeneration = Heals Health over time
- Protection = Decreases incoming Damage by 25% and lets Conditions on you end 20% faster
- Swiftness = Increases Movement Speed by 33%
- Alacrity = Increases Skill Recharge Time SpeedNew/Renamed and replaced/removed Boons
- Retribution = Removed, reworked into Trait/Skill Effects
- Vigor = Removed, reworked into Attribute
- Resistance = Removed, reworked into Attribute
- Stability = Removed, changed to Sturdiness, reworked into player Breakbar/Attribute
- Fury = Removed, integrated into Precision Formular Rework to make Precision more impactful.
- Dexterity = Increases Attack Speed (Quickness renamed)
- Aura = Blocks Incoming Attacks (Aegis renamed)
- Sturdiness = Makes the Breakbar resist stronger to CC Effects (New)
- Spirituality = Increases Wisdom and Agility (New)
- Ferocity = Increases your Breakbar Intensity of your CC Skills (New)Condition Redux
- Burning = Damage over time that makes foes also more vulnerable to all other sources of Damage as long you are burning.
- Poison = Lowers Vitality + Power (Direct Counter to Might)
- Chill = Reduces Movement Speed by 50% and makes Skills Recharge Time Speed 33% slower
- Slow = Reduces Attack Speed by 50%
- Blindness = Makes you miss your target
- Disease = Disables Weapon Swapping, spreads to nearby foes and Damages over time when you move around (renamed reworked Torment)
- Confusion = Reactive Damage on Skill Performance (doesn’t include AA), removes friendly fire, so your skills (AoEs) will damage also your allies.
- Bleeding = Slow long lasting Damage over time, reduces Agility & Precision
- Fear = Decreases Courage & Wisdom and makes you retreat
- Petrification = Affects Breakbar, disables Dodges and reduces Agility
- Immobilize = Removed
- Vulnerability = Removed, merged into Burning
- Weakness = Removed , merged into Attributes/Petrification through Agility Reduction
- Taunt = Removed, we have already Fear, enough as Soft CC
- Cripple = Removed, reworked into Petrification to make GW2 have for each Element a fitting Condition:
- Water = Chill
- Fire = Burning
- Air = Slow
- Earth = Petrification
Result = 10 Boons and 10 Conditions and 7 Attributes with 2 Effects each.
In my opinion, basically merging power and condition-stats together is not a good idea. I´m for spliting power and condi completely
Walking’s good, fighting’s better, fcking’s best
Build diversity? It will only increase player’s damage output. No-one will want to pick defensive stat when you can simply kill enemy faster while using active defenses (dodges, blocks, etc)
In my opinion, basically merging power and condition-stats together is not a good idea. I´m for spliting power and condi completely
Nothing else makes together with Power sense to be merged together, other than Condition Duration.
Its for me just plain logic, that so more powerful you are, so longer last your Conditions.
However, if you want your Conditions to deal more damage directly then you won’t still do this with Power, but with Wisdom, the under my concept renamed direct term for “Condition Damage” which sounds also actually like an Attribute that suits to all the others, cause we also have Power and not “Physical Damage” as an attribute.
So to increase your Damage you deal between direct and condition damage is still splitted like currently now.
You have just now under my concept the scepter in your hand to make through Power also your Conditions last longer, but therefore as counter balance doesn’t the Might Boon increase anymore Condition Damage, but instead your Max Health and Healing Efficiency through increasing Vitality instead, thus making Might not just only an offensive valuable boon, but also a defensive valuable boon as well then!!
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
In my opinion, basically merging power and condition-stats together is not a good idea. I´m for spliting power and condi completely
Nothing else makes together with Power sense to be merged together, other than Condition Duration.
Its for me just plain logic, that so more powerful you are, so longer last your Conditions.
However, if you want your Conditions to deal more damage directly then you won’t still do this with Power, but with Wisdom, the under my concept renamed direct term for “Condition Damage” which sounds also actually like an Attribute that suits to all the others, cause we also have Power and not “Physical Damage” as an attribute.So to increase your Damage you deal between direct and condition damage is still splitted like currently now.
You have just now under my concept the scepter in your hand to make through Power also your Conditions last longer, but therefore as counter balance doesn’t the Might Boon increase anymore Condition Damage, but instead your Max Health and Healing Efficiency through increasing Vitality instead, thus making Might not just only an offensive valuable boon, but also a defensive valuable boon as well then!!
Sounds like quibbling over the given name of attributes in this game, rather than plain logic.
Anyway, power should stay as it is, so should condition-damage.
Power increases flat-damage, condition-damage increases the damage dealt by conditions.
The rest is absolutely fine by me, just don´t mix power and condi.
Walking’s good, fighting’s better, fcking’s best
LOL, you just say only with what Power can’t be mixed, but then also don’t provide no solution…
.. how about you make a more constructive suggestion and tell me instead, with what Condition Duration should be replaced in your opinion??
Because if you just can’t do that, then stands just only opinion against opinion and that won’t convince me to change anything on my concept.
You didn’t even tell us yet, why exactly you think that mixing these two effects together is no good idea >.>
Saying that something is no good idea can do everybody, but also explaining ,why you think so is something different, at which alot of people fail.
I’m not just only quibbling over attribute names…cause i think Condition Damage should be called Wisdom so that it fits in line with al the other Attribute Names.
I just explained to you that it is logic sense, that if you are as a character more powerful, that your Conditions should also last stronger.
If you can perform a stronger more intense burning, then it should be natural, that it is harder to extinguish it, so it lasts longer than a less insense burning that is easier for you to extinguish and smaller in size.
A small tea light fire won’t burn as intense and lasts as long, as like a more powerful inferno that burns down a whole forest, which can burn for days and days, while the small tea light doesn’t last as long just as an example for the difference between power and intensity of something having influence on its duration.
But even a simple bonfire will burn longer, than any simply tea light, just because the fire is more intense and powerful.
A bonfire can last for like over 8 hours, a small tea light lasts only like 4 hours or less regarding the quality of the tea light, before the fire will extinguish from alone due to having melted all wax away so that the fire meets on the fluid wax and extinguishes itself.
Why is this naturally so, that so bigger the fire is, so longer it lasts? because the bigger the size of the fire, so more burning material was there to burn and sp more burning material there is, so naturally longer can last the fire to burn.
Now replace “burning material” as formula with Power and you have what?
Exacly > So more Power = so longer lasting Burning (Conditions)
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
LOL, you just say only with what Power can’t be mixed, but then also don’t provide no solution…
.. how about you make a more constructive suggestion and tell me instead, with what Condition Duration should be replaced in your opinion??
Because if you just can’t do that, then stands just only opinion against opinion and that won’t convince me to change anything on my concept.
You didn’t even tell us yet, why exactly you think that mixing these two effects together is no good idea >.>
Saying that something is no good idea can do everybody, but also explaining ,why you think so is something different, at which alot of people fail.I’m not just only quibbling over attribute names…cause i think Condition Damage should be called Wisdom so that it fits in line with al the other Attribute Names.
I just explained to you that it is logic sense, that if you are as a character more powerful, that your Conditions should also last stronger.
If you can perform a stronger more intense burning, then it should be natural, that it is harder to extinguish it, so it lasts longer than a less insense burning that is easier for you to extinguish and smaller in size.A small tea light fire won’t burn as intense and lasts as long, as like a more powerful inferno that burns down a whole forest, which can burn for days and days, while the small tea light doesn’t last as long just as an example for the difference between power and intensity of something having influence on its duration.
But even a simple bonfire will burn longer, than any simply tea light, just because the fire is more intense and powerful.
A bonfire can last for like over 8 hours, a small tea light lasts only like 4 hours or less regarding the quality of the tea light, before the fire will extinguish from alone due to having melted all wax away so that the fire meets on the fluid wax and extinguishes itself.Why is this naturally so, that so bigger the fire is, so longer it lasts? because the bigger the size of the fire, so more burning material was there to burn and sp more burning material there is, so naturally longer can last the fire to burn.
Now replace “burning material” as formula with Power and you have what?Exacly > So more Power = so longer lasting Burning (Conditions)
Okay, I see our understanding differs so I will not arguing over metaphors as explanation for attributes.
Anyway, here my solution for the attributes;
Power
increases power and so a co-efficient draws from that number
-no additional increase of condition-duration
Wisdom (the name change is completely fine by me btw)
Increases condition-damage
-no additional condition-damage-reduction
Let them be damage stats instead of defense-damage-abominations
My own favorite change;
Toughness
reduces the overall amount of damage dealt to you
Walking’s good, fighting’s better, fcking’s best
@ Arzurag
You do realize, that the whole point of my concept is to give each Attribute a kinmd of primary and Secondary Effect, or?
So by just removing from those two Attributes their secondary effects and lettign have everythign else have secondary effects is no solution at all.
I wanted to know from you as a solution, what else you would put into place as secondary effect of Power, if not the effect of Condition Duration.
Same thign with Wisdom – so if you have a problem with Wisdoms secondary effect being a Condition Damge Reduction based on th percentage of how much Conditions should ignore your Defense, then I want to know from you, what you think should replace this effect, because under my concept that effect has the sense of reducing unneccessary Boon Effects in this case – it is the removal of the totalyl obsolete Resistance Boon, when in fact the mechanism of Resistance would get reworked as secondary effect for Wisdom.
If we would just have that, then there would be instantly no need anymore to have also the Resistance Boon and thats the whole plan behind my concept – make Attributes more impactful and compact, while reducing at the same time Combat System Effect Spam that comes from Boons and Conditions – which is why I reduced them to 10 on both sides, where the game has currently like 12 Boons and like 14 Conditions.
—
Also spotted another error in the concept, where I missed editing that part
Swiftness = Increased Movement Speed and increase Recharge Time Speed (merge with Alacrity)
Chronomancers get Alacrity replaced with a new Boon called
Reflection letting them create powerful timespace shields that revert incoming projectiles in time and send them back to the origin. They receive a kind of reworked Retribution back, that is focused on ranged attacks.
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside