Guild Wars 2

Why is no one talking about the Copper Salvage-o-matic? There’s your true p2w right there!

I’m fine with my current bag space at just full 20 slots on all my alts, but that thing… not having to buy salvage kits and take up half a bag for those… man, how are people not up in arms about that thing?

Jerus.4350:

Why is no one talking about the Copper Salvage-o-matic? There’s your true p2w right there!

I’m fine with my current bag space at just full 20 slots on all my alts, but that thing… not having to buy salvage kits and take up half a bag for those… man, how are people not up in arms about that thing?

i have it, and it truely is a huge advantage, especially if you DONT have massive inventory space. Main problem though is, cant salvage rares with it.

And yeah having a lot of inventory space is still an advantage, one i am not willing to put too much effort into, but an advantage none the less. My friends curse my name when in fractals i have to salvage goods at the treasure chest before going to next zone. And i cant carry around as much different armor set ups, as i might otherwise do. I often end up having to sell things, or toss them faster than i would if i had more inventory/bag space.

that said, i can deal with it. But i wouldnt claim its not an advantage.

Mystic Salvage Kit + Copper thingy, then personally I even carry a black lion on my mains.

Personally with just full 20 slots, and not a ton of extra fluff on my alts I can go through about 2 dungeons without having to salvage/sell, if I salvage as I go 3-5 depending on my luck.

That said, ideally I should carry more food and potion variations, but other than that they’re solid, though just one set of gear on everything but mesmer who I carry a running set for.

Ashen.2907:

Actually you described it as pay to win twice before your first use of the phrase pay for equality and all three came after others commented that it was t pay to win. Nice try at backpedalling though.

First time :::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Bag-bank-space-should-cost-gold-not-gems/4799597

Where I said a “form of pay-to-win”. Paying to gain equality with the veteran players while leaving the rest of the new players in the dust is a form of pay to win.

Second time:::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Bag-bank-space-should-cost-gold-not-gems/4799636

Where immediately following “Pay To win” I said “Technically, Pay to Equality”. So, even then, I didn’t specifically call it Pay To Win, and every time I mentioned it after, well, its just easier to say Pay to Win, instead of Pay to Equality, or Pay to Advantage, or Pay to slightly larger time advantage than the other guy.

See, I can pedal Backwards, Forward, and through time too, and do it better. I’ll use my trademark phrase for this thread. Try again.

Linken.6345:

…snip…

Your problem is assuming there is only a person A and a person B actually.

There should be a Person A, a Person B, and a person C in your example.

Person C was an early adopter to the car, and was able to get away with it for 500 dollars and it took him a month to scrape together 500 dollars. 6 months later….Person A and B were late, and had to pay 1000 dollars for it. Well, Person B had a way to secure extra funding. He used some other form of currency and through exchange rates, was able to buy the car immediately. Poor Person A, not only has to pay 1000 dollars for the car, but has to work twice as long as person C to get it, meaning, person B is equal with person C, and have a two month advantage over person A.

Well, Person A is driving the white car and wants to enter the free for all races. Well, Person B and Person C have a couple dozen wins under their belt, and were able to upgrade to the Green, Yellow, and Purple cars, which, while not much better than person A’s white car, is still better, and the tiniest fraction of handling ability or horsepower matter in a race.

Person B and Person C wouldn’t be disqualified for driving an illegal car, because the person who sold them these ‘illegal’ cars is the same person who sold them the white car and is the same person who is running the races.

And even if the race were to have equal cars and be determined by skill and skill alone, Person C has the biggest advantage being a veteran, but person B has an advantage over person A because person A only recently got the car, while Person B had it for awhile.

Pay to Equality with Person C, and Pay to Advantage over rookie Person A (still pay to win of a sort.)

phys.7689:

Main problem though is, cant salvage rares with it.

Could you clarify the following statement in your post? You can salvage rares with the Copper Salvage-o-matic.

I think you either should have said that “you won’t salvage rares with it” or that “people shouldn’t salvage rares with it”.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Main problem though is, cant salvage rares with it.

Could you clarify the following statement in your post? You can salvage rares with the Copper Salvage-o-matic.

I think you either should have said that “you won’t salvage rares with it” or that “people shouldn’t salvage rares with it”.

you are correct, you can, it just is a bad idea.

oh yeah, i forgot, when it comes to manufacturing, it is a huge advantage. Lets say you are buying tons of mats for making something else, or gambling in the mystic forge, or salvaging for resale.

huge advantage, that can effect your profits.
of course you can do it with out it, just takes longer.

Chrispy.5641:

Well, Person A is driving the white car and wants to enter the free for all races. Well, Person B and Person C have a couple dozen wins under their belt, and were able to upgrade to the Green, Yellow, and Purple cars, which, while not much better than person A’s white car, is still better, and the tiniest fraction of handling ability or horsepower matter in a race.

I was with you until the bold part. Why are the different colors “better”?

Are you using an Exotic vs Ascended analogy here? You can’t buy Ascended gear with gold, so how would that factor in?

Since there is an obvious cap to gear/items that can be utilized in WvW, the advantage isn’t so much on the competitive side, but rather if everyone was starting at level 1 with no money. The person who buys gems, converts to gold, will be able to get himself geared up and on a competitively even playing field (gear/item wise) to other WvWers faster than someone who is also starting from scratch but earns money the regular way.

This is really the only case where you could argue “pay to win”. And even then, you are paying to accelerate progress to the limits (level, gear, food) that everyone can achieve. Once you have all of those maxed out, there is no advantage to having additional funds.

Others would argue that the guy that didn’t buy gems to convert to gold could still achieve the same things eventually. But it would be hard to say they would necessarily be able to do it as fast as someone who just bought gold. And progress speed is a type of advantage.

But that said…in the context of competitive WvW, I wouldn’t be able to even compare these two as the guy starting from scratch at level one isn’t involved in competitive WvW. You would have to compare someone who bought gold to someone who is actively in competitive WvW already, at which point there is no distinct advantage to buying gems. You couldn’t “pay to win” competitive WvW, as it were. You could “pay to win” the speed at which you could progress to becoming competitive, but having a bunch of money won’t give you any advantage over a competitive player who doesn’t buy gems.

So it does beg the question, is that “pay to win” if you are just accelerating progress. You mentioned it was a form of “pay to win” but that sounds like more of an opinion than anything else. To me, “pay to win” means someone who pays money has a distinct advantage over someone who does not pay money when in the context of the content in which they are competing.

Jerus.4350:

Why is no one talking about the Copper Salvage-o-matic? There’s your true p2w right there!

I’m fine with my current bag space at just full 20 slots on all my alts, but that thing… not having to buy salvage kits and take up half a bag for those… man, how are people not up in arms about that thing?

While I have one now but most NPC vendors who will buy junk also sell basic salvage kits. At most I gained one or two slots for spare basic salvage kits. I never retained enough items to bring back to a TP that those slots used for spares impacted my carrying capacity for a session.

The copper fed simply lets me ignore seeing if I need to buy some more BSKs as well as never running out because I forgot to restock.

Behellagh.1468:

Jerus.4350:

Why is no one talking about the Copper Salvage-o-matic? There’s your true p2w right there!

I’m fine with my current bag space at just full 20 slots on all my alts, but that thing… not having to buy salvage kits and take up half a bag for those… man, how are people not up in arms about that thing?

While I have one now but most NPC vendors who will buy junk also sell basic salvage kits. At most I gained one or two slots for spare basic salvage kits. I never retained enough items to bring back to a TP that those slots used for spares impacted my carrying capacity for a session.

The copper fed simply lets me ignore seeing if I need to buy some more BSKs as well as never running out because I forgot to restock.

eh at one point i was doing massive salavges from tp stocks, it was a hassle to return to the vendor constantly, and a hassle to buy new ones, even in rata sum where its pretty close.
with the copperfed, i was able to essentially stand at the tp and salavage mass quantities without returning.
i will admit i have less bad space than many, so its more of an issue for me than them, but yeah its a pretty noticeable effect.

i noticed such a big difference when i forgot to put it in my bank and was playing lowbies without it as well, i had to let a lot of items hit the floor. They too didnt have a lot f bag space, though.

point is it really is an advantage, in either case. Its not the end of the world, but its definately an advantage.

Behellagh.1468:

Jerus.4350:

Why is no one talking about the Copper Salvage-o-matic? There’s your true p2w right there!

I’m fine with my current bag space at just full 20 slots on all my alts, but that thing… not having to buy salvage kits and take up half a bag for those… man, how are people not up in arms about that thing?

While I have one now but most NPC vendors who will buy junk also sell basic salvage kits. At most I gained one or two slots for spare basic salvage kits. I never retained enough items to bring back to a TP that those slots used for spares impacted my carrying capacity for a session.

The copper fed simply lets me ignore seeing if I need to buy some more BSKs as well as never running out because I forgot to restock.

I can go through a good 7+ before I hit a merchant again, though I usually let my inventory literally fill with minor runes/sigils and junk before I hit a merch. A full dungeon tour on an alt I’ll usually end up running out of my 7+ sets of them. I have to remember to slip in and say at COE buy them from the guy up top, it’s something I have to keep in mind and for me it cleared up 6 spots and a lot less hassle. Which is what this thread really comes down to, the amount of hassle more space removes. To me my Salvage-o-matic does it far better than an extra 15-20 slots, I have an opened up inventory on my 2 main chars, I rarely utilize the extra bag space because I simply salvage things as I go and hit a merchant the same times I would on my alts. It is nice for clearing 100s of champ bags at a time though

Yeah i actually agree with everything you said there, i am sure there is so many like me who dont really want to waste real money on something like that, i work hard to get “some” money, and most of them i need for school, i am not a poor man neither rich, but i dont take money from my parents, so i really count every coin i spend on these kind of things, so yeah, i dont mind if they make it for gold, doubt it though… if they wanted to do that they wouldnt have waited too long, they would have changed it long time ago.

Note: i gave my situation as an example not to talk about it.

Draknar.5748:

Chrispy.5641:

Well, Person A is driving the white car and wants to enter the free for all races. Well, Person B and Person C have a couple dozen wins under their belt, and were able to upgrade to the Green, Yellow, and Purple cars, which, while not much better than person A’s white car, is still better, and the tiniest fraction of handling ability or horsepower matter in a race.

I was with you until the bold part. Why are the different colors “better”?

Are you using an Exotic vs Ascended analogy here? You can’t buy Ascended gear with gold, so how would that factor in?

Since there is an obvious cap to gear/items that can be utilized in WvW, the advantage isn’t so much on the competitive side, but rather if everyone was starting at level 1 with no money. The person who buys gems, converts to gold, will be able to get himself geared up and on a competitively even playing field (gear/item wise) to other WvWers faster than someone who is also starting from scratch but earns money the regular way.

This is really the only case where you could argue “pay to win”. And even then, you are paying to accelerate progress to the limits (level, gear, food) that everyone can achieve. Once you have all of those maxed out, there is no advantage to having additional funds.

Others would argue that the guy that didn’t buy gems to convert to gold could still achieve the same things eventually. But it would be hard to say they would necessarily be able to do it as fast as someone who just bought gold. And progress speed is a type of advantage.

But that said…in the context of competitive WvW, I wouldn’t be able to even compare these two as the guy starting from scratch at level one isn’t involved in competitive WvW. You would have to compare someone who bought gold to someone who is actively in competitive WvW already, at which point there is no distinct advantage to buying gems. You couldn’t “pay to win” competitive WvW, as it were. You could “pay to win” the speed at which you could progress to becoming competitive, but having a bunch of money won’t give you any advantage over a competitive player who doesn’t buy gems.

So it does beg the question, is that “pay to win” if you are just accelerating progress. You mentioned it was a form of “pay to win” but that sounds like more of an opinion than anything else. To me, “pay to win” means someone who pays money has a distinct advantage over someone who does not pay money when in the context of the content in which they are competing.

just because there is an upper limit to an advantage doesnt mean its not an advantage.

i mean by that definition, nothing in real life offers an advantage to the wealthy, because hey, you can earn enough for that eventually.

If they develop new sneakers that give you .1 second faster aceleration, and increase average velocity by .005 meters per second, and the cost 500 dollars, wouldnt the guy with them have an advantage over the guy who doesnt? just because he could eventually earn 500 dollars doesnt mean the rich guy doesnt have an advantage.
lets put it this way, untill the other guy can earn 500 dollars, or get the shoes by some other means, he has an advantage.

In wvw, the advantage to having insane amount of gold is capped, yes, but the team with more gold resources, has an advantage over those with less.
more food buffs, better gear, more options for builds a HUGE advantage in seige. Generally this evens out among the servers and the people willing to spend, but if you had a server that was willing to spend 50% more than another server on average, there would definately be an advantage if other things were similar.

quote Chrispy.5641

There should be a Person A, a Person B, and a person C in your example.

Person C was an early adopter to the car, and was able to get away with it for 500 dollars and it took him a month to scrape together 500 dollars. 6 months later….Person A and B were late, and had to pay 1000 dollars for it. Well, Person B had a way to secure extra funding. He used some other form of currency and through exchange rates, was able to buy the car immediately. Poor Person A, not only has to pay 1000 dollars for the car, but has to work twice as long as person C to get it, meaning, person B is equal with person C, and have a two month advantage over person A.

Well, Person A is driving the white car and wants to enter the free for all races. Well, Person B and Person C have a couple dozen wins under their belt, and were able to upgrade to the Green, Yellow, and Purple cars, which, while not much better than person A’s white car, is still better, and the tiniest fraction of handling ability or horsepower matter in a race.

Person B and Person C wouldn’t be disqualified for driving an illegal car, because the person who sold them these ‘illegal’ cars is the same person who sold them the white car and is the same person who is running the races.[/quote]

Quote Draknar.5748
Think of it like a race where everyone has the same car. The car costs $1000. Person A scrimped and saved and bought the $1000 car, cleaned out his account. Person B was given $5000 from his uncle to buy the car, but only needed $1000, so has $4000 left over in his account. Now they race, the exact same car. Explain how person B has an advantage in this race.

Can you read the bold part there bud? Our whole argument have been food and nurishment not gear in anyway that you want to stear it into, there is only white quality.
And as i said before those few stat numbers u get from food and/or nurishment womt make you win.

Still back to your argument that 160 bag slots win over 80 bag slots how? when you can pop into wvw and sell from anywere in the world or insta sell on trading post.’
If you dont straight up salvage it all.
What items are so valuable that you have to keep them in your inventory at all?

Edit
Your also asuming person A dident start before person B and they start with the car at the same time due to diffrent starting times.
Edit 2
Getting hard to reply to eachother now without it becoming a big wall of text, also quite suprised it havent got closed yet consdering how we derailed it.

Linken.6345:

Quote Draknar.5748
Think of it like a race where everyone has the same car. The car costs $1000. Person A scrimped and saved and bought the $1000 car, cleaned out his account. Person B was given $5000 from his uncle to buy the car, but only needed $1000, so has $4000 left over in his account. Now they race, the exact same car. Explain how person B has an advantage in this race.

Can you read the bold part there bud? Our whole argument have been food and nurishment not gear in anyway that you want to stear it into, there is only white quality.
And as i said before those few stat numbers u get from food and/or nurishment womt make you win.

Still back to your argument that 160 bag slots win over 80 bag slots how? when you can pop into wvw and sell from anywere in the world or insta sell on trading post.’
If you dont straight up salvage it all.
What items are so valuable that you have to keep them in your inventory at all?

Edit
Your also asuming person A dident start before person B and they start with the car at the same time due to diffrent starting times.
Edit 2
Getting hard to reply to eachother now without it becoming a big wall of text, also quite suprised it havent got closed yet consdering how we derailed it.

I’m not your bud, guy.

I was referring to food. Food buffs were the car in this case, but it is an analogy that would extend to anything. I think you might have meant to quote someone’s response to my quote. All this quoting is getting out of control lol.

Someone said that the guy who buys gold has a distinct advantage in competitive WvW because they can buy more food, giving them better stats. I was saying that competitive WvWers have food already, you can only eat one food at a time. If you don’t eat food while in WvW, then you can’t really call yourself a competitive WvWer, because food gives you a pretty substantial buff. Then you’re more of a casual WvWer.

Even if that person were only to make enough money to buy one piece of food every 30min, it would be the same outcome as if someone had 1000s of gold and had unlimited food. Both players have the same food buff and can only eat food at a specific rate (whatever the duration is).

Having a bunch of extra food (which is all a bunch of money would get you in WvW food-wise) isn’t an advantage competitively as long as all of the other players have the same food access, which they do.

So, you could say that someone who buys gold, and outfits themselves with the best gear and food would have an advantage over a casual WvWer. But not from a money standpoint, simply from a player standpoint, because a competitive WvWer who didn’t buy gold would have the same advantage over a casual WvWer (top end gear and food). Money is moot in competitive play in this game.

I will admit that on a meta scale, having more money does give you an advantage, in terms of siege availability, putting plates of food out to save others from spending money, etc. In big picture the most well-funded side, player numbers and skill being equal, would have some kind of advantage.

Then again, you don’t need to buy gold in order to achieve any of this. So again, it’s hard to claim P2W versus P2equality.

I have no problem with P2equality. I earn my stuff, and if someone wants to pay money to essentially catch up to my gear/food, more power to them. They won’t have the years of experience I do. Can’t buy that with gold. I would still beat them.

TL:DR GW2 is p2equality, not p2w, and there’s nothing wrong with p2equality because when all is equal, skill is what decides the winner. Which is how GW2 works.

Draknar.5748:

Linken.6345:

Quote Draknar.5748
Think of it like a race where everyone has the same car. The car costs $1000. Person A scrimped and saved and bought the $1000 car, cleaned out his account. Person B was given $5000 from his uncle to buy the car, but only needed $1000, so has $4000 left over in his account. Now they race, the exact same car. Explain how person B has an advantage in this race.

Can you read the bold part there bud? Our whole argument have been food and nurishment not gear in anyway that you want to stear it into, there is only white quality.
And as i said before those few stat numbers u get from food and/or nurishment womt make you win.

Still back to your argument that 160 bag slots win over 80 bag slots how? when you can pop into wvw and sell from anywere in the world or insta sell on trading post.’
If you dont straight up salvage it all.
What items are so valuable that you have to keep them in your inventory at all?

Edit
Your also asuming person A dident start before person B and they start with the car at the same time due to diffrent starting times.
Edit 2
Getting hard to reply to eachother now without it becoming a big wall of text, also quite suprised it havent got closed yet consdering how we derailed it.

I’m not your bud, guy.

I was referring to food. Food buffs were the car in this case, but it is an analogy that would extend to anything. I think you might have meant to quote someone’s response to my quote. All this quoting is getting out of control lol.

Someone said that the guy who buys gold has a distinct advantage in competitive WvW because they can buy more food, giving them better stats. I was saying that competitive WvWers have food already, you can only eat one food at a time. If you don’t eat food while in WvW, then you can’t really call yourself a competitive WvWer, because food gives you a pretty substantial buff. Then you’re more of a casual WvWer.

Even if that person were only to make enough money to buy one piece of food every 30min, it would be the same outcome as if someone had 1000s of gold and had unlimited food. Both players have the same food buff and can only eat food at a specific rate (whatever the duration is).

Having a bunch of extra food (which is all a bunch of money would get you in WvW food-wise) isn’t an advantage competitively as long as all of the other players have the same food access, which they do.

So, you could say that someone who buys gold, and outfits themselves with the best gear and food would have an advantage over a casual WvWer. But not from a money standpoint, simply from a player standpoint, because a competitive WvWer who didn’t buy gold would have the same advantage over a casual WvWer (top end gear and food). Money is moot in competitive play in this game.

I will admit that on a meta scale, having more money does give you an advantage, in terms of siege availability, putting plates of food out to save others from spending money, etc. In big picture the most well-funded side, player numbers and skill being equal, would have some kind of advantage.

Then again, you don’t need to buy gold in order to achieve any of this. So again, it’s hard to claim P2W versus P2equality.

I have no problem with P2equality. I earn my stuff, and if someone wants to pay money to essentially catch up to my gear/food, more power to them. They won’t have the years of experience I do. Can’t buy that with gold. I would still beat them.

TL:DR GW2 is p2equality, not p2w, and there’s nothing wrong with p2equality because when all is equal, skill is what decides the winner. Which is how GW2 works.

Your quote is for the first guy i quote to read since he conveniently skiped the first sentence and then keep brining gear into the conversation somehow trying to justify that you need food the same way you need gear.

Edit
I killed enemies in WvW with food without having it myself clearly since its borderline pay to win according to some people i must use hacks or something.

I am actually perfectly fine with spending gems for bank space. I am however completely baffled by the per-character bag slots. If they made them per-account, I’d probably max them out. The way things are now, they are too expensive on the gems-per-space basis as I have to buy them for every character. I don’t see why they can’t make an alternative of, say 1000-1200 gems per bag slot unlock for entire account. That way people with single character can keep using the current model, and people with 3+ characters would buy account unlocks.

And yes, useless inventory clutter has to go. Way too many items which are obtained too often to not have a slowly incrementing stack of in your inventory (no point in using these one at a time as you just get them back and have to rearrange inventory…again).

phys.7689:

tons of gold is great advantage in WvW, and it was intended to be.
With infinite gold, you can probably get a full map of people playing on your dime.
You can have as much HQ seige as you want
you can outfit all of your soldiers in ascended
you can maintain non stop food buff trays at every castle.

Technically, the top one? You can do with real money outside the game. Always could. HQ siege? I understand the Guild ones are much better and easier to get your hands on.

Outfit all soldiers in ascended? Sure. And when they play like trash because they think they have the best edge, and get smashed, it’ll be hilarious to watch the QQ. I don’t know why people still pretend it’s a huge advantage worth paying for. Not when your enemy can win WvW by simply, well, not being where you are and evading a zerg they don’t want to fight. Or splitting coverage.

Finally, and you didn’t talk about upgrades. Sad. I expected that to be your first point.

Bringing up spvp, is a bit pointless as it is the only facet of the game designed not to give any advantages at all.

Yup, so that’s a nice chunk of the game infinite gold/loot space isn’t important in. Glad you noticed.

but yes, gold is in the game, so that players can trade in game value, by having infinite gold, you can get everything of value that players can trade. Some things of value actually are advantageous.

Of course some things of value are. But how much of that can be purchased with infinite gold which can’t be purchased with finite gold?

phys.7689:

tons of gold is great advantage in WvW, and it was intended to be.
With infinite gold, you can probably get a full map of people playing on your dime.
You can have as much HQ seige as you want
you can outfit all of your soldiers in ascended
you can maintain non stop food buff trays at every castle.

This so silly an argument it is really hard to fathom. Maybe there are some very dedicated WvW guilds out there gathering ressources for this but… it is so easy for the individual player to get ascended armor and personal food buffs.

Welcome to Anet’s gemstore. The fact that these things are tied to gems and not gold is no coincidence. I agree with you, but at the end of the day its not going to change.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Welcome to Anet’s gemstore. The fact that these things are tied to gems and not gold is no coincidence. I agree with you, but at the end of the day its not going to change.

It’s either this or pay a sub.

Anet wouldn’t want a sub model. They’d make less money that way. Short term profit from whales on a cycle earn them more money than longer term investment through subscriptions.

u do realize this is a totally irrelevant post seeing as gold and gems can be exchanged….they are the SAME THING

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Anet wouldn’t want a sub model. They’d make less money that way. Short term profit from whales on a cycle earn them more money than longer term investment through subscriptions.

they earned like what? The equivalent of 250K subs this quarter? They could most definitely hold a bigger population than that if they forced a sub on us. But for a B2P model this game is very fair.

Tom Gore.4035:

Personally, I find GW2’s gemstore and gem purchases incredibly fairly priced, most of them anyway.

LOL! No.

Buying armor and outfit skins isn’t that bad. When it was character-based it was rather greedy, but now it’s better.

But the way to buy weapons is a joke. You have to use a lottery system hoping eventually you’ll get enough tickets to buy a skin, but you don’t know how much you need to spend in order to get a given weapon. It feels like a cheap scam from F2P games, not something from a buy to play game.

Mirta.5029:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Welcome to Anet’s gemstore. The fact that these things are tied to gems and not gold is no coincidence. I agree with you, but at the end of the day its not going to change.

It’s either this or pay a sub.

The original Guild Wars does not have a Gem Store under a lottery system. In fact, for a long time it didn’t even have a store.

Mirta.5029:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Anet wouldn’t want a sub model. They’d make less money that way. Short term profit from whales on a cycle earn them more money than longer term investment through subscriptions.

they earned like what? The equivalent of 250K subs this quarter? They could most definitely hold a bigger population than that if they forced a sub on us. But for a B2P model this game is very fair.

I like GW2, but I sure as hell wouldn’t pay a Sub for it. Not unless they started coming out with new sets of dungeons every couple of months like subscription based games do.

Test.8734:

But the way to buy weapons is a joke. You have to use a lottery system hoping eventually you’ll get enough tickets to buy a skin, but you don’t know how much you need to spend in order to get a given weapon. It feels like a cheap scam from F2P games, not something from a buy to play game.

Very true. I’m not a fan of the BL claim tickets/scraps system. If I was guaranteed one scrap per key, then we’d be talking, but the fact it is random has deterred me from buying keys multiple times. Just can’t justify the money for RNG thing. I was burned once, and never again.

Chrispy.5641:

Or you could read the thread before the white knights showed up and see that, no, I don’t actually have a P2W perspective at all. I specifically made the comparison that this entire system is “Pay to equality”, not necessarily pay to win, where the newer players are specifically at a disadvantage compared to veteran, who enjoyed buying inventory space at a vastly cheaper (in-game) rate 2.5 years ago compared to now, even if the real world rate was the same. It originally costed hundreds of silver to max. out your inventory space instead of hundreds of gold. Instead of taking a few weeks to max. everything out, it now takes several months.

The new player buying everything to be equal with the veterans will then have an advantage over the other relatively new players who don’t buy anything, which is mostly what this whole argument has been about, not necessarily about paying to win over everyone, but the ones who aren’t yet at the level on the plateau with everyone. And it definitely hasn’t been about paying some money, and getting a magical “YOU WIN!” graphic thrown in their face (Which is apparently what it takes for anyone to technically win anything today and can’t be extended to include advantages in a game where no one can actually win because there is no technical end)

Unfortunately, White knights being white knights, and being blind when they defend a game, lost sight of that. Its okay, I decided to run with the argument anyways to see where it goes, and so far, I have not been disappointed by the mostly hilarious responses. Keep going, please!

Your argument while having some merit completely fails to consider a very important aspect. That the gold to gem ratio is based on the in game economy.

The reason that getting all those gems to max your bank/bag slots was cheaper then was because of the initial, unstable economy. At that time there were a lot of people buying gems and A LOT less total gold in the economy. Therefore the 50 silver back then would be like 5 gold now.

A new player today who levels his first character to level 80 will likely have somewhere in the neighborhood of 4000% more gold than they would have had on release, assuming they use the auction house when more profitable. This is because at this stage in the games life certain materials have altered values based on game mechanics. Mid level crafting materials for example are worth a lot more proportionally to the early life of the game, this is likely due to scrolls of experience allowing veterans to skip mid levels if they choose to as well as an increased number of level 80 zones.

There is also the other pieces that affects the gold to gem ratio. There are less people buying and selling gems now. As with all games there were more players at launch than there are now. Coupled with the fact that 2 years later people have gotten quite good at finding places to farm inflating gold (gold created and added to the economy) that many do not feel the need to convert cash bought gems into gold.

When you maintain demand, decrease supply, and inflate the alternative currency you end up with a massive increase in value. Many people with strong economic skills understood this in the early days and bought gems with every copper they had.

Last ANet is responsible for making the game profitable. Since you can clearly make an argument for bag/bank space being highly important even to the point of pay to win. Then clearly others must be able to build such and argument and therefore it is the perfect cash shop item as players rarely compare their worth to others in bag space which decreases the likelihood of pay to win complaints.

Jerus.4350:

I like GW2, but I sure as hell wouldn’t pay a Sub for it. Not unless they started coming out with new sets of dungeons every couple of months like subscription based games do.

what subscription based game does it? Concerning free, WoW does one every 6 months at most, everything else is in payed expansions.
Concerning Wildstar they’re doing quarterly updates, instead of updates every 2 weeks like here.
Concerning Elder Scrolls Online I don’t remember them doing any meaty content updates either.

Linken.6345:

Chrispy.5641

There should be a Person A, a Person B, and a person C in your example.

Person C was an early adopter to the car, and was able to get away with it for 500 dollars and it took him a month to scrape together 500 dollars. 6 months later….Person A and B were late, and had to pay 1000 dollars for it. Well, Person B had a way to secure extra funding. He used some other form of currency and through exchange rates, was able to buy the car immediately. Poor Person A, not only has to pay 1000 dollars for the car, but has to work twice as long as person C to get it, meaning, person B is equal with person C, and have a two month advantage over person A.

Well, Person A is driving the white car and wants to enter the free for all races. Well, Person B and Person C have a couple dozen wins under their belt, and were able to upgrade to the Green, Yellow, and Purple cars, which, while not much better than person A’s white car, is still better, and the tiniest fraction of handling ability or horsepower matter in a race.

Person B and Person C wouldn’t be disqualified for driving an illegal car, because the person who sold them these ‘illegal’ cars is the same person who sold them the white car and is the same person who is running the races.

Draknar.5748

Think of it like a race where everyone has the same car. The car costs $1000. Person A scrimped and saved and bought the $1000 car, cleaned out his account. Person B was given $5000 from his uncle to buy the car, but only needed $1000, so has $4000 left over in his account. Now they race, the exact same car. Explain how person B has an advantage in this race.

Can you read the bold part there bud? Our whole argument have been food and nurishment not gear in anyway that you want to stear it into, there is only white quality.
And as i said before those few stat numbers u get from food and/or nurishment womt make you win.

(cleaned up your quotes a little so the tags were right)
Ah, but you failed to quote the most relevant part of my post in respect to that reply ::

And even if the race were to have equal cars and be determined by skill and skill alone, Person C has the biggest advantage being a veteran, but person B has an advantage over person A because person A only recently got the car, while Person B had it for awhile.

I made the much longer wall of text because I tried to tie in several things already discussed, but, walls of text are what they are….

Linken.6345:

Still back to your argument that 160 bag slots win over 80 bag slots how? when you can pop into wvw and sell from anywere in the world or insta sell on trading post.’
If you dont straight up salvage it all.
What items are so valuable that you have to keep them in your inventory at all?

Using the most basic example are level 80 blues and greens. Weapons or Armor, it doesn’t matter. Of course you salvage the light armor for the silk, which is worth more than the item, especially on the uncommon chance you get multiple silk scraps. For the rest of the items, salvaging does not give you the same value as if you just sold the item to a vendor. Wood, Mithril, and especially Leather isn’t worth as much. The small chance of rare materials does not offset the money gained if you just sold everything (except the light armor)

Since everything matters, even the smallest amounts of gold….yeah, I’m not going to salvage that unless I run out of space and have to (which is less profitable than running to a vendor to sell it all)

Draknar.5748:

So it does beg the question, is that “pay to win” if you are just accelerating progress. You mentioned it was a form of “pay to win” but that sounds like more of an opinion than anything else. To me, “pay to win” means someone who pays money has a distinct advantage over someone who does not pay money when in the context of the content in which they are competing.

If its my opinion, then its my opinion. Who cares if its different from yours or the next dozen people? Why does anyone question any opinion if they are opinions and not fact?

gaspara.4079:

…snip…

I would have to say the economy of GW2 is considerably more complex than that, and that while the costs of gems has increased significantly, there isn’t a significantly equal increase in gold per hour. The reason for that is that many items have a set vendor value, regardless of the value players put on it, and you can still make more gold on many items just selling them to vendors than salvage/throwing on the trading post. Its more complex than that even, since there are a lot of items that have risen and fallen in price over the years completely free of this so called inflation (Lodestones for example)

Chrispy.5641:

Draknar.5748:

So it does beg the question, is that “pay to win” if you are just accelerating progress. You mentioned it was a form of “pay to win” but that sounds like more of an opinion than anything else. To me, “pay to win” means someone who pays money has a distinct advantage over someone who does not pay money when in the context of the content in which they are competing.

If its my opinion, then its my opinion. Who cares if its different from yours or the next dozen people? Why does anyone question any opinion if they are opinions and not fact?

Nobody cares about your opinion or mine. You stated something as though it were fact. I clarified that it sounded more like an opinion, I then gave my opinion, so now we move on.

People don’t usually question opinions (other than “why is that your opinion”—which is a valid question); they typically offer their own, usually opposing opinion, and then an explanation as to why that is their opinion.

You just have to be clear that what you are stating is opinion, otherwise people take it as though you are stating fact, in which case you could definitely be questioned.

This game is the least P2W game ive ever played. You want pay to win? play World of Tanks when it was back in version 5.0 or some similar long ago version number, where those with money could buy gold rounds and had/have way more penetration than a standard round(at least till they get nerfed soon, because everyone can buy them now). That is pay 2 win. This game is Pay 2…Convenience? i guess? Extra bag slots are a convenience, bank slots are a convenience, infinite mining tools(with the exception of the watchwork one, and that was a stupid idea) are a convenience.

Everything in the gem store in this game is not needed to be equal to the next person. You do not need bag slots to win against another player.

Buying bag slots? Wooooo you can carry 20 more items at most with a 20 slot bag!! Woopty doo! do i buy them for my mains(have 2 of them)? yes, because i forget to run to towns in between farming and dungeon runs and map exploration. I got tired of my inventory filling up and having to throw things away.

Draknar.5748:

Chrispy.5641:

Draknar.5748:

So it does beg the question, is that “pay to win” if you are just accelerating progress. You mentioned it was a form of “pay to win” but that sounds like more of an opinion than anything else. To me, “pay to win” means someone who pays money has a distinct advantage over someone who does not pay money when in the context of the content in which they are competing.

If its my opinion, then its my opinion. Who cares if its different from yours or the next dozen people? Why does anyone question any opinion if they are opinions and not fact?

Nobody cares about your opinion or mine. You stated something as though it were fact. I clarified that it sounded more like an opinion, I then gave my opinion, so now we move on.

People don’t usually question opinions (other than “why is that your opinion”—which is a valid question); they typically offer their own, usually opposing opinion, and then an explanation as to why that is their opinion.

You just have to be clear that what you are stating is opinion, otherwise people take it as though you are stating fact, in which case you could definitely be questioned.

If it sounds like an opinion, then it probably is, besides the fact that nothing anyone says about this game should ever be interpreted as fact unless it comes from the mouth/red post of an Anet dev. (or you have a reliable source like the wiki)

Chrispy.5641:

gaspara.4079:

…snip…

I would have to say the economy of GW2 is considerably more complex than that, and that while the costs of gems has increased significantly, there isn’t a significantly equal increase in gold per hour. The reason for that is that many items have a set vendor value, regardless of the value players put on it, and you can still make more gold on many items just selling them to vendors than salvage/throwing on the trading post. Its more complex than that even, since there are a lot of items that have risen and fallen in price over the years completely free of this so called inflation (Lodestones for example)

Yes, it is very complex, but even the most complex economies are also bound by the simple economic rules such as supply and demand. The auction house is the source of the additional gold/time, vendor prices have always been the rock bottom but there are many things that will grant increased profit by being sold on the auction house. However as with most economies to maximize that increase you need starting investment money.

Test.8734:

The original Guild Wars does not have a Gem Store under a lottery system. In fact, for a long time it didn’t even have a store.

For a long time?

The in-game store in GW1 was released on July 28, 2006, that is just a few months after Factions and before both Nightfall and Eye in the North.

There was also that little fact that you could outright buy power and could only pay with real money, that people always seems to overlook.

Chrispy.5641:

If it sounds like an opinion, then it probably is, besides the fact that nothing anyone says about this game should ever be interpreted as fact unless it comes from the mouth/red post of an Anet dev. (or you have a reliable source like the wiki)

That’s a fair policy. But I don’t think it’s necessary to assume everything everyone says on the forum is merely opinion. Sometimes facts are indeed stated.

The whole P2W argument though stems from people stating as fact that GW2 is P2W. That’s why it is such a heated topic. Basically the “Is to!” “Is not!” argument.

Mirta.5029:

Jerus.4350:

I like GW2, but I sure as hell wouldn’t pay a Sub for it. Not unless they started coming out with new sets of dungeons every couple of months like subscription based games do.

what subscription based game does it? Concerning free, WoW does one every 6 months at most, everything else is in payed expansions.
Concerning Wildstar they’re doing quarterly updates, instead of updates every 2 weeks like here.
Concerning Elder Scrolls Online I don’t remember them doing any meaty content updates either.

2 week schedule is a lie, Its a 2 week schedule for 6 -8 weeks than a break. and the amount of content per those two weeks doesnt add up.

and we havent actually got a new dungeon/dungeon like content probably since fractured.

but it is true that they have to make money some how. And it is also true that you get a decent value for your initial purchase.

but i would probably pay more for more actual game of substance. The expansion may provide that, we shall see. I honestly dont know though, havent seen them deliver much on par with what the game delivered in the first 4 months in a long time.

and yeah ffxiv does it;
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/patchnote_log/
about every 3 months you are looking at 3 new dungeons, a 1-4 new 8 mans 24 mans, 2-4 new trials (boss events) assorted new quests, new armors, crafting recipes, etc

lordkrall.7241:

Test.8734:

The original Guild Wars does not have a Gem Store under a lottery system. In fact, for a long time it didn’t even have a store.

For a long time?

The in-game store in GW1 was released on July 28, 2006, that is just a few months after Factions and before both Nightfall and Eye in the North.

There was also that little fact that you could outright buy power and could only pay with real money, that people always seems to overlook.

^

You could get the bonus pack that gave you better than starter weapons with unique skins. There was the imp NPC with fire ele powers that you could call up till you hit level 20 that was a huge help in doing low level content. Instead of doing quests and earning skills one by one, you could buy the skill packs that unlocked skills. A pet unlock pack for your ranger. PvP skills and armor was available. There were bonus missions (with unique weapon skins) only available thru the store. Extra storage panes in the store. Mercenaries, NPCs with skills, weapons, and armor you could personally and selectively set up and use on missions. And of course, cosmetics such as outfits not obtainable in game. Anyone who thinks Guild Wars 2 is pay to win should consider the Guild Wars 1 store and compare.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store

phys.7689:

2 week schedule is a lie, Its a 2 week schedule for 6 -8 weeks than a break. and the amount of content per those two weeks doesnt add up.

and we havent actually got a new dungeon/dungeon like content probably since fractured.

but it is true that they have to make money some how. And it is also true that you get a decent value for your initial purchase.

but i would probably pay more for more actual game of substance. The expansion may provide that, we shall see. I honestly dont know though, havent seen them deliver much on par with what the game delivered in the first 4 months in a long time.

14 fractals,
3 new zones,
QA improvements,
5 hours worth of story
and lots of temporary events

That’s what we got in 2 years for free. Even WoW just locks it up in expansions. And once again, which game provides you with new dungeons on a regular basis?

Mirta.5029:

phys.7689:

2 week schedule is a lie, Its a 2 week schedule for 6 -8 weeks than a break. and the amount of content per those two weeks doesnt add up.

and we havent actually got a new dungeon/dungeon like content probably since fractured.

but it is true that they have to make money some how. And it is also true that you get a decent value for your initial purchase.

but i would probably pay more for more actual game of substance. The expansion may provide that, we shall see. I honestly dont know though, havent seen them deliver much on par with what the game delivered in the first 4 months in a long time.

14 fractals,
3 new zones,
QA improvements,
5 hours worth of story
and lots of temporary events

That’s what we got in 2 years for free. Even WoW just locks it up in expansions. And once again, which game provides you with new dungeons on a regular basis?

fractals were cool, but we got most of those 4 months after release, and the rest like a year ago.
Quality of life improvements were like 50/50 for me.
5 hours of story is not a lot, thats 3 months in ffxiv

they had some cool stuff, like marionette, and i think it was worth 60 bucks, but most of their interesting content was like a year ago, and the far majority was on release.

and i amended my last post with ffxiv.
look at what they have added in a year, like 12 dungeons 12 raids 2 24 mans, massive amounts of quests, like 10 boss events in game obtainable armors, a new class new crafting recipes etc.

and thats only one year of updates

Mirta.5029:

Jerus.4350:

I like GW2, but I sure as hell wouldn’t pay a Sub for it. Not unless they started coming out with new sets of dungeons every couple of months like subscription based games do.

what subscription based game does it? Concerning free, WoW does one every 6 months at most, everything else is in payed expansions.
Concerning Wildstar they’re doing quarterly updates, instead of updates every 2 weeks like here.
Concerning Elder Scrolls Online I don’t remember them doing any meaty content updates either.

DCUO drops out their DLCs, free if you have a subscription, every 3-4 months, so I guess I should have said few instead of couple months, but yeah.

And yeah, most games have expansions being the big content thing, but at least it’s there. I want to support GW2 but I want to get the content I enjoy in return, they aren’t doing a very good job of that. The scope in which GW2 updates their game is limited almost solely to open world PVE.

Not trying to be a hater, just can’t see myself giving them money for such a limited amount of content. I will say the solo instances in the living story have been really cool, disappointing that they’re so easy, but outside of that they’re really cool.

I guess my point being basically they’d need to broaden their scope and pump out more content if they wanted to go subscription, at least IMO. I think there are a lot of people like me playing simply because “well… it’s free, why not?”

also, as a side note, I think there’s something brilliant about their buy to play model. While many people aren’t feeding money into the game, their presence makes it feel pretty alive 24/7.

phys.7689:

fractals were cool, but we got most of those 4 months after release, and the rest like a year ago.
Quality of life improvements were like 50/50 for me.
5 hours of story is not a lot, thats 3 months in ffxiv

they had some cool stuff, like marionette, and i think it was worth 60 bucks, but most of their interesting content was like a year ago, and the far majority was on release.

and i amended my last post with ffxiv.
look at what they have added in a year, like 12 dungeons 12 raids 2 24 mans, massive amounts of quests, like 10 boss events in game obtainable armors, a new class new crafting recipes etc.

and thats only one year of updates

well I left 9 months ago. In Season 2, 2 out of 3 zones came in, together with all that story. So if FFXIV is offering dungeons every month even, that’s more than any other MMO on the market.

lordkrall.7241:

For a long time?

The in-game store in GW1 was released on July 28, 2006, that is just a few months after Factions and before both Nightfall and Eye in the North.

Yeah, and as of course you have not mentioned, more than one year after the release of Guild Wars. And one year later, in June of 2007, it was still not selling armor skins or weapon skins. And to this day, it still does not have the scam-like lottery system we have in GW2.

lordkrall.7241:

There was also that little fact that you could outright buy power and could only pay with real money, that people always seems to overlook.

People overlook it because it’s not true Unless you think buying a character slot gives you more power, which must make you think GW2 is incredibly pay to win.

Mirta.5029:

That’s what we got in 2 years for free. Even WoW just locks it up in expansions.

You do realize, I hope, that WoW has completely revamped its world for everyone, regardless if they have bought an expansion or not, right? Which is far more than 3 small zones with bad mechanics and the same events repeating all over the map.

Test.8734:

You do realize, I hope, that WoW has completely revamped its world for everyone, regardless if they have bought an expansion or not, right? Which is far more than 3 small zones with bad mechanics and the same events repeating all over the map.

you mean cataclysm? Do you realize that GW2 revamped Lions Arch for everyone, regardless they bought the expansion pack or not right? Without even asking said people if they want their favorite zone destroyed…. That’s exactly how Cataclysm felt.

phys.7689:

Mirta.5029:

phys.7689:

2 week schedule is a lie, Its a 2 week schedule for 6 -8 weeks than a break. and the amount of content per those two weeks doesnt add up.

and we havent actually got a new dungeon/dungeon like content probably since fractured.

but it is true that they have to make money some how. And it is also true that you get a decent value for your initial purchase.

but i would probably pay more for more actual game of substance. The expansion may provide that, we shall see. I honestly dont know though, havent seen them deliver much on par with what the game delivered in the first 4 months in a long time.

14 fractals,
3 new zones,
QA improvements,
5 hours worth of story
and lots of temporary events

That’s what we got in 2 years for free. Even WoW just locks it up in expansions. And once again, which game provides you with new dungeons on a regular basis?

fractals were cool, but we got most of those 4 months after release, and the rest like a year ago.
Quality of life improvements were like 50/50 for me.
5 hours of story is not a lot, thats 3 months in ffxiv

they had some cool stuff, like marionette, and i think it was worth 60 bucks, but most of their interesting content was like a year ago, and the far majority was on release.

and i amended my last post with ffxiv.
look at what they have added in a year, like 12 dungeons 12 raids 2 24 mans, massive amounts of quests, like 10 boss events in game obtainable armors, a new class new crafting recipes etc.

and thats only one year of updates

~~~

The ‘obtainable armors’ thing is interesting, in most games they’re necessary because of progression creep and the loot-focus on the game. The GW2 business model is, in effect, opposed to that, which means that you’re usually going to get new prestige items in different ways than the traditional ‘new-dungeon-new-loot-I’m-the-first-to-get-the-cool-new-set’ setup. (with a few blaring exceptions)

Mirta.5029:

you mean cataclysm? Do you realize that GW2 revamped Lions Arch for everyone, regardless they bought the expansion pack or not right?

Amazing how people can compare revamping one non-combat and questless instance to revamping massive parts of the world. I guess fairy tales are the only argument to defend GW2 now.

Test.8734:

Amazing how people can compare revamping one non-combat and questless instance to revamping massive parts of the world. I guess fairy tales are the only argument to defend GW2 now.

my point was the part you didn’t quote. In both the players had no choice. It doesn’t matter how much you loved the old zones, they’re not the same now. People that didn’t buy the expansion would have arguably liked their zones as they were, because it wasn’t new zones that they were given, they got content replaced. Similarly how some old raids have been closed and in Guild Wars 2 we no longer have up-forward TA path. I wouldn’t call it new content, because you lost old content to get it.

And even then, when was the last time you visited Gendarran Fields, Iron Marches, Kessex Hills, etc? There’s so many new events, there’s a new jumping puzzle, new achievements. First starting zones quests got revamped too. As well as there are new cutscenes in your personal story. We got a lot of changes to old content too. And if we had 10 years, we would see more overhauls too.

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Mirta.5029:

phys.7689:

2 week schedule is a lie, Its a 2 week schedule for 6 -8 weeks than a break. and the amount of content per those two weeks doesnt add up.

and we havent actually got a new dungeon/dungeon like content probably since fractured.

but it is true that they have to make money some how. And it is also true that you get a decent value for your initial purchase.

but i would probably pay more for more actual game of substance. The expansion may provide that, we shall see. I honestly dont know though, havent seen them deliver much on par with what the game delivered in the first 4 months in a long time.

14 fractals,
3 new zones,
QA improvements,
5 hours worth of story
and lots of temporary events

That’s what we got in 2 years for free. Even WoW just locks it up in expansions. And once again, which game provides you with new dungeons on a regular basis?

fractals were cool, but we got most of those 4 months after release, and the rest like a year ago.
Quality of life improvements were like 50/50 for me.
5 hours of story is not a lot, thats 3 months in ffxiv

they had some cool stuff, like marionette, and i think it was worth 60 bucks, but most of their interesting content was like a year ago, and the far majority was on release.

and i amended my last post with ffxiv.
look at what they have added in a year, like 12 dungeons 12 raids 2 24 mans, massive amounts of quests, like 10 boss events in game obtainable armors, a new class new crafting recipes etc.

and thats only one year of updates

about comparing content releases

hide spoiler

There have been a ton of new visual things, between the (10? 12? I don’t even know) sets of BL weapons, the outfits, bizarre things like the mail carriers, random single armor or weapon pieces, etc.

… Actually there’s been a ton of purely ingame stuff too, between the SAB skins, the season 2 stuff (amber weapons and carapace/lumi armor), the seasonal skins, the event backs (dragon wings, flowers, mawdry style vines) and odds and ends like the scarlet weapons and the Aether/Teq reskins. New recipes too now that I think of it.

~~

The only thing GW2 has really lacked, the more I look at it, is more dungeon/group content… which as we know was aether path, fractals, and nothing else.

~~~

The ‘obtainable armors’ thing is interesting, in most games they’re necessary because of progression creep and the loot-focus on the game. The GW2 business model is, in effect, opposed to that, which means that you’re usually going to get new prestige items in different ways than the traditional ‘new-dungeon-new-loot-I’m-the-first-to-get-the-cool-new-set’ setup. (with a few blaring exceptions)

i hate buying stuff with gold in a game, the only thing i dislike more is probably buying stuff with real money in a game.

point is, new armors in other games can be goals, in FFXIV i want to craft a certain armor set, i want to get a different set from a raid. Which gives me goals, and things to do in game. Now if these gears are only available in the store, they really do nothing for making the game more engaging.

But i may be a special case

phys.7689:

i hate buying stuff with gold in a game, the only thing i dislike more is probably buying stuff with real money in a game.

point is, new armors in other games can be goals, in FFXIV i want to craft a certain armor set, i want to get a different set from a raid. Which gives me goals, and things to do in game. Now if these gears are only available in the store, they really do nothing for making the game more engaging.

But i may be a special case

do you have all the dungeon skins unlocked? Because F me after a month I’m only getting close to finishing the crucible of eternity collection. Then there’s all the karma vendor skins. Then there’s all cultural armour skins. Then there’s the special champion weapon skins. Then there’s all the crafting profession backpacks and all the ascended skins that I didn’t unlock yet (every different stat is a different skin), then I don’t have all the legendaries either, not to mention the exclusive tequatl skins. You’re telling me that you have all of it?