Guild Wars 2

For some reason, Anet seems to work under this methodology that balance updates should be approached very conservatively and should occur very infrequently. I assume they think it’s because you need to spend a lot of time evaluating the meta before making changes.

Frankly, I think this is downright silly. No other game does this, and there’s a good reason. Balance is never and will never be perfect, and all it does is cause a lot of player frustration that over- and under-performing skills sit for months or even years on end with no tuning because of how slow and clumsy their balancing process is. P/P for thieves finally got buffed this last patch when people have been very loudly complaining about it for 3 freaking years. That’s ridiculous.

The key is to actually iterate rapidly with small adjustments while compiling data on skill usage over time. If you accidentally over-buff or nerf something, no biggie – you can retune it again with the following week’s patch, or with a quick hotfix in extremely egregious cases. If skills or traits have serious problems, it usually doesn’t take long to be revealed. But, even when it’s revealed and known by the entire community, it often takes at least months for it to be even acknowledged, let alone fixed.

There are a ton of skills that have been under-tuned from day one and still haven’t been acknowledged or fixed, such as the Staff Air Ele Lightning Surge. There have also been a lot of stupidly large balance swings in a single patch that were never revisited, like nerfing Dancing Dagger by a full 50% a few months after launch because it was deemed too strong. Okay, fair, but that was too huge of a nerf for a single patch and it’s been too weak ever since, which affects D/D’s competitive viability.

I just don’t understand this. Dev interaction is terrible and balance updates are far too slow. The majority of player angst in this game is centered around this.

Einlanzer.1627:

I just don’t understand this. Dev interaction is terrible and balance updates are far too slow. The majority of player angst in this game is centered around this.

Agreed. A big part of why players get so emotional about balance changes is because of the extremely long delays between updates. If a patch comes and something is overnerfed or overbuffed, it’s going to be a problem for a very long time, and if a problematic skill is skipped, then it’s going to be a really long time before there’s another chance of the problem being addressed.

I don’t mind the low Dev interaction on the forums that much. It would be nice if they at least explained their intentions in the patch notes, though, stuff like why they made the changes they made, why they held off making the changes the community’s been clamoring for, etc. If we at least knew that they were keeping an eye on X trait or considering buffing Y weapon a bit further depending on performance, then it would feel less like a rain of random buffs and nerfs with no rhyme or reason behind them.

I totally agree. 3 years is way way too long to fix weapons like Guardian shield or Pistols on thief.

Balance patches should be every 2 weeks or every month. Not once every 6 months. That is irresponsible and poor leadership showing through.

Who knows what goes into a balance, and it might not be easy to say balance one class while leaving the other 7, soon to be 8, alone also. I am unsure how it been n the past, but ween seen class balance a few times the last few months.

One of the things they talked about during Twitch Con is they are going to be doing frequent balance updates on a regular predictable schedule.

Arlee.7038:

One of the things they talked about during Twitch Con is they are going to be doing frequent balance updates on a regular predictable schedule.

Unfortunately, we’ve heard them say that before. It didn’t stick. We’ll see if it turns out differently this time.

“fastest growing part of gw2 is PvP” – Colin

Then how about you start supporting it and giving the PvP team better resources to make it better.

Its been a crap show for the past 3 years.
Stop hyping the e-sports nonsense (biggest GW2 tourney in their history couldn’t beat 1 streamer on runescape) and saying “most growing” – It won’t sustain the growth if you don’t give the PvP team better resources and support.

It only had a growth due to influx from recent F2P players…. but they won’t stick around at all when they realize how little Anet has cared for PvP in the past 3 years….

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Arlee.7038:

One of the things they talked about during Twitch Con is they are going to be doing frequent balance updates on a regular predictable schedule.

Unfortunately, we’ve heard them say that before. It didn’t stick. We’ll see if it turns out differently this time.

Well they have a balance patch coming up here, so how about we wait for them to actually not follow through before we start complaining they are doing it wrong/failing to follow through again?

TJgalon.5012:

Who knows what goes into a balance, and it might not be easy to say balance one class while leaving the other 7, soon to be 8, alone also. I am unsure how it been n the past, but ween seen class balance a few times the last few months.

I do. All you have to do is compare the methodology used by Arenanet here to that used by other companies. Balance is simultaneously very easy and very difficult. The difficult part is that it will never be perfect, so you just have to make peace with that. The easy part is comparing skills with similar effects, paying attention to bug reports, and performing rapid iteration on overused and underused skills.

It’s really not rocket science.

I can tell you right now my prediction is that this is going to slow down after a few months once HoT has been released. The one thing they are doing right now is “showing off” to new players that they can work on balancing their game at a quick pace. It’s not going to last, even if they say it’s going to. There has been way too much evidence to the contrary since even GW1 was released.

Also since GW1 was released they had stated a long time ago that smaller variety of skills in GW2, would allow them to maintain a better balanced game. Yeah look how well that’s worked out for them in the last 3 years.

SkiTz.4590:

It only had a growth due to influx from recent F2P players…. but they won’t stick around at all when they realize how little Anet has cared for PvP in the past 3 years….

That is demonstratively not true and if you had quoted ALL of what Colin said you would have seen it wasn’t. Yes F2P did create a huge spike, but PvP has been growing over the entire last year. So no it isn’t all due to F2P.

Blaine Tog.8304:

If a patch comes and something is overnerfed or overbuffed, it’s going to be a problem for a very long time, and if a problematic skill is skipped, then it’s going to be a really long time before there’s another chance of the problem being addressed.

Unless it’s Ranger then it get’s ‘fixed’ in a hot fix 2 days later -_-

Arlee.7038:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Arlee.7038:

One of the things they talked about during Twitch Con is they are going to be doing frequent balance updates on a regular predictable schedule.

Unfortunately, we’ve heard them say that before. It didn’t stick. We’ll see if it turns out differently this time.

Well they have a balance patch coming up here, so how about we wait for them to actually not follow through before we start complaining they are doing it wrong/failing to follow through again?

Wasn’t complaining, was simply pointing out that we have heard the exact same line from them previously. “We’re going to do frequent, small balance patches” and didn’t precisely follow through. Thus, I take the most recent “we’re going to do balance patches on a regular schedule” with a grain of salt. The best laid plans and all that jazz…

If they do follow through, wonderful. If not… shrug Not exactly broken up about it here.

Arlee.7038:

SkiTz.4590:

It only had a growth due to influx from recent F2P players…. but they won’t stick around at all when they realize how little Anet has cared for PvP in the past 3 years….

That is demonstratively not true and if you had quoted ALL of what Colin said you would have seen it wasn’t. Yes F2P did create a huge spike, but PvP has been growing over the entire last year. So no it isn’t all due to F2P.

Of course but F2P has had the biggest impact.

Its been growing over the last year…. specifically when Living season ended…. ppl ran out of stuff to do… hence, more ppl trying out different things like PvP and WvW…

My point is, the resources and help the PvP teams have gotten over the past 3 years have been pretty abysmal….

Einlanzer.1627:

TJgalon.5012:

Who knows what goes into a balance, and it might not be easy to say balance one class while leaving the other 7, soon to be 8, alone also. I am unsure how it been n the past, but ween seen class balance a few times the last few months.

I do. All you have to do is compare the methodology used by Arenanet here to that used by other companies. Balance is simultaneously very easy and very difficult. The difficult part is that it will never be perfect, so you just have to make peace with that. The easy part is comparing skills with similar effects, paying attention to bug reports, and performing rapid iteration on overused and underused skills.

It’s really not rocket science.

Well in your own sentence, not everything going to be perfect. I know from experince, that something that easy may be hard to other, and sometimes things have to be in order if importance. Depending how bad it effect game play / experience it something that has to wait. Not saying your wrong, just saying, I bet it happens that way, as it can’t be easy to just say, lets lower this, or higher this, everything has a conquance to it.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

Blaine Tog.8304:

If a patch comes and something is overnerfed or overbuffed, it’s going to be a problem for a very long time, and if a problematic skill is skipped, then it’s going to be a really long time before there’s another chance of the problem being addressed.

Unless it’s Ranger then it get’s ‘fixed’ in a hot fix 2 days later -_-

No that happens with anything that is too brokenly good for the person using whatever. Another example is the Thief trait “No Quarter” giving infinite fury uptime.

SkiTz.4590:

My point is, the resources and help the PvP teams have gotten over the past 3 years have been pretty abysmal….

This is slightly amusing because that sentiment is echoed through pretty much every aspect of the game. This leads to the obvious question if ANet isn’t supporting any of the game modes then what he hell have they been doing?

Khisanth.2948:

SkiTz.4590:

My point is, the resources and help the PvP teams have gotten over the past 3 years have been pretty abysmal….

This is slightly amusing because that sentiment is echoed through pretty much every aspect of the game. This leads to the obvious question if ANet isn’t supporting any of the game modes then what he hell have they been doing?

That’s not true… Only WvW and PvP have gotten the short stick when it comes to updates, that is a fact.

Most of the resources anet spends has been gemstore, Living story, or other PvE content related…..

Einlanzer.1627:

TJgalon.5012:

Who knows what goes into a balance, and it might not be easy to say balance one class while leaving the other 7, soon to be 8, alone also. I am unsure how it been n the past, but ween seen class balance a few times the last few months.

I do. All you have to do is compare the methodology used by Arenanet here to that used by other companies. Balance is simultaneously very easy and very difficult. The difficult part is that it will never be perfect, so you just have to make peace with that. The easy part is comparing skills with similar effects, paying attention to bug reports, and performing rapid iteration on overused and underused skills.

It’s really not rocket science.

Which isn’t easy at all, it may sound easy on a really superficial level, but it isn’t

Einlanzer.1627:

For some reason, Anet seems to work under this methodology that balance updates should be approached very conservatively and should occur very infrequently. I assume they think it’s because you need to spend a lot of time evaluating the meta before making changes.

You think they should “aiming”, let alone “readying”? That seems like a surefire road to disastrous changes. It takes time for the community to get used to the post-rebalance reality and incorporate the changes into their gameplay. It takes longer for people to figure out new tactics and new responses.

If you think ANet is bad at rebalancing, reducing the time between skill updates is just going to exacerbate the situation. (It’s like when politicians complain about our schools doing a poor job and then wanting to extend the school year.)

I think the first step in improving ANet’s rebalancing efforts is to provide specific feedback about the kinds of things they do well and the stuff they tend to do poorly. Help them to do a better job of adjusting things first and then we can ask them to do it more often.

TheBlackS.3561:

Einlanzer.1627:

TJgalon.5012:

Who knows what goes into a balance, and it might not be easy to say balance one class while leaving the other 7, soon to be 8, alone also. I am unsure how it been n the past, but ween seen class balance a few times the last few months.

I do. All you have to do is compare the methodology used by Arenanet here to that used by other companies. Balance is simultaneously very easy and very difficult. The difficult part is that it will never be perfect, so you just have to make peace with that. The easy part is comparing skills with similar effects, paying attention to bug reports, and performing rapid iteration on overused and underused skills.

It’s really not rocket science.

Which isn’t easy at all, it may sound easy on a really superficial level, but it isn’t

…. It’s really not as hard as people make it out to be. Not with the right operational infrastructure. The problem, as with most things in GW2, seems to revolve around poor management.

Could not agree more with OP. Most unacceptable balancing frequency I have ever seen in an MMO.

SkiTz.4590:

“fastest growing part of gw2 is PvP” – Colin

Then how about you start supporting it and giving the PvP team better resources to make it better.

Its been a crap show for the past 3 years.
Stop hyping the e-sports nonsense (biggest GW2 tourney in their history couldn’t beat 1 streamer on runescape) and saying “most growing” – It won’t sustain the growth if you don’t give the PvP team better resources and support.

It only had a growth due to influx from recent F2P players…. but they won’t stick around at all when they realize how little Anet has cared for PvP in the past 3 years….

Someone needs to tell Colin that daily’s done in sPvP doesn’t really mean people are pvping for competition.

We got a balancement patch ONLY ONE MONTH AGO. Why are you complaining? Do you have any idea how much time it takes? The tremendous amounts of analysis, discussion, re-analysis, coding, testing and finally QA? The QA alone can take 2 weeks if things go smoothly.

Not to mention that if there is intention to change how things work -completely- it’s useless to tinker with certain skills. Think of the recent Conditions changes, the new mastery system, what good would it have done to do any significant balance changes before these things came out?

Bottom line we are getting a balance patch nearly 1 to 2 months since conditions changes and mastery system. Now is not the time to start complaining.

The balance updates will be infrequent at best, but I bet there will be new weapon skins every three weeks on the clock.

Einlanzer.1627:

TheBlackS.3561:

Einlanzer.1627:

TJgalon.5012:

Who knows what goes into a balance, and it might not be easy to say balance one class while leaving the other 7, soon to be 8, alone also. I am unsure how it been n the past, but ween seen class balance a few times the last few months.

I do. All you have to do is compare the methodology used by Arenanet here to that used by other companies. Balance is simultaneously very easy and very difficult. The difficult part is that it will never be perfect, so you just have to make peace with that. The easy part is comparing skills with similar effects, paying attention to bug reports, and performing rapid iteration on overused and underused skills.

It’s really not rocket science.

Which isn’t easy at all, it may sound easy on a really superficial level, but it isn’t

…. It’s really not as hard as people make it out to be. Not with the right operational infrastructure. The problem, as with most things in GW2, seems to revolve around poor management.

Pretty easy to be an armchair developer isn’kitten

huh every other game does this.

Unacceptable? What’re you going to do about it that involves not accepting it?

Manasa Devi.7958:

Unacceptable? What’re you going to do about it that involves not accepting it?

Make noise and not accept it. Is this a real question?

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Einlanzer.1627:

TheBlackS.3561:

Einlanzer.1627:

TJgalon.5012:

Who knows what goes into a balance, and it might not be easy to say balance one class while leaving the other 7, soon to be 8, alone also. I am unsure how it been n the past, but ween seen class balance a few times the last few months.

I do. All you have to do is compare the methodology used by Arenanet here to that used by other companies. Balance is simultaneously very easy and very difficult. The difficult part is that it will never be perfect, so you just have to make peace with that. The easy part is comparing skills with similar effects, paying attention to bug reports, and performing rapid iteration on overused and underused skills.

It’s really not rocket science.

Which isn’t easy at all, it may sound easy on a really superficial level, but it isn’t

…. It’s really not as hard as people make it out to be. Not with the right operational infrastructure. The problem, as with most things in GW2, seems to revolve around poor management.

Pretty easy to be an armchair developer isn’kitten

I did not say it was easy. I said it wasn’t as difficult as people think, and that the key is having a.) accepting that it will never be perfect, and b.) working around a very solid set of paradigms that are built around rapid and agile iteration and inter-skill comparisons.

For example, you don’t buff a trait to compensate for a skill weakness, and vice versa. Anet tends to do this kind of thing a lot.

Einlanzer.1627:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Unacceptable? What’re you going to do about it that involves not accepting it?

Make noise and not accept it.

How do you not accept it? Non-acceptance involves action to rectify or avoid the situation. Not playing the game until the situation has become “acceptable” again, for example.

Using the word “unacceptable” frivolously is just a pompous way to express dissatisfaction while impotently accepting the situation anyway.

While I agree with your sentiment, saying “no other game does this” is just silly.

Blizzard hasn’t balanced Hearthstone in half a year and everyone who plays the game knows it’s in dire need of it.

Manasa Devi.7958:

pompous way to express dissatisfaction while impotently accepting the situation anyway.

Sums up your complaints about posters wordings too.

On topic: The timescales for balance updates (such as for Conditions in particular) have been excessive and disappointing. Some are defending ANet due to the recent wave of balance updates (which are very welcome, generally) but let’s not forget that the expansion is just around the corner and every profession has been under the microscope. I believe ANet have been more pro-active on the balance front lately mainly because of Elite Specs and the expansion (and maybe the free to play launch) and not ANet taking a firmer grip on the reins.

If ANet can keep it up I’ll be surprised but grateful. The OP is saying things that have been said many times before and I agree with the sentiment. My expectations are that post HoT we will see extensive patching across the board, including balance updates, but that in 6 months time it tails off again, eventually diminishing in frequency to 6-month cycles with glaring issues remaining unresolved for years – eg. what we’ve observed from GW2 launch to now.