Guild Wars 2

This is not by any means a unique problem with GW2, but as I’m mainly a GW2 player I’ll still bring my concerns up here. Try to read this not as whining (though maybe it is, anyway), but instead as a topic of discussion and contemplation. Read it as a question, and think: “Do I know the answer, or am I also wondering?”

That is, as the title should explain, the constant updates and patches regarding classes, their skills, traits and so on; Everything contributing to the overall balance of the game.

What concerns me personally in this matter, even though I’m not a Min-Max kind of player by any stretch of the imagination, is that I still want to feel useful. I consider myself a mix of WvW/PvE player, but this may apply to all content in the game and all kinds of players.

I also think I play more than the average casual player, but I also play somewhat casually, I guess. So I try to focus on my warrior, as it was my first character, when it comes to gearing. I don’t have the time nor the drive to equip all my characters with full ascended. Just equipping my one warrior in full ascended, infused and all, would be a huge undertaking for me, and I would guess for many more players around the globe also.

What I’ve noticed during the latest 5-6 months though, is that my usefullness goes up and down like a jojo, and I’m talking both WvW and PvE here. I’ve personally chosen not to go full zerker, instead taking hammer, soldier runes and shouts with more focus on survivability and support than anything else. But I’m afraid that when I stand there, fully decked out in ascended gear, that my character will… well, suck. That everywhere I go, my build will not be functional and viable, except maybe in zombie-brained CoF runs.

And why is that? Well, because many build besides than zerker are already deemed useless, and if a nerf would to hit, it may hit too hard for these builds to recover. Should zerkers be the only ones feeling comfort on the thought that the grind and expense they pay for the best available gear will be worth it? Should people who don’t like that playstyle, and want to play something else, have to worry that all that time and money wasn’t wasted because of a nerf, making their spec total garbage that will only work as feed in the mists, or annyoance in a dungeon run.

Well, the motivation for crafting and acquiring ascended may, with these concerns in mind, hit rock bottom. And that sense of accomplishment, that sense of ‘being on top’, may never be fully realized.

Is this over-analyzing, over-complicating, can this be considered a real problem, and if so; what is the root of it and can it be fixed?

TL;DR

Class balancing and nerfs may discourage players from investing time and money into Ascended gear of fear that a future patch will make their build (at least gear-wise) obsolete. Is this a problem, what’s causing it and can it be solved? Or isn’kitten problem, in that case why and what should players who may consider it a problem do and/or think to stop worrying?

Discuss.

PS. For moderators: The reason I put this in the general forums and not in Profession Balance is that I’m not after a discussion on the balance, rather it’s about the consequences it brings to other parts of the game.

Just wait until you grind out your entire set of legendary armor and they play musical chairs with stats again. That’ll be fun.

Legendary Armor????

Did I miss something I thought legendaries were only weapons, and ascended was the cap for armor????

Sehson.2930:

Legendary Armor????

Did I miss something I thought legendaries were only weapons, and ascended was the cap for armor????

They have mentioned Legendary armour in the past, but it isn’t currently in the game.

However, as long as they maintain the same functionality as Legendary weapons (that is, you can swap to any stat combination outside of combat), you’d be able to swap the stats, which would make Catalyst’s comment a non-issue, really.

Ascended gear already does a fine job of discouraging players to invest into it. Its a 750+ gold sink for 3 prof and 9+ pieces of gear, not to mention the time it takes to obtain those 9+ visions crystals.

I’ve been playing MMO’s since DAoC over 10 years ago, and I have NEVER seen a grind as large as ascended gear, or even the legendaries in this game for that matter. It’s disgusting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E&t=1m40s

TheDaiBish.9735:

Sehson.2930:

Legendary Armor????

Did I miss something I thought legendaries were only weapons, and ascended was the cap for armor????

They have mentioned Legendary armour in the past, but it isn’t currently in the game.

However, as long as they maintain the same functionality as Legendary weapons (that is, you can swap to any stat combination outside of combat), you’d be able to swap the stats, which would make Catalyst’s comment a non-issue, really.

It would be nice, but given ANet’s history, I think they would prefer people to grind out several sets rather than giving that functionality to a single set. If they make obtaining legendary armor as grindy, tedious, and annoying as obtaining a legendary weapon, then I could see them allowing you to swap stats. If that ends up being the case, have fun with it for the next year unless you drop hundreds of dollars in the cash shop.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Sehson.2930:

Legendary Armor????

Did I miss something I thought legendaries were only weapons, and ascended was the cap for armor????

They have mentioned Legendary armour in the past, but it isn’t currently in the game.

However, as long as they maintain the same functionality as Legendary weapons (that is, you can swap to any stat combination outside of combat), you’d be able to swap the stats, which would make Catalyst’s comment a non-issue, really.

It would be nice, but given ANet’s history, I think they would prefer people to grind out several sets rather than giving that functionality to a single set. If they make obtaining legendary armor as grindy, tedious, and annoying as obtaining a legendary weapon, then I could see them allowing you to swap stats. If that ends up being the case, have fun with it for the next year unless you drop hundreds of dollars in the cash shop.

I actually agree when it comes to the ‘Legendary’ weapons. It comes to something when low level Karma items have more of a story that the ‘Legendary’ weapons. Not to mention the process is completely mundane. They really dropped the ball on them.

As it is, the only Ascended pieces I own are an amulet and rings. I function just fine with Exotics, and I’m not locked out of any content, so I don’t feel the need to aim for them.

My personal opinion on the matter is that as long as you can be sure that what you’re grinding for will be useful, grinding in and of itself can be OK. I don’t enjoy grinding, and consider it being one of the worst offenders of fun gameplay within games, but as said… it can be OK.

Though I worry that, with balance patches, nerfs, FotM-builds and maybe even level- and tier-raising, players can never be confident that their hard-earned gear will be just that; worth the effort. The only scenario that I could think of that would work with the current system is if the game came to a “perfect balance”, never to be patched again. But this is of course nothing but an impossible dream, and hence my creation of this thread.

I could be wrong, of course, and my hope for this thread is for it to become fuel to a good, constructive discussion that may lead to some awesome suggestions from our community members. If that will be the case, I sure hope ArenaNet listens and considers one or several solutions. If anyone considers this a problem at all, that is.

Zepidel.5349:

Ascended gear already does a fine job of discouraging players to invest into it. Its a 750+ gold sink for 3 prof and 9+ pieces of gear, not to mention the time it takes to obtain those 9+ visions crystals.

I’ve been playing MMO’s since DAoC over 10 years ago, and I have NEVER seen a grind as large as ascended gear, or even the legendaries in this game for that matter. It’s disgusting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E&t=1m40s

Agree 100%. I have a warrior in Full zerker, with zerker armor as well. The grind for that was almost up to par with my legendary(yes I have no life lol). Reading about the zerker nerf did get me thinking about future nerfs. I am not too worried since I will always be doing damage but what if I had made a set of celestial ascended armor? Or maybe made a set of knights for my guardian and later find out that toughness is no more?
MMOs have always had nerfs and GW2 is no exception but the point is that I always recovered by easily getting new specced gear.
Unfortunately GW2 is way way too grindy for me to respec my zerker warrior to a new, as of yet, unknown meta or anything else for that matter.

Stormcrow.7513:

Zepidel.5349:

Ascended gear already does a fine job of discouraging players to invest into it. Its a 750+ gold sink for 3 prof and 9+ pieces of gear, not to mention the time it takes to obtain those 9+ visions crystals.

I’ve been playing MMO’s since DAoC over 10 years ago, and I have NEVER seen a grind as large as ascended gear, or even the legendaries in this game for that matter. It’s disgusting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E&t=1m40s

Agree 100%. I have a warrior in Full zerker, with zerker armor as well. The grind for that was almost up to par with my legendary(yes I have no life lol). Reading about the zerker nerf did get me thinking about future nerfs. I am not too worried since I will always be doing damage but what if I had made a set of celestial ascended armor? Or maybe made a set of knights for my guardian and later find out that toughness is no more?
MMOs have always had nerfs and GW2 is no exception but the point is that I always recovered by easily getting new specced gear.
Unfortunately GW2 is way way too grindy for me to respec my zerker warrior to a new, as of yet, unknown meta or anything else for that matter.

I don’t think you will have to worry about that. The changes to crit damage were extremely lazy on Anets part, and don’t address the core problem with the game mechanics. This is just a half kitten d response to people complaining about the zerker “meta” which isn’t a zerker or gear meta, but a dps meta.

All the encounters in the game are made so the greatest portion of damage mitigation is done through active skills and dodge, these things can be used in soldiers gear, zerker gear, any gear, and any spec for that matter.

Meaning better players will use zerker gear or whatever gear gives the most dps potential, because as they become better at actively mitigating damage… they don’t need the crutch that is more hp or toughness. Why? Because instead of a 1 hour dungeon run, its done in 20 minutes for the same reward.

Zerker will still be king after the patch. The only possible setup to dethrone it is condition specs if the cap is removed, but still that’s a dps meta.

This is all a side effect of removing any kind of support roles from the game, trading the “trinity” for the “singularity” did nothing to advance the genre, although I will say on a gameplay level the game is much for fun to play than most traditional mmos, but i don’t see why fun combat like in GW2 cant be implemented into a trinity system.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Just wait until you grind out your entire set of legendary armor and they play musical chairs with stats again. That’ll be fun.

Legendaries are being redesigned so that players can choose and change to different sets of ascended level stats when they are out of combat.

Xzaander.4123:

the constant updates and patches regarding classes, their skills, traits and so on; Everything contributing to the overall balance of the game.

It’s a trifle odd to see someone posting about constant balance updates, while I’m also seeing posts about how seldom ANet offers balance updates. Remember, it will have been 5 months since the last one when the Apr 15 patch arrives.

As to choice of gear: soldier gear is generally considered a fine investment for WvW, and is also gear of choice for Teq — since the lonely wurm takes no crits. If someone chose soldier because it’s gear that matches his play-style, then he will have to live with the consequences. He might have to find non-meta groups for dungeons, but that is one of the consequences.

As to Ascended. This gear type was put in either because umpteen million players demanded gear stat inflation, or because ANet discovered that staying ahead of the demand for goals with cosmetics was too resource intensive. Either way, the fact is that they were made harder to obtain than exotics because goals achieved through longer time commitment serves ANet’s purposes. If you don’t want to pursue additional Ascended, then use exotics. If players have to have Ascended, then either they live with the ones they’ve got or make another set. ANet is not going to make switching Ascended easier, and they are under no obligation to insure players against demands by other players.

Yeah, my eyes sort of crossed at the “constant balance patches” comment too.

When I look at GW2’s gameplay, the word “Stagnant” comes to mind a lot faster than the word “Unstable”.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xzaander.4123:

the constant updates and patches regarding classes, their skills, traits and so on; Everything contributing to the overall balance of the game.

It’s a trifle odd to see someone posting about constant balance updates, while I’m also seeing posts about how seldom ANet offers balance updates. Remember, it will have been 5 months since the last one when the Apr 15 patch arrives.

Hm, maybe constantly is the wrong word here. If I had written frequently then that would be a blatant lie or even delusional. Continously may be a better choice of wording in this case.

English is not my first language so if I confuse you, you’re more than welcome to ask me to clarify, or correct me.

Xzaander.4123

Do you mean, I’ve been using myself as the reference point for developing my own scientific knowledge base, instead of choosing the more permanent fixtures of the universe that real scientists have been using for centuries?

Exactly! Now if you don’t mind, I have to leave here before I make myself insane from having to pretend the twenty first century has more than a handful of modern humans living within it.

Drugs are for idiots. Does that answer your real question?

I’m just confused if people haven’t played any other mmo before gw2. This happens all the time in other mmos. WoW did it plenty of times every three months. They change the function of one ability, or reduce the coefficient of something, and everyone would have to rebalance gear.

Blizzard: We increased the requirement for hit rating on a boss.

Players: Nooo! Now we need to go through the whole data base once more, min/max our gear, modify enchants, modify gems, and run dps tests on dummies! I’ve waisted all my points too for our loot system! Well, lets get it over with…

This is nothing new. This will continue to happen over the course of the game. This happens in all mmos. I don’t understand the outrage of it. Is it because you spent time on ascended gear? Ok, I know that feeling when I lost pieces of gear in raids to members that didn’t need it. Then I had to wait for rng again to work in my favor, then hope nobody else would take it, and if either one of those happened, I had to wait a whole week again to restart the process.

I didn’t get overly excited when ascended gear was introduced, I honestly didn’t care. I am fine with exotic. I could probably have multiple sets of ascended by now since I run dungeons and fractals. I understand the whole “I must min/max my character to be the best!”, until I realized…“wait…am I having fun? Do I need this gear asap? Is it stopping me from playing the game?” No? Then i’m fine. I just finally realized they are just pixals, its not life and death or something to foam at the mouth over

Xzaander.4123:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xzaander.4123:

the constant updates and patches regarding classes, their skills, traits and so on; Everything contributing to the overall balance of the game.

It’s a trifle odd to see someone posting about constant balance updates, while I’m also seeing posts about how seldom ANet offers balance updates. Remember, it will have been 5 months since the last one when the Apr 15 patch arrives.

Hm, maybe constantly is the wrong word here. If I had written frequently then that would be a blatant lie or even delusional. Continously may be a better choice of wording in this case.

English is not my first language so if I confuse you, you’re more than welcome to ask me to clarify, or correct me.

I was not trying to correct you so much as commenting on the irony of one poster thinking that balance updates come too often while others think they don’t come often enough. I see now that the issue was in choice of word, not meaning. At a guess, perhaps you mean “never-ending?” Game balance updates in an MMO are always going to come sooner or later unless the game is on life support, but frequency varies by game.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xzaander.4123:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xzaander.4123:

the constant updates and patches regarding classes, their skills, traits and so on; Everything contributing to the overall balance of the game.

It’s a trifle odd to see someone posting about constant balance updates, while I’m also seeing posts about how seldom ANet offers balance updates. Remember, it will have been 5 months since the last one when the Apr 15 patch arrives.

Hm, maybe constantly is the wrong word here. If I had written frequently then that would be a blatant lie or even delusional. Continously may be a better choice of wording in this case.

English is not my first language so if I confuse you, you’re more than welcome to ask me to clarify, or correct me.

I was not trying to correct you so much as commenting on the irony of one poster thinking that balance updates come too often while others think they don’t come often enough. I see now that the issue was in choice of word, not meaning. At a guess, perhaps you mean “never-ending?” Game balance updates in an MMO are always going to come sooner or later unless the game is on life support, but frequency varies by game.

The Six knows what he would have thought of Guild Wars 1 and it’s skill balance patches. They were kind of infamous you know.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xzaander.4123:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xzaander.4123:

the constant updates and patches regarding classes, their skills, traits and so on; Everything contributing to the overall balance of the game.

It’s a trifle odd to see someone posting about constant balance updates, while I’m also seeing posts about how seldom ANet offers balance updates. Remember, it will have been 5 months since the last one when the Apr 15 patch arrives.

Hm, maybe constantly is the wrong word here. If I had written frequently then that would be a blatant lie or even delusional. Continously may be a better choice of wording in this case.

English is not my first language so if I confuse you, you’re more than welcome to ask me to clarify, or correct me.

I was not trying to correct you so much as commenting on the irony of one poster thinking that balance updates come too often while others think they don’t come often enough. I see now that the issue was in choice of word, not meaning. At a guess, perhaps you mean “never-ending?” Game balance updates in an MMO are always going to come sooner or later unless the game is on life support, but frequency varies by game.

Yeah, never-ending may be the best word describing what I mean.

I of course wish GW2 to keep it’s playerbase, keep being an active game, or else I wouldn’t bother posting in its forums. And for that to be so, the game needs to be updated and cared about by the devs, so yeah… balancing, though not very regular in GW2, sure is inevitable.

I think that I’ve personally come to the conclusion that I shouldn’t worry too much, just keeping playing the game for what I love about it and sooner or later I’ll get my ascended gear. If my build sucks at that time, I’ll just swap it out with some exotics until that time that my gear is considered viable again.

To sum it up, it may not be as much of an issue as I first considered it to be, at least for myself. But as said before, without any “scientific” goals or purposes, it would still be interesting what people though about this. And not, you know, deliberately derail the thread with off-topic discussion. Like some “geniuses”.

Zepidel.5349:

Ascended gear already does a fine job of discouraging players to invest into it. Its a 750+ gold sink for 3 prof and 9+ pieces of gear, not to mention the time it takes to obtain those 9+ visions crystals.

I’ve been playing MMO’s since DAoC over 10 years ago, and I have NEVER seen a grind as large as ascended gear, or even the legendaries in this game for that matter. It’s disgusting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E&t=1m40s

LOL – but you don’t need Ascended gear UNLESS you do fractals…. Your choice to waste time and money. That is the point of this game, for most people Exotic is just as good.