Guild Wars 2

So to me it seems that everytime they do a balance patch it’s based off of pvp and it feels like pve isn’t taken into consideration. For instance they talked about reducing damage and daze duration on Guardian traps cause they feel too op. That’s ok to me cause it is pretty op in a pvp setting, but in pve it feels right where it should be. Or take Alacrity. 66% feels appropriate for pve and maybe a bit much in pvp.

So my thoughts are why not keep the changes separate from one another? Like…. changing something in pve but not pvp or vice versa? True this is more work but I think it would help with the tug and pull the 2 sides of the game are having on each other.

Pretty much you nailed it on the head

For those people who do PVP and complain X is to strong or Y has to be changed etc etc it affects pve the most which is pathetic given current technology

I mean take the change coming to engineer/Scrapper i play one occasionally and the last GWC/POI stated the engineer had to much survivability…. ok.. so why increase the CD of stealth gyro….. how is that going to affect it an any way in PVE it doesnt.. it affects it in PVP

devs really are getting worse and worse they need to stop take a look at both areas and separate them if LOTRO can do it 5 years ago pretty sure GW2 can do it now.

How does balancing a profession with PvP in mind affect the PvE experience?

The reality is if guardian traps were getting over the top in PvP where there is 10 players on a map, then what is happening in WvW with zergs and traps? What is happening in PvE with Full maps of traps?

Alacrity was dominating PvP. So what is the effect in PvE when you have 7 mesmer all nearby?

That is why balancing across the board is useful. If it is a problem in small groups of skilled real players, then in zergs of players against PvE targets it just trivializes content.
This why there has been more creation of meta events. The onus being on performing multiple objectives to complete content, rather than a gank of players all just screw balling a large world boss target. The game would never develop if it was nothing more than dump a tonne of OP skills on one area/target and move on.

This why we’re seeing 10 guards or 10 revenants doing raids. There is also a video of a revenant soloing vale guardians in beta weekend.

Keep in mind … PvE can be balanced by changing the player’s stats/abilities and by changing the mobs/mechanics. For PvP only the first way works.

And 99% of PvE can be sucessfully done with almost any build. It might take a little bit longer, but that’s it. In PvP the success of weak classes/builds is much more limited.
OP stuff in PvE might make something too easy, but nobody is forced to use it. In PvP, OP stuff can ruin other player’s fun. There are some good reasons, why PvP balance is more important than PvE balance. Ofc PvE shouldn’t be ignored (same for WvW, which should be more PvP oriented balance wise) and splitting the class balance across the game modes would be better anyway.

They had separate PVP and PVE versions of some skills in GW1. I thought it worked well but I know the devs were not keen on making it more widespread. More work and more stuff to keep track of I guess.

Its always like this. PVP kittens us over and we can then sort out the scrap and somehow live with it. Wouldnt want to have a tank spec ya know.. tank stuff…

For christs sake split the balance between the THREE game modes. All need their very own balance cause they got their very own way of doing stuff…but why do i even complain? A-net only cares about their esperts anyways if it comes to balance.

The funny part is that they already tried to seperate some skills but ended up removing the seperation in the end.

No point in actually having a discussion on this as the devs flat out don’t want to put in the effort to properly split and balance this game. Its clear from some of the PvP responses in this thread, that they don’t even understand the context of the OP’s post. PvE has multiple aspects, and the only one that balance has any real impact on is instanced PvE. I see previous posters talking about open world boss zerging….you can have everyone naked, with no traits selected…and still 1111111 that to death. Clearly, that is not what the OP is talking about. The conversation is about raids and fractals. Poor profession balance in raids and high level fractals results in exclusion. Any profession that doesn’t make the meta gets treated like an outcast in any semi-challenging PvE instanced content. It doesn’t make sense to stack the deck against your group, by intentionally picking an under performing profession to group with. This is the same effect that pure PvE balance has on PvP.

PvP players always run off at the mouth about PvP being more important that PvE, but at the end of the day….no mmo survives based on PvP. PvE always carries a mmo…PvE players give a game its longevity. That being said, PvP is important too….that is what gives a game visibility in tournaments…and attracts some customers. Both modes deserve balance. The problem is that that balance isn’t happening equally. It can only happen equally if they split the skills between game modes.

ANet has always balanced around pvp. That’s how it was in GW1. That’s how it is here. How it will always be. Yes, they have stated that they also look at how the changes will affect pve and wvw as well, but lets face it…balancing those are not the main goal.

Yes, in GW1 they did start splitting skills, late factions early nightfall time period if I recall. However, they didn’t like doing it. We know they can do the same here, as they have done so with skills previously already. But again, they really don’t like doing it (and I think everything that was split has since been unsplit).

nicknamenick.2437:

besides everything works in PVE nomather what.

This discussion about PVE players being leftout of balancing or get screwed over is freaking dumb

…and this is why its pointless to even talk to PvP players.

• The WvW community is concerned about Venom Share.

I you think the Alacrity nerf wasn’t aimed strongly at PvE too, you must be delusional :p

Precog wasn’t nerfed for PvP (this go round)….This nerf is a direct aim at Raids where it effectively allowed you to ignore Raid Mechanics.

OP, are you having trouble in PvE?

Or is this a HoT/Raid concern?

Just looking for context.

There are raids now. PVE balance is a very important factor. And arenanet developers SHOULD keep it in mind.

circuitnerd.5863:

So to me it seems that everytime they do a balance patch it’s based off of pvp and it feels like pve isn’t taken into consideration. For instance they talked about reducing damage and daze duration on Guardian traps cause they feel too op. That’s ok to me cause it is pretty op in a pvp setting, but in pve it feels right where it should be. Or take Alacrity. 66% feels appropriate for pve and maybe a bit much in pvp.

So my thoughts are why not keep the changes separate from one another? Like…. changing something in pve but not pvp or vice versa? True this is more work but I think it would help with the tug and pull the 2 sides of the game are having on each other.

In reality the PvP/WvW balance is screwed because of PvE right now.

Someone else already said it: You can adjust mobs to player’s damage in PvE, in PvP/WvW you can’t.
But yes, maybe 2 separate systems would help – I don’t know. I just know that everything suffers because of PvE right now

Jana.6831:

In reality the PvP/WvW balance is screwed because of PvE right now.

Someone else already said it: You can adjust mobs to player’s damage in PvE, in PvP/WvW you can’t.
But yes, maybe 2 separate systems would help – I don’t know. I just know that everything suffers because of PvE right now

Two sides of the same coin. PvE is suffering due to PvP balance. The skew of “Dominant Classes” near end game is largely due to the raw numbers given to skills for PvP purposes.

Or did we all magically forget the huge outcry for Rev’s “Lack of Damage and Utility”….Whoops CoR exist, Sword AA was buffed between BW3 and Launch.
Or how bout them Condi Rev’s in PvP that only got their conditions increased between BW3 and launch as well.

It’s a global problem not limited to one side or the other. Hence why splitting the balance would be best, however it requires more resources and time than Anet is willing to devote currently.

While its cool that currently skills are uniform, that same uniformity is causing issues in all modes. This is exactly why other games (to use LoL for an example) have different items for 3v3 compared to those found in 5v5. Two unique modes, require two unique ways of adjusting because lets face it conquest matters jack all to PvE and vice-versa.

You legit can nerf every single class for PvE for around 20%-30% of their total DPS and you could still complete the raid just fine. The fact that people can’t is simply a L2P issue. Like it has been said earlier, there’s been instances of people soloing raid bosses already. Balancing around PvE is idiotic.

That said, if the devs decide to split up WvW, PvE and PvP balancing, that would be a good day, but until then, balance based on PvP only.

Well there is already some PvP/rest split in that the whole stat system is kinda different with the amulets. And the devs are taking more actions on that subject, tweaking sPvP not only by changing the skills but simply by changing the amulets available.

Reverence.6915:

You legit can nerf every single class for PvE for around 20%-30% of their total DPS and you could still complete the raid just fine. The fact that people can’t is simply a L2P issue. Like it has been said earlier, there’s been instances of people soloing raid bosses already. Balancing around PvE is idiotic.

That said, if the devs decide to split up WvW, PvE and PvP balancing, that would be a good day, but until then, balance based on PvP only.

It is not about overall DPS, we are not asking for DPS, we are asking for balance so all professions are viable there. Current situation is, if you are not burnzerker warrior/DPS herald/fresh air tempest/alacrity chronomancer/heal druid you are not welcomed in a raid party.

This goes both ways.
One of the reasons this game will never have balanced PvP,is because PvE needs to be taken into consideration.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Alacrity was dominating PvP. So what is the effect in PvE when you have 7 mesmer all nearby?

Good question, I wouldn’t know since we only bring 1 per raid/fractal.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

The reality is if guardian traps were getting over the top in PvP where there is 10 players on a map, then what is happening in WvW with zergs and traps? What is happening in PvE with Full maps of traps?

Nothing, traps suck in pve. Nerfing them any further just removes them from the bar.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

How does balancing a profession with PvP in mind affect the PvE experience?

That is why balancing across the board is useful. If it is a problem in small groups of skilled real players, then in zergs of players against PvE targets it just trivializes content.

Not really, you seem to never pve at all otherwise youd know that:

- pve is worlds different from spvp and wvw. this has nothing to do with player skill. Scaling of players is no concern since pve enemys can get scaled howerver arenanet wants, make them cc immune, etc. -> also a moot point. The mere fact that you compare pve to spvp is sad. Not even going to get into the most basic difference of rotations, duration of fights (huge factor in balancing for spvp not so much for pve), class demand, etc.

- you seem to be under the impression TC is only refering to open world zergs, the pinacle of pve content. Or maybe he was more worried about fractal and raid viability of his class.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

This why we’re seeing 10 guards or 10 revenants doing raids. There is also a video of a revenant soloing vale guardians in beta weekend.

And they got all the way to Goreseval and failed the damage gating. There is a reason guardians are rare in raids.

But all of this is moot, since as I said, pve is way different from spvp and wvw. Hence the valid question: why does the entire game get balanced around 1 game mode, instead of splitting skills.

Let’s ask the NPCs and see what they say if our skills are OP.

Honest, I think we need to nerf most classes in PvE as well because most content is a pushover for most classes.

Mortifer.2946:

It is not about overall DPS, we are not asking for DPS, we are asking for balance so all professions are viable there. Current situation is, if you are not burnzerker warrior/DPS herald/fresh air tempest/alacrity chronomancer/heal druid you are not welcomed in a raid party.

It will always be this way in PvE, no matter how Anet balances the game. There will always be those “best” comps, because unlike players, PvE enemys don’t adapt and try to counter the meta. And many player want to play only with those builds, because it makes it easier, faster, or because they don’t know it any better, even if tons of other builds are totally viable and the difference would be barely noticable. At least in casual runs.
If people wait 10 mins or longer to find players with the perfect classes and refuse to take anything else, even if the difference in run time would be way less than their waiting time, it has nothing to do with bad balance. It is just stupidity and that’s something, Anet can’t change.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Mortifer.2946:

It is not about overall DPS, we are not asking for DPS, we are asking for balance so all professions are viable there. Current situation is, if you are not burnzerker warrior/DPS herald/fresh air tempest/alacrity chronomancer/heal druid you are not welcomed in a raid party.

It will always be this way in PvE, no matter how Anet balances the game. There will always be those “best” comps, because unlike players, PvE enemys don’t adapt and try to counter the meta. And many player want to play only with those builds, because it makes it easier, faster, or because they don’t know it any better, even if tons of other builds are totally viable and the difference would be barely noticable. At least in casual runs.
If people wait 10 mins or longer to find players with the perfect classes and refuse to take anything else, even if the difference in run time would be way less than their waiting time, it has nothing to do with bad balance. It is just stupidity and that’s something, Anet can’t change.

Agreed, doesn’t mean they have to balance around spvp and make things worse.

Also those 10 minute arguments (which I completely agree on for fractals) kind of become moot when people are looking for spots in raids.

I wish Anet would remove gear and food from wvw, and use the pvp amulet system. Actualy, gear creates more imbalance in this game mode than anything else.

circuitnerd.5863:

So to me it seems that everytime they do a balance patch it’s based off of pvp and it feels like pve isn’t taken into consideration.

That’s called ‘selective memory’. Pretty much everything about the big rework of conditions was driven by PvE, some of it to the considerable detriment of PvP interplay (confusion now always damaging you when before you could make more meaningful choices about when to mash buttons or hold your actions).

They want to keep the walls between play modes as low as possible so new players can migrate between them without feeling like they need to learn a whole new game. That means abilities are ALWAYS being looked at in multiple contexts.

TexZero.7910:

Two sides of the same coin. PvE is suffering due to PvP balance. The skew of “Dominant Classes” near end game is largely due to the raw numbers given to skills for PvP purposes.

Or did we all magically forget the huge outcry for Rev’s “Lack of Damage and Utility”….Whoops CoR exist, Sword AA was buffed between BW3 and Launch.
Or how bout them Condi Rev’s in PvP that only got their conditions increased between BW3 and launch as well.

It’s a global problem not limited to one side or the other. Hence why splitting the balance would be best, however it requires more resources and time than Anet is willing to devote currently.

While its cool that currently skills are uniform, that same uniformity is causing issues in all modes. This is exactly why other games (to use LoL for an example) have different items for 3v3 compared to those found in 5v5. Two unique modes, require two unique ways of adjusting because lets face it conquest matters jack all to PvE and vice-versa.

I get what you mean, but it should be possible to match this: Game without trinity (well, it used to be) = all classes and builds are equally strong. We were nearly at that point before June – I was running one build for all 3 game modes. Now I have at least 2 (don’t pvp anymore). And I didn’t care for HoT at all – so I don’t know what anyone said about revenant.

Mortifer.2946:

Reverence.6915:

You legit can nerf every single class for PvE for around 20%-30% of their total DPS and you could still complete the raid just fine. The fact that people can’t is simply a L2P issue. Like it has been said earlier, there’s been instances of people soloing raid bosses already. Balancing around PvE is idiotic.

That said, if the devs decide to split up WvW, PvE and PvP balancing, that would be a good day, but until then, balance based on PvP only.

It is not about overall DPS, we are not asking for DPS, we are asking for balance so all professions are viable there. Current situation is, if you are not burnzerker warrior/DPS herald/fresh air tempest/alacrity chronomancer/heal druid you are not welcomed in a raid party.

So form your own raid party? Don’t you have a guild to run raids with? This isn’t an issue with balance, but with players too lazy to organise their own business

Reverence.6915:

Mortifer.2946:

Reverence.6915:

You legit can nerf every single class for PvE for around 20%-30% of their total DPS and you could still complete the raid just fine. The fact that people can’t is simply a L2P issue. Like it has been said earlier, there’s been instances of people soloing raid bosses already. Balancing around PvE is idiotic.

That said, if the devs decide to split up WvW, PvE and PvP balancing, that would be a good day, but until then, balance based on PvP only.

It is not about overall DPS, we are not asking for DPS, we are asking for balance so all professions are viable there. Current situation is, if you are not burnzerker warrior/DPS herald/fresh air tempest/alacrity chronomancer/heal druid you are not welcomed in a raid party.

So form your own raid party? Don’t you have a guild to run raids with? This isn’t an issue with balance, but with players too lazy to organise their own business

The 10 guardian raid that didn’t pass Goreseval begs to differ.

While I agree the raid is lenient on damage required for Vale Guardian and Sabatha since those fights are more based on technique, Goreseval is a hard damage race. Do people finish him with minutes left over? Sure, by squeezing the maximum out of best per encounter classes and running multiple burnzerkers (at the moment) and lots of heralds.

Do Goreseval with 10 not top tier damage classes, or with even only 5 not top tier damage classes and come back and ask for 20-30% damage reduction.

That’s the core problem, different classes being more or less viable for current pve content getting hit by changes that are aimed at spvp.