Guild Wars 2

I know there is always the question in game forums about balance. Some people think a class or classes should get a nerf and some think a class or classes should get a boost. It is never an easy thing as any developer, designer, or anyone who knows the game industry can tell you. But there are certain times the call for nerfing or buffing is just a rant on some particular aspect they dislike. This works beyond classes and can be various parts of the game. A food change can affect a class, a class change can affect a style of play and so on and so on. I just wanted to create a post and see where people currently stand on Balance in Guild Wars 2. To alleviate some ill conceptions about what balance is and is not I’ve found and interesting web clip that can answer some questions and enlighten those who wish to view it. http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

Now for the discussion- What do you find in game that is most unbalanced in your opinion, and very importantly what do you think can help to fix it? Please take a moment to watch the short vid, and reply with constructive responses. Thanks

The funny thing is ppl where using that link to complain that GW2 was too balanced when the game first came out.

Condition dmg need to be fixed some to keep it in lines with crit dmg builds. How to fix this i think adding more if mob has x on it then you do dmg or something to help your team base off your condition dmg. Say it lets you do a heal for your pt if a mob is bleeding or you remove condition on your pt if the mob is on fire. Just something to make up for not having the highest condition stack on your hero in your pt.

I think the video points out a big problem in GW2, that cyclic balance occurs with a huge variety of builds.

That simply isn’t happening right now, what with most classes being restricted to 1-2 viable builds. Once we truly see Anet’s vision of one class being able to do anything as long as they are slotted correctly, will we see a more interesting and deep meta in their PvP portion of the game.

For example, Guardian bunkers are strong because they bunker well against EVERYTHING. Now suppose Necros/Rangers had some sorta viable anti-bunker build that countered Guardian Bunkers. But they DON’T counter Ele Bunkers. But then Ele bunkers are more easily countered by Thief/Wars, and etc…

Would be ideal. Even more ideal is if a Guardian could build for 2 different types of bunkers, one ideal against Condition Damage, one ideal against direct damage.

But alas, that is far away.

either nerf perception to 30% crit cap
or allow conditions and heals to crit.

crit is overpowered mainly due to the ‘on crit’ effects: food effects, sigil effects and trait effects, if conditions and heals will be allowed to crit , then these builds would be viable also.

I think game balance is an issue that will come along slowly. I believe that in GW1, PvP skills were separate from PvE skills, at least in that many skills had very different effects in the two environments.

Eventually, this may be applied to GW2, and could potentially address some of the current issues. I know that a Warrior is quite possibly at the very top of the PvE metagame, but among the most difficult to succeed with in sPvP.

On the whole, I believe that game companies are a little more observant than players tend to give them credit for. The latter group is far and away less patient, and 30 days of a perceived imbalance can feel like a lifetime (and can create a stream of whine that needs two lifetimes to read). However, the correct approach is indeed to wait and see, allowing the situation to play out. DOTA, the game that I view as the model of PvP class balance and correctly applied changes, used fairly modest buffs and nerfs in order to never shake the landscape too hard. For the most part, ANet has been pretty moderate with the buffs / nerfs so far, and this is something I approve of.

The immediate future of GW2 balance should see a split in PvE and PvP skills for all their respective classes. This will enable proper balance across two completely different games. Giving a more complete feel to the sPvP landscape as a whole should even take priority over ‘balancing’ the game. There is only one type of game mode, and balancing is nearly pointless without fleshing out what types of maps the players will play in. For example, bunkers are the kings of point capping, but what about deathmatch? Escort? MOBA? There are many things to accomplish before the finer tuning of each class’ individual power grade happens.

Balance is not particularly good, and there is not enough build flexibility for a metagame of counter builds to evolve naturally.

Very little effort has been put into balancing the game, with most of the ‘buffs and nerfs’ we see really being bug fixes at their heart, with balance implications of secondary concern. I cannot blame them for this, because bug fixes are important in the long run regardless of balance implications, and their game is very, very difficult to balance – more so than the original Guild Wars.

Honestly, I wouldn’t even look at balance right now in their shoes. They have major design problems with many of their skills and weapon sets, and weapon design is the core of their game. They need to get the play patterns of their different characters and sets into a reasonable shape before they even start thinking about balance concerns.

As for sPvP, balance is the least of their worries there. The format has major, major structural problems, and if they don’t feel like addressing those they’re honestly wasting their time.

That video could include GW1 in the perfect games like UO, MG and LoL, because it was just like that ..and on PvX wiki you could have found hundreds of Meta-Game builds

BECAUSE SKILLS ARE CONNECTED TO THE WEAPON AND ALWAYS THE SAME from lvl 1 to 80 ….GW2 can never be like that

To create Perfect Imbalance , you need A LOT OF OPTIONS …in GW1, every class had 120 – 160 skills ….now imagine the styles and combinations …

For example, perfectly viable and FUN build was PET RANGER ….do we even have one now ?

How can there be many options and viable builds when 4 class’s have 2~4 weapon sets -.-"

IE, Ele’s won’t ever move from DD unless of a TOTAL Staff/Scepter overhaul … and who can blame them … they only have 3 weapons -.-"

;)

Lillian Wandom Hale.7102:

That video could include GW1 in the perfect games like UO, MG and LoL, because it was just like that ..and on PvX wiki you could have found hundreds of Meta-Game builds

BECAUSE SKILLS ARE CONNECTED TO THE WEAPON AND ALWAYS THE SAME from lvl 1 to 80 ….GW2 can never be like that

To create Perfect Imbalance , you need A LOT OF OPTIONS …in GW1, every class had 120 – 160 skills ….now imagine the styles and combinations …

For example, perfectly viable and FUN build was PET RANGER ….do we even have one now ?

How can there be many options and viable builds when 4 class’s have 2~4 weapon sets -.-"

IE, Ele’s won’t ever move from DD unless of a TOTAL Staff/Scepter overhaul … and who can blame them … they only have 3 weapons -.-"

;)

Guild Wars 1 had tons of options, but it was not perfectly balanced. It has an evolving meta where there were professions that were flavors of the month, and they were considerably more popular.

There are people, believe it or not, who left Guild Wars 1 because Anet couldn’t balance it. ..because there were too many skills and even worse, there were cross profession builds.

There needs to be a balance between too many skills and not enough skills.

Lillian Wandom Hale.7102:

IE, Ele’s won’t ever move from DD unless of a TOTAL Staff/Scepter overhaul … and who can blame them … they only have 3 weapons -.-"

;)

Staff, scepter, dagger, focus. I count 4 weapons :p

Condition builds are hampered in PvE dungeon play

Melee is hampered in PvP and some PvE dungeon play

Ele’s have maybe two viable builds

Ranger class is kitten by pet ai and lackluster damage without a pet

Necro class also kitten by poor summon ai

Warriors don’t have enough closers in PvP

All class builds are lackluster compared to berserker builds

All classes have at least one or more skills that are either broken or not working as intended

Engie…nuff said

But at least we got SAB where none of that kitten matters!!!!

Edit: I forgot to put down how to help fix it. Pull the teams off of all the non bug/ non balance teams and put them on the bug and balance teams. And rethink whoever you have as playtesters.

killcannon.2576:

Condition builds are hampered in PvE dungeon play

Melee is hampered in PvP and some PvE dungeon play

Ele’s have maybe two viable builds

Ranger class is kitten by pet ai and lackluster damage without a pet

Necro class also kitten by poor summon ai

Warriors don’t have enough closers in PvP

All class builds are lackluster compared to a berserker builds

All classes have at least one or more skills that are either broken or not working as intended

Engie…nuff said

I pretty much disagree with everything you said, particularly the bit about berserker builds. A lot depends on your play style. I hate my zerker warrior, pretty much more than any other profession. Does he kill stuff fast? Sure. Big, fat hairy deal.

I do better on my memser, who’s not a zerker, and even on my ranger. Those who think rangers suck are simply min/maxers who only care about eeking out every single point of damage they possibly can, often at the expense of survival.

I’ve had many many dungeon runs where my memser, built for survivability, spent the entire time rezzing zerkers.

Not my idea of a good time.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Condition builds are hampered in PvE dungeon play

Melee is hampered in PvP and some PvE dungeon play

Ele’s have maybe two viable builds

Ranger class is kitten by pet ai and lackluster damage without a pet

Necro class also kitten by poor summon ai

Warriors don’t have enough closers in PvP

All class builds are lackluster compared to a berserker builds

All classes have at least one or more skills that are either broken or not working as intended

Engie…nuff said

I pretty much disagree with everything you said, particularly the bit about berserker builds. A lot depends on your play style. I hate my zerker warrior, pretty much more than any other profession. Does he kill stuff fast? Sure. Big, fat hairy deal.

I do better on my memser, who’s not a zerker, and even on my ranger. Those who think rangers suck are simply min/maxers who only care about eeking out every single point of damage they possibly can, often at the expensive of survival.

I’ve had many many dungeon runs where my memser, built for survivability, spent the entire time rezzing zerkers.

Not my idea of a good time.

Vayne says: Conditions are great in dungeon play
Vayne says: Melee is great in pvp and all pve
Vayne says: Ele’s have way more than two viable builds
Vayne says: Ranger pet ai is great, and they have great damage without the pet
Vayne says: The necro summon ai is great
Vayne says: Warriors have plenty of closers in pvp
Vayne says: All class builds are superior to the berserker builds
Vayne says: That no classes have at least one or more skills that are broken or not working as intended
Vayne says: Engies are great and need zero fixes

Are you sure you don’t want to go back and edit that post…just a little? I understand you want to be a middle ground, some things are bad, some things are good kinda forum person….but really? Not just a smidgen?

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Condition builds are hampered in PvE dungeon play

Melee is hampered in PvP and some PvE dungeon play

Ele’s have maybe two viable builds

Ranger class is kitten by pet ai and lackluster damage without a pet

Necro class also kitten by poor summon ai

Warriors don’t have enough closers in PvP

All class builds are lackluster compared to a berserker builds

All classes have at least one or more skills that are either broken or not working as intended

Engie…nuff said

I pretty much disagree with everything you said, particularly the bit about berserker builds. A lot depends on your play style. I hate my zerker warrior, pretty much more than any other profession. Does he kill stuff fast? Sure. Big, fat hairy deal.

I do better on my memser, who’s not a zerker, and even on my ranger. Those who think rangers suck are simply min/maxers who only care about eeking out every single point of damage they possibly can, often at the expensive of survival.

I’ve had many many dungeon runs where my memser, built for survivability, spent the entire time rezzing zerkers.

Not my idea of a good time.

Vayne says: Conditions are great in dungeon play
Vayne says: Melee is great in pvp and all pve
Vayne says: Ele’s have way more than two viable builds
Vayne says: Ranger pet ai is great, and they have great damage without the pet
Vayne says: The necro summon ai is great
Vayne says: Warriors have plenty of closers in pvp
Vayne says: All class builds are superior to the berserker builds
Vayne says: That no classes have at least one or more skills that are broken or not working as intended
Vayne says: Engies are great and need zero fixes

Are you sure you don’t want to go back and edit that post…just a little? I understand you want to be a middle ground, some things are bad, some things are good kinda forum person….but really? Not just a smidgen?

Nope. not even a bit. I stand by what I said. I don’t stand by what YOU said I said, however.

Your point of view is that of a min/maxer. That’s it. You have no other point of view. You can’t see that people do different things or play different ways. It would never occur to you that you can have a less efficient build that still gets the job done, but it’s more fun for you and more fits your play style. You don’t get it, because you’re so involved in your own play style, it’s hard to see that others are not only just as viable, but probably more common.

Most people don’t min/max. It takes a very specific mindset. And tons of people play rangers and enjoy them. I can think of a dozen off hand in my guild. I’m really sorry that you’re so blinded by numbers that you forget how to play games, but not everything is a competition for everyone.

I’m pretty sure the people who complain about rangers on these forums are the most knowledgable people about the profession and pretty much everything they say needs to be fixed, probably does need to be fixed.

I’m just as sure that there are tons of people who never read these forums and don’t see a problem at all, even though the problem exists.

A lot of it depends on mindset and what you want to do in game. As long as you continue to assume everyone playing this game is playing your game, you won’t get it.

Geotherma.2395:

Now for the discussion- What do you find in game that is most unbalanced in your opinion, and very importantly what do you think can help to fix it? Please take a moment to watch the short vid, and reply with constructive responses. Thanks

Players. Growing up.

So …wait, the Ranger does have problems now? After you said you disagreed with it? And I quote “I disagree with everything you said”

And nice try guessing what kind of player I am or my builds.

Wellomancer Necro
Toughness healing axe/mace warrior
Cookie cutter ele- because it works (and I don’t want to fall over dead from a sudden breeze)
Beastmaster Hunter crit vitality build (and she replaced my ele as my main,and I enjoy the class)
Mesmer toughness build (have no idea what it’s called)
And hopefully an engie build one day that isn’t sneered at by all the other classes.

I don’t theory craft, I just play what feels right to me.
I don’t even know how to min/max in this game because I don’t care.
I have no clue what percentages of what attribute gives me percentage of blah blah, whenever i see one of those posts my eyes glaze over.

That list was pulled from the Professions forums, from fixes that people have been asking for.

Next time you post in a thread topic asking for what you think needs fixed, try actually posting what you think needs fixed instead of just coming in and saying someone else is wrong. Troll harder.

killcannon.2576:

So …wait, the Ranger does have problems now? After you said you disagreed with it? And I quote “I disagree with everything you said”

And nice try guessing what kind of player I am or my builds.

Wellomancer Necro
Toughness healing axe/mace warrior
Cookie cutter ele- because it works
Beastmaster Hunter crit vitality build (and she replaced my ele as my main,and I enjoy the class)
Mesmer toughness build (have no idea what it’s called)
And hopefully an engie build one day that isn’t sneered at by all the other classes.

I don’t theory craft, I just play what feels right to me.
I don’t even know how to min/max in this game because I don’t care.
I have no clue what percentages of what attribute gives me percentage of blah blah, whenever i see one of those posts my eyes glaze over.

That list was pulled from the Professions forums, from fixes that people have been asking for.

Next time you post in a thread topic asking for what you think needs fixed, try actually posting what you think needs fixed instead of just coming in and saying someone else is wrong. Troll harder.

I’m not trolling. I’m expressing an opinion. I’m saying that every single game in existence has stuff that needs to be fixed, particularly balance stuff. At least that’s true of MMORPGs. Go to any forum for any MMORPG and find me people not complaining about balance.

What I’m saying is that saying things are broken because you read them on a forum is just sort of silly. I play my ranger just fine and I have no problem playing my ranger. People should probably use ranged pets in dungeons like spiders and swap them out frequently, they should learn to play what the profession offers, not what they think it should offer.

And still will get fixed at some point, but it’s not as bleak as you make it sound and you did make it sound bleak.

A new player reading what you said would think the game is a disaster, and I don’t think it is. Because I play every profession and do quite well with them.

Saying that only zerker classes are viable marks you as a certain type of player. If you’re not playing that way, you’re misrepresenting yourself.

I don’t troll, btw, and you probably shouldn’t call me one, because someone will end up reporting you for it, and you’ll get nasty letter from the mods (like I did lol).

Just ignore Vayne, whole Forum did
(he often states his/her opinion and thinks that other have at least similar opinion …problem is he/she can’t express his opinion very well, even though some are not that far from truth :
IE, he/she should have agreed somewhat with your ideas, and then correct what HE/SHE thinks is slightly different )

as to Stof …okay ..Ele has 4 weapons … then Warrior and Guardian have >10
XD , No wonder they’re easiest and most played classes in game ^^

and yes Vayne … so far this game really is a disaster , especially the way it’s headed ^^
That’s what other people on forum are trying to tell you.

When a person does something wrong in few weeks, then again in few weeks ..then limits it’s work to once a month, also doing stuff wrong over and over again ….Players can forsee that That Person ( GW2) is headed in a terrible direction, and trough forums they want to express their opinion, realizations, and to WARN others about it

9 months have passed …
- Ele has 1 viable build
- Pet Ai still sucks
- Conditions are terrible aside from 1v1

It’s not a month, it’s not 2 or 3 months ..it’s not Half a year …. This summer will be 1 year of GW2 …. CORE PROBLEMS SINCE BETA still not fixed ….

Would you suggest this game to someone ? (who you don’t hate and want them to waste money)

Lillian Wandom Hale.7102:

and yes Vayne … so far this game really is a disaster , especially the way it’s headed ^^
That’s what other people on forum are trying to tell you.

When a person does something wrong in few weeks, then again in few weeks ..then limits it’s work to once a month, also doing stuff wrong over and over again ….Players can forsee that That Person ( GW2) is headed in a terrible direction, and trough forums they want to express their opinion, realizations, and to WARN others about it

9 months have passed …
- Ele has 1 viable build
- Pet Ai still sucks
- Conditions are terrible aside from 1v1

It’s not a month, it’s not 2 or 3 months ..it’s not Half a year …. This summer will be 1 year of GW2 …. CORE PROBLEMS SINCE BETA still not fixed ….

Would you suggest this game to someone ? (who you don’t hate and want them to waste money)

There are plenty of people on these forums who agree with me. It doesn’t matter if you’re not one of them. I’ve gotten notes from people who thanked me for expressing what they wanted to.

And yes, it’s half a year. Do you know what most MMOs are like in half a year? A hell of a lot worse than this one. Even WoW was much worse than this at the 7 month mark.

That’s the problem with people today. They want everything now.

Dude people are demanding now because there will always be someone else in the future who actually gives the players what they want. If Anet waits to long to fix the issues, new games will come out and everyone will be tired with this. They don’t really have time to sit around and wait, with no communication of the direction they are heading.

And if the peoples voices aren’t important to the company than this isn’t an mmo I particularly want to play for years to come.

ScottBroChill.3254:

Dude people are demanding now because there will always be someone else in the future who actually gives the players what they want. If Anet waits to long to fix the issues, new games will come out and everyone will be tired with this. They don’t really have time to sit around and wait, with no communication of the direction they are heading.

And if the peoples voices aren’t important to the company than this isn’t an mmo I particularly want to play for years to come.

If the new games try to fix the issues fast, because people demand stuff, the new games will crash and burn. The reason for this is because different groups of people demand different things. So it’s not so simple to just do what people say. Any designer who does is risking the game.

Lots of people have asked for raids in this game, but I don’t see any. Some people asked for something to work toward and Anet compromised. I’m sure they didn’t just say, okay that sounds good. I’m sure they had meeting about it and discussed it. Maybe some people were against and it some were for it. No one knows, because no one was there.

If any game has bugs and they try to fix them too fast, they end up with even more bugs, or a bad fix. Rift had this problem starting out. For a while, they were upgrading every night, usually during my prime playing time (I’m in Australia) and a couple of times a week, I’d have to redo my entire build because they changed it so drastically. Do you think that was more fun? Do you think people left or stayed over that stuff.

And it’s not like most of the changes were much better. Some seemed worse to me. But it’s the nature of the game. No one has the big picture but the company. People think they know, but do they really?

Do you really know what’s better for this game than Anet? If they follow your advice, will they stay in business or go out of business.

This would be so easy if everyone wanted the same stuff…but we don’t. So it takes time to unravel and fix things. And any game worth it’s salt will take time to get going. Most MMOs have a shaking out period, where things have to get fixed. We’re in one now.

Vayne.8563:

ScottBroChill.3254:

Dude people are demanding now because there will always be someone else in the future who actually gives the players what they want. If Anet waits to long to fix the issues, new games will come out and everyone will be tired with this. They don’t really have time to sit around and wait, with no communication of the direction they are heading.

And if the peoples voices aren’t important to the company than this isn’t an mmo I particularly want to play for years to come.

If the new games try to fix the issues fast, because people demand stuff, the new games will crash and burn. The reason for this is because different groups of people demand different things. So it’s not so simple to just do what people say. Any designer who does is risking the game.

Lots of people have asked for raids in this game, but I don’t see any. Some people asked for something to work toward and Anet compromised. I’m sure they didn’t just say, okay that sounds good. I’m sure they had meeting about it and discussed it. Maybe some people were against and it some were for it. No one knows, because no one was there.

If any game has bugs and they try to fix them too fast, they end up with even more bugs, or a bad fix. Rift had this problem starting out. For a while, they were upgrading every night, usually during my prime playing time (I’m in Australia) and a couple of times a week, I’d have to redo my entire build because they changed it so drastically. Do you think that was more fun? Do you think people left or stayed over that stuff.

And it’s not like most of the changes were much better. Some seemed worse to me. But it’s the nature of the game. No one has the big picture but the company. People think they know, but do they really?

Do you really know what’s better for this game than Anet? If they follow your advice, will they stay in business or go out of business.

This would be so easy if everyone wanted the same stuff…but we don’t. So it takes time to unravel and fix things. And any game worth it’s salt will take time to get going. Most MMOs have a shaking out period, where things have to get fixed. We’re in one now.

But you can’t keep speculating on the future as your only means for playing. And you seem to only argue with hypothetical questions that have nothing to do with the problems of the game. Stick to the topics dude and quit telling people who disagree with you that they are wrong, your coming off as a major fan boy and a lot of the people who are seriously discussing issues can’t take your arguments seriously. Please, everytime I post you tell me I’m wrong will a follow up question akin to “How do you know what’s best?” and I respond with that I don’t know. I know this game has issues, and that’s what the community is trying to discuss, to find out the best solution because we aren’t to keen on the ones ANET is providing.

ScottBroChill.3254:

Vayne.8563:

ScottBroChill.3254:

Dude people are demanding now because there will always be someone else in the future who actually gives the players what they want. If Anet waits to long to fix the issues, new games will come out and everyone will be tired with this. They don’t really have time to sit around and wait, with no communication of the direction they are heading.

And if the peoples voices aren’t important to the company than this isn’t an mmo I particularly want to play for years to come.

If the new games try to fix the issues fast, because people demand stuff, the new games will crash and burn. The reason for this is because different groups of people demand different things. So it’s not so simple to just do what people say. Any designer who does is risking the game.

Lots of people have asked for raids in this game, but I don’t see any. Some people asked for something to work toward and Anet compromised. I’m sure they didn’t just say, okay that sounds good. I’m sure they had meeting about it and discussed it. Maybe some people were against and it some were for it. No one knows, because no one was there.

If any game has bugs and they try to fix them too fast, they end up with even more bugs, or a bad fix. Rift had this problem starting out. For a while, they were upgrading every night, usually during my prime playing time (I’m in Australia) and a couple of times a week, I’d have to redo my entire build because they changed it so drastically. Do you think that was more fun? Do you think people left or stayed over that stuff.

And it’s not like most of the changes were much better. Some seemed worse to me. But it’s the nature of the game. No one has the big picture but the company. People think they know, but do they really?

Do you really know what’s better for this game than Anet? If they follow your advice, will they stay in business or go out of business.

This would be so easy if everyone wanted the same stuff…but we don’t. So it takes time to unravel and fix things. And any game worth it’s salt will take time to get going. Most MMOs have a shaking out period, where things have to get fixed. We’re in one now.

But you can’t keep speculating on the future as your only means for playing. And you seem to only argue with hypothetical questions that have nothing to do with the problems of the game. Stick to the topics dude and quit telling people who disagree with you that they are wrong, your coming off as a major fan boy and a lot of the people who are seriously discussing issues can’t take your arguments seriously. Please, everytime I post you tell me I’m wrong will a follow up question akin to “How do you know what’s best?” and I respond with that I don’t know. I know this game has issues, and that’s what the community is trying to discuss, to find out the best solution because we aren’t to keen on the ones ANET is providing.

When someone comes along and says, this sucks, that sucks, the other thing sucks, I think about it.

Does it really suck? Are rangers really not viable? If that’s the case, how is one guy in my guild maining one and finishing all the content? They must be viable. Same with other professions.

Of course the game has issues. I can point you to quite a few threads where I agreed with them. It depends on how someone expresses the issues.

There are people here saying the game will be dead in a matter of months. Is that constructive? Can they back it up? Is that truth?

There are guys here who say that any build that’s not zerker is lackluster. Is that truth? I must play a lot of lackluster characters.

There are ways of expressing things that are constructive, and there are people who just like to complain.

Stuff like people complaining about not having an LFG tool when we know they’re working on one…well they can complain all they like. But it’s not going to stop that fact that we’ll get it when it’s ready.

I don’t see the need to kowtow to this looming negativity, because some people love hyperbole or like to exaagerate.

I can be reasonable, when responding to something that’s portrayed as reasonable.

I love this game, ok. But I’m telling you, man, the balance is kitten. And that’s a good thing. Because that tells me that the developers are still human, since I haven’t come across a game that has a perfect balance between all the characters yet.

But GW2 balance is more kitten than the regular kitten, if you are only looking at it at the “combat prowess” point of view.

For Engineers and Necros, life is just sad. Don’t argue with me on this, Ive tried it. Equipped with exotic gears and tried whatever build, the amount of damage done in the amount of time can not compare with the other classes. Not to mention survivability.

The other classes – I’ve seen it, they all can be stretched to the same maximum potential BUT the difference is in the amount of effort required to do so, with the Warriors and Guardians having the least difficulty.

Ensign.2189:

Balance is not particularly good, and there is not enough build flexibility for a metagame of counter builds to evolve naturally.

Very little effort has been put into balancing the game, with most of the ‘buffs and nerfs’ we see really being bug fixes at their heart, with balance implications of secondary concern. I cannot blame them for this, because bug fixes are important in the long run regardless of balance implications, and their game is very, very difficult to balance – more so than the original Guild Wars.

Honestly, I wouldn’t even look at balance right now in their shoes. They have major design problems with many of their skills and weapon sets, and weapon design is the core of their game. They need to get the play patterns of their different characters and sets into a reasonable shape before they even start thinking about balance concerns.

As for sPvP, balance is the least of their worries there. The format has major, major structural problems, and if they don’t feel like addressing those they’re honestly wasting their time.

By far the best post in the thread. GW2 has major design issues with class/build diversity – for most classes there isn’t any.

The game design is too rigid. The linearity of skills being completely bound to weapons and trait lines being completely bound to weapons/utility skill types/stats has to be broken. Other design constraints are even more baffling – why are Ele’s forced to change attunements frequently just to perform at baseline effectiveness? There’s no good design reason to limit the whole class to exist within that 1 mechanic… silly.

GW2’s floundering PVP situation is more a function of poor game design rather than balance IMO – shifting some numbers around isn’t going to fix the problem – players will continue to select the best weapon + the best trait line(s) + the best utilities, and due to the aforementioned ultra-tight binding of weapon and utility to trait line and stats, only a tiny number of “good” builds can result. Case in point, 8 months after release and the metagame has not changed at all.

killcannon.2576:

Condition builds are hampered in PvE dungeon play

Melee is hampered in PvP and some PvE dungeon play

Ele’s have maybe two viable builds

Ranger class is kitten by pet ai and lackluster damage without a pet

Necro class also kitten by poor summon ai

Warriors don’t have enough closers in PvP

All class builds are lackluster compared to berserker builds

All classes have at least one or more skills that are either broken or not working as intended

Engie…nuff said

But at least we got SAB where none of that kitten matters!!!!

Edit: I forgot to put down how to help fix it. Pull the teams off of all the non bug/ non balance teams and put them on the bug and balance teams. And rethink whoever you have as playtesters.

Dead on with everything, i’m not holding my breath with fixes to be honest, everytime they say we are getting fixes half the classes get shafted, so i gave up hoping plain and simple…

Engi… heh, mine still has no traits since the last update because its now unplayable anymore…

Those last two post really sum up all of the concerns. No variety in skill bar options and no variety in how to play those bars. The class mechanics should really be called class gimmicks. They really limit the way the class can be played. the whole skill system and trait system needs such a massive overhaul.

ScottBroChill.3254:

Those last two post really sum up all of the concerns. No variety in skill bar options and no variety in how to play those bars. The class mechanics should really be called class gimmicks. They really limit the way the class can be played. the whole skill system and trait system needs such a massive overhaul.

Actually the first post summed it up, the second post was just agreeing without adding anything.

I don’t feel limited by most class mechanics. I certainly don’t feel limited by death shroud, for example, and I don’t feel limited by the warrior’s andrenaline and I’ve frequently found the engineer’s toolkit skills to be very useful (big ole bomb, anyone?).

People keep saying the engineer is worthless. Well yeah, I probably wouldn’t use my engie in top level content, but I have a guy in my guild who wins consistently at SPvP with his engie (much more than other professions he’s tried), and another guy who farms Orr with his engie, using the bomb kit, which is really quite useful.

Use your pistol to pull in a bunch of guys and bomb them to death. Actually to me that’s not fun at all, but he seems to enjoy it.

Vayne.8563:

ScottBroChill.3254:

Those last two post really sum up all of the concerns. No variety in skill bar options and no variety in how to play those bars. The class mechanics should really be called class gimmicks. They really limit the way the class can be played. the whole skill system and trait system needs such a massive overhaul.

Actually the first post summed it up, the second post was just agreeing without adding anything.

I don’t feel limited by most class mechanics. I certainly don’t feel limited by death shroud, for example, and I don’t feel limited by the warrior’s andrenaline and I’ve frequently found the engineer’s toolkit skills to be very useful (big ole bomb, anyone?).

People keep saying the engineer is worthless. Well yeah, I probably wouldn’t use my engie in top level content, but I have a guy in my guild who wins consistently at SPvP with his engie (much more than other professions he’s tried), and another guy who farms Orr with his engie, using the bomb kit, which is really quite useful.

Use your pistol to pull in a bunch of guys and bomb them to death. Actually to me that’s not fun at all, but he seems to enjoy it.

you really had to say the part about how both posts were basically the same? stop getting so petty. And that’s fine if you don’t feel limited by the class mechanic, but if you don’t play around the mechanic than your at a loss. And how is it that if you don’t use death shroud your going to die not limiting? The thief and warrior class mechanics are the least restrictive because they are such shallow mechanics. The engineers is the only one you can really have full customization for. For example, the ele plays similarly like the invoker from Dota2 in the sense that you just keep casting and casting and switching you bar out. The difference is, is that in dota2 when you pick your skill bar you have a bunch of different champions to choose from and not only the invoker. It’s sad that my skills are almost as stale and static as a moba characters bar, that to me is a problem. I’ve traited my thief to have his steal skill pimped out, but at what cost? now the rest of his skill bar has nothing added to it just so I can have a useful skill on a 45sec cd that gives me a semi-random skill that takes up my steal skill spot if I don’t burn the replacement. The warrior is just a burst skill that gives extra dps, not really game changing but sort of pointless and makes it so the rest of the skill bar has to be scaled down to account for the burst. The ranger pets make you really on AI for some of its damage, and we know how the enemy AI is, it’s not very good for being reliable. the mesmers is clones and shatters which almost are pointless in pve, in pvp there good but it’s a gimmick playstyle that can be destroyed with one simple aoe skill. Now they had to boost mesmers power, making them op in pvp and portal gimmicks in pve. the guardians is actually decent because it’s mostly just a passive that can periodically be transferred to allies so it doesn’t get in the way. You get my point? Forcing all the power in these mechanics takes everything away from diversity. Some classes mechanics are less important, and you’ll find so much more freedom in those classes.

I think this topic has gone slightly off-topic.

PvP balancing and PvE balancing are two different beasts. The video the OP posts is strictly about PvP balancing, since it requires an adaptable human mind on both sides of the competition for an evolving meta to occur.

PvE balancing is much different beast due to the fact that it deals with NPC enemies that have no abilities to adapt. The meta cannot evolve, and the devs must take a much heavier hand when it comes to balancing PvE. However, it also can be argued that PvE balance is much less important than PvP balance simply due to the absence of competition, because “balance” is incredibly important from a competitive stand-point but less so from a “My War clears CoF in 7 minutes, but my Ranger clears it in 10 minutes.”

Yeah, sorry about that. I just wanted to make a convincing argument that states why it’s hard to balance and make a competitive environment around gimmicks.

It’s actually a really interesting statement, the whole “GW2 has limited skills” argument.

I don’t see it as a case. Take for examples Warriors. They have 4 2-hand weapons, 3 main-hand weapons, and 5 off-hand weapons. That is a total of 19 possible weapon combinations that you can hold. (4 + 3*5). With weapon swapping, that is a total of 342 possible weapon combinations you can have (19 * 18).

So there’s really no lack of choices. What’s the problem? When’s the last time you’ve seen a S/S Warrior? Or a Mace/Warhorn Warrior? Heck just a non-GS Warrior really.

The problem isn’t lack of variety, the problem is the lack of viability. Most of the possible Warrior weapon combos just fail at things required in the meta-game of PvP currently (Bunkering/Bursting/Roaming). Which hamstrings the variability and limits Warriors to a few specific builds.

People say how GW2’s skillbar limits options. I don’t see it like that at all. Each classes (save Engi/Eles perhaps, but that’s a whole different discussion). Have quite a wide pool of pre-set skill combos to choose from. The problem lies in the fact that all this variability is USELESS when only a few of them is truly useful.

Then there is the flipside argument of course, whether these builds are truly useless, or just because players just haven’t given them a fair chance? The evolving meta is the crux of the argument when people resist big sweeping balance changes.

EDIT: oh, that’s 342 combinations with just weapon skills. When you add in the healing (3), utility (20) and elite (3) skills, you get a TON more combinations of skills. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation yields a total of 21,053,520 possible skill permutations. That is variability folks, most of it useless. And this isn’t even talking about traits.

Sorry, forgot to add this video as well for explanation. http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill

What, if any, weapons do you believe are being under utilized by other players? And how would you go about changing them?

Also for those who really hate the idea of being stuck with 5-10 base skills, what do you think they could add/change while keeping balance in mind.

Ursan.7846:

It’s actually a really interesting statement, the whole “GW2 has limited skills” argument.

I don’t see it as a case. Take for examples Warriors. They have 4 2-hand weapons, 3 main-hand weapons, and 5 off-hand weapons. That is a total of 19 possible weapon combinations that you can hold. (4 + 3*5). With weapon swapping, that is a total of 342 possible weapon combinations you can have (19 * 18).

So there’s really no lack of choices. What’s the problem? When’s the last time you’ve seen a S/S Warrior? Or a Mace/Warhorn Warrior? Heck just a non-GS Warrior really.

The problem isn’t lack of variety, the problem is the lack of viability. Most of the possible Warrior weapon combos just fail at things required in the meta-game of PvP currently (Bunkering/Bursting/Roaming). Which hamstrings the variability and limits Warriors to a few specific builds.

People say how GW2’s skillbar limits options. I don’t see it like that at all. Each classes (save Engi/Eles perhaps, but that’s a whole different discussion). Have quite a wide pool of pre-set skill combos to choose from. The problem lies in the fact that all this variability is USELESS when only a few of them is truly useful.

Then there is the flipside argument of course, whether these builds are truly useless, or just because players just haven’t given them a fair chance? The evolving meta is the crux of the argument when people resist big sweeping balance changes.

EDIT: oh, that’s 342 combinations with just weapon skills. When you add in the healing (3), utility (20) and elite (3) skills, you get a TON more combinations of skills. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation yields a total of 21,053,520 possible skill permutations. That is variability folks, most of it useless. And this isn’t even talking about traits.

You do have a point that there are a ton of skills and combos available for warriors. I would say though that they are lackluster. I feel that the basic skills, take axe/axe for example, are too simple. Some people may not use a combination simply because to them it is boring. Now I’m not saying they should change all the skills to be cool but there are some things that could be done to make them more interesting to use.

Probably a simpler answer. Add skill animations, like for axe 1 skill. If you are dual wielding why not hit with both axes (visually only). It doesn’t have to do more damage, just simply look more aesthetically pleasing. Or those chains you see, add some more that basically do the same thing but have more animations. If I can hit skill 1 5 times it would be cool to see 5 different animations. Then I hit 4 and maybe the first time is the skill stated and it swaps over to version 2. So the next time you hit 4 it looks different. I think aesthetics are important in game skills especially when there is so few of them for some classes.

Granted I have my own way of playing I like axe/axe warrior with rifle as swap. But after 80 levels of tediously using these skills they become severely lackluster and bland. I really think much could be done to all the classes and skills to make every class more interesting to play. Because we don’t want everyone going mesmer “because they are cool”. I think the bias to “cool” is creating a problem with determining what classes are rising and falling. Because while they may generate numbers on whos play what style of build for each class, hoe many people are simply choosing just build/class A because it is more “exciting” aesthetically to them. Clearly we could all have the same skills (see SaB) and if player A had a cooler looking skill 1, player B would want that instead. Even given the fact that they are completely identical. Not to say everyone plays like this but I feel there are several. If you have been there you can post here too, I’m sure many people said “warrior.. hmm 5 skills.. these are kinda boring.. I’ll go try this class instead.”

Ursan.7846:

It’s actually a really interesting statement, the whole “GW2 has limited skills” argument.

I don’t see it as a case. Take for examples Warriors. They have 4 2-hand weapons, 3 main-hand weapons, and 5 off-hand weapons. That is a total of 19 possible weapon combinations that you can hold. (4 + 3*5). With weapon swapping, that is a total of 342 possible weapon combinations you can have (19 * 18).

So there’s really no lack of choices. What’s the problem? When’s the last time you’ve seen a S/S Warrior? Or a Mace/Warhorn Warrior? Heck just a non-GS Warrior really.

The problem isn’t lack of variety, the problem is the lack of viability. Most of the possible Warrior weapon combos just fail at things required in the meta-game of PvP currently (Bunkering/Bursting/Roaming). Which hamstrings the variability and limits Warriors to a few specific builds.

People say how GW2’s skillbar limits options. I don’t see it like that at all. Each classes (save Engi/Eles perhaps, but that’s a whole different discussion). Have quite a wide pool of pre-set skill combos to choose from. The problem lies in the fact that all this variability is USELESS when only a few of them is truly useful.

Then there is the flipside argument of course, whether these builds are truly useless, or just because players just haven’t given them a fair chance? The evolving meta is the crux of the argument when people resist big sweeping balance changes.

EDIT: oh, that’s 342 combinations with just weapon skills. When you add in the healing (3), utility (20) and elite (3) skills, you get a TON more combinations of skills. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation yields a total of 21,053,520 possible skill permutations. That is variability folks, most of it useless. And this isn’t even talking about traits.

See the bold, above. ANet has developed a philosophy for each class, which defines in their minds what that class should — and shouldn’t — be able to do. The problem with that is twofold.

Their philosophy for some classes means that that class is not going to be in the top tier damage-wise. However, there is a widely-held perception that damage is more important than anything else. Whether this is actually the case or not, as long as this perception exists, lower damage classes and builds will be perceived as inferior. A class being viewed as inferior means perceived imbalance.

Also, while every class has many utility skills, some utility options are more highly valued than all of the others. Why, because of the way the “challenges” within GW2 are designed. Can’t speed run without swiftness, condition removal and possibly stability. Some bosses are much better with reflection. PvP without a stun-break? You’re asking to be burst-killed while incapable of response. As a result, many of the skill options are either never used, or only used occasionally. How often do people not have stun break and condition removal on their bar? So, some classes are better because they offer more of the utility options than other classes.

Yes, there are a lot of options but the perception is that there are not that many options that matter. That’s the viability issue.

Devs need to stop focusing on spvp balance, or at least do a -lot- more skill splitting. Very few players care about spvp and it’s honestly not a very well conceived gametype. GW2 will never become the esports phenomenon they wanted it to be. Time to move on.

The condition cap needs to go, completely. Give each player their own stack of burn and poison. Remove the bleed cap. Power characters do not have their damage limited in this way, and neither should condition players. Condition damage and precision should also contribute to the damage you deal to destructables. There is absolutely no reason for these limitations that arbitrarily punish many players. It certainly isn’t as though they do absolutely incredible damage and need to be held back.

Thieves need the ill-conceived revealed changed reverted. Weapons need to be more clearly power or condition based, because currently you just use the skills you’ve geared for and never, ever use the others. You have P/P and D/D thieves who never use anything but skill 3. A bit more group utility is needed. Steal still seems a little superfluous for being a supposedly class defining mechanic.

Necromancers need a massive trait overhaul. You could take away 30 trait points from my necromancer and it would not make the slightest difference because those 30 can only go into garbage. The class needs significantly more group utility. Death Shroud needs to serve more purpose for non-power necromancers.

Elementalists need to be rethought. You get 20 skills, but 15 of them are probably terrible. The inability to switch to a different set of abilities more suited to close or long range during a fight is very stupid, and elementalist traits are almost universally awful.

I don’t know engineers well enough to speak for them, but this class is not particularly great and could use some help.

Rangers are unbelievably bad and I’m not sure the class can be fixed without a massive, Dervish-style overhaul. Probably even more extreme. No redeeming features. The pet mechanic is crippling and out of place in this kind of game, all the traits are mind-bogglingly bad, and I can’t believe ranger utilities exist in their current form. You have a class where the most effective form of play is to run 2 shortbows, swap between them on cooldown, and use no abilities except autoattack if you can help it. What. Then you give them 10% more damage if they stay at full endurance, somehow promoting an even more boring playstyle.

The warrior adrenaline mechanic needs an overhaul. For the most part it is completely ignored in favor of traits that give damage buffs for keeping full adrenaline. Warriors may as well not even have a class mechanic.

There are other minor issues, like guardian sword and shield being pretty bad, or specific elites being worthless, but these are the real major ones as far as I and most everybody in my very large guild is concerned.

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, there is a widely-held perception that damage is more important than anything else. Whether this is actually the case or not…

I believe this is true. The problem is that CC skills don’t do much of equal usefulness to their damage counterparts. Take Dim Vision by Necro in Diablo 2 for example (only one I can think of right now) – whole group of mobs literally cannot move because they cannot see you unless you are in melee range! Its a bit extreme, but that’s what I would call a real, useful CC skill on par with damage skills.

Furthermore, alternative weapon skills do not offer anything to counter weigh the lack of damage. So its not exactly that damage is more important than anything else, but because the alternative doesn’t weigh as much.

For example, I have two Warriors (I really do). One of them weilds a Hammer and Long Bow, and the other is the typical burst zerk-geared 2H and rifle. The 2H and its skills offers a lot of burst damage, while the Hammer (which is obviously designed for Guardians) offers CC in lieu of the burst damage.

But CC is near useless. What am I gonna do with a knock down skill? I cant hit the guy when he’s on the floor, which only lasts a couple of seconds btw. And I don’t have that great of a damage with the weapon either. So it’s like saying “you can use it, but you’ll suck”

However, IMAGINE… if the hammer gives bonus toughness, or a passive chance to stun enemies every now and then for a really long duration. Like 5 seconds. Even on champions. Or break people’s armor in PvP. Or imagine if at the cost of all that burst damage by 2H warriors, they receive more damage or their armor is reduced when and after using 100B (cost is long channeling wuttt). Then people will start to seriously consider between damage and alternative weapons/professions that offer other things.

projectcedric.6951:

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, there is a widely-held perception that damage is more important than anything else. Whether this is actually the case or not…

I believe this is true. The problem is that CC skills don’t do much of equal usefulness to their damage counterparts. Take Dim Vision by Necro in Diablo 2 for example (only one I can think of right now) – whole group of mobs literally cannot move because they cannot see you unless you are in melee range! Its a bit extreme, but that’s what I would call a real, useful CC skill on par with damage skills.

Furthermore, alternative weapon skills do not offer anything to counter weigh the lack of damage. So its not exactly that damage is more important than anything else, but because the alternative doesn’t weigh as much.

For example, I have two Warriors (I really do). One of them weilds a Hammer and Long Bow, and the other is the typical burst zerk-geared 2H and rifle. The 2H and its skills offers a lot of burst damage, while the Hammer (which is obviously designed for Guardians) offers CC in lieu of the burst damage.

But CC is near useless. What am I gonna do with a knock down skill? I cant hit the guy when he’s on the floor, which only lasts a couple of seconds btw. And I don’t have that great of a damage with the weapon either. So it’s like saying “you can use it, but you’ll suck”

However, IMAGINE… if the hammer gives bonus toughness, or a passive chance to stun enemies every now and then for a really long duration. Like 5 seconds. Even on champions. Or break people’s armor in PvP. Or imagine if at the cost of all that burst damage by 2H warriors, they receive more damage or their armor is reduced when and after using 100B (cost is long channeling wuttt). Then people will start to seriously consider between damage and alternative weapons/professions that offer other things.

What you can do with a hammer is interrupt. That’s one of the big uses of knockdown. You’re not just knocking a guy down but you’re interrupting his skill. If you are familiar with the enemy and you can knock them down before they use their heal skill or before they use a particularly powerful attack, it’s actually pretty powerful.

Vayne.8563:

What you can do with a hammer is interrupt. That’s one of the big uses of knockdown. You’re not just knocking a guy down but you’re interrupting his skill. If you are familiar with the enemy and you can knock them down before they use their heal skill or before they use a particularly powerful attack, it’s actually pretty powerful.

As Ive posted in another post, the knockdown/stun/daze to interrupt mechanics is nearly useless.

In Hammer warrior, for example, the knockdown is the fifth-slot skill. It has, if I remember correctly, a 30s cooldown. Attack skills usually have 8-20s cooldown. Even utility attack skills have 20s cooldowns. That means that had I even succeeded in interrupting him, he can cast the skill again and my knockdown will wont be ready. And that is if he is only using one skill. If it is a mob, by the time the skill is ready, it would be dead. If it isn’t, then I might as well have more damage.

Furthermore, the cast time is somewhere around 1s (i think, but i’m sure it’s not instant). The activation time for most skills is around 1/2 – 3/4s. That means the knockdown will never make it in time against most skills. Even for those few skills that have 11/2s activation time or so, that means between me seeing the onset of animation of the opponent casting, reacting and pressing the 5-key, I have 0.5 seconds. Human reaction time is scientifically averaged at 0.39 seconds. That is like a knee-jerk reaction. That is the level of machine that I must be to make this skill intentionally useful in those few cases.

True enough, the only times that I ever successful interrupted an opponent with Backbreak are 1.) by accident – I never intended to interrupt, I was just skill spamming, just so happens that enemy cast a skill AFTER I pressed 5; and 2.) I intentionally interrupted a casting which took more than 2 seconds…of an AoE skill that I could have just dodged anyway.

Its not all that powerful, really. I rarely use it. The only really powerful aspect of the hammer is the low-cooldown weakening Fierce Blow. Cripple, Push Back, Stun only delay the inevitable by a second or so. Cripple and Push Back is nearly useless even in the “protect” events (where you would expect them to be most useful) if I can’t kill the mobs fast enough before they kill the protected. Hence, goes back to damage.

Ursan.7846:

I think the video points out a big problem in GW2, that cyclic balance occurs with a huge variety of builds.

That simply isn’t happening right now, what with most classes being restricted to 1-2 viable builds. Once we truly see Anet’s vision of one class being able to do anything as long as they are slotted correctly, will we see a more interesting and deep meta in their PvP portion of the game.

For example, Guardian bunkers are strong because they bunker well against EVERYTHING. Now suppose Necros/Rangers had some sorta viable anti-bunker build that countered Guardian Bunkers. But they DON’T counter Ele Bunkers. But then Ele bunkers are more easily countered by Thief/Wars, and etc…

Would be ideal. Even more ideal is if a Guardian could build for 2 different types of bunkers, one ideal against Condition Damage, one ideal against direct damage.

But alas, that is far away.

Isn’t this kind what they were saying when talking about toying with the idea of boon hate?

projectcedric.6951:

Vayne.8563:

What you can do with a hammer is interrupt. That’s one of the big uses of knockdown. You’re not just knocking a guy down but you’re interrupting his skill. If you are familiar with the enemy and you can knock them down before they use their heal skill or before they use a particularly powerful attack, it’s actually pretty powerful.

As Ive posted in another post, the knockdown/stun/daze to interrupt mechanics is nearly useless.

In Hammer warrior, for example, the knockdown is the fifth-slot skill. It has, if I remember correctly, a 30s cooldown. Attack skills usually have 8-20s cooldown. Even utility attack skills have 20s cooldowns. That means that had I even succeeded in interrupting him, he can cast the skill again and my knockdown will wont be ready. And that is if he is only using one skill. If it is a mob, by the time the skill is ready, it would be dead. If it isn’t, then I might as well have more damage.

Furthermore, the cast time is somewhere around 1s (i think, but i’m sure it’s not instant). The activation time for most skills is around 1/2 – 3/4s. That means the knockdown will never make it in time against most skills. Even for those few skills that have 11/2s activation time or so, that means between me seeing the onset of animation of the opponent casting, reacting and pressing the 5-key, I have 0.5 seconds. Human reaction time is scientifically averaged at 0.39 seconds. That is like a knee-jerk reaction. That is the level of machine that I must be to make this skill intentionally useful in those few cases.

True enough, the only times that I ever successful interrupted an opponent with Backbreak are 1.) by accident – I never intended to interrupt, I was just skill spamming, just so happens that enemy cast a skill AFTER I pressed 5; and 2.) I intentionally interrupted a casting which took more than 2 seconds…of an AoE skill that I could have just dodged anyway.

Its not all that powerful, really. I rarely use it. The only really powerful aspect of the hammer is the low-cooldown weakening Fierce Blow. Cripple, Push Back, Stun only delay the inevitable by a second or so. Cripple and Push Back is nearly useless even in the “protect” events (where you would expect them to be most useful) if I can’t kill the mobs fast enough before they kill the protected. Hence, goes back to damage.

But usually, most mobs that have powerful skills can only use them maybe once every 20-30 seconds anyway. They can’t use them every 5 seconds, with some exceptions. Again, it depends on who you’re fighting.

You’re not supposed to use knockdown to interupt a random skill. You’re supposed to use it to interupt a skill that means something, which is usually on a much longer cooldown…even for AI.

Vayne.8563:

But usually, most mobs that have powerful skills can only use them maybe once every 20-30 seconds anyway. They can’t use them every 5 seconds, with some exceptions. Again, it depends on who you’re fighting.

You’re not supposed to use knockdown to interupt a random skill. You’re supposed to use it to interupt a skill that means something, which is usually on a much longer cooldown…even for AI.

Then again, how much do these situations come by? The question here is the relative effectiveness and utility of CC and other stuffs compared to damage output alone, because that’s where the line between balance and variety is.

I honestly have never found myself in a situation where a CC skill could have made a difference. If I couldn’t sustain against a Champion, interrupting any of his skills didn’t change that. If I could, it definitely wasn’t because of a CC skill rather than a diversion for him to attack or I just had more damage and toughness than him.

It is much less of significance against regular and veteran mobs. I certainly don’t need to interrupt skills. It’s just a matter of killing things faster (as in farming).

projectcedric.6951:

Vayne.8563:

But usually, most mobs that have powerful skills can only use them maybe once every 20-30 seconds anyway. They can’t use them every 5 seconds, with some exceptions. Again, it depends on who you’re fighting.

You’re not supposed to use knockdown to interupt a random skill. You’re supposed to use it to interupt a skill that means something, which is usually on a much longer cooldown…even for AI.

Then again, how much do these situations come by? The question here is the relative effectiveness and utility of CC and other stuffs compared to damage output alone, because that’s where the line between balance and variety is.

I honestly have never found myself in a situation where a CC skill could have made a difference. If I couldn’t sustain against a Champion, interrupting any of his skills didn’t change that. If I could, it definitely wasn’t because of a CC skill rather than a diversion for him to attack or I just had more damage and toughness than him.

It is much less of significance against regular and veteran mobs. I certainly don’t need to interrupt skills. It’s just a matter of killing things faster (as in farming).

Fair enough point. I think it depends on your play style. I have some characters that use CC to an advantage, some that don’t need at at all.

If you don’t have the kill things fast play style, and not everyone does, it can come in quite handy, perhaps more often than one would think. Then again, it really does depend on knowing the skills of what you’re fighting.

Sometimes I end up using CC just to get guys away from me for the extra two seconds my self-heal needs to recharge.

Vayne.8563:

Fair enough point. I think it depends on your play style. I have some characters that use CC to an advantage, some that don’t need at at all.

If you don’t have the kill things fast play style, and not everyone does, it can come in quite handy, perhaps more often than one would think. Then again, it really does depend on knowing the skills of what you’re fighting.

Sometimes I end up using CC just to get guys away from me for the extra two seconds my self-heal needs to recharge.

I tried that other extreme end of things with my necro. Just pure condition damage and CC build, I don’t even rely on shroud. It can kill but it is frustrating. The amount of time that CC buys you to heal yourself plus the amount of heal combined, relative to your squishiness is just pathetic.

Yes, I know there is be a better way to play that profession that optimizes it, I’ve read the other builds. But my build, I believe, is already one of the most-straightforward way to play a Necro.

Basically, my point is that for professions and builds that do not rely on direct damage as their combat aspect, it is -probably- possible to reach the same effectiveness as those that do, but it requires much, much more effort, refinement and difficulty.

To me, this is not balance. Balance means that if certain professions require more difficulty and not-so-straightforward game play, that means that they must be able to outperform those professions that are easier to handle.

projectcedric.6951:

Vayne.8563:

Fair enough point. I think it depends on your play style. I have some characters that use CC to an advantage, some that don’t need at at all.

If you don’t have the kill things fast play style, and not everyone does, it can come in quite handy, perhaps more often than one would think. Then again, it really does depend on knowing the skills of what you’re fighting.

Sometimes I end up using CC just to get guys away from me for the extra two seconds my self-heal needs to recharge.

I tried that other extreme end of things with my necro. Just pure condition damage and CC build, I don’t even rely on shroud. It can kill but it is frustrating. The amount of time that CC buys you to heal yourself plus the amount of heal combined, relative to your squishiness is just pathetic.

Yes, I know there is be a better way to play that profession that optimizes it, I’ve read the other builds. But my build, I believe, is already one of the most-straightforward way to play a Necro.

Basically, my point is that for professions and builds that do not rely on direct damage as their combat aspect, it is -probably- possible to reach the same effectiveness as those that do, but it requires much, much more effort, refinement and difficulty.

To me, this is not balance. Balance means that if certain professions require more difficulty and not-so-straightforward game play, that means that they must be able to outperform those professions that are easier to handle.

Yep, I agree with this. I used a lot of CC while leveling with my engie, because I don’t like the grenade kit and I grow bored with the bomb kit. So I used the rifle a lot, which has a lot of CC. And yeah, it took me longer to kill things, but I was having fun, so I didn’t care.

Combinations of netting, knockback and jumpshot to close or get away were particularly satisfying, particularly in Orr back in the days when there was mob density. I found it a fun play style in and of itself….and challenging.

What to players think about the upcoming update that could separate PVE numbers vs wvw numbers(ie skills/hp etc), and weapons?

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guildcast-guild-wars-show/guild-wars-2-patch-gc-68/

Geotherma.2395:

What to players think about the upcoming update that could separate PVE numbers vs wvw numbers(ie skills/hp etc), and weapons?

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guildcast-guild-wars-show/guild-wars-2-patch-gc-68/

Interesting. This is a welcome change, even if it is limited to “number changes.” This would allow much more freedom to balance PvP.