Guild Wars 2

Tenma.2107:

Do I really have to explain the results player collision would have on the whole dodge mechanic? So much of the combat in this game hinges on dodges and player collision would be a disaster. Even if dodging temporarily negated player collision you would get bounced all over the place when the dodge finished. Sounds horrible.

Well, it would work just like when you dodge against a wall, nothing more.

Essentially negating your dodge and ruining the whole mechanic.

why negating ? It doesnt negate my dodge when i dodge agaisnt a wall, i do taht with coe alpha subject all the time

In that case it sounds like you are only using the invincibility frames from the dodge and not the positional value of dodging. You don’t only dodge for the momentary invincibility throughout the game. Also static elements like walls within the game scenery are of course predictable…..other players and their positions and movements…not so much. Accidentally having your dodge ruined by bumping into a strafing player for example sounds to make for a bad experience.

And then there is the whole can of worms dealing with any and all movement/positional skills. What would happen to your various blinks and shadowsteps? Are your leap attacks going to flub now by bouncing into other players as they randomly ‘get in the way’ when you’re doing your thing? Really it sounds like it would make for a total mess to me and certainly ruin the whole jump in and randomly play with strangers aspect of the game.

Look, I understand where some of you advocating player collision are coming from but I don’t see it as even being possible at this point. Something like that must be established at conception in development and the scenarios and gameplays built around it – you can’t really shoehorn something like that into a game afterwards. That’s assuming your engine can even support it.

My 2 cents.

How about this, a new Instantly Downed Effect, or Fately Wounded Effect.

Works like this. The higher the concentration of players are in one area then the higher the chances of players taking fatel or collateral damage. This collateral damage could instantly down or kill a random person in the stack. Some weapons would have a higher chance to do this than others. Possibly make this effect apply to concentrations of 10 or more players. Apply this with the right ratio and zergs will be forced to split their numbers or face lots of casaulties.
Perhaps add in some minor protection from this through new utils or new WvW commander shouts.

This would need to be implemented with tactics in mind. Stacking should be useful in certain situations but it should come with some drawbacks and fear. This concept could do wonders I think.

With strict regard to PvE, I wish to let everyone in on a little secret!

In GW1, collision detection was also utilized to group enemies. How? Easy! Post Player A a step or two away from a wall (creating a wedge to prevent foes from running around them) while Player B pulls aggro through (or in-between) the wall and Player A. The mobs get stuck, shift their attention to Player A who is blocking them, while staying packed in a tidy ball ready for spiking.

I wonder why this wasn’t ported over, come to think of it…

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The Romans invented stacking. Their zergball of 300 beat an army of thousands.

I think you mean the Spartans.

In Gw1 there was body-blocking between members of two opposing faction. Players didnt block each other in the same party, only mobs or in pvp enemy players. It had a tactical aspect.

Now im not sure about how stacking should be handled in PvE. I suppose its fine. Too many issues could rise if every player and their minis were to be able to block each others movememnt and dodge. Devs can make specific partsof the game harder (where stacking ruined all difficulty and challange) by making mob skills and balancing specificly to counter stacking.

In PvP, even in WvW it could provide a new level of challenge to have body blocking between members of opposing teams. Sorry but if someone dodgerolls right into enemy lines, he should hit a wall of pain. If he dodges behind his own allies though, they should be able to protect him by body-blocking the melee chasing him.

TLDR: Body block between enemy factions. Players against mobs, players against enemy players. No friendly body blocking.

Alot of games actually have collision detection. Games with huge zerg pvp aswell. What if dodges (iframes) would make it possible to dodge through ppl/mobs likes in other games? In other games they don’t have collision detection in town, so thats an OBVIOUS solution to body-blocking-omg-waiting-in-a-line-infront-of-the-banker-bs. Just that every race could have its own hitbox size. Since Asuras are in fact smaller than Charrs. Increase the range of buffs and the size of some bosses and collision detection could be a viable feature. And I dont see why people would immediatly think that it means ranging everything. Stacking in a corner so bosses dont use certain skills haha ya thats exactly how Anet intented it, riiiight

luzt.7692:

Alot of games actually have collision detection. Games with huge zerg pvp aswell. What if dodges (iframes) would make it possible to dodge through ppl/mobs likes in other games? In other games they don’t have collision detection in town, so thats an OBVIOUS solution to body-blocking-omg-waiting-in-a-line-infront-of-the-banker-bs. Just that every race could have its own hitbox size. Since Asuras are in fact smaller than Charrs. Increase the range of buffs and the size of some bosses and collision detection could be a viable feature. And I dont see why people would immediatly think that it means ranging everything. Stacking in a corner so bosses dont use certain skills haha ya thats exactly how Anet intented it, riiiight

It must’ve been intended if ANet gave melee only skills and range only skills. The part you messed up is assuming the skills aren’t being used because your team is in a corner, or in a stack, rather than because they are in melee range. It just so happens that the consequence of LoSing an enemy around a short corner means they run right up to your face.

But please be ignorant some more; nice to see the people complaining don’t understand what they’re complaining about. It punches holes in your own argument so other people don’t have to.

Guys now that we have discussed about collision between players, can we discuss about collision between mobs only?

If the added some form of character collision what would happen in instances like Dragons or Temples where you can have 20-30 melees attack the Boss? How could they get close enough to get a hit in?

So half of ppl here are saying that it’s ok if 60 ppl stacks on one spot resulting in any opposing force able to hit only 5 of them at once, right?
Some ppl should really think about their logic.

however I agree that collision detection is kinda difficult to achieve in a game like this (especially because it’s already released), but removing AOE cap is also a way to go, at least for WvW purposes.

Make it so collision detection doesn’t affect dodge rolls, leaps/abilities that give movement, blinks, swiftness,or other evasive mechanics, even in combat.

Still, I can’t support the idea… just based on how much more stress it’d put on servers.

You could also consider making collision detection not stop people from stacking or restricting movement, but prevent them from using most of their abilities while they are colliding.

The whole game has got it backwards. Stacking to mitigate damage, people setting off bombs at their feet and not getting collateral damage, using explosive blasts in fields of fire to grant yourself and your friends super strength. It was never right, you just have to go with it and enjoy the ride.

Ill support player collision all day so long as they give me personally a special skill that can knock players out of my way… since that won’t happen I gotta say I’m not a fan.. especially remembering all the droks runs getting bodyblocked by trolls.

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

I have played games with model collision. It’s a griefiers paradise.
Stand in a narrow hallway or door and do not allow others to pass by, then charge them to pass or laugh at them.

I saw two Ogres block the tunnel to Blackburrow in EQ for hours.

Body blocking was one of the most fun features in GW1’s combat system, after they worked out all the kinks like pets having collision.

I remember we had a necro in the guild before the limi on minions that would literally lock himself in corners with about 15-20 bone minions all the time, or clutter it up for everyone else.

If it’s technically feasible to do in GW2, I think it has merit, and would go a long way toward fixing WvW and PvE zergs. We have a perfect system to avoid player bodyblock griefing already. Jumping. Just turn off friendly collision when you jump. You can’t bunny hop to keep a stack going as you’ll just get all warped around as people/you land, but you could use it to easily get past some dudes trying to troll a door.

Enemies bodyblocking you is a valid tactic on the other hand and shouldn’t be skippable without proper skills.

Bodyblocking would also greatly emphasize the utility of launch and fear effects.

This is how I go to the Black Lion Trader… I run up and talk to the guy and do my business.

After your idea…

Excuse me.
Pardon me.
Sorry, I just need to get through.
Whoops, sorry I stepped on your foot.
Who’s touching me?
Excuse me.
Let me just squeeze through here.
What is that smell?
Pardon.
Could you move just a little?

Then finally get to the trader and have to log off because I spent all my time trying to get to a vendor.

Plus, imagine the griefing.

It was probably one of the best features of WAR in PvP, and I’ve always missed it in every mmo I played since. Couldn’t really care less about NPC or collision in PvE though, that just creates problems.

Young Somalia.1706:

With strict regard to PvE, I wish to let everyone in on a little secret!

In GW1, collision detection was also utilized to group enemies. How? Easy! Post Player A a step or two away from a wall (creating a wedge to prevent foes from running around them) while Player B pulls aggro through (or in-between) the wall and Player A. The mobs get stuck, shift their attention to Player A who is blocking them, while staying packed in a tidy ball ready for spiking.

I wonder why this wasn’t ported over, come to think of it…

Go to the Frozen Maw event when there are 30-40 players in melee on the Svanir Shaman champion. Then, imagine how many would be in melee with collision detection.

If someone’s body blocking… just dodge roll past them. It’s evasive… idk why people are jumping to the conclusion that it wouldn’t be.

Also, just as the first game, body blocking would naturally be disabled in towns for obvious usability reasons.

Stacking isn’t what trivializes the content but the content itself by being poorly designed.

The game needs more than removal of stacking in order to be more challenging. It needs roles other than the DPS. It needs to rework its condition cap. Remove defiance and let CC (again more roles) push and pull the bosses. It needs less artificial challenge (more damage! more HP!) and better thought out mechanics (molten facility, TA’s new path).

Groups don’t stack naturally, unfortunately GW2 just breeds it by nature. Buffs are a certain range so people stack to make sure everyone gets it. Rallying in certain bosses (i.e. AC) is more dangerous than letting them die in the next aoe hit, breeding the idea that you can NEVER make a mistake. That sort of punishment doesn’t make a game challenging.

Paponzi.1637:

Darthaemos.6370:

Paponzi.1637:

rozcinana.7249:

wait… what’s wrong with stacking?

It trivializes combat, for example

Have you considered not stacking then?

Rather than remove the option to stack, how about you exercise your option to not stack?

Feel free to run around in circles around mobs and spam whatever range weapon you prefer. Just make sure to do it either when solo, or in groups specifically advertised for it:

“LFM AC Path 1. NO STACKING! Have at least 1 hour!”

Let me guess: LF3M ONLY WAR ZERK NO NOOBS is a good thing for the game.

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

I have played games with model collision. It’s a griefiers paradise.
Stand in a narrow hallway or door and do not allow others to pass by, then charge them to pass or laugh at them.

True, but what if collision only worked in combat?

Stacking is not an issue. Stop trying to make it into one.
This game’s boon system and combo fields were specifically designed for a " stack friendly " environment.

Players can choose to play any way they want- and wanting to do things fast and efficient is not something that should be frowned upon or discouraged. Each player is free to play how he wants and with people that want to play like him.

“LFM ZERKER WARS SPEED CLEAR " is not good or bad for the game. It’s a player’s choice and he can choose to play whichever way he wants. If others choose to join him it is THEIR choice.

There’s a lot of talk here about content being trivialized because of stacking. That is not the case. Stacking does not trivialize the content – the players that play the content trivialize it.
Why ? Because not everybody enjoys spending 1 hour per dungeon path. Because not everybody enjoys doing the same boss fight over and over and over again – and doing it for the fun of it.
The cold hard truth is that players play dungeons for rewards. Before the end-dungeon guaranteed gold patch the only thing players really did was COF P1 – because of the farm there.
Nobody does dungeons for the experience – the game has been out a year – we’ve all most likely done each dungeon at least a dozen times to know what it’s like and how it plays out.

What’s left ? Farming.
Dungeons already have a hard time competing with the zerg champ train farm – take stacking away and you’ll be left with a very small minority actually doing the dungeons.

Consider why some dungeon paths are almost ALWAYS done and some are NEVER done. Because some of them can be beaten easily and " trivialized " for fast rewards while others can not. So the player base does the easy ones and never does the others.

Stacking is not and never was the problem.
If you don’t believe me ask how many players still do the new TA path – that was recently implemented and not very poorly designed. That’s right – nobody does it.

The main issue here is that end-game items in this game cost a lot. Even if you don’t want legendary a full set of ascended armor will cost you at least a few hundred gold ( at the moment ) minus the 100+ it takes you to craft to 500.

Ascended weapons ( provided you use 2-3) will cost you ( with crafting to 500) another 200 gold minimum.
Meanwhile AC P1 + P3 ; SE P1; P3 and CoF P1 – give you a grand total of 6 gold / day.
So yes – people will stack. They will stack the hell out of these dungeons because they need to.

And i’m not even going to mention legendary weapons.

Limits in AoE take care of that.

No matter how many enemies bunch up together, a skill will only hit 1, 3, 5 or 10 of them depending on the particular limit of the skill.

What makes things too easy in dungeons is faults in the enemy AI, and gimmicks in the game mechanics that people find. Like being able to hit enemies at the other side of a wall with an AoE.

Tenma.2107:

Do I really have to explain the results player collision would have on the whole dodge mechanic? So much of the combat in this game hinges on dodges and player collision would be a disaster. Even if dodging temporarily negated player collision you would get bounced all over the place when the dodge finished. Sounds horrible.

You mean punishing clumsy players who don’t notice their position and surroundings? Sounds so real and like…a legit action game, oh no.

Dodge has evade invuln frames anyway. If anyone actually plays action games they don’t have this huge of an invulnerability allowance, they use it to get away from the attack, either side stepping, back stepping, etc..which what dodging is.

Most games have like a 1/15 – 3/15 (1/5) of a second moment of invuln.

Just add friendly fire to dungeons and people won’t be able to stack. I’d be all for that. lol

Vayne.8563:

Just add friendly fire to dungeons and people won’t be able to stack. I’d be all for that. lol

Honestly that would be a major component for my dream MMORPG- especially if it were only natural occurring physical damage such as fire, and other aoe damage that makes enemy encounters easy in most MMORPGs that I’ve played. Magic or holy damage (even unholy damage) might not affect your friends, but if you set an area on fire then EVERONE better not stand in the flames if they want to survive…(same with an avalanche or a stampeding herd of cattle or… or… or…)

In original D&D if you fired an arrow at an enemy while a friend was in melee combat with it, there was a chance you might kill your friend accidenly- friendly fire!

Player collision detection is very resource heavy. You’d increase lag to levels beyond imagination.

My only issue with stacking is that it makes combat so much more simple. Tough mob fight? Stack in a corner and spam. There’s no effort.

I get people want fast dungeon runs, and to make a lotta money, but wouldn’t it be best to reward that gamestyle to people who can do more than fight in a corner? Stacking is just too easy for someone who claims to be a ‘skilled dungeon runner’ because let’s face it, it’s not hard at all.

We don’t need collision detection – we just need boss fights that make meta stacking not-always effective, and encourage players to actually move. Stacking is a pretty good strategy for certain fights, but when it becomes overly effective for too many dungeons, it’s just cheating.

Banjal.7328:

Causic.3798:

Collision detection is a terrible idea.
Having the ability to block someone from going somewhere will be a nightmare.
If we have problems with griefers (from other servers) suiciding golems in WvW, imagine what they can do with collision detection. Five will stand by an entrance and no one can go in.
Just a bad idea, i’m glad it wasn’t in this game to begin with.

It would be like DAoC and WAR and it would be so good.

Collision detection was very unpopular in W:AR because of the stalemates it caused when people blocked stairs. Personally I liked it, but I suspect ANet deliberately made it easier to get into towers and keeps.

Taisia.2813:

They have collision detection since day 1 in DCUO and it works without a hitch. Bodies can’t and should not be able to stack anyway

Except when 1 flying toon could block a door way for everyone else in the police stations and nightclubs resulting in endless griefing when multiple people would block all the doors ways….but other than that without a hitch….

Stacking is a perfectly legitimate tactic; however they should do something to make it more involving (like needing to move and re-stack every once in a while) and carefully watch for areas where it’s used as pretty much a straight up bug exploit (I’m looking at you AC: the spider queen stack completely negates the poison from hitting players and in this case I consider it an exploit).

When stacking is used as a tactic it’s sort of the MMO equivalent to a phalanx formation in real life. It’s a perfectly legitimate tactic.

Also, while collision isn’t needed in this game (it works perfectly fine without it); if it did have collision dodging would work essentially the same (you still get your invincibility frames a.k.a. i-frames). There are plenty of examples that shows it works fine (Zelda games, Vindictus, Tera, most fighting games, etc.).

Another thing is, it doesn’t take an hour to AC when not stacking; people just seem to have forgotten how to dodge.

Nothing wrong with stacking it’s a type of combat, just like if I was fighting with my thief I’ll use an object to make long range weapons have no effect. Nothing wrong there just thinking of different fighting styles

Stacking is obviously an exploit. So is using meele all the time. So is “skipping”.

i soo want body block! a lot of new tactic in wvw and good bye 70 men blobs!
the system is already in the game. its name is melee assist and you can turn in. i realy want gw1 body block back in wvw

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The Romans invented stacking. Their zergball of 300 beat an army of thousands.

Um, that was the Spartans, and they weren’t Roman. They were Greek.

take for example the spider queen in AC : after some many patches, they still didnt fix the fact that when you stack on that corner, the spider does not use AOE skills. Why no fix ? Why ?

haha. i just finished to read the thread. whos afraid about body block never played gw1. you cant block anybody in citys because no blocking in citys. and in combat friends can be very close to each other only enemys cant come in touch. and why do you fear if somebody must to be ranged? and image wvw. awww end of the heavy melee train.

The problem isn’t that people are stacking. The problem is that the battles in gw2 are so simplistic, that stacking becomes the optimal way to beat anything.

Look at many boss fights that actually have mechanics. See if stacking helps in those situations.

I’m glad to see anet is making efforts to make some boss fights more complex by adding mechanics.

Imagine my surprise when I saw the new and improved Ghost Eater in AC path 2, now that’s some interesting mechanics!

thefantasticg.3984:

Master of Timespace.2548:

But the issue here is that stacking is overpowered. It’s the exact same thing as with all overpowered things: they trivialise content. This is in no way differend from mini golem bombs or other overpowered things that have existed in the game.

Going to have to tell my Wife I’m going to be late for dinner because someone is wrong on the internet…

The only overpowered “thing” that trivializes ALL content in ANY game you play is humans. Intelligence, hand-eye coordination, and the ability to recognize patterns in the AI trivializes content far-and-away more than stacking does. Minimize or do away with completely the human player’s intelligence, hand-eye coordination, and ability to recognize patterns in AI attacks and you will successfully created a hard game. All of your arguements to get rid of things that trivialize content are moot until you nullify the ability of the player to recognize things that can be used as an advantage in a game. Period. (Incase you didn’t catch what I meant one way to non-trivialize all content in this game is play drunk… everyone play drunk. Have a blower on the computer you have to blow into to register blood-alcohol levels that have to be over the legal limit for the program to start and continue to run.)

Or, just make it like that Playstation game Dark Souls.

I’m not sure if I still agree.

The only overpowered “thing” that trivializes ALL content in ANY game you play is humans.

So if there was a button in chess that would automatically win the game for you, it would be the human (or monkey) who’d trivialize the game by pressing that button, and not the button itself? But surely it’s really the button that is overpowered, and thus hides the otherwise challenging mechanics of the game?

Master of Timespace.2548:

But the issue here is that stacking is overpowered. It’s the exact same thing as with all overpowered things: they trivialise content. This is in no way differend from mini golem bombs or other overpowered things that have existed in the game.

Your point is that stacking is OP. Essentially what that means is that you believe buffs are OP and/or that melee damage is OP (since there are few examples of stacking at range). Assume for a minute that buffs worked on the group as long as you were in, say, the same room, or within earshot. Would you consider the buffs OP then? Or is it the combination of group buffs with the increased damage from melee that you consider OP?

Ignoring specific instances where stacking in certain places negates boss mechanics, people stack because the game provides buffs that only work within a very short distance. The use of such buffs and combo fields constitutes the “coordinated, skill play” that the original design intent for dungeons called for. What else except buffs/fields can be coordinated?

Perhaps it isn’t that stacking and buffs are OP. Perhaps it’s that the dungeons were designed so that groups of random professions, with random builds and using random tactics can complete the dungeon. It isn’t likely to be quick, but most paths can be completed by anyone — whether they use the mechanics designed into the game to make characters more effective, or not.

So, the only reason that the only mechanics that actually constitute teamwork in GW2 are OP is that the content doesn’t — for the most part — require the use of teamwork. As a consequence, if players do use teamwork, they have an easier time of it.

TexZero.7910:

Fixing “stacking” as you claim it to be is alot simpler than body blocking.

Make control builds worth it and problem solved. Get rid of defiant and unshakeable they are poorly designed and thought out and do nothing but turn dungeon runs into an artificial DPS race.

100 times yes. There should be a soft trinity with dps\cc\support

I believe the original intent was to have cc/dps/support be the “roles” but obviously theorycrafting and implementation are two different things