Guild Wars 2

Ok, so most of us playing the game know that if you want significant DPS you use equips with berserker stats. On top of that people can trait build to get some ridiculous damage as opposed to say somebody who uses carrion or knight equips. That isn’t to say you can’t do any acceptable damage with any other build, berserker just happens to be the most effective due to many bosses and dungeon enemies having really large HP pools that can take forever to kill without some high stable DPS. The longer you take to kill a powerful enemy/dangerous player, the more at risk you are of dying yourself.

My proposal to the community is to somewhat nerf berserker and rearrange various other nomenclature to aid in spreading power across the board. Using the table of stats provided here, I would like to discuss these suggestions:

• Changing berserker to [power, precision, condition damage]
• Removing the assassin’s name and adding a new [precision, power, vitality]
• Adding a new [precision, power, healing power]
• Adding more vitality primary options with precision and ferocity among 2 new ones
• Adding a new condition damage primary with ferocity included
• Adding more condition duration and boon duration nomenclature

The main objective with these changes would be to avoid pairing precision with ferocity as both together give much larger burst damage potential than any other purely power based grouping. The final part to the proposal would be to add in a new ferocity based boon. It could be added as a part of might at +15 per stack at level 80 to gain a +25% increase to critical damage at 25 stacks, or it could be a stand alone boon similar to fury.

Of course these changes would be extremely drastic on the way the people build their character’s skills, equipment and traits so it would definitely upset a fairly large number of people, however I believe it would be the first step in making any other build competent in dealing significant damage within a party either with burst or stable DPS. To aid in mitigating outrage at having to reacquire new statted equipment as a result of berserker having different properties, stat reassignment coupons could be distributed to every character to allow players to keep their equipment but have the stats they now desire.

This post is merely a hypothetical change to the game that could much further be refined at the discretion of ANet of course. Anyways, what are your thoughts on these suggestions guys?

This might solve the current meta issue, but the nature of “meta” would be that people would simply start going for the new “best stat combo”.

There is always going to be a best combination. Unless Anet manages to achieve perfect balance between stat sets, at which point it kinda negates the need for different combinations I would think.

Neural.1824:

This might solve the current meta issue, but the nature of “meta” would be that people would simply start going for the new “best stat combo”.

There is always going to be a best combination. Unless Anet manages to achieve perfect balance between stat sets, at which point it kinda negates the need for different combinations I would think.

True people will tend to gravitate towards certain builds, but I feel this could possibly help to make a more ambiguous “best stat combo”.

Changing the stat combination for zerker won’t spread power across the board. The people playing zerker want the fastest kills at the expense of [insert thing to give up here]. Any stat armor that accomplishes this most efficiently will be the most popular.

Before this becomes 10 pages, I’d like to note that trying to force people skilled enough at the game to not require passive defense to move slower will not be good for anyone. Youll just kitten off the people you’re making slower and force them to make a new meta that is as close to the original as possible.

The game was intended to be played actively. Zerker is prime gear for that. Leave it alone.

There’s already ambiguity in “best stat combo.” Play in WvW, PvP or do different open world content (Triple Wurm, e.g. can’t be critted). If there’s anything ANet needs to do, is return to Guild Wars 1 where they politely ask you to take a break from the game, and get more passive-aggressive each time. Large multiplayer communities would see great improvement if people weren’t constantly obsessed with the state of the game and had a well-rounded outlook of comparison.

Im not sure if to laugh or not actually, none of these will resolve anything :P

The thing that needs to be resolved is Necro, it got ok dmg but except power signet not a single utility that makes of use for the party at the rate that its even kicked out of pug dungeon groups. And the power signet dont really bring anything to the party even, I would like to see a buff in some way like the ranger got, ranger used to be most hated class but is now accepted by pug runs thanks to a few useful buffs even though the pet is still annoying in many scenarios!

In a game like this there will always be a meta regardless of how you change stat combos and none of the above ones will yield anything different + the one you suggested on berserker is sinister gear so it exists already and is quite great for solo dungeons.

Which is the thing, over time condition dmg builds yields higher dmg, but in full team fights the short burst physical dmg is of a lot more use. Achieving a full balance with this has the problem is that currently you cant stack conditions with a party since all your members overwrites your own bleeding stacks which reduces the dmg, so for conditions to be viable for more then solo dungeons they would need to make sure that you cant overwrite a party members condition stacks+that it requires quite a lot more effort to stack conditions in the first place.

Stacking might is simply much better and you can gain so much more out of it in a 5man party then current conditions ever will, if they would go and do the above suggested changes I would most likely just go Knights gear (Power, Precision, toughness) since that would most likely be the highest physical dmg with the way the current game works.

I know this got to be a long post but its at least something :P

<1 hour after the change when new highest damage gear is found>
AC full run 5k ap <new best stat combo> or kick.

Nerf Berserker by making new content so challenging bad players can’t do it in berserker. anything other changes would be bad.

Remove all stat combos except Celestial. There, everyone is running balanced stats.

Is that a ludicrous suggestion? If so, look at what the OP is proposing. He wants to turn a glass set (Berserker) into a hybrid set (a power-first Rampager). His other changes consist of adding a defensive stat to glass armor (assassins), adding new mixed offense-defense combos and pairing ferocity with condi damage. All hybrid. Hybrid builds is exactly what Celestial does. Making everyone Celestial is just slightly more extreme.

If you really want to spread damage power across the board, the way to do it would be to change the damage equation to more heavily favor the Weapon Strength stat. Everyone, regardless of stat combo on gear, has weapons that have the same numbers (barring 2-handed v one-handed). This is also not a good idea. Why?

1. Because it reduces the value of choice
2. Because defensive stats are not far out of balance in comparison to offensive stats.
3. Changing the damage calculation towards a smaller curve removes some of the costs from the cost/benefit of using defensive stats.

If the OP and others believe that the reward for glass gear is too great for the risk, they should get out the ole spreadsheet and prove it with numbers that everyone can see and evaluate for themselves, not this “everyone knows” stuff.

How to fix the Berserker “meta”: add encounters that challenge the entire group, encounters that can’t be soloed and also challenge the reflexes and the ability of the entire group. Increasing the difficulty isn’t enough, good players will still be able to solo or duo it and carry the team through so we will gain nothing. Only if the encounters requires the entire group to work as a team can the Berserker meta be changed.

Stat changes aren’t needed

Damage will always be king, conditions just need to be optimal in a significant part of PvE condition mobs need to be a thing as well. Stop creating those threads again damage is king, we have two types of damage power and conditions. Healing power could have made if siphon were a reliable source of damage but it’s not the case.

this new content in HoT won’t be so easliy dps’ed into the ground , imagine silverwastes type creatures but Everywhere on different levels , im sure the meta for PvE will slowly change by the players choice if the enviroment Determins the need for a change.

though should of never have made a gear set with Power, precision and critical damage , all 3 only contribute to damage , if they split the dps stats over 2 or 3 gear sets you’ll have to balance and or make the choice of how much damage you want to cause rather than just going “oh i’ll just use Beserker”

make Beserker stats into , Power(second), (furosity MAIN<) , Precision (lowest last) , yes your Critical damage will be higher but your crit rate will be lower Making a Noticeable difference between Cav, assasins and Beserker.

Wow, if only someone else had of thought of something like this….oh wait…..

they did

multiple threads ftw.

downvote x 1000

you really want to make my full ascended wvw set useless? really… i mean… really?

as people already stated, once a new statcombo is found LFG will look like:

AC Full Run 5k AP <insert new best stat combo> or kick!!

Zerker(or sassies) should not be nerfed it is designed that way intentionally which is high direct damage. What needs to happen is that all the other stat comboes just need to bring something to the table that is equally appreciated in the grandeur.

This is slowly being addressed already along with conditions come HoT. All of these threads are a moot point until expansion hits and people get a chance to play around with their new toys and sandboxes.

The “berserker meta” isn’t the the problem. It’s how the enemies work in the game coupled with the fact that bosses are going to get kill you in 1 hit most of the time now matter what kind of gear you’re using.

Make enemies attack faster but for less damage. This way damage mitigation is more effective and punishes people using berserker armor more than someone using Knights.

Bosses need to have less hp but have more varied mechanics to them instead of them relying on large hp pools and big hits. Which is just an artificial difficulty anyways and can be abused quite easily (see stacking in 1 spot and stacking might to burst them down instantly).

That coupled with the defiant mechanic means that you can’t use cc reliably or at all, removing an entire game mechanic and play style from boss fights and makes them dumbed down at the same time. Defiant works the exact opposite of how it should and really is the bane of pve. This mechanic has to go before we ever talk about directly touching the stats on berserker gear (again).

And last but not least people will just gravitate to what is considered the next best. It would be pointless to change stat sets without adjusting any of the above first.

Akusokuzan.6790:

Ok, so most of us playing the game know that if you want significant DPS you use equips with berserker stats. On top of that people can trait build to get some ridiculous damage as opposed to say somebody who uses carrion or knight equips.

Disclaimer: I read your entire post and will get to it, but I see this comment so much on “anti-zerk” posts and it just blows my mind.

The only thing you mention here is DPS. You take a 3 offensive stat (zerker), and compare it to a 2 offensive, 1 defensive stat (knights), and this is where I get completely lost. What is the point in the comparison, if all you are talking about is DPS? Zerker by design should be better at DPS than knights. It literally makes no sense to have a full offensive set be matched by a slightly defensive set. I just will never understand why people keep claiming defensive sets need to be as effective as zerker sets. Why would anyone take zerker then? And yes I know that your focus for the rest of your post is not on this, but it’s just extremely frustrating. Until people accept that it’s fair to have defensive sets subpar to offensive sets, in terms of DPS, this “zerker issue” is going to go no where. I mention this because it leads into your next point, to just randomly add defensive stats so that all the mixed defensive stats seem better. I don’t want defensive stats on my gear. I don’t need it. Please don’t bring my effectiveness down because someone’s not willing to bring their effectiveness up.

And as others have pointed out, your suggested change will only lead to a shifted meta, not a “bring whatever you want” meta. It might bring things a lot closer, but guilds like DnT actually get into the math of how effective a build is, and even if it’s a small % better, they role with that. I highly doubt anet can make several armor sets that are completely equal. Even assassins and zerkers has some noticeable difference. And then that info trickles down into the people who want to play meta, without really understanding why it’s meta. And you are where we are now: a large portion of the community saying “this is optimal” regardless of how much better it really is.

NikeEU.7690:

Nerf Berserker by making new content so challenging bad players can’t do it in berserker. anything other changes would be bad.

Yeah … this. META will always exist, so the proposal to adjust stats just changes the flavour for little reason.

If anet changes beserker stats then Il have to change almost more than of my char’s builds, but luckily they would never change something like the beserker stats.

My problem with berserker meta is that it is a much safer stat to run than the tankiest of the tank gears in dungeons. There should be risk involved for running glass cannon builds but that just isn’t there. Encounters in today’s dungeon meta is over within 10seconds where the boss literally does nothing because it dies too fast. If you can spec enough DPS that you can effectively 100-0 a boss, what is the point of bringing defensive stats?

I guess I got flooded with reports for pointing out the following:
remove berserker = new stat becomes meta = new QQ thread about stat X.

but Whatever.
Lets have another thread discussing the use of berserkers gear.

For the purposes of making this post “constructive” enough:

changing meta for the sake of it = stupid idea.

To use something i mentioned in another thread on the EXACT SAME TOPIC:
greater skill = less reliance on defensive stats.
lesser skill= greater need on defensive stats.

But its not like people have QQ’d in the past:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Ascalonian-Catacombs-is-too-hard-now-I-think/first

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/67240-dungeons-are-too-hard-i-know-i-know-thousandth-thread-on-this/

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/To-hard-for-average-players

oh wait. People even got sick of hearing this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeons-are-too-hard-blah-blah-blah/first#post1680497

Zerker requires a lot of practice, skill,reflexes, knowledge to use.
No need to remove, it is working as it should.

Now moderators, can we put these threads to bed please?
This is already the deadest of horses.

EDIT: thought you may be interested to see previous threads on this topic

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Found-dead-the-Zerker-meta/first#post4834312

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Idea-to-solve-Zerker-meta/first#post4641585

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Zerker-meta-Possible-solutions

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/The-zerker-meta-and-how-to-change-it

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dodge-mechanic-makes-Zerker-builds-viable/first

• aha! I found the behemoth!*

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/This-Meta-has-to-end/first

So you’re telling me you want to remove a useful stat and replace it with a less useful one?

I don’t think your suggestion is the right way to do it.

If I were to handle this issue I’d just change the curve of both precision and ferocity so that going full zerk/assassin has a less drastic impact.

For instance 40% chance and +100% damage without zerk and 50% chance +125% damage with.

This way the zerk/assassin gear still gives optimum damage but others spec become more interesting because they don’t need to sacrifice so much to get their stats.

im actually so fed up of these threads

look at literally any game ever. there is always a meta, either static or fluid, you can’t escape it.

GET

OVER

IT

Lyndis.4653:

I don’t think your suggestion is the right way to do it.

If I were to handle this issue I’d just change the curve of both precision and ferocity so that going full zerk/assassin has a less drastic impact.

For instance 40% chance and +100% damage without zerk and 50% chance +125% damage with.

This way the zerk/assassin gear still gives optimum damage but others spec become more interesting because they don’t need to sacrifice so much to get their stats.

Really? This discussion again?
Ok.

They already tried this but it didn’t work. Meta won’t change. It will just make people more picky, more kick happy. More QQ elitist scum kicked me. So, still think this is a good idea to punish good players?

Game is not the exclusive domain of casual bad players.
Ktnxbai.

Sorin.4310:

Akusokuzan.6790:

Ok, so most of us playing the game know that if you want significant DPS you use equips with berserker stats. On top of that people can trait build to get some ridiculous damage as opposed to say somebody who uses carrion or knight equips.

Disclaimer: I read your entire post and will get to it, but I see this comment so much on “anti-zerk” posts and it just blows my mind.

The only thing you mention here is DPS. You take a 3 offensive stat (zerker), and compare it to a 2 offensive, 1 defensive stat (knights), and this is where I get completely lost. What is the point in the comparison, if all you are talking about is DPS? Zerker by design should be better at DPS than knights. It literally makes no sense to have a full offensive set be matched by a slightly defensive set. I just will never understand why people keep claiming defensive sets need to be as effective as zerker sets. Why would anyone take zerker then? And yes I know that your focus for the rest of your post is not on this, but it’s just extremely frustrating. Until people accept that it’s fair to have defensive sets subpar to offensive sets, in terms of DPS, this “zerker issue” is going to go no where. I mention this because it leads into your next point, to just randomly add defensive stats so that all the mixed defensive stats seem better. I don’t want defensive stats on my gear. I don’t need it. Please don’t bring my effectiveness down because someone’s not willing to bring their effectiveness up.

And as others have pointed out, your suggested change will only lead to a shifted meta, not a “bring whatever you want” meta. It might bring things a lot closer, but guilds like DnT actually get into the math of how effective a build is, and even if it’s a small % better, they role with that. I highly doubt anet can make several armor sets that are completely equal. Even assassins and zerkers has some noticeable difference. And then that info trickles down into the people who want to play meta, without really understanding why it’s meta. And you are where we are now: a large portion of the community saying “this is optimal” regardless of how much better it really is.

Thank you, I was thinking the same thing. By having enemies that attack faster, but softer, it will incentivize other forms of damage mitigation. Unfortunately, that then also brings into consideration the usefulness of healing power…

And that is a whole ’nother topic all together.

maha.7902:

im actually so fed up of these threads

look at literally any game ever. there is always a meta, either static or fluid, you can’t escape it.

GET

OVER

IT

It’s about time the mods locked them on sight.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

maha.7902:

im actually so fed up of these threads

look at literally any game ever. there is always a meta, either static or fluid, you can’t escape it.

GET

OVER

IT

It’s about time the mods locked them on sight.

+1
+1

Artemis Thuras.8795:

maha.7902:

im actually so fed up of these threads

look at literally any game ever. there is always a meta, either static or fluid, you can’t escape it.

GET

OVER

IT

It’s about time the mods locked them on sight.

Yes. please.

Why don´t we have some sort of merged “general zerker QQ”-thread anyways? Y´know, the ones that get created every time people whine to much about literally anything else they don´t like in this game…

They won’t get locked less the subject gets derailed or the discussion runs its course, in which it will get locked at that point. If you guys are so tired of seeing them then just simply walk away, no one is forcing you guys to come into these threads and posting your thoughts in the same way that no one is forcing us to simply form our own groups to play the content to our desired paces.

Its just that simple.

To take your own advice.

Get

Over

It.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

They won’t get locked less the subject gets derailed or the discussion runs its course, in which it will get locked at that point. If you guys are so tired of seeing them then just simply walk away, no one is forcing you guys to come into these threads and posting your thoughts in the same way that no one is forcing us to simply form our own groups to play the content to our desired paces.

Its just that simple.

To take your own advice.

Get

Over

It.

Illegal, please see my post further up, linking no less than six threads on this topic. It has run its course. Many, many times over. This is fair cause for merges or locks.

What´s your favorite way of playing the game IllegalChocolate?

Maybe I should start making threads about how much it sucks/op/faceroll/bad for the game/boring/too hard/unbalanced etc. etc. it is. A new one every single day, for the next two years (or so), in which I repeat the same arguments over and over and over again, without making any meaningful observations at all. It´ll mostly be just demands for nonsensical changes and uninformed and opinionated kitten-talking in order to get what you enjoy about this game removed.

Maybe then you´ll understand why some people have had enough of all this crap =)

Skoigoth.9238:

What´s your favorite way of playing the game IllegalChocolate?

Maybe I should start making threads about how much it sucks/op/faceroll/bad for the game/boring/too hard/unbalanced etc. etc. it is. A new one every single day, for the next two years (or so), in which I repeat the same arguments over and over and over again, without making any meaningful observations at all. It´ll mostly be just demands for nonsensical changes and uninformed and opinionated kitten-talking in order to get what you enjoy about this game removed.

Maybe then you´ll understand why some people have had enough of all this crap =)

You should do one asking when the Toughness/Vitality/Healing Power nerf was going to happen, as using them allows you to not have to bother doing anything but auto-attack for most of Lupi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1rrAFs2WD4

The ONLY way zerker will be out of the meta is to redo the entire combat system. Take away active defense, and remove positioning. Make it so enemies hit all players all the time. Now zerker is bad because it dies quickly and now you need a traditional trinity. And now youve destroyed GW2 and made another WoW clone.

pdavis.8031:

The ONLY way zerker will be out of the meta is to redo the entire combat system. Take away active defense, and remove positioning. Make it so enemies hit all players all the time. Now zerker is bad because it dies quickly and now you need a traditional trinity. And now youve destroyed GW2 and made another WoW clone.

i wouldn’t make comments about this debate like that , there is a fine line a vast line between trinity and gw2 , the game has no Agro like other MMos you can’t deter a creature from not dropping agro unless you leave its range so a trinity will not work anyway since it will make a B-line for the target that hit it, hit it then Randomly go after a different target and if that target can self sustain anyway (damage or no Damage) it will not require a healer or a tank or a dps class.

somthing most people can’t get out of there heads , in this game forget EVERYTHING THAT IS TRINITY and work outside of the box.

No controled Agro , No trinity the Enviroment does not allow it.

Oh look. A new “nerf berzerker gear” thread. Haven’t seen one of those around in how many days?

And the arguments are all so new an fresh, except NOT.

How limited are people? The zerker meta exists not because of the stats, but because of the game design. Granting people the ability to play maximum damage gear and compensate with player skill, talents and class synergies will cause maximum damages to come out on top. It does not matter if the gear is called berserker, assassins, sinister or what ever.

The only thing happening with 99% of the suggestions given by players is, if at all, shift value between the maximum damage sets. While at the same time aggravating a big part of the player base by forcing them to reaquire BiS damage gear.

You want a solution to the zerker meta? Change damage skills to multiple viable damage sorces, aka make conditions viable. Or remove tripple damage sets entirely (which again will lead to more aggravating and a shift to the next best maximum damage set).

Let this dead horse rest, please…

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

pdavis.8031:

The ONLY way zerker will be out of the meta is to redo the entire combat system. Take away active defense, and remove positioning. Make it so enemies hit all players all the time. Now zerker is bad because it dies quickly and now you need a traditional trinity. And now youve destroyed GW2 and made another WoW clone.

i wouldn’t make comments about this debate like that , there is a fine line a vast line between trinity and gw2 , the game has no Agro like other MMos you can’t deter a creature from not dropping agro unless you leave its range so a trinity will not work anyway since it will make a B-line for the target that hit it and if that target can self sustain anyway (damage or no Damage) it will not require a healer or a tank or a dps class.

somthing most people can’t get out of there heads , in this game forget EVERYTHING THAT IS TRINITY and work outside of the box.

No controled Agro , No trinity the Enviroment does not allow it.

Of course a trinity wouldnt work with the current combat system. Thats not the point I was trying to make.
In order for zerker (dps) to fall out of the meta, and make passive defense (tank/healing) worthwhile, you need to change how combat works in this game. Zerker/dps is king simply because you can dodge or walk out of range of attacks. Remove dodging, and positioning, and glass dps isnt so great anymore. Changing encounters and boss mechanics won’t work, because you can still avoid all damage by pressing the V key. So why gear spec for defense when I can dodge? Make mobs immune to physical damage and recieve damage from condis only? Sinister becomes the new zerker, still no need for defense.

The only reason zerker/dps rules is because of the active combat system. Change that, then the meta changes. Otherwise nothing anyone can do or implement will change that.

Akusokuzan.6790:

Ok, so most of us playing the game know that if you want significant DPS you use equips with berserker stats. On top of that people can trait build to get some ridiculous damage as opposed to say somebody who uses carrion or knight equips. That isn’t to say you can’t do any acceptable damage with any other build, berserker just happens to be the most effective due to many bosses and dungeon enemies having really large HP pools that can take forever to kill without some high stable DPS. The longer you take to kill a powerful enemy/dangerous player, the more at risk you are of dying yourself.

…

I completely disagree with your analysis.
The offensive approach shines (on top of the main obvious reason of finishing the content faster) because of SMALL enemy HP pools.

If you look at content where HP pools are actually high, like some high level fractals encounters, things like having a guardian mixing in some Knight pieces are usually accepted. Why? Because it helps with aggro control and provides a small safety net, a safety net that becomes much more useful and reasoable when the whole group can’t stack on top of the boss and fights involve things like kiting at max melee range, something that requires MUCH more finesse and which a lot of people are incapable of (which explains why you will see a lot more ranged weapons on this content).
Even dedicated tank builds are analyzed as an option and far from mocked at.

That’s not the case with regular dungeons because, in those places, that kind of builds just don’t make any sense.
On the lowest level dungeons (and a special mention to Ascalonian Catacombs) you can easily play the “kill before get killed” card. With a damge oriented approach, most bossfights should’t last over 15-20 seconds … with a CC opening, a couple of aegis sources, a couple of baseline dodges (if needed), reflects, blinds (for trash), … enemies have no time to pose a real threat.
They also don’t deal as much damage as people like to claim. Outside of some specific and usually well telegraphed big attacks, you probably can survive (at least) a couple of hits even with the squishiest build … and (unless used for other means like pre might stacking) you still have a healing skill to replenish a good chunk of your health.
On top of all this, not every boss fully cleaves, so even if someone gets downed, they’re high chances on the boss still being defeated by the remaining players during the next few seconds.
Why are warrior groups still a thing if it has been repeated over and over how unefficient that comp is? Because their baseline passive survivability is high enough to often succeed on a “trading blows” game even if player performance and overall strategy are pure crap.

Honestly, the only serious alternative gear that could be considered for these dungeons is valkyrie, and just for the squishiest classes like ele or thief (which may also pick invigorating precision instead).
Toughness and Healing Power are sustain related stats that don’t make any sense for short fights. You can still build a group around these and enjoy the content at a lower pace, with longer fights, while being pretty much immortal.
If players are having a troubles surviving basic dungeons with a balanced/defensive build, either they should take a serious look at their builds or they’re joining the wrong groups.
Most PuGs run these dungeons with quite straightforward tactics (the kill before get killed one more often than not) and mixing completely different approaches doesn’t work well for the most part (that’s why Berserker only groups are usually labeled as that).

Honestly, there’s no such a big problem with the current itemization. I won’t say it could not have been better, but the prevalence of Berserker/Assassin for dungeons (which is just a small, and quite unatended, part of the game) is caused mostly by the content itself.

Vargamonth.2047:

I completely disagree with your analysis.
The offensive approach shines (on top of the main obvious reason of finishing the content faster) because of SMALL enemy HP pools.

If you look at content where HP pools are actually high, like some high level fractals encounters, things like having a guardian mixing in some Knight pieces are usually accepted. Why? Because it helps with aggro control and provides a small safety net, a safety net that becomes much more useful and reasoable when the whole group can’t stack on top of the boss and fights involve things like kiting at max melee range, something that requires MUCH more finesse and which a lot of people are incapable of (which explains why you will see a lot more ranged weapons on this content).
Even dedicated tank builds are analyzed as an option and far from mocked at.

I’m still doing everything in this game in full zerker.
I run dungeons, do pvp, do high level fractals, run solo in wvw, run with the zerg in wvw in full zerkers – it works and it works fine, otherwise I wouldn’t be doing it as I also have soldier’s and my beloved valk character and also some condi geared characters, zerker just suits me best.
So: If some people need clerics or knights or whatever, that’s fine with me, but don’t say that zerker doesn’t work in this or that content as it does. And no, at least 3 people I usually run with are also full zerker, so it’s not that I need to be saved by a tanky geared player.

I’d have supported attempts to make other types more useful on launch. But now that ascended gear is such a gind… I’d rather there was one optimal set that you could use between every character of each armor weight. Merge Assassin and Berserker, homogenise them more. Needing two sets of ascended light armor is insane.

Jana.6831:

Vargamonth.2047:

I completely disagree with your analysis.
The offensive approach shines (on top of the main obvious reason of finishing the content faster) because of SMALL enemy HP pools.

If you look at content where HP pools are actually high, like some high level fractals encounters, things like having a guardian mixing in some Knight pieces are usually accepted. Why? Because it helps with aggro control and provides a small safety net, a safety net that becomes much more useful and reasoable when the whole group can’t stack on top of the boss and fights involve things like kiting at max melee range, something that requires MUCH more finesse and which a lot of people are incapable of (which explains why you will see a lot more ranged weapons on this content).
Even dedicated tank builds are analyzed as an option and far from mocked at.

I’m still doing everything in this game in full zerker.
I run dungeons, do pvp, do high level fractals, run solo in wvw, run with the zerg in wvw in full zerkers – it works and it works fine, otherwise I wouldn’t be doing it as I also have soldier’s and my beloved valk character and also some condi geared characters, zerker just suits me best.
So: If some people need clerics or knights or whatever, that’s fine with me, but don’t say that zerker doesn’t work in this or that content as it does. And no, at least 3 people I usually run with are also full zerker, so it’s not that I need to be saved by a tanky geared player.

I don’t mean tanky gear, or any passive defense stat at all, is anywhere NEEDED. That wouldn’t make sense for an action based combat game.

What I’m trying to say is that there are some content pieces where tanky gear actually brings something to the table and can act like a difficulty slider, either by allowing the use of a different tactic or just by providing a safety net.
That’s just not the case of low level regular dungeons, which is the most played instanced content and probably the one most of these anti berserker threads are based on.

Going a bit off-topic, I don’t think it’s a good idea to bring things like WvW or sPvP to the discussion. It’s a completely different scenario where there’s hardly any inherently superior choice.

Vargamonth.2047:

What I’m trying to say is that there are some content pieces where tanky gear actually brings something to the table and can act like a difficulty slider, either by allowing the use of a different tactic or just by providing a safety net.
That’s just not the case of low level regular dungeons, which is the most played instanced content and probably the one most of these anti berserker threads are based on.

Going a bit off-topic, I don’t think it’s a good idea to bring things like WvW or sPvP to the discussion. It’s a completely different scenario where there’s hardly any inherently superior choice.

No, sorry but you’re mistaken. Usually the right skills used in the right moment are enough to conquer any content. And you don’t even have to know the content by heart (me as an example as I usually forget what comes next in a dungeon/fractal).1
Wvw isn’t a completely different scenario as pve and wvw are combined when it comes to how stats/gear works and that is something pve people forget – everything what you think makes this game better for you might make things worse for wvw. And there is stat/gear diversity in wvw – I don’t think I would ever recommend a zerg warrior to go full zerker although it works for some. Just saying that even in the hardest combat mode there is (zerg fights) zerker can work.

Anything to “tighten” the DPS curve compared to other sets just makes the other sets intrinsically better-performing with food.

There is no “fix” to the berserker “meta” involving any kind of stat curving, changing, or modifications.

Recall the ferocity change. That was intended to curb the difference. All it did was make dungeon parties even more stringent because overall DPS got lowered for all builds. Players using Assassin’s stats or using it as a hybrid into it got punished as well for no reason. It also nerfed berserker substantially for WvW.

Berserker stat gear isn’t OP. It’s one of the weakest in sPvP and aside from on certain classes performing certain roles, useless and arguably one of the worst combinations in WvW.

People complaining about this are complaining that DPS builds deal more damage than tank builds, and that people want to spend less time grinding, so they ask for DPS, since everyone has heals.

Having three stats in damage stats SHOULD yield by far the most DPS. The only thing that should come similar to this is sinister, but stack capping on conditions inhibits this. Otherwise, the set is functioning perfectly as intended and should not see power drops.

If you like playing tanks, I’m sorry, but you’re in the same position most DPS players are in games which require tanks. It sucks, being marginalized for someone else on a different build, doesn’kitten

Most groups do not require it. Optimized speed run groups will require it, but otherwise, it’s not necessary, and not dying is usually more essential than dealing some damage and downing instantly.

This isn’t a balance question. This is the fact the game was designed to work this way, and people no long need to be held back by needing x build to do content. People get to play what’s fun to them, and the speed-clear optimization meta is going to remain no matter what happens, no matter the game.

Jana.6831:

No, sorry but you’re mistaken. Usually the right skills used in the right moment are enough to conquer any content.

It can’t be applied to PvP where your enemy plays too.
As a berserker medi guard, my chances of beating a skilled cele elementalist 1 on 1 are close to zero. I can still be a great asset for my team on berserkers (specially focusing down other berserkers), but that’s a fight I should completely avoid most of the time and should be dealt with on a different way.
A good PvP composition requires a lot of sinergies involving quite different builds and gear to work properly. I would never put my money on a full berserker comp defeating a top team.

Vargamonth.2047:

It can’t be applied to PvP where your enemy plays too.
As a berserker medi guard, my chances of beating a skilled cele elementalist 1 on 1 are close to zero. I can still be a great asset for my team on berserkers (specially focusing down other berserkers), but that’s a fight I should completely avoid most of the time and should be dealt with on a different way.
A good PvP composition requires a lot of sinergies involving quite different builds and gear to work properly. I would never put my money on a full berserker comp defeating a top team.

It could work, depending on how skilled both teams are but this is really going away from a) the topic, b) what I meant – I never recommended everybody I this game to go full zerker, I’m just saying that you don’t need clerics/knights in pve and that I can survive as a full zerker in wvw as well – I also can beat cele eles if they’re not very skilled.

Jana.6831:

I’m just saying that you don’t need clerics/knights in pve and that I can survive as a full zerker in wvw as well – I also can beat cele eles if they’re not very skilled.

Except the WvW part, which I won’t say anything since I haven’t played that format for a LONG time, I completely agree with everything else.
I play almost exclusively berserker too for PvE and sPvP and I’m not exactly sure why or what are we discussing about :P

Vargamonth.2047:

Jana.6831:

I’m just saying that you don’t need clerics/knights in pve and that I can survive as a full zerker in wvw as well – I also can beat cele eles if they’re not very skilled.

Except the WvW part, which I won’t say anything since I haven’t played that format for a LONG time, I completely agree with everything else.
I play almost exclusively berserker too for PvE and sPvP and I’m not exactly sure why or what are we discussing about :P

I quoted you twice when you said that defensive gear “brings something to the table in some content”.
I say it doesn’t except if you aren’t “skilled enough”/don’t know the content you’re about to face or if the party you’re running with isn’t that good.

Edit: And with that I mean PvE.

Built into the game itself are clues why berserker stats do NOT need to be changed.

PvE involves slow, easily avoidable attacks and stacking. The result is every stat combo being sub par compared to berserker.

PvP involves unpredictable, goal oriented and unstackable gameplay. The result is better use of other stat combos AND condition mechanics.

Again, changes need to be made at the content level, not the balance level.

Give us a reason NOT to use zerker. Give us a reason TO use the other stats. Don’t just nerf us as if we’ve been cheating this whole time.

“This isn’t a balance question. This is the fact the game was designed to work this way, and people no long need to be held back by needing x build to do content. People get to play what’s fun to them, and the speed-clear optimization meta is going to remain no matter what happens, no matter the game.”

Excuse me, but I’d like to point out that isn’t this exactly the argument?

You’re saying that “people no longer NEED to be held back by needing X build,” but it’s becoming increasingly common in-game that you do NEED to be Berserker or kicked.

It’s pretty much the reason why I’ve just given up on PVE and spend 90% of my time in PVP. At least there skilled people can make any build work and can lead to some surprises

For example, I met a hybrid (as in amulet wise) PP thief just a while ago that had a top spot on the kill board. It was mad fun since you usually never see that work, but they made it work!

Jana.6831:

I quoted you twice when you said that defensive gear “brings something to the table in some content”.
I say it doesn’t except if you aren’t “skilled enough”/don’t know the content you’re about to face or if the party you’re running with isn’t that good.

Edit: And with that I mean PvE.

And that’s something I agree with.

On my second post I already said that defensive stats are never a must and act as a difficulty slider. That’s pretty much the same.

On the first one I was pointing that most of the community is much more open minded to the use of these stats for certain pieces of content, where they can provide a clear advantage. It’s not explicit but I meant in terms of ease.
Regular dungeons, specially low level ones, are not the case because they can be completed (not talking about beating records and things like that) using incredibly simple tactics with an extrmely low skill level requeriment. Using a tanky build can work against these tactics and it’s hardly justified difficulty wise.