Guild Wars 2

To my opinion Berserker stuff is too strong in pve. I will now try to reason it.

Lets assume you have a blanc lv 80 char having

1k power
1k vit ~16khp
1k toughness +Armor~2kArmor
1k precision ~5%crit chance
50% base crit dmg

and we have 600 primary stat, 2 times 400secundary stat (or 40% critdmg)

I will not reflect condition dmg and healing power here, but it is similar.

the weapon attack is 1k, leading to a DPS of 2k*95%+2k*5%*1,5 (noncrit+crit) =2050DMG per second
the effective health is calculated via Armor*2/3 x HP/1000 (assuming 2/3 dmg is taken from direct hits)= 21333EHP

A knight setup adds 600toughness, 400 precision (roughly 20%crit) and 400 power, which is still quite offensive. Therefore, the DPS changes to 2,4k*75%+2,4k*25%*1,5=2700DPS (31,7% increase)
While the EHP change to 2,6k*2/3*16=27733EHP (30% increase)

A Berserker setup adds 600Power, 400Precision (roughly 20%crit) and 40%critdmg
Boosting the DPS to 2,6k*75%+2,6k*25%*1,9=3185DPS(55% increase), while the EHP remain at 100%

This looks quite balanced to me. Boosting one stat is somehow compensated (55% and 0% vs. 30% and 31,7%). However, this was only half of the armor, so lets see what happens when we add the 2nd half:

Using two Knightsetups changes DPS and EHP as following:
DPS: 2,8k*55%+2,8k*45%*1,5=3430DPS (67% increase)
EHP: 3,2k*2/3*16=34133EHP (60% increase)

Knight+Berserker Setup instead:
DPS 3k*55%+3k*45%*1,9=4215DPS (105% increase)
EHP: 2,6k*2/3*16=27733EHP (30% increase)

Full Berserker setup:
DPS: 3,2k*55%+3,2k*45%*2,3=5072DPS (147% increase)
EHP: 100%

This shows a clear trend that more Berserker means more stats in the end, however, this is still not the end of the story. We love to play in a party, which means we get buffs from our mates and we use skills and potions to boost ourselves. I will not refer to defensive buffs at this place, because this would be too complex to show the influence on the one hand and on the other hand i will explain in the end why it is not needed. That said we get permanently attitional 15% crit chance from banners and fury and 300 extra power from might, banners etc. Finally we are using potions VS undead or whatever comes across us and receive an extra 10% dmg.

DualKnightDPS: (3,1k*40%+3,1k*60%*1,5)*1,1=4433DPS (116% increase)
KnightBerserkerDPS:(3,3k*40%+3,3k*60%*1,9)*1,1=5590DPS (173% increase)
FullBerserkerDPS:(3,5k*40%+3,5k*60%*2,3)*1,1=6853DPS (234% increase)

Still, these values can be enchanced by traits giving +10%dmg traits, rune of scholar etc. The more offensive traits, the bigger the gap. For easier calculation lets assume that traits add again 10% dmg on top. Therefore, a Boss with 400k HP that is solod by a
DualKnightDPS: 400k/(4433*1,1)DPS takes 82 seconds
KnightBerserkerDPS 400k/(5590*1,1)DPS takes 65 seconds
FullBerserkerDPS 400k/(6853*1,1)DPS takes 53 seconds (i.e. even when he is downed for 5 seconds, he is still faster than a hybrid paying attention to the fact that another FullBerserker revives)

What does it tell us? A well traited player havind ascended Berserker gear can kill a boss 35-40% faster than a player running offensive knight gear. But there was something about effective HP.. well
1st: toughness does not protect vs condition dmg
2nd: Agonie is more effective if the player has more HP
3rd: Healing power needs to be skilled separately
4th: Dodging prevents all DMG
5th: Bosses often simply onehit, there is no point in stacking HP etc., Furthermore, the example shows that with 21333EHP the Full Berserk can take 402DMG per second and still win the fight (without healing) and the offensive DualKnight can only take 416DMG per second, which is 3,5% more, while he needs about 55% more time to kill the same boss.

My suggestion is to cap the attributes, i.e. the first 100 power grant 200 power, the 2nd 100 grant 150, 120, 100, 80, 65, 50 and so on. I’m sure there are nice functions for it. Or to change the effect of a dodge roll into - reduces incomming DMG and Conditionduration by 90% and changes knockdown, fear, pull, push, stun etc. into weaker conditions like cripple etc. This could make defensive builds essential to exist in pve. Just think of GW2 in 3 years when your adding the new tier that comes after ascended: CritDMG will further increase and normal builds will become even worse. Im aware of the thing that this argumentation has many flaws as its does not pay attention to condition dmgetc.

PS you can calculate for youself what happens when your using full Power (primary), Vitaly, Toughness: 400k/((3,5k*0,8+3,5k*0,2*1,5)*1,1*1,1)DPS takes 85seconds, and EHP change to: 2,8k*2/3 *(16+8)=44800EHP

I believe anet did this on purpose. They don’t want tank in PVE so they made defensive builds almost worthless

Berserker is fine the way it is. Most players are too bad to use it, so it means only non-terrible people can use it outside of cof p1.

Wukunlin.8461:

I believe anet did this on purpose. They don’t want tank in PVE so they made defensive builds almost worthless

They outright said this is true about healing. From the facts it does seem they have the same feeling about tanking.

well tanks are useless if you don’t have a healer to keep them alive

They don’t need to change attributs and it isn’t the stats themselves.

They need to make a reason to build differently. They don’t need to change numbers for that.

For example, what is the point to bring in a CC spec’ed build when the boss can’t be CC. Trash dies quick enough and I don’t really care to spend my time killing PvE trash. I get enough of them in the open world.

Mobs are also dumb. Very dumb. Blazingly inept. They don’t heal, they don’t attck very fast. They keep doing to you what didn’t work before. That is why they do so much damage when they do hit you and why defensive builds are not necessary.

Up side is I can run around open world with my WvW set and not care. I do change my traits for dungeons, but then I do need to up my DPS for them since mobs are just bags of HP.

Then there is the lack of trinity. I don’t mind that it isn’t here, but that means everyone has to be able to do everything and in PvE, most everything is DPS since there isn’t anything else.

DDO had traps so you brought a thief. That same thief could be built to be self sufficient in all their needs or they could have built one that needed a healer. Same could be said about almost any other class in that game. There isn’t anythign like that in this game, not asking for it to be, I’m just using DDO as an example.

I do agree with the OP. I think the gap between offense and defense gear is too great. So it is hard to design pve content when group can consist of 5 tank to 5 glasscannon.

That being said, a 30% difference in effecitive health also mean the difference between being able to stay full health or die.

I really think Anet should consider “for pve” lessen the gap between offense and defense gear.

But on the other hand, player should realize they should get a berserker set. Having a bunch of gear and build don’t mean every build is viable in every situation. It mean you should learn to adapt and use different gear and build in different situation.

yes a skilled player in berserker gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in apoc gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in rampager gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in carrion gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in rabid gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in knight gear is OP……….
etc……

Point?

Berserker overbuffed in terms of damage? No, therein lies the tradeoff between damage and survivability. There has been the possibility of glass cannons in every major game I’ve played. There is nothing wrong with berserker stats at all.

Thank you OP for giving us the numbers, but most of us figured this out just by first impressions almost a year ago.

Sadly some people will keep the argument of the validity of zerker gear alive for a long time to come.. (Yes you can run anything which shows either how skilled you are or how easy the game is, your pick. But its common knowledge that zerker is the best and no one is stopping anyone from buying a set..)

While I dont agree that other builds are useless under the lights of hard content, I do agree that zerker has the upper hand because most content is just too silly.

And when they buff pve content, they make “Two shot” mechanics, mobs that hit so hard that even tanks cant survive.

It is simple, we need content where CC will matter, where tatical play will matter.
And how do we that?

Guess.
Bringing in support builds into play.
Aetherblade Retreat was a heaven for support builds. We did it with a “tank” and a “healer” and it became a breeze, but still challenging.

Tank and healers in this game doesnt need to be the same concept than other games. There are no way to artificially generate aggro and everyone needs to dodge and use skills.

Healers can’t just stay back and heal, but the synergy of the party, with a support specced can overcome gaps.

Those two roles (healers and tanks) to our reality must be called “supports”.

The huge DPS Gap … which turns into a Damage Mitigation gap too (nicely illustrated, O.P.) … would become a major Detriment in any fight where mobs had the same levels of Retribution we faced everyday in WvW. …along with CC’able support Adds that cast prots on them like S-Bond and Angelic …or if they gained a lot more Stacks of Enrage and Dealt back damage FASTER & equal to what they’re taking like Shiro used to…. lots of ways to put real risk back into equation here ppl…

Reihert.1509:

And when they buff pve content, they make “Two shot” mechanics, mobs that hit so hard that even tanks cant survive.

It is simple, we need content where CC will matter, where tatical play will matter.
And how do we that?

They will never do this. For 2 major reasons. First, Anet hate the holy trinity, or any kind of encounter that requires a setup. Second, they promote the game as a game “play the way you like it”. Full berserker team will be always viable. And in the most cases – the better choice, if, of course, the team knows the boss mechanics and knows how to dodge.

Now that we have those 2, we can assume that they will never release a PvE content that need dedicated tanks and/or healers/any kind of support to be overcome.

I like the idea of no healers/tanks in PvP, but IMO it makes the PvE content really dull and tiresome. Thats why, as a PvE player, I spend less and less time in GW2, and more and more time in MMOS that have the so hated holy trinity.

lilstev.3498:

yes a skilled player in berserker gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in apoc gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in rampager gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in carrion gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in rabid gear is OP……….
yes a skilled player in knight gear is OP……….
etc……

Point?

^,end of story.Also going full berserk has it downsides.

Caedmon.6798:

^,end of story.Also going full berserk has it downsides.

Name one, and watch the rest of the dungeon regs laugh at you…

ilr.9675:

Caedmon.6798:

^,end of story.Also going full berserk has it downsides.

Name one, and watch the rest of the dungeon regs laugh at you…

Why would i name one now knowing that i will be laughed at by people like yourself unable to listen to other people because you all know best ? Also,it’s common sense,maxing out one stat provides you with lower overall stats..i think you can work that out yourself,or do you need some help with that ?

Not really… since almost every single encounter is always a DPS race with well rehearsed Dodges & Refelcts for the occasional “big hit”. That is the entire point of this thread and all the Math the OP was determined enough to estimate out. …or did you just kind of glaze over that section?

…
…It basically states, that the more damage you put out, the sooner the fight ends.
IOW: less Big Hits you have to dodge, thus the less Defense/Healing needed in the first place… This ISN’T true in PvP, and Anet said they didn’t want everyone having to learn 2 completely different games to transition from one to the other, yet here’s all their PvE encounters … nothing like PvP with its constant DPS counters (& bunkers that still rule most of the meta)

Please learn to read already youre making a reply that has absolutely nothing to do with what i said and who i replied on in the first place.Again,"every Skilled player in the proper gear is “OP”.Maxing out one stat lowers your other stats significantly.Doing a dung in full berserk vs a mix of certain stats makes your run go what,2 minutes faster with the probability of going down in two hits ? Thats the downside of going full bersk..Like i said in the previous post wich you didnt seem to understand,Full bersk is less sustain= less toughness = less vitality = less survivability overall and the chance of getting youself downed much faster then someone build for sustain..thats all m saying here.

I read it. You didn’t have a point. You thought you did. Maybe Learn to play first? ..and then maybe you won’t feel like your point is being missed??

Every skilled player in DIFFERENT gear, is not OP. A skilled player in Sentinel’s is completely wasting their Skill potential. They already had evades & interrupts and dodging to deal with most of the slow attacks every mob in the game puts out roughly 2 seconds apart. When you get REALLY good, you can actually anticipate when the next big Skill is coming b/c they use it upon recharge usually. This is the FACTS that you can not argue against. You are not allowed, to say that Defense combats the overall timesink of the PvE game at the same level that pure Offense does currently. Defense quickly hits a point of diminshing returns.

Do you understand what a diminishing return is?

I use Zerk gear

However,

It don’t matter what gear I wear, I’m always OP!

OP=Player skill, not gear….

Zerker isn’t OP. Other builds are useless. Simple like that.

I did a topic complaining about Healing Power, where you get 1500 of healing power in order to increase the base healing of the skills in an average of 23%. To get 1500 of healing power you must use all sets with healing as primary stats + full stacks of sigil of life (without counting runes). Healing power is the most worthless stat you can get.

Berserker isn’t overpowered, it’s that defensive stats simply don’t scale in PvE.

In GW2, because there’s no gear treadmill, there’s always going to be an upper limit in both player damage and defenses. This works out great in PvP, because you always know what kind of damage to expect from players, so you get more bang for your buck with defensive stats.

NPC mobs don’t have the same limitations. Their damage modifiers continue to increase as the content gets more difficult.

In games like WoW, tanks are able to maintain defensive stats because they continually get more gear in the gear treadmilll to keep upwith the ever increasing NPC mob damage. GW2 doesn’t have this. Eventually, you’re going to reach a point, even when you’re completely maxed out in defensive stats that you’re just going to get 1 shot by everything.

In this case, your only defense is active defenses (blinds, shields, dodges, etc). And when your only defense is active defenses, passive defensive stats do nothing for you and if anything make it worse because it drags the fight out.

It’s a fundamental flaw with GW2. It’s NOT the fault of the armor.

Funset.7893:

They will never do this. For 2 major reasons. First, Anet hate the holy trinity, or any kind of encounter that requires a setup. Second, they promote the game as a game “play the way you like it”. Full berserker team will be always viable. And in the most cases – the better choice, if, of course, the team knows the boss mechanics and knows how to dodge.

Now that we have those 2, we can assume that they will never release a PvE content that need dedicated tanks and/or healers/any kind of support to be overcome.

I like the idea of no healers/tanks in PvP, but IMO it makes the PvE content really dull and tiresome. Thats why, as a PvE player, I spend less and less time in GW2, and more and more time in MMOS that have the so hated holy trinity.

The trouble is that now as far as PvE goes, ‘play your way’ has become ‘play full zerker or GTKO’. It’s true that there isn’t a trinity, but there’s just a…well, unity, instead. I’m not sure that’s much of an improvement, particularly for those of us who have enjoyed roles other than glass cannon (be that tank, healer, support, jack of all trades) in the past.

I like the idea of more build diversity and no ‘required’ setups for content, but the community seem to have turned the path of least resistance into, essentially, a requirement on its own, and the game is backing that up at the moment. I’d like to see things like 5 healer specs or 5 tank specs clearing dungeons and doing it efficiently enough that that benefits compared to the four warrior-one mesmer-all zerker group would be marginal, at best.

Raine.1394:

Berserker overbuffed in terms of damage? No, therein lies the tradeoff between damage and survivability. There has been the possibility of glass cannons in every major game I’ve played. There is nothing wrong with berserker stats at all.

It’s not particularly about the amount of buff and tradeoff, but relative opportunity cost.

Is Rampager or Cleric as viable to Berserker’s in as many situations? Dismiss what each are used for and look only at what advantage they give to a build and count how often that benefit pays off.

Not saying Berserker stats are overpowered or even that the other stat combos should get a buff in some way, but more content situations should happen where different varieties shine. Because that is part of the problem: it’s just always better to take things out fast with direct damage.

Leo G.4501:

Raine.1394:

Berserker overbuffed in terms of damage? No, therein lies the tradeoff between damage and survivability. There has been the possibility of glass cannons in every major game I’ve played. There is nothing wrong with berserker stats at all.

It’s not particularly about the amount of buff and tradeoff, but relative opportunity cost.

Is Rampager or Cleric as viable to Berserker’s in as many situations? Dismiss what each are used for and look only at what advantage they give to a build and count how often that benefit pays off.

Not saying Berserker stats are overpowered or even that the other stat combos should get a buff in some way, but more content situations should happen where different varieties shine. Because that is part of the problem: it’s just always better to take things out fast with direct damage.

I’m glad you mentioned “rampagers”. All condition stats are kitten in pve by the fact that conditions are accounted for as stacks on a mob rather than damage by player as it is in other games. If you were to add 5 more condition builds to a group you would not be adding materially to the damage output of the group. Compare that to adding 5 zerker warriors. Therein lies the problem. The problem here is how DoT is managed in the game and not so much around the existence or OPness of direct damage gear.

There are many problems with combat and I’m not saying its fine. It does indicate a problem when it’s all about damage in a game. What I am saying is that there is no problem with zerker stats per se. You’ll find the fix to the zerker problem elsewhere.

Mikau.6920:

Zerker isn’t OP. Other builds are useless. Simple like that.

I did a topic complaining about Healing Power, where you get 1500 of healing power in order to increase the base healing of the skills in an average of 23%. To get 1500 of healing power you must use all sets with healing as primary stats + full stacks of sigil of life (without counting runes). Healing power is the most worthless stat you can get.

^dito

That’s why gw2 is best damage oriented, toughness is not much importance as damage output (atack+crits) as some classes no matter ho much armor/tough have, they will always get hitted over 15k+.

example of killshot hitting guardian (elite tome was on )with 2.6k Toughness and hit 19k.

Zerker isnt overbuffed its just the high DPS and damage carrier for the group, wich is almost if not all that matters.

GW2 is a brainless kill fast game to avoid damage.

Aeolus.3615:

GW2 is a brainless kill fast game to avoid damage.

That is sad, but perhaps we can hope for improvements in the future. The developers have already indicated that they are going to add new skills slowly to all classes. If were lucky in 3 or 4 months every class can relyably cause 3 conditions: e.g. Ranger permanent crippling, poison and every 13 seconds a daze. Other classes can maintain permanently and can push or pull every 13 seconds.

In this case the can throw the current state of the art away, i.e. every class should be able to do everything and they might create real options again. For dungeon A we need at least 2 (Ranger|Elementalist|Warriors), 1 (Ranger|Mesmer|Thief) and 2(Guardien|Engineer|Mesmer). Because there are Temple Knights, that have extremely high melee dmg, like 7k Toughness and Swiftness, thus they have to be perma crippled and die from condition dmg.

Currently, I really dislike that the game is more or less Button smashing and dodging in pve. Some bosses got great mechanics, that you must not move, have to melee, must not attack in specific phases and many more. However, none of them is related to any class. So to my opinion the “Defilant” stacks are broken as they make interrupting or pushing etc. to a pure luck basis. My suggestion is e.g. to make a Boss instead Immune to every hard condition except daze, the the next boss cannot be dazed and must be knocked out of a circle where hes channeling his power.

Anyway, I did not want to address this problem in this thread, the point i was trying to make is that A full Berserk group can kill bosses and mobs in about half of the time like a mixed build. ConditionDMG is scaling linearly, while CritDMG is scaling exponentially (more crit-> critdmg has more importance->Power has more importance) 100 Power in a build with 20% critchance and 50% base critDMG worth 110DMG, while 100 Power in a build with 60%crit chance and 150%critDMG worths 250DMG. Why can such builds exist? Because dodge, aegis, blinding are the BEST defense and they do not scale with Toughness, Healing Power and Vitality.

If pure Berserk DMG group kills a Boss in 3 minutes, while a Mixed group needs 4 minutes and a Tanky group needs 5.5 Minutes it would work fine for me (of course all are using the same traits and maximum damage modifiers). But the sad reality is that a pure DMG group kills that Boss in 2Minutes, the Mixed group in 4minutes and the Tanky group in 5 Minutes. (Mixed= dmg as secondary stats, Tanky= stats like heal, precision and vitality)