Guild Wars 2

Gambling is serious business , it could cause addiction, you could lose a fortune etc. It is illegal in many country for anyone who isn’t 18 year old yet. Now, the law’s definiton of gambling in my country is: Every game counts as gambling, where the player in exchange of money or any valuable possessions, under certain circumstances he has a chance to win money, or other valuable prizes. Winning or losing depends solely or predominantly on luck.
Now we all know in the black lion chests you could win items of different value, and with the gem/gold conversion we can even tell how much does an item worth in real money, also it depends purely on luck what you win. Also black lion keys main source is the gem store, you can buy them with gold , but you also can buy them with real money .
I’m not in law school, therefore I don’t really know what fall under the category of gambling and I hope someone here knows. But for me the keys feels like they are gambling and at least should be restricted to 18+.

Scipio.3204:

Gambling is serious business , it could cause addiction, you could lose a fortune etc. It is illegal in many country for anyone who isn’t 18 year old yet. Now, the law’s definiton of gambling in my country is: Every game counts as gambling, where the player in exchange of money or any valuable possessions, under certain circumstances he has a chance to win money, or other valuable prizes. Winning or losing depends solely or predominantly on luck.
Now we all know in the black lion chests you could win items of different value, and with the gem/gold conversion we can even tell how much does an item worth in real money, also it depends purely on luck what you win. Also black lion keys main source is the gem store, you can buy them with gold , but you also can buy them with real money .
I’m not in law school, therefore I don’t really know what fall under the category of gambling and I hope someone here knows. But for me the keys feels like they are gambling and at least should be restricted to 18+.

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as “the stakes”) on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.

The definition fits perfectly

Games and especially gambling in them is still quite a new thing so it will take a while until older people catch up. I would expect to see laws in a few years.

Reminds me of an old article on massively.

It’s gambling… except it’s worse.

You know what would be weird? If you walked into a casino and none of the machines or tables told you the odds. Everything else would be the same: the payout, the mechanics, the money required to play, but no odds. Just give us your money and hope you win but never have a clue how great or small your chances are of actually winning.

When I was young, I used to buy baseball cards. You always wanted a full set, but you never knew what you were going to get in the pack. Baseball cards have a cash value. The items in this game don’t because you can’t sell them for cash.

Gambling laws only exist in games were you can cash out like Second Life. This is more along the lines of baseball cards. First of all you’re not even paying cash for black lion keys, you’re paying cash for gems which can buy many things. Costumes, toys, minis.

You’re spending gems, which are not cash, and have no cash value (because they can’t be sold) for black lion keys.

So yeah, until they change gambling laws, this isn’t gambling, even if it does fall under the dictionary definition…it doesn’t fall under the legal definition.

Gambling is a word in an English language. You can gamble on a person’s honesty too, but it’s not illegal. lol

if lock boxes are gambling then so is buying gems, exchanging them for gold, buying things and using the mystic forge.

actually so is buying gw2 and hoping to get anything including a good time.
Never understood it the hate. STO fine. I am a lifetimer there (but then again I get free cryptic points forever)

Wethospu.6437:

Games and especially gambling in them is still quite a new thing so it will take a while until older people catch up. I would expect to see laws in a few years.

I guess that’s why A.Net is so aggressive about it. They try to exploit it as long as there are no regulations. There is imo a good reason why gambling is restricted in so many countries

Vayne.8563:

When I was young, I used to buy baseball cards. You always wanted a full set, but you never knew what you were going to get in the pack. Baseball cards have a cash value. The items in this game don’t because you can’t sell them for cash.

Gambling laws only exist in games were you can cash out like Second Life. This is more along the lines of baseball cards. First of all you’re not even paying cash for black lion keys, you’re paying cash for gems which can buy many things. Costumes, toys, minis.

You’re spending gems, which are not cash, and have no cash value (because they can’t be sold) for black lion keys.

So yeah, until they change gambling laws, this isn’t gambling, even if it does fall under the dictionary definition…it doesn’t fall under the legal definition.

Gambling is a word in an English language. You can gamble on a person’s honesty too, but it’s not illegal. lol

Baseball cards are more like minipacks, not like BL chests. You know there will be 3 of them inside, and you might get a rare but most likely a common that everyone has. I wasn’t talking about these kind of things. BL chests on the other hand might contain something that has zero value or one of the most expensive things in the game.

Also, it’s true you are spending gem ,which you buy, but I don’t really see the point here. In poker you don’t use your money directly in game either. And it’s true you can’t change back your winning to money ,this is why I made this thread, otherwise it would be clear it’s gambling, but the value between winnings could be drastically big (From zero to ~1500g) and you can put a price on the value of these items in real money too.

Yeah, morally, it’s totally gambling, but legally it falls through a loophole that allows them to do it because you can’t convert anything you find back into cash money (through approved means, at least). So long as you can’t sell a baseball card back to the company for a profit, it doesn’t matter whether you can sell it to another individual for a profit, and the same principle applies here.

I do wish that they’d do away with the principle though, because it is straight up evil, and game companies shouldn’t be evil when they can help it. I don’t mind RNG when it comes free, and I don’t mind paying for things when they aren’t random, but asking players to pay for something that is random is just plain wrong.

From my understanding it’s only gambling if there is a chance of you not getting anything. Now if keys are worth it is something entirely different.

A lot of things in video game could be pigeon-holed under the term “gambling”. Mystic forge, is what springs to mind straight away. Mawdrey eating bloodstone for a random selection of items. Using a salvage kit to remove an expensive upgrade from an item (and you have the chance to lose the upgrade entirely).
Heck, even farming for rare drops could be considered gambling because you’re spending your time waiting for the RNG god to drop something in your favour.

I’m no law student/expert either, but I think age-gating such a thing would be near impossible.

For starters, you can’t directly purchase black lion keys with real life money. You can buy gems with real life money and exchange those for black lion keys, but you can’t age-gate gems because they are used to purchase “non-gambling” items.

You can also obtain black lion keys as rewards (drops, some story rewards and map completion rewards). You receive an item which has no other value apart from being used- can it really be considered gambling in this circumstance?

For Anet to be able to enforce a 18+ gate on “gambling” items, they’d have to ask for some sort of valid ID to prove your age. Once again, I’m no expert, but handling this type of data is probably very risky/expensive for them, just like how credit card details have to be carefully secured.

Gambling law is different from country to country and this is an international game. For instance, in the UK, you can involve yourself in the national lottery at 16 years old. In other countries, any sort of gambling is completely illegal. If a country felt so offended by GW2 having some forms of “gambling”, they’d ban the game or restrict it.

Yes, unfortunately gambling is a problem for some people. However, people with gambling problems would probably invest their money in something that they might get real life rewards from.

I’m sure a lot of people throw their real-life money at the gem store for keys, but if they have that sort of money they’ll probably be consenting adults anyway. There is extensive drop research available and being done on black lion chests- people who buy keys for a particular item tend to know what the odds are.

With these kinds of issues, I take the “if you have a problem with it, don’t do it” kind of stance.

Ohoni.6057:

I do wish that they’d do away with the principle though, because it is straight up evil, and game companies shouldn’t be evil when they can help it.

“Evil” is a bit of a stretch, but it is rather exploitative of people of people who spend too much money buying keys because they’re trying to get unique rewards from the lockboxes. Unfortunately it’s the name of the game in the industry currently: microtransactions and gambling, delivering less content for more money.

Crimson Clouds.4853:

Yes, unfortunately gambling is a problem for some people. However, people with gambling problems would probably invest their money in something that they might get real life rewards from.

I’m sure a lot of people throw their real-life money at the gem store for keys, but if they have that sort of money they’ll probably be consenting adults anyway. There is extensive drop research available and being done on black lion chests- people who buy keys for a particular item tend to know what the odds are.

With these kinds of issues, I take the “if you have a problem with it, don’t do it” kind of stance.

If you’ll suffer a metaphor, I’d argue that just because you know someone has a massive drinking problem doesn’t mean it’s particularly laudable of you to keep pouring him drinks – nor is it particularly wrong for anyone to comment on the morality of continuing to pour him drinks.

Yes, it’s their money and their choice, but let’s be honest: lockboxes aren’t accidentally designed to have low drop rates for the most desirable items. They encourage the use of large quantities of keys, which you can only get if you invest too much time into farming them or too much money into buying them.

Some of you are forgetting that gambling is an addiction and being an adult which have a job and money is not enough to get out of it. Otherwise there wouldn’t be specialized centers to help those people going out of this problem. Because it’s an illnes, however you want to watch it.

Scipio.3204:

Baseball cards are more like minipacks, not like BL chests. You know there will be 3 of them inside, and you might get a rare but most likely a common that everyone has. I wasn’t talking about these kind of things. BL chests on the other hand might contain something that has zero value or one of the most expensive things in the game.

Hmm that is odd.

Each Black Lion Chest contains 3 randomly selected items.

The first lot is always either a booster or, rarely, a booster multi-pack.( crafting booster worth 150gems) note that is worth more than one blc key(125) on double checking all but 2 boosts are worth more than the key.

The other two lots of items are selected at random from the other categories of drops.

Do the math. One should ALWAYS atleast recoup 3/4th gem value of the BL key. I would put 100% but i dont like 100% so I dropped it down to 75%.

Sounds like a a minipack to me atleast by your definition

Neve.7134:

Some of you are forgetting that gambling is an addiction and being an adult which have a job and money is not enough to get out of it. Otherwise there wouldn’t be specialized centers to help those people going out of this problem. Because it’s an illnes, however you want to watch it.

I love the its an addiction line.

So is gaming.

Hmm isnt it strange that like “lockboxes” most of the great stuff in this game have really low drop chances? Precursors, legendaries, world boss exotics, heck most unique exotics?

Sorta sounds like they are exploiting people into spending time in the game.

There’s a few things to bear in mind with this.

Firstly gambling laws vary greatly between countries and Anet only need to consider those that apply where the game is actually sold. If GW2 wasn’t officially released in your country then they don’t have to adhere to their laws even if you can play it.

Secondly in most cases age restrictions on gambling only apply to paying (or winning) money. This is why it’s legal for kids to play games like marbles or Pogs or whatever it is kids play these days where they could, based largely on chance, lose their tokens (or win someone elses).

As many other people have explained you don’t actually gamble with real money in GW2. You give Anet money in exchange for gems and then exchange the gems for an item which you use to gamble. Depending on the wording of the legislation it may also be relevant that no matter what you win your prize has no cash value – you can’t sell or exchange them for real money.

In fact in strict legal terms you don’t actually win anything at all because according to the EULA all items in the game remain the intellectual property of Arenanet, even if they are tied to your account.

Also in some countries age restrictions don’t apply if you are guaranteed to get a prize and can see what all of the possible prizes are in advance. That’s why things like Kinder Eggs, those vending machines that give you a random plastic toy in a bubble and fairground games where you pick some type of token (no skill involved, just choosing) and get a random prize can be played by under 18’s.

Yes, black lion chests are a form of gambling, though likely not in the legal sense.

Most “chance based” items like this feed on addictions. You see it in “gatcha” boxes in 99% of MMORPG’s. The Black Lion Chest is GW2’s gatcha box. Some people will spend a huge amount of money purchasing keys to get that rare diamond in the desert reward, though ANet is much kinder in their application of the “gatcha effect” than other games, by allowing players to obtain keys in game though various methods, rather than making the key gem store exclusive (which, realistically, would probably net them a lot of money. most MMORPG profit is from “gatcha” items and fashion)

DonQuack.9025:

Scipio.3204:

Baseball cards are more like minipacks, not like BL chests. You know there will be 3 of them inside, and you might get a rare but most likely a common that everyone has. I wasn’t talking about these kind of things. BL chests on the other hand might contain something that has zero value or one of the most expensive things in the game.

Hmm that is odd.

Each Black Lion Chest contains 3 randomly selected items.

The first lot is always either a booster or, rarely, a booster multi-pack.( crafting booster worth 150gems) note that is worth more than one blc key(125) on double checking all but 2 boosts are worth more than the key.

The other two lots of items are selected at random from the other categories of drops.

Do the math. One should ALWAYS atleast recoup 3/4th gem value of the BL key. I would put 100% but i dont like 100% so I dropped it down to 75%.

Sounds like a a minipack to me atleast by your definition

Expect not all booster has gemstore value, Speed booster for example or Rejuvenation Booster. On the random things, you get for example two Mystery tonics, which are account bound and there you go, zero value. It’s not likely to happen but it can.

Crimson Clouds.4853:

For Anet to be able to enforce a 18+ gate on “gambling” items, they’d have to ask for some sort of valid ID to prove your age. Once again, I’m no expert, but handling this type of data is probably very risky/expensive for them, just like how credit card details have to be carefully secured.

Actually if anything in the game came under gambling laws the process would be very simple. The entire game would be rated 18+ (or whatever rating each board/region considers appropriate) and you’d have to show ID to buy a copy at all.

Even if it’s just a mini game or minor part the entire game is rated as a whole.

Actually has happened to me. Forgot about those “no” value ones. therefore I guess my 75% is relatively valid.

Danikat.8537:

Actually if anything in the game came under gambling laws the process would be very simple. The entire game would be rated 18+ (or whatever rating each board/region considers appropriate) and you’d have to show ID to buy a copy at all.

Even if it’s just a mini game or minor part the entire game is rated as a whole.

I dont know. The game would prolly be illegal in NY then. If not they would prolly not sell it here as we the gamlber “can” sue for double.
“Sec. 5-423. Money paid for lottery tickets may be recovered by action.
Any person who shall purchase any share, interest, ticket, certificate of any share or interest, or part of a ticket, or any paper or instrument purporting to be a ticket or share or interest in any ticket, or purporting to be a certificate of any share or interest in any ticket, or in any portion of any lottery, may sue for and recover double the sum of money, and double the value of goods or things in action, which he may have paid or delivered in consideration of such purchase, with double costs of suit.”

Orcourse this is hearsay. But I doubt if the game were affected by gambling laws it would be as simple as show ID to buy the game.

Heck quite a few states just participating in a lottery(non state/npo) is a misdemeanour.
Ofcourse its also interesting to think about how it would SP games.

Danikat.8537:

The entire game would be rated 18+ (or whatever rating each board/region considers appropriate) and you’d have to show ID to buy a copy at all.

And suddenly the armors take an even skimpier turn.

Pandaman.4758:

Reminds me of an old article on massively.

It’s gambling… except it’s worse.

You know what would be weird? If you walked into a casino and none of the machines or tables told you the odds. Everything else would be the same: the payout, the mechanics, the money required to play, but no odds. Just give us your money and hope you win but never have a clue how great or small your chances are of actually winning.

If I was in Vegas I would never play at that casino. Yuck. I used to buy BL Chests when they were in the 25-35 gold range for 5 keys. They are too expensive now and there is no way I would buy gems to maybe get 10 luck and some boosters. If I want boosters I will just buy them. Likewise, if I want BL weapons, I will buy them with gold I earn in game. That’s a really good analogy in that article.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

When I was young, I used to buy baseball cards. You always wanted a full set, but you never knew what you were going to get in the pack. Baseball cards have a cash value. The items in this game don’t because you can’t sell them for cash.

Gambling laws only exist in games were you can cash out like Second Life. This is more along the lines of baseball cards. First of all you’re not even paying cash for black lion keys, you’re paying cash for gems which can buy many things. Costumes, toys, minis.

You’re spending gems, which are not cash, and have no cash value (because they can’t be sold) for black lion keys.

So yeah, until they change gambling laws, this isn’t gambling, even if it does fall under the dictionary definition…it doesn’t fall under the legal definition.

Gambling is a word in an English language. You can gamble on a person’s honesty too, but it’s not illegal. lol

Baseball cards are more like minipacks, not like BL chests. You know there will be 3 of them inside, and you might get a rare but most likely a common that everyone has. I wasn’t talking about these kind of things. BL chests on the other hand might contain something that has zero value or one of the most expensive things in the game.

Also, it’s true you are spending gem ,which you buy, but I don’t really see the point here. In poker you don’t use your money directly in game either. And it’s true you can’t change back your winning to money ,this is why I made this thread, otherwise it would be clear it’s gambling, but the value between winnings could be drastically big (From zero to ~1500g) and you can put a price on the value of these items in real money too.

Nope it’s not any different. At one point they had 3D cards, but you wouldn’t necessarily get one in every pack. You only had a chance to get the 3D card.

And getting the cards everyone had was pretty much worthless. I mean it’s not like you can sell Skip Jutze to anyone. It was a card no one cared about.

There’s really nothing in the BLTC that’s actually worthless. Transmuation charges aren’t worthless. Leveling scrolls aren’t worthless. Even when essences of luck where in teh chest, they weren’t worthless unless you happened to have 300 luck already (which very very few people do).

DonQuack.9025:

Actually has happened to me. Forgot about those “no” value ones. therefore I guess my 75% is relatively valid.

Technically, no booster has no value anymore (except the WXP ones perhaps). You can drop a couple gold on a stack of enchantment powder, and convert those into something else you’re interested in (in my case, converting a bunch of killstreak boosters I’ve been collecting the past couple years).

I actually didnt know you could buy it from that guy! I accidentally deleted my stack a while back and was raging at myself! TY TY TY <3

Anything that stimulates the reward centres in your brain can become addictive or habitual. Gaming can become “addictive”, so can drinking, eating and plenty of other enjoyable things.

However, just because it can become addictive and the minority have impulse control problems, it shouldn’t be barred off to everybody else who are responsible in that set action. If somebody has a gambling problem, they should go get help for it and avoid trigger stimuli if that helps them.

As for people who don’t have gambling problems, I’m sure they are largely able to control their impulses and take responsibility for their own actions. As for minors, their parents/guardians should be responsible and control their money/internet use and reinforce healthy choices.

I also agree on what’s been said- the rewards you get from black lion chests are (almost always) worth more than what the key was worth, even if you don’t receive something worth a lot of money. So yeah, it’s not technically a gamble because you will always receive something of value (but whether it’s useful to you or not is another question :P)

Vayne.8563:

Nope it’s not any different. At one point they had 3D cards, but you wouldn’t necessarily get one in every pack. You only had a chance to get the 3D card.

And getting the cards everyone had was pretty much worthless. I mean it’s not like you can sell Skip Jutze to anyone. It was a card no one cared about.

There’s really nothing in the BLTC that’s actually worthless. Transmuation charges aren’t worthless. Leveling scrolls aren’t worthless. Even when essences of luck where in teh chest, they weren’t worthless unless you happened to have 300 luck already (which very very few people do).

I disagree. Baseball card packs contained cards no matter what they worth. When you bought a pack, there was no chance that you got chewing gums ,candy(These aren’t worthless either) or other small things instead of a card you didn’t intend to buy, and there was no case you didn’t get any card at all.

Scipio.3204:

Gambling is serious business , it could cause addiction, you could lose a fortune etc. It is illegal in many country for anyone who isn’t 18 year old yet. Now, the law’s definiton of gambling in my country is: Every game counts as gambling, where the player in exchange of money or any valuable possessions, under certain circumstances he has a chance to win money, or other valuable prizes. Winning or losing depends solely or predominantly on luck.
Now we all know in the black lion chests you could win items of different value, and with the gem/gold conversion we can even tell how much does an item worth in real money, also it depends purely on luck what you win. Also black lion keys main source is the gem store, you can buy them with gold , but you also can buy them with real money .
I’m not in law school, therefore I don’t really know what fall under the category of gambling and I hope someone here knows. But for me the keys feels like they are gambling and at least should be restricted to 18+.

I think by the strictest definition any RNG would be considered gambling. Legally though I don’t think it would be. I’m pretty sure it has to involve actual currency.

Think of arcades and those tickets and crappy plastic toys.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Nope it’s not any different. At one point they had 3D cards, but you wouldn’t necessarily get one in every pack. You only had a chance to get the 3D card.

And getting the cards everyone had was pretty much worthless. I mean it’s not like you can sell Skip Jutze to anyone. It was a card no one cared about.

There’s really nothing in the BLTC that’s actually worthless. Transmuation charges aren’t worthless. Leveling scrolls aren’t worthless. Even when essences of luck where in teh chest, they weren’t worthless unless you happened to have 300 luck already (which very very few people do).

I disagree. Baseball card packs contained cards no matter what they worth. When you bought a pack, there was no chance that you got chewing gums ,candy(These aren’t worthless either) or other small things instead of a card you didn’t intend to buy, and there was no case you didn’t get any card at all.

Maybe a better analogy would be Magic the Gathering booster packs.

You know how many items you will get, there is never a chance that the pack will be empty, but there are a huge range of possible items. You can look up the series to find out what all the possibilities are, just like you can look up all the drops from BLC but there is no way to know what is in your specific pack.

You might get an extremely rare, powerful creature which would be very useful for you if you keep it, or worth a lot of money if you sell it (far more than the total price of the pack). This is the equivalent of getting a permanent Bank Contract, a gem store-only dye kit or a Black Lion Claim Ticket.

But more likely you’ll get extremely common spells and creatures and land cards. Which are the equivalent of boosters, transmutation charges, tomes of knowledge etc. They’re not truly useless or worthless, you can play them or trade them or sell them. But they’re not much use to you simply because you probably already have all you need and you won’t get anything better from someone else.

Black Lion Chests always drop 3 items. And all those items have a use. What people really mean when they say they got something ‘useless’ is that they got an item they personally didn’t want, but that’s not really the same thing.

Crimson Clouds.4853:

I also agree on what’s been said- the rewards you get from black lion chests are (almost always) worth more than what the key was worth, even if you don’t receive something worth a lot of money. So yeah, it’s not technically a gamble because you will always receive something of value (but whether it’s useful to you or not is another question :P)

You get things that are priced higher than black lion keys, that doesn’t mean they’re actually worth more :P

I mean, really, if a casino hands out a consolation T-shirt that they sell for $2,000 every time you lose $1,000 at the tables, it doesn’t change the fact you were gambling.

I love these hollow debates about obvious topics that need no answer. Are BL boxes gambling? Yes, pretty much, regardless if you’ve spent real money or ingame money, both costed someone effort to get. OH EM GEE, it is illegal! If it was, Anet would not be doing it. In the end, you are the only one responsible for (not) getting a useless digital item that won’t advance your life any further in any sort of way.

sharkstein.2109:

I love these hollow debates about obvious topics that need no answer. Are BL boxes gambling? Yes, pretty much, regardless if you’ve spent real money or ingame money, both costed someone effort to get. OH EM GEE, it is illegal! If it was, Anet would not be doing it.

As I understand it the discussion is more: ‘since Black Lion Chests obviously are gambling why are they not affected by legislation that regulates gambling?’

Anyone remember Moa Racing? That might not be spending real money, but it certainly came straight out and depicted gambling. Unlike the Black Lion Chests, you didn’t always get something in return for your cash. (This concern was raised back then too, when it was first introduced. I’m sure some people lost their game shirts on it too). Such a thing could feed a real-life gambler’s vice, I suppose. But better game money than real money.

Other things depicted or hinted at in game that are considered “naughty” in some circles: Killing. Theft. Sorcery. Lesbianism. Racial Prejudice. Gluttony. Alcoholism. Take your pick. At the end of the day, this is just a game with an age restriction rating. If you are of the proper age to be playing, it is hoped you can see the difference between a serious real-life issue and a game. It has even been suggested that doing some of these things in a game scenario can be an “outlet” that reduces the desire for doing them in real life.

kokiman.2364:

Wethospu.6437:

Games and especially gambling in them is still quite a new thing so it will take a while until older people catch up. I would expect to see laws in a few years.

I guess that’s why A.Net is so aggressive about it. They try to exploit it as long as there are no regulations. There is imo a good reason why gambling is restricted in so many countries

While I am not advocate of Black Lion Keys/Chests and the randomness (gambling) that is involved, I wouldn’t go to such links as to say Anet is exploiting something.

It is a small part of their business model and while you, and I, may have no appreciation for it have you considered what would be the topic if it didin’t exist? I will tell you…

“We need Chests that we can spend Gems to open!!!!”

Just because you and I don’t care for it does not mean others do not desire it. In fact, if they didn’t, it would have been removed long ago. The truth is keys sell and players buy them because they want to.

Let’s keep things in perspective.

Scipio.3204:

Gambling is serious business , it could cause addiction, you could lose a fortune etc. It is illegal in many country for anyone who isn’t 18 year old yet. Now, the law’s definiton of gambling in my country is: Every game counts as gambling, where the player in exchange of money or any valuable possessions, under certain circumstances he has a chance to win money, or other valuable prizes. Winning or losing depends solely or predominantly on luck.
Now we all know in the black lion chests you could win items of different value, and with the gem/gold conversion we can even tell how much does an item worth in real money, also it depends purely on luck what you win. Also black lion keys main source is the gem store, you can buy them with gold , but you also can buy them with real money .
I’m not in law school, therefore I don’t really know what fall under the category of gambling and I hope someone here knows. But for me the keys feels like they are gambling and at least should be restricted to 18+.

I don’t know what country your in but I can tell you as a gambling professional that black lion chests fail the most basic test to be considered gambling. The reason that black lion chests are not gambling is because you cannot legally sell anything you get from a black lion chest for money. Because you cannot win money, it is not gambling.

Danikat.8537:

sharkstein.2109:

I love these hollow debates about obvious topics that need no answer. Are BL boxes gambling? Yes, pretty much, regardless if you’ve spent real money or ingame money, both costed someone effort to get. OH EM GEE, it is illegal! If it was, Anet would not be doing it.

As I understand it the discussion is more: ‘since Black Lion Chests obviously are gambling why are they not affected by legislation that regulates gambling?’

Because black lion chests are not gambling.

Iason Evan.3806:

Pandaman.4758:

Reminds me of an old article on massively.

It’s gambling… except it’s worse.

You know what would be weird? If you walked into a casino and none of the machines or tables told you the odds. Everything else would be the same: the payout, the mechanics, the money required to play, but no odds. Just give us your money and hope you win but never have a clue how great or small your chances are of actually winning.

If I was in Vegas I would never play at that casino. Yuck. I used to buy BL Chests when they were in the 25-35 gold range for 5 keys. They are too expensive now and there is no way I would buy gems to maybe get 10 luck and some boosters. If I want boosters I will just buy them. Likewise, if I want BL weapons, I will buy them with gold I earn in game. That’s a really good analogy in that article.

Unless you gambler in British Columbia or Singapore, no slot machine tells you the odds of winning. In BC, it only tells you the Return to Player. In Singapore, it only gives the odds of the top 5 paying combinations and the lowest 5 paying combinations.

primary difference, and why it isn’t gambling, is that there is no legal way to convert in game currency or items to real world money. Without this component it is not really gambling, but simply playing a game for various non-monetary prizes with different levels of perceived worth. Now, if you could convert gems to $$ then yes, it would be gambling. As it is, it is not gambling.

I would consider it Gambling if you didn’t always win something. Gambling means you can lose. You can’t lost with a Blacklion Chest. Because the items inside of it are almost all account bound except a very few and as such only have subjective value. Also you always get at least 3 things out of it… There is never a chance of not getting anything.

Best way to get keys (if not the only way) without spending RL money is to do map completion. The question is, once you hit max level and map completion, what other ways are there to get them? Other than converting gold to gems that is.

Meh. It’s a kiddies lucky dip. I work in the horse racing industry so come see me at work and I’ll show you real gambling. And real gamblers.

Yeah it’s gambling except it doesn’t come with monetary rewards… just virtual ones.

Deamhan.9538:

Best way to get keys (if not the only way) without spending RL money is to do map completion. The question is, once you hit max level and map completion, what other ways are there to get them? Other than converting gold to gems that is.

Key farming is still possible. Either by using cooking to level, leveling by playing (an hour or less) or a mixture of the two (level to about level 7 or so then craft to level 10).

WoodenPotatoes has a new video on how to key farm with the NPE update.

I’ve done a number of key runs without crafting. It’s slower but still doable.

juno.1840:

Yeah it’s gambling except it doesn’t come with monetary rewards… just virtual ones.

If there’s no monetary rewards, it’s not gambling.

Scipio.3204:

Gambling is serious business , it could cause addiction, you could lose a fortune etc. It is illegal in many country for anyone who isn’t 18 year old yet. Now, the law’s definition of gambling in my country is: Every game counts as gambling, where the player in exchange of money or any valuable possessions, under certain circumstances he has a chance to win money, or other valuable prizes. Winning or losing depends solely or predominantly on luck.
Now we all know in the black lion chests you could win items of different value, and with the gem/gold conversion we can even tell how much does an item worth in real money, also it depends purely on luck what you win. Also black lion keys main source is the gem store, you can buy them with gold , but you also can buy them with real money .
I’m not in law school, therefore I don’t really know what fall under the category of gambling and I hope someone here knows. But for me the keys feels like they are gambling and at least should be restricted to 18+.

I think you miss one major point where this case will not hold up in court is that you agreed to the TOS. Which states that nothing you own that is tied to this game is yours all of it belongs to ANET, the only right you have is to play the game.

Also age restriction means nothing in a digital world, where you simply click yes and move on. Unless you enforce a overbearing rule like Korea and demand SSN / Official Government ID upon account creation (or bank accounts . . . .). But then even if you try to restrict the age down to a more “mature” audience. People will still gripe about it being a “gambling” problem (unless the rate of return for BLC is increased).

P.S

By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that you: 1)* are at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read*, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of yourself; 2) are at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom you are legally permitted to allow access to the Game; or 3) are a minor age 13-17 who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9© below. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT NCSOFT MAY, IN ITS SOLE AND ABSOLUTE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3© RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE.

I think everyone has clicked a button and agreed to this.

Scipio.3204:

But for me the keys feels like they are gambling and at least should be restricted to 18+.

Everyone who has a credit card in order to pay for gems, is supposed to be 18+

Legally, I don’t think it will hold up in court because when a player purchases gems, what they are getting are the GEMS themselves. What the player then chooses to spend those gems on is up to them. Black Lion Chests are only one option; they could spend them on bank slots, skins, and other items that don’t involve any RNG whatsoever. Furthermore, Black Lion Chests always give you SOMETHING. It’s not like standard gambling where there’s a chance you get zilch.

But do I think it’s morally grey? Yes, because these sorts of items tend to prey on players with addictive personalities or poor self-control. If you work in the gambling industry, you see people every day who come in and blow their life savings or their children’s college funds. I don’t think it’s much different with “whales” who spend thousands of dollars on microtransactions in games.

Every BL chest opened yields a reward.

Opening a BL chest has a 100% chance to provide a reward.

Every time one spends money to open a BL chest one is 100% guaranteed to receive a return for that expense.

As long as that fact remains true Anet is unlikely to run into significant problems.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Nope it’s not any different. At one point they had 3D cards, but you wouldn’t necessarily get one in every pack. You only had a chance to get the 3D card.

And getting the cards everyone had was pretty much worthless. I mean it’s not like you can sell Skip Jutze to anyone. It was a card no one cared about.

There’s really nothing in the BLTC that’s actually worthless. Transmuation charges aren’t worthless. Leveling scrolls aren’t worthless. Even when essences of luck where in teh chest, they weren’t worthless unless you happened to have 300 luck already (which very very few people do).

I disagree. Baseball card packs contained cards no matter what they worth. When you bought a pack, there was no chance that you got chewing gums ,candy(These aren’t worthless either) or other small things instead of a card you didn’t intend to buy, and there was no case you didn’t get any card at all.

What’s the difference between a worthless baseball card and a worthless booster. The list of stuff you get is known in both cases.

In both cases there’s a list of things you can get and in both cases what you get is random. If you buy a back of baseball cards and get nothing good, you feel ripped off in the same way.

It’s gambling because you’re paying money to get the one thing you want, not the five cards you don’t care about. You’re taking a chance that spending that money will get you what you want, when it’s likely that spending that money won’t.

There’s no real way to say it’s not gambling. You want something. You’re spending money on it. And you might not get it.

I’m going to quote my parents on this, and probably plenty of other adults:

“Never gamble with something you can’t afford losing.”

Really wish more people learned this lesson. Also really wish games of pure chance got less rewards than games of skill, but so long as the States continue their own “idiot tax” (read: lottery tickets) then I guess I’m in the minority

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Scipio.3204:

But for me the keys feels like they are gambling and at least should be restricted to 18+.

Everyone who has a credit card in order to pay for gems, is supposed to be 18+

I just want to point out that in many places you can walk into a GameStop, Target, or Best Buy and pay cash for gem cards. No credit card required at all.