Guild Wars 2

And the new page bug appears again. Seriously ANet, do something about this.

Buying keys is very much like buying baseball cards or MTG booster packs. The BL chests are guaranteed to contain virtual “goods,” with no guarantee of what those virtual goods will be. There is no possibility of getting nothing. Sorry, you cannot call one virtual gewgaw “something” and another one “nothing” because you don’t want the second one. This is functionally identical to a MTG pack, except that the MTG packs can contain items that can be sold and BLC’s don’t. You might make the case that baseball cards and MTG packs are gambling, however, the companies that sell them get around this because the cards are ostensibly to play a game, and the value is consumer generated.

None of the BL chest items has a real world value. Most of the items cannot be traded. Some can be traded (well, at least indirectly). The only way to garner any RL value is against the ToS. BL Chests fail the litmus test to be gambling (noun).

However, players who use them are gambling (verb). They are taking a chance. It’s a fine point, but if you think about it, it’s correct.

Of course, spending RL money on any virtual goods is really a waste of money. If it makes you happy, then it’s your money to waste. However, spending RL money for a (small) chance at a virtual gewgaw seems to me to be beyond wasting money.

Is selling such things reprehensible? Well, I certainly think so. Unfortunately, what it would take for companies to stop doing so involves self control on the part of consumers. Good luck with that.

Not gambling as much as stupidity, the threads are here to support this but people don’t listen.

Black Lion Chests are not gambling in both the legal and technical sense since you are guaranteed a payout, no if’s, and’s or buts about it. There shouldn’t or wouldn’t even be a discussion about this if people would common sense and simple logic, but I think that doesn’t exist in the world anymore.

Ashen.2907:

Every BL chest opened yields a reward.

Opening a BL chest has a 100% chance to provide a reward.

Every time one spends money to open a BL chest one is 100% guaranteed to receive a return for that expense.

As long as that fact remains true Anet is unlikely to run into significant problems.

That fact has nothing to do with opening BLC chests isn’t gambling. Even if half of the chests opened contained nothing, it still wouldn’t be gambling. Because in reality, there are no chests, and the chests contain no prizes. You cannot legally sell anything you get from a BLC,.

It would be obvious to people that BLCs are not gambling if you quit trying to redefine what gambling is. Why do you folks insists on redefining what gambling is when nations all over the world have gone through great pains to define it?

From my understanding it’s only gambling if there is a chance of you not getting anything. Now if keys are worth it is something entirely different.

No, gambling is gambling so long as you can walk away with less than you spent. Now you could argue that the value of all things is subjective, and a pile of temporary boosts might be “worth” the cost of a key, but I doubt most people would buy keys if you could ONLY get a handful of boosts, they do so on the hope that they will get the big prizes.

Do the math. One should ALWAYS atleast recoup 3/4th gem value of the BL key. I would put 100% but i dont like 100% so I dropped it down to 75%.

That argument only works if you can then sell back those boosts for the full list value. I personally would never pay 22g to buy ONE +50%MF booster when and Omnomberry Bar only costs 4s. Out of curiosity, if they did allow you to list boosters on the TP and let the market determine the value, what sort of price do you believe you could get them for?

Boosts are pure consolation prizes, nothing more.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Buying keys is very much like buying baseball cards or MTG booster packs. The BL chests are guaranteed to contain virtual “goods,” with no guarantee of what those virtual goods will be. There is no possibility of getting nothing. Sorry, you cannot call one virtual gewgaw “something” and another one “nothing” because you don’t want the second one. This is functionally identical to a MTG pack, except that the MTG packs can contain items that can be sold and BLC’s don’t. You might make the case that baseball cards and MTG packs are gambling, however, the companies that sell them get around this because the cards are ostensibly to play a game, and the value is consumer generated.

Well, not really . . . see, MTG packs contain cards which may possibly be something you can sell. More often than not, they’re “trade bait” and aren’t all that good but people still want them for collections. I know roughly . . . every third rare is one which is worth money, while the Mythic Rares (ohgodwhy….) . . . are very rarely worth money to a reseller no matter what a price guide tells you.

Basically, it’s exactly like baseball cards, only there’s a game attached – there are a lot of cards and maybe something like 10% of any given set are what people want so they can play with them or try to speculate on price or future metagame uses.

MTG’s really weird, in that they also knowingly print “junk rares” which they know are only theoretically useful in some situation . . . but largely don’t have a use. The designers admit to it, freely, and that they place most of the cards they want people to really be using in the lower two rarities so there’s a chance of getting enough to play with.

Oh, final note – if you buy the online game’s packs? You don’t even have the option of selling them, I think it was only after the game had been out for a while you could trade virtual cards. So you couldn’t exchange them for money if you didn’t want them.

(Again, not that you’d have a lot of luck just walking into a store with any given one card and walking out with what it’s worth.)

Is selling such things reprehensible? Well, I certainly think so. Unfortunately, what it would take for companies to stop doing so involves self control on the part of consumers. Good luck with that.

I think the idea is less reprehensible than the broad spectrum of cool skins you can only get with Claim Tickets, which are RNG’d out of the chests. I really think that’s a worse problem than chests which don’t give anything other than neat extras.

Zaklex.6308:

Black Lion Chests are not gambling in both the legal and technical sense since you are guaranteed a payout, no if’s, and’s or buts about it. There shouldn’t or wouldn’t even be a discussion about this if people would common sense and simple logic, but I think that doesn’t exist in the world anymore.

While I agree it’s not gambling in the legal sense, the existence of a payout (or lack thereof) is not what defines gambling as an action; it’s the act of taking a chance for a desired outcome that makes something gambling.

Anyone who opens a BLC with no expectation of results is not gambling, but anyone who buys a pack (or packs) of keys with the hope of getting tickets, contracts, or any other items unique to BLCs is, by definition and common sense, gambling.

DarcShriek.5829:

It would be obvious to people that BLCs are not gambling if you quit trying to redefine what gambling is. Why do you folks insists on redefining what gambling is when nations all over the world have gone through great pains to define it?

Because there’s more than one way to define gambling.

Let’s say that you’re on a diet, but you like the occasional extra treat for lunch. So, you make a deal with yourself. Every morning, you roll a six-sided dice. If you roll a 6, you add a cookie or small candy bar to your lunch. But if you roll a 1, you skip your normal breakfast and drink a “meal replacement shake” instead.

Is this gambling? On a personal level, yes. On a legal level, no.

Now, let’s say that you’re in a casino for the buffet, and you’ve waiting for your friends. You have some spare coins in your pocket, so you go wandering around until you find the nickel slots. Seeing five not in use, you drop a nickel in each and quickly pull the levers on all five just to see them all going at once.

Is this gambling? On a personal level, no. You’re just paying $.25 to get a silly sound and light show. On a legal level, yes.

Our problem here is getting to understand that this is gambling on a personal level, not a legal level.

disneyrich.3901:

Just wanted to add another point to consider. I won’t go into all the comments as some have made good observations into what counts for gambling, vs what is essentially a raffle ticket for some unknown prizes.

As Vayne said, I also used to buy cards. You are buying a pack of unknown cards. Quid pro quo. You get this for that. Yes when you get 10 cards you already have, it blows. But it works as it gets you to buy more.

You buy a key you will get 3 of something . Now you may not like or need what drops, but that doesn’t matter. Money(key) for 3 things.

I was a casino dealer, and again not to go into to many details about the job, butI would consider that the very definition of gambling. You have a very very very good chance of losing all your money with nothing to show for it. You just gave the casino $5000 for the ‘chance’ to win more. You lost, you got kicked in the kittens, and you go home with nothing. (Usually blaming the dealer as if we made you plop your money on the table lol ) Well, they may give you a free dinner, but it is not worth $5000.

Gambling in this game would be, to me, is you buy a key , open a chest, and you get squat for it. But since that doesn’t happen, you are guaranteed 3 items from a pool of items. Same as buying cards.

Thanks for reading.

Also just saw Palador post after I did mine! yeah for 2 minds thinking of how casinos handle gambling!

Edit..ugh I guess I edited it and it got reposted. So I deleted the original and left edited post

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

Well, not really . . . see, MTG packs contain cards which may possibly be something you can sell. More often than not, they’re “trade bait” and aren’t all that good but people still want them for collections. I know roughly . . . every third rare is one which is worth money, while the Mythic Rares (ohgodwhy….) . . . are very rarely worth money to a reseller no matter what a price guide tells you.

Basically, it’s exactly like baseball cards, only there’s a game attached – there are a lot of cards and maybe something like 10% of any given set are what people want so they can play with them or try to speculate on price or future metagame uses.

MTG’s really weird, in that they also knowingly print “junk rares” which they know are only theoretically useful in some situation . . . but largely don’t have a use. The designers admit to it, freely, and that they place most of the cards they want people to really be using in the lower two rarities so there’s a chance of getting enough to play with.

Oh, final note – if you buy the online game’s packs? You don’t even have the option of selling them, I think it was only after the game had been out for a while you could trade virtual cards. So you couldn’t exchange them for money if you didn’t want them.

(Again, not that you’d have a lot of luck just walking into a store with any given one card and walking out with what it’s worth.)

However, once you strip away all the frills, you’re left with, “Company A offers to sell you Random Pack X. Random Pack X contains Y, with Y representing a range of items. Some items are more rare than others.”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

I think the idea is less reprehensible than the broad spectrum of cool skins you can only get with Claim Tickets, which are RNG’d out of the chests. I really think that’s a worse problem than chests which don’t give anything other than neat extras.

It’s a monetizing scheme designed to pander to human weakness. Chests with “stuff” that no one wants or cares about are not going to generate a lot of revenue. Think about this. A lot of the “neat extras” are available for purchase directly, where you know what you’re paying for. Without those ticket scraps (or whatever other wow factor items chests might be stocked with), chest monetizing is not worth the resources to implement it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, once you strip away all the frills, you’re left with, “Company A offers to sell you Random Pack X. Random Pack X contains Y, with Y representing a range of items. Some items are more rare than others.”

The secondary market for MTG is not “the frills” it is, bluntly, “quite a bit of the strategy of the deck-building angle of the game”. There are reasons people don’t shell out $1k+ for a playset of the ancient-era dual lands when they can shell out a fraction of it for something else with mild drawbacks and plan around it.

There is barely a secondary market for most things out of the Black Lion Chests, because they account-bind on acquire. The really useful stuff is worthless, while the weapon skins and permanent contracts are where you can make bank. . . . which is pretty worthless as an item compared to things like the Crafting Booster (oh how much that saved me when doing work on those last tiers…)

It’s a monetizing scheme designed to pander to human weakness. Chests with “stuff” that no one wants or cares about are not going to generate a lot of revenue. Think about this. A lot of the “neat extras” are available for purchase directly, where you know what you’re paying for. Without those ticket scraps (or whatever other wow factor items chests might be stocked with), chest monetizing is not worth the resources to implement it.

I think about it a lot. You’ll find I said that’s really the only part I find myself objecting to even a little. But it’s not really enough to get upset about . . . until they put out exactly as much through those tickets as they do in the other content updates.

It would be the only think I’d tweak about the chests – a means of acquiring those skins as account-bound items/unlocks with perhaps a lesser rarity or something inconsequential.

They did it for the SAB weapons.

I guess in a way you could call Black Lion keys a form of gambling. What makes it technically not gambling, though, is that you don’t have to spend any money or anything valuable to access keys. I personally have never purchased gems to open a chest, I did key running. Key running is still an option if you want a lot of keys and don’t want to pay for them, it’s only about 2 minutes longer now post update, but certainly still viable.

DarcShriek.5829:

Ashen.2907:

Every BL chest opened yields a reward.

Opening a BL chest has a 100% chance to provide a reward.

Every time one spends money to open a BL chest one is 100% guaranteed to receive a return for that expense.

As long as that fact remains true Anet is unlikely to run into significant problems.

That fact has nothing to do with opening BLC chests isn’t gambling. Even if half of the chests opened contained nothing, it still wouldn’t be gambling. Because in reality, there are no chests, and the chests contain no prizes. You cannot legally sell anything you get from a BLC,.

It would be obvious to people that BLCs are not gambling if you quit trying to redefine what gambling is. Why do you folks insists on redefining what gambling is when nations all over the world have gone through great pains to define it?

Nations can decide on a definition of a term for use in their legal systems but the word has a definition independent of, and often predating, that created for use in the legal system.

For example the Oxford English dictionary lists your, “for money,” definition as one of several correct definitions of the term.

Edit: Both the Merriam Webster’s and Cambridge dictionaries agree with the Oxford English dictionary on this matter. Money need not be involved for something to be gambling.

Pandaman.4758:

Zaklex.6308:

Black Lion Chests are not gambling in both the legal and technical sense since you are guaranteed a payout, no if’s, and’s or buts about it. There shouldn’t or wouldn’t even be a discussion about this if people would common sense and simple logic, but I think that doesn’t exist in the world anymore.

While I agree it’s not gambling in the legal sense, the existence of a payout (or lack thereof) is not what defines gambling as an action; it’s the act of taking a chance for a desired outcome that makes something gambling.

Anyone who opens a BLC with no expectation of results is not gambling, but anyone who buys a pack (or packs) of keys with the hope of getting tickets, contracts, or any other items unique to BLCs is, by definition and common sense, gambling.

Yes, but the OP said *Black Lion Chests count as Gambling_, emphasis mine, so in this case, Black Lion Chests in of themselves do not count as gambling. The act of buying keys and hoping to get something good is gambling on the part of the key purchaser, but the chests themselves(which are virtual and contain virtual goods that belong to A.net) are not gambling. A minor distinction, but an accurate one._*

If BLC’s were legally classed as gambling, every single MMORPG on the market that uses chance based items (ie, practically all of them) would be regulated as such. Why is this still being debated?

I think the bottom line is: Legally, it’s not gambling.

Psychologically, it most definitely is – no denying it.

That it is basically 100% like gambling to your brain makes it ethically questionable. But as long as the designers can tell themselves you aren’t gambling away all of your earnings and going broke, they can probably sleep at night.

You have to wonder about the kind of people who run casinos and just how morally bankrupt they are – if they spend all of their time justifying the damage they’re enabling and encouraging people to inflict on themselves.

I rofled at OP and some other people.

tyvm

I love these threads.. what it really says is op failed to understand the rules of a the game of chance.

I do not consider BLC’s to be gambling simply by the virtue that your money you spend on the key guarantees you a reward from the chest.. .. just cos its not the shiny you wanted doesn’t mean you did not get something from it.

There are simple considerations everyone must make when purchasing an item controlled within an RNG mechanic –
1 – Understand that any game of chance has 2 outcomes and you might not like one of them.
2 – Only spend money on a game of chance if you can afford to not get what you really want out of it.

Those things aside though BLC’S have a win-win element..
You have a chance to come away with something you either did or didn’t want, but at the same time have absolutely no chance of coming away empty handed.

To clarify this matter.

Such rng boxes are in any MMO game and majority of them are in shops and are able to obtained only via shop where not always you can exchange ingame currency for shop currency.

Why they’re not called gambling/hazzard?
Because they’re kind of Lottery thing where despite the fact that you’ll purchase it, you’ll always receive something with significant value.

If it comes to Gw2.
You cannot grade them as gambling/hazzard thing because

• you can obtain keys to open chest in game
• you can exchange in game currency for shop currency and therefore purchase them
• each opened box always give you 3 random items

Compared to other games with different kind of models, Gw2 is the most fair one which has so far like, the lowest amount of RNG involved.

As summary
This game cannot have gambling/hazzard stuff in it because if it would have, then it couldn’t be rated as PEGI 12 and wouldn’t be accessible from many countries.

That applies to all games with similar boxes.

Crovax.7854:

From my understanding it’s only gambling if there is a chance of you not getting anything.

Legally, in USA, yeah. Giving a reward (just not the reward) to everyone is one of the ways you can sidestep the law here. The other is when you don’t assign any value to the rewards, and let the people do it on their own (the trading cards case). Most countries have at least tried to close the first loophole, the second still remains though. With BLTC, Anet uses both (and a third one – you don’t buy chests,or even keys for chests – you buy gems).

So, while, in the end, it indeed operates as gambling in the psychological and monetary sense, and is a gambling in the general meaning of the word, legally it’s not and so Anet can profit from it (as well as exploit minors).

Honestly, you didn’t expect business to adhere to any moral standarts that are not mandated by law, did you?

Tao.5096:

This game cannot have gambling/hazzard stuff in it because if it would have, then it couldn’t be rated as PEGI 12 and wouldn’t be accessible from many countries.

PEGI isn’t responsible for determining what is considered gambling, they only look at the games, see what fit legal definitions, and label it appropriately; so saying PEGI hasn’t declared GW2 contains gambling only reaffirms the fact that lockboxes isn’t considered gambling in Europe yet (“yet” because there have been no officially announced investigation or ruling in Europe regarding lockboxes).

Until there comes a time that the EU/US takes a look at lockboxes and makes an official ruling, lockboxes exist in a legal grey area of not being “gambling” by dint of lawmakers being ignorant of them.

However in Japan and Singapore they are illegal.

lawman and taxman havent yet cought up with these practices in MMOs.

They will eventually.

I’m wondering what the OPs point in posting this is.

If you want the game of GW2 banned in your country, continue pursuit of this line of discussion as the BL chest system is not going to be altered to meet one countries laws (unless they are US Law or possibly Korean).

True, it’s far better to lobby for a law change in US or EU.

As long as the minimum reward in the Chest is worth more in gems than the gem cost of chests it is not gambling.
You are paying for a virtual item when u buy a BL key. The virtual item is just transforming into another virtual item. Everything is just pixels…..It will be very hard to call this gambling. Anet is probably paying Sales Tax or Service Tax. So please don’t think that any tax is being avoided here.

Who brought up this topic -__- ? probably someone from the IRS

yawn

I think it was Vayne that compared BLCs to baseball cards? I personally feel it’s an apt comparison and the same general premise. If BLCs are gambling, then by all definitions, so is purchasing a magic the gathering booster pack. Really, if you look at it, it really is the same thing. You invest a token amount of money in the hopes of getting something good in return. The only difference between a black lion ticket and a valuable baseball card or mtg card is the real world value. You can sell the cards, you can’t (theoretically) sell that black lion ticket for real world money.

It’s not gambling as you’re paying real world cash for a game currency. Also, you can’t transfer game currency back to cash (at least not legitly) so it doesn’t qualify in that regard either.

You cannot fail at Black Lion Chests.

You can only fail to get the item you personally want.

The first slot of the chest returns a random booster that is at or above the value of the gems you spent, so technically there is no -fail- state where you would receive ‘no’ item or an item that was ‘less’ than the value you paid.

It’s like paying for a grab bag. you dont know whats in it, but the price of the items is listed on the face of the bag. Whether or not you personally value the items as such… well, that’s up to you.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

yawn

I think it was Vayne that compared BLCs to baseball cards? I personally feel it’s an apt comparison and the same general premise. If BLCs are gambling, then by all definitions, so is purchasing a magic the gathering booster pack. Really, if you look at it, it really is the same thing. You invest a token amount of money in the hopes of getting something good in return. The only difference between a black lion ticket and a valuable baseball card or mtg card is the real world value. You can sell the cards, you can’t (theoretically) sell that black lion ticket for real world money.

In my country TCGs are listed in same category as casino games and lottery: luck based games. And as such had same tax attached.

So yeah, you could earn decent student pocket money for selling those

And yes, its gambling, dont try to passit as something else, using loopholes is using loopholes.

On account of Anet…well…everybody is doing it so i dont see a problem with it. It would be different if there was some prederence or such.

MikaHR.1978:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

yawn

I think it was Vayne that compared BLCs to baseball cards? I personally feel it’s an apt comparison and the same general premise. If BLCs are gambling, then by all definitions, so is purchasing a magic the gathering booster pack. Really, if you look at it, it really is the same thing. You invest a token amount of money in the hopes of getting something good in return. The only difference between a black lion ticket and a valuable baseball card or mtg card is the real world value. You can sell the cards, you can’t (theoretically) sell that black lion ticket for real world money.

In my country TCGs are listed in same category as casino games and lottery: luck based games. And as such had same tax attached.

So yeah, you could earn decent student pocket money for selling those

And yes, its gambling, dont try to passit as something else, using loopholes is using loopholes.

On account of Anet…well…everybody is doing it so i dont see a problem with it. It would be different if there was some prederence or such.

So someone buying gems, converting them to gold, and then buying loot bags is gambling?

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Nope it’s not any different. At one point they had 3D cards, but you wouldn’t necessarily get one in every pack. You only had a chance to get the 3D card.

And getting the cards everyone had was pretty much worthless. I mean it’s not like you can sell Skip Jutze to anyone. It was a card no one cared about.

There’s really nothing in the BLTC that’s actually worthless. Transmuation charges aren’t worthless. Leveling scrolls aren’t worthless. Even when essences of luck where in teh chest, they weren’t worthless unless you happened to have 300 luck already (which very very few people do).

I disagree. Baseball card packs contained cards no matter what they worth. When you bought a pack, there was no chance that you got chewing gums ,candy(These aren’t worthless either) or other small things instead of a card you didn’t intend to buy, and there was no case you didn’t get any card at all.

I read this and find it a completely ignorant argument. You buy BL Keys and open a chest, and do you only expect BL Claim tickets or Permanent Contracts? Anet regularly announce changes to what is inside the BL chest and there is a wiki that has a pretty good database of what you could get out of it. You’re train of thought is that since the pack of BASEBALL cards has a BASEBALL CARD label, people would not be confused by what they can get from it, and gamers are completely ignorant and would not know what they could get from a BL chest, because it’s called a Black Lion Chest and not “Chest that contains three of the following items: Boosters, Black Lion Claim tickets, Black Lion Claim ticket Scraps, Bank Access Express, Instant Repair Canister, Merchant Express, Revive Orb, Self-Style Hair Kit, Total Makeover Kit, Trading Post Express, Transmutation Charge, Custom Arena Time Token, Black Lion Chest Key, Black Lion Salvage Kit, Box o’ Fun, Communal Boost Bonfire, Dye Pack, Metabolic Primer, Tome of Knowledge, Unidentified Dye, Flame Dye Kit, Frost Dye Kit, Deathly Dye Kit, Toxic Dye Kit, Metallurgic Dye Kit, Lion’s Arch Survivors Dye Kit, Lion’s Arch Commemorative Dye Kit, Heavy Crafting Bag, Large Crafting Bag, Medium Crafting Bag, Utility Primer, Pink Quaggan Backpack Set, Quaggan Killer Whale Backpack Set, Tiger Charr Backpack Set, Cheetah Charr Backpack Set, Plush Tybalt Backpack Set, Mini Caithe, Mini Holographic Scarlet, Mini Mai Trin, Mini Marjory Delaqua, Minis 3-Pack, Mystery Tonic, Unopened Beast Endless Mystery Tonic, Unopened Forest Endless Mystery Tonic, Unopened Furniture Endless Mystery Tonic, Endless Monkey King Tonic, Permanent Bank Access Contract, Permanent Black Lion Merchant Contract, Permanent Trading Post Express Contract, Permanent Hair Stylist Contract.”

Keiel.7489:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Nope it’s not any different. At one point they had 3D cards, but you wouldn’t necessarily get one in every pack. You only had a chance to get the 3D card.

And getting the cards everyone had was pretty much worthless. I mean it’s not like you can sell Skip Jutze to anyone. It was a card no one cared about.

There’s really nothing in the BLTC that’s actually worthless. Transmuation charges aren’t worthless. Leveling scrolls aren’t worthless. Even when essences of luck where in teh chest, they weren’t worthless unless you happened to have 300 luck already (which very very few people do).

I disagree. Baseball card packs contained cards no matter what they worth. When you bought a pack, there was no chance that you got chewing gums ,candy(These aren’t worthless either) or other small things instead of a card you didn’t intend to buy, and there was no case you didn’t get any card at all.

I read this and find it a completely ignorant argument. You buy BL Keys and open a chest, and do you only expect BL Claim tickets or Permanent Contracts? Anet regularly announce changes to what is inside the BL chest and there is a wiki that has a pretty good database of what you could get out of it. You’re train of thought is that since the pack of BASEBALL cards has a BASEBALL CARD label, people would not be confused by what they can get from it, and gamers are completely ignorant and would not know what they could get from a BL chest, because it’s called a Black Lion Chest and not “Chest that contains three of the following items: Boosters, Black Lion Claim tickets, Black Lion Claim ticket Scraps, Bank Access Express, Instant Repair Canister, Merchant Express, Revive Orb, Self-Style Hair Kit, Total Makeover Kit, Trading Post Express, Transmutation Charge, Custom Arena Time Token, Black Lion Chest Key, Black Lion Salvage Kit, Box o’ Fun, Communal Boost Bonfire, Dye Pack, Metabolic Primer, Tome of Knowledge, Unidentified Dye, Flame Dye Kit, Frost Dye Kit, Deathly Dye Kit, Toxic Dye Kit, Metallurgic Dye Kit, Lion’s Arch Survivors Dye Kit, Lion’s Arch Commemorative Dye Kit, Heavy Crafting Bag, Large Crafting Bag, Medium Crafting Bag, Utility Primer, Pink Quaggan Backpack Set, Quaggan Killer Whale Backpack Set, Tiger Charr Backpack Set, Cheetah Charr Backpack Set, Plush Tybalt Backpack Set, Mini Caithe, Mini Holographic Scarlet, Mini Mai Trin, Mini Marjory Delaqua, Minis 3-Pack, Mystery Tonic, Unopened Beast Endless Mystery Tonic, Unopened Forest Endless Mystery Tonic, Unopened Furniture Endless Mystery Tonic, Endless Monkey King Tonic, Permanent Bank Access Contract, Permanent Black Lion Merchant Contract, Permanent Trading Post Express Contract, Permanent Hair Stylist Contract.”

I am thinking you have really missed the point, but to make it simpler..
Do you think that BLC are a form of gambling just because you might not get what you want?
ANET can’t be held responsible for peoples inability to handle disappointment especially as both the BL Key and BL Chest descriptions quite clearly state the fact that the end result is random .. the only thing that is absolute is the fact you get 3 items for the purchase, all of which hold value in some way shape or form.

What is ignorant is a players decision to purchase keys without taking the time to read the item description and then feeling hard done by when they don’t get what they want. In that respect the baseball card analogy is in fact quite relevant because your guaranteed to get baseball cards and a stick of gum (at least that’s what we used to get with out footy cards years ago )

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

If BLCs are gambling, then by all definitions, so is purchasing a magic the gathering booster pack. Really, if you look at it, it really is the same thing.

Yes, it is. And card booster packs indeed operate on the same premises as gambling – they just use law loopholes in order to boost sales by hooking up individuals that hope that “this time they will win the big one”. And part of their target group is minors.

Yes, i hope that eventually this sale practice will get regulated as strongly as it should be. Even if i don’t hold much hope it will happen anytime soon.

Ayrilana.1396:

So someone buying gems, converting them to gold, and then buying loot bags is gambling?

Depends. If he buys one lootbag and hopes for a lodestone drop, then he is. Most of the bag buyers however are quite aware of the chances, and do not go for “the big one”. They buy a ton of bags trusting in statistics. They will generally get more than they have put into it – and that’s the main difference.

When you have doubts whether something is gambling or not, ask yourself how the average person is likely to profit on it. If the answer is “unlikely” (or worse), then it is probably gambling.

The phrase “Never bet against the house” comes to mind. When I think about Black Lion Chest.

The odds for this type of RNG are never in your favor.

Astralporing.1957:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

If BLCs are gambling, then by all definitions, so is purchasing a magic the gathering booster pack. Really, if you look at it, it really is the same thing.

Yes, it is. And card booster packs indeed operate on the same premises as gambling – they just use law loopholes in order to boost sales by hooking up individuals that hope that “this time they will win the big one”. And part of their target group is minors.

Yes, i hope that eventually this sale practice will get regulated as strongly as it should be. Even if i don’t hold much hope it will happen anytime soon.

Ayrilana.1396:

So someone buying gems, converting them to gold, and then buying loot bags is gambling?

Depends. If he buys one lootbag and hopes for a lodestone drop, then he is. Most of the bag buyers however are quite aware of the chances, and do not go for “the big one”. They buy a ton of bags trusting in statistics. They will generally get more than they have put into it – and that’s the main difference.

When you have doubts whether something is gambling or not, ask yourself how the average person is likely to profit on it. If the answer is “unlikely” (or worse), then it is probably gambling.

Provide sources on how it’s gambling and how it’s a loophole in the law. What I’m seeing is a lot of people don’t understand what gambling is and then resort to calling the very reasons that make it not gambling as loopholes. Kind of flawed logic there.

MikaHR.1978:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

yawn

I think it was Vayne that compared BLCs to baseball cards? I personally feel it’s an apt comparison and the same general premise. If BLCs are gambling, then by all definitions, so is purchasing a magic the gathering booster pack. Really, if you look at it, it really is the same thing. You invest a token amount of money in the hopes of getting something good in return. The only difference between a black lion ticket and a valuable baseball card or mtg card is the real world value. You can sell the cards, you can’t (theoretically) sell that black lion ticket for real world money.

In my country TCGs are listed in same category as casino games and lottery: luck based games. And as such had same tax attached.

So yeah, you could earn decent student pocket money for selling those

And yes, its gambling, dont try to passit as something else, using loopholes is using loopholes.

On account of Anet…well…everybody is doing it so i dont see a problem with it. It would be different if there was some prederence or such.

What country are you from?

I’m not strictly saying its not gambling. By the strict definition of the term, it is. “take risky action in the hope of a desired result.” You’re taking a risk, and hoping for a specific outcome. However, it’s not a monetary outcome, which is why it’s not really looked at (usually) in the same way as lotto cards or going to a casino. There is a difference.

Astralporing.1957:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

If BLCs are gambling, then by all definitions, so is purchasing a magic the gathering booster pack. Really, if you look at it, it really is the same thing.

Yes, it is. And card booster packs indeed operate on the same premises as gambling – they just use law loopholes in order to boost sales by hooking up individuals that hope that “this time they will win the big one”. And part of their target group is minors.

Yes, i hope that eventually this sale practice will get regulated as strongly as it should be. Even if i don’t hold much hope it will happen anytime soon.

I wasn’t saying that it wasn’t “technically”. As above, if you apply the strictest definition of the word, yes, it is gambling. However certain types aren’t regulated because they aren’t ‘on par’ with gambling as it pertains to horse/dog racing, casinos, and state lotteries.

Buying a pack of mtg cards really isn’t different than buying a lotto ticket in that they are both risky and both hold the hope of an expected reward. In that you are correct, Astral. The difference between a lotto card though, is a hard cash pay out if you win. An MTG card on the other hand, even if you get a super rare one you have to still find a buyer for it at the price you want, which can sometimes be difficult. It’s not a direct cash payout. Technically the mtg card has no true monetary value, unlike that winning lottery card.

That’s the defining difference.

If we really want to get technical, everything we do is gambling. Simply driving to work is a gamble. Attending school is a gamble. Hell, making dinner is a gamble. They are typically low risk gambles, but they are still technically gambling. Just depends on how strict you want to be with the definition of the word.

Quick general reminder: We’re not all in the same country and legal definitions of gambling and the laws that regulate it are not the same world-wide.

Therefore it’s not possible to simply talk about ‘the law’ or ‘a legal loophole’ or whatever and assume everyone reading your post will know what you mean. A loophole in one country’s law might be explicitly permitted in another and banned completely in a 3rd.

Without explaining what country (or countries) you’re talking about or what exactly their laws say your post is fairly meaningless.

If you’re explaining why BLCs are/should not be allowed you need to remember your reasons will only apply to one country. You can be completely correct, but someone else saying ‘the law’ says something different and they should not be allowed (or should be age restricted) could also be completely right.

MikaHR.1978:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

yawn

I think it was Vayne that compared BLCs to baseball cards? I personally feel it’s an apt comparison and the same general premise. If BLCs are gambling, then by all definitions, so is purchasing a magic the gathering booster pack. Really, if you look at it, it really is the same thing. You invest a token amount of money in the hopes of getting something good in return. The only difference between a black lion ticket and a valuable baseball card or mtg card is the real world value. You can sell the cards, you can’t (theoretically) sell that black lion ticket for real world money.

In my country TCGs are listed in same category as casino games and lottery: luck based games. And as such had same tax attached.

So yeah, you could earn decent student pocket money for selling those

And yes, its gambling, dont try to passit as something else, using loopholes is using loopholes.

On account of Anet…well…everybody is doing it so i dont see a problem with it. It would be different if there was some prederence or such.

You just brought my brain to a screeching halt since that puts MTG under “gambling”. When it’s really more about playing the primary and secondary markets wisely – buy a set amount of a new set, then use THAT to trade-bait your way to what you want or buy single cards off secondary sellers.

If you want to get technical about gambling you could argue that putting a quarter in the type of gumball dispenser that gives out a random child’s toy is gambling, since you are putting in real money and getting a variable result. They even use words that indicate this, “……Vending machine toys are a classic way for vending route owners to entice new customers and their quarters with multiple repeat purchases to try to get the toy capsule of their choice….”

While I’m not a big fan of the black lion chests and how they work, they aren’t doing anything that isn’t a common and accepted practice in our culture.

I believe the issue with US State and Federal Laws is the inability to turn the “winnings” in to actual cash or RL assets (thru Anet supported means).

Scipio.3204:

snip

GW2 BL key and BL chest doesn’t fall under that gamble definition for two reasons.
1 – You can only buy the BL key with real money, and that item is a 100% chance of opening the BL chest, no gamble at all.
2 – BL chest is what may confuse about gambling laws but that item can’t revenue real life money, also the value of the item it gives is subjective to the current in-game market, but still it is 100% of chance of getting a reward.