Guild Wars 2

Lets do some math based on samples from gw2wiki (which are not very good samples i realize, but other websites have given similar percentages). The drop rate for ticket scraps is 30%, the drop rate for tickets is 2%. At 10 scraps per ticket this is either a 50% cumulative drop rate on scraps, or a 5% drop rate on tickets. So now lets assume someone wants to acquire a 5 ticket item. 5 tickets at a 5% drop rate is 20×5 = 100 keys. 100 keys at 25keys/2100 gems is 8400 gems. 8400 gems at 80 gems per dollar is $105. This is of course on average.

tl;dr: 1, 5 ticket weapon skin = $105, 1, 1 ticket weapon skin = $21

That is incredibly rediculous.

This is why most people buy weapons when they are on sale for 1 ticket, which is how every weapon set is released at the start. It’s cheaper to just farm gold and buy the weapons off the TP though.

I hate to do this but lets compare this to league of legends. When pulsefire ezreal came out he was around $25 dollars. Lets compare the work put into pulsefire ezreal compared to a ticket weapon. Ticket weapons have special effects, some have sound effects. Pulsefire ezreal has completely redone sounds, all of his abilities have been reworked visually, he has 3 stages where he changes visually. Does 20 dollars sound like a reasonable price point when compared to pulsefire ezreal?

Vicissitude.6845:

Lets do some math based on samples from gw2wiki (which are not very good samples i realize, but other websites have given similar percentages). The drop rate for ticket scraps is 30%, the drop rate for tickets is 2%. At 10 scraps per ticket this is either a 50% cumulative drop rate on scraps, or a 5% drop rate on tickets. So now lets assume someone wants to acquire a 5 ticket item. 5 tickets at a 5% drop rate is 20×5 = 100 keys. 100 keys at 25keys/2100 gems is 8400 gems. 8400 gems at 80 gems per dollar is $105. This is of course on average.

tl;dr: 1, 5 ticket weapon skin = $105, 1, 1 ticket weapon skin = $21

That is incredibly rediculous.

You are disregarding all the other drops you get from the chest.

actually, if you look back on the historical droprate and assume the droprate on the tickets haven’t changed, it is a 2% change to get a ticket and a 20% change for a scrap to drop. The current research cycle has not enough input to deduct that droprate has been changed.

so the change on getting a ticket is 2/100. So on average, for each ticket you will need to open 50 boxes.

So the value of 1 ticket (following this calculation) would be 52,50 USD.

However, you are miscalculating one thing here. The chests also drops a lot of other goods. They might be of no value for you, but they do represent value too. Wether it is a unique miniature, or a booster.
So calculating the value this way is just not right.

A better method is to look at the TP price and calculate the price that way.
looking at the 5 ticket weapons, they go for 225 gold max
the 1 ticket weapons go for 95g max. So the newer 1 ticket weapons have the best bucks.

Currently 1 gold cost 0.11 USD to buy. This means that the more popular one ticket weapon will cost you 10,45 USD

How can this be such a difference. That is exactly why your method of calculating is frauded. The difference exist cause people obviously open boxes with keys they have farmed and sell the weaponskins instead of keeping them for themselfes. The reason can only be that they are not interested in them and even are willing to sell them far below the price you would expect based on gems. The main reason must be that you do get other things out of the boxes that represent value too. This devaluates your calculation.

Vicissitude.6845:

I hate to do this but lets compare this to league of legends. When pulsefire ezreal came out he was around $25 dollars. Lets compare the work put into pulsefire ezreal compared to a ticket weapon. Ticket weapons have special effects, some have sound effects. Pulsefire ezreal has completely redone sounds, all of his abilities have been reworked visually, he has 3 stages where he changes visually. Does 20 dollars sound like a reasonable price point when compared to pulsefire ezreal?

It is of course worth pointing out that said skin can (unless they have changed how it works) only be bought with RPs, which requires real money while gems can be bought with in-game gold.

It is also worth pointing out that a skin in a MMO is a completely different beast compared to a skin in a very controlled and limited game.

The fact remains that the only way to get tickets is via chests. Putting value on other items in the chest does not change the fact x amount of chests must be opened to acquire enough tickets to purchase a bl claim ticket weapon.

lordkrall.7241:

It is also worth pointing out that a skin in a MMO is a completely different beast compared to a skin in a very controlled and limited game.

That is why i compared them based on work done, which is the only thing comparable.

My suggestion to them is to make black lion tickets purchasable with gems. 1 ticket would go for somewhere between $5-10. If all weapons are reduced to 1 ticket then i think $10-15 is reasonable. However $25 is too much for a weapon skin.

But the work done is not comparable as such either, seeing as they must take waaaay more stuff into account when making a skin for an MMO. At the very least they need to take all races and genders into consideration, which means 10 things already there. Then there is also the different professions that uses the weapons differently so we would have to take those into account as well.

I would potentially agree with being able to buy tickets directly with gems IF the weapons were not trade-able. But they are. You can get every single Black Lion skin without ever using any gems whatsoever.

It is of course also worth pointing out that it is a matter of income. What should they add into the store to weight up the losses from removing the tickets from the Black Lion Chests?

Vicissitude.6845:

The fact remains that the only way to get tickets is via chests. Putting value on other items in the chest does not change the fact x amount of chests must be opened to acquire enough tickets to purchase a bl claim ticket weapon.

lordkrall.7241:

It is also worth pointing out that a skin in a MMO is a completely different beast compared to a skin in a very controlled and limited game.

That is why i compared them based on work done, which is the only thing comparable.

My suggestion to them is to make black lion tickets purchasable with gems. 1 ticket would go for somewhere between $5-10. If all weapons are reduced to 1 ticket then i think $10-15 is reasonable. However $25 is too much for a weapon skin.

Tickets have zero value. the weapon skins do. The error in your thinking is that you put value on a half finished product. The product is weapon skins and you can buy it from others. Why do they sell it?? Cause they opened boxes and don’t want them for themselfes. That effect only devaluates the price of them. It actually devaluates them to the price of 10 USD, which is the price thats needed to get the gold to buy the skin on the TP.

The fact that the skins are sold for less then the price needed to get them out of a box, means that it is actually to low priced.. people sell them for a loss cause they are not that interesting.

The whole reasons these skins exist is cause a part of the gamers wants to be unique. They want to have a character and looks that nobody else has. They are willing to pay for uniqueness.

Why do people do that?? Well why do people drive a ferrari? To be honest, the only reason I can think of is to brag. The car has absolutly no additional benefits. You can reach the speed limit a lil bit faster and the quality of the materials is somewhat better, but in no way it justifies the price. It is cause it turns heads. It causes people to want one too and you (as the owner) knows that most people can’t have it.

So the question is…do you react to the bragging with envy or like me, with raising my shoulders and moving along?

The skins are not bought for “uniqueness” as they, in no way, provide it. They are bought because individual purchasers like their aesthetics.

The ferrari analogy doesnt take into account that someone purchasing the car may be spending less, proportional to personal wealth, than someone buying a used Ford. For practical purposes the Ferrari buyer may be spending less. The analogy also ignores the superior design, workmanship, and performance of the Ferrari, all of which can justify the price to a given buyer.

Wanze.8410:

Vicissitude.6845:

Lets do some math based on samples from gw2wiki (which are not very good samples i realize, but other websites have given similar percentages). The drop rate for ticket scraps is 30%, the drop rate for tickets is 2%. At 10 scraps per ticket this is either a 50% cumulative drop rate on scraps, or a 5% drop rate on tickets. So now lets assume someone wants to acquire a 5 ticket item. 5 tickets at a 5% drop rate is 20×5 = 100 keys. 100 keys at 25keys/2100 gems is 8400 gems. 8400 gems at 80 gems per dollar is $105. This is of course on average.

tl;dr: 1, 5 ticket weapon skin = $105, 1, 1 ticket weapon skin = $21

That is incredibly rediculous.

You are disregarding all the other drops you get from the chest.

Which is fair. If you want black lion weapons the other contents in it feel like worthless junk save a few even more rare items you are unlikely to get even with 1k keys.

I get all my skins free of charge through key-farming. I have to say the drop-rate does seem much better now; often 2 scraps or 1 scrap and a ticket fall from chests.

Also, no one must use cash; exchanging Gold buys keys just as well. Now, some might not like the exchange rate, but it is absolutely free no matter how high or low. /shrug

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I get all my skins free of charge through key-farming. I have to say the drop-rate does seem much better now; often 2 scraps or 1 scrap and a ticket fall from chests.

Also, no one must use cash; exchanging Gold buys keys just as well. Now, some might not like the exchange rate, but it is absolutely free no matter how high or low. /shrug

Opportunity costs?
If you value your time (and have a decently paid job in RL) trading gems for gold and then buying the skins straight from the trading post is the way to go.

Vicissitude.6845:

The fact remains that the only way to get tickets is via chests. Putting value on other items in the chest does not change the fact x amount of chests must be opened to acquire enough tickets to purchase a bl claim ticket weapon.

lordkrall.7241:

It is also worth pointing out that a skin in a MMO is a completely different beast compared to a skin in a very controlled and limited game.

That is why i compared them based on work done, which is the only thing comparable.

My suggestion to them is to make black lion tickets purchasable with gems. 1 ticket would go for somewhere between $5-10. If all weapons are reduced to 1 ticket then i think $10-15 is reasonable. However $25 is too much for a weapon skin.

By purchasing keys you are basically acknowledging your ok with lottery involved.. if after finding you get insufficient amounts of tickets or a n other items that you wanted and choose to whine about how much it might now cost to get what you want.. simply means you shouldn’t of entered the lottery.
Sure there is a small chance each time you open a chest of getting a scrap or a whole ticket, but there is also a greater chance you wont get either, but you do always get something for your money so what you really should be considering is that this is a gamble where you win 100% the time, just maybe not the jackpot every roll.
Another way you could look at it is put your $20 into a fruit machine and see how much you get back.. then consider how many jackpots you hit in the process.. I would hazard a guess it might just be zero in both counts whereas the BL Chests always see you walking away with a prize.

If your not happy with that then it’s simple, don’t buy keys farm the gold and buy them off the TP… no one is forcing you to spend real currency to either buy keys or buy the skin all can be purchased using in game currency.

Malediktus.3740:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I get all my skins free of charge through key-farming. I have to say the drop-rate does seem much better now; often 2 scraps or 1 scrap and a ticket fall from chests.

Also, no one must use cash; exchanging Gold buys keys just as well. Now, some might not like the exchange rate, but it is absolutely free no matter how high or low. /shrug

Opportunity costs?
If you value your time (and have a decently paid job in RL) trading gems for gold and then buying the skins straight from the trading post is the way to go.

I do key farming also and while I’m aware of the opportunity costs, I don’t think it’s as high as some say. For example, people say that doing dungeons gets more gold faster that could be used to buy the skins. But since I don’t run dungeons that doesn’t count for me. In addition, it does generate the occasional decent drop that offsets these opportunity costs. I’ve gotten gem store back packs, frequent unidentified dyes (worth almost a gold each now), a fair number of minis worth 2-3 gold each, access to the new dyes kits (such as the Crimson Lion dyes) a number of times, a sizable number of black lion salvage kits, makeover kits, and even a rare home instance orichalcum node, among other things I’ve gotten. In addition, if you hold on to the skins for a while instead of posting immediately to sell for those low prices, then the gold for the amount of work goes up appreciably.

And not all of us have disposable income we are comfortable using on RNG items or even buying gold with it.

Edit: it’s not reasonable to tell the key farmers to buy them from the trading post, if the key farmers are the ones putting them on the trading post in the first place.

Black lion chests are no more exploitive than baseball cards used to be. Every year you’d buy packs of cards, over and over again to get the players you wanted. This type of thing isn’t new. It’s not just Guild Wars 2. It’s not just MMOs.

Companies have been plying this trade of getting people to buy random packs of things to get specific things for a long time.

The only real difference is the ease of access, since no one sold baseball cards in your house.

Malediktus.3740:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I get all my skins free of charge through key-farming. I have to say the drop-rate does seem much better now; often 2 scraps or 1 scrap and a ticket fall from chests.

Also, no one must use cash; exchanging Gold buys keys just as well. Now, some might not like the exchange rate, but it is absolutely free no matter how high or low. /shrug

Opportunity costs?
If you value your time (and have a decently paid job in RL) trading gems for gold and then buying the skins straight from the trading post is the way to go.

Fixed income, and a horde of skins in the bank, just waiting to be sold. Hehe.

Bloodstealer.5978:

…
By purchasing keys you are basically acknowledging your ok with lottery involved.. if after finding you get insufficient amounts of tickets or a n other items that you wanted and choose to whine about how much it might now cost to get what you want.. simply means you shouldn’t of entered the lottery.
…

Can a 12 year old kid, who gambles with his parents money, understands this kind of things ?
IMO, he can’t, and that’s why he’s such a good prey for Anet, and such a cash cow….

Malediktus.3740:

Wanze.8410:

Vicissitude.6845:

Lets do some math based on samples from gw2wiki (which are not very good samples i realize, but other websites have given similar percentages). The drop rate for ticket scraps is 30%, the drop rate for tickets is 2%. At 10 scraps per ticket this is either a 50% cumulative drop rate on scraps, or a 5% drop rate on tickets. So now lets assume someone wants to acquire a 5 ticket item. 5 tickets at a 5% drop rate is 20×5 = 100 keys. 100 keys at 25keys/2100 gems is 8400 gems. 8400 gems at 80 gems per dollar is $105. This is of course on average.

tl;dr: 1, 5 ticket weapon skin = $105, 1, 1 ticket weapon skin = $21

That is incredibly rediculous.

You are disregarding all the other drops you get from the chest.

Which is fair. If you want black lion weapons the other contents in it feel like worthless junk save a few even more rare items you are unlikely to get even with 1k keys.

If you want black lion weapons only, exchange your gems to gold and buy them on the tp.

Acinonyx Rex.8609:

Bloodstealer.5978:

…
By purchasing keys you are basically acknowledging your ok with lottery involved.. if after finding you get insufficient amounts of tickets or a n other items that you wanted and choose to whine about how much it might now cost to get what you want.. simply means you shouldn’t of entered the lottery.
…

Can a 12 year old kid, who gambles with his parents money, understands this kind of things ?
IMO, he can’t, and that’s why he’s such a good prey for Anet, and such a cash cow….

Its the parents responsibility to look after how their 12 year old spends money, not Anets.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Malediktus.3740:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I get all my skins free of charge through key-farming. I have to say the drop-rate does seem much better now; often 2 scraps or 1 scrap and a ticket fall from chests.

Also, no one must use cash; exchanging Gold buys keys just as well. Now, some might not like the exchange rate, but it is absolutely free no matter how high or low. /shrug

Opportunity costs?
If you value your time (and have a decently paid job in RL) trading gems for gold and then buying the skins straight from the trading post is the way to go.

Fixed income, and a horde of skins in the bank, just waiting to be sold. Hehe.

Same. ^^
In my case, 10 skins in my bank waiting for the prices to reach a decent level for my effort in getting them. One is already at almost 400 gold, but I think it can go higher so I’m holding on to it a bit longer.

Acinonyx Rex.8609:

Bloodstealer.5978:

…
By purchasing keys you are basically acknowledging your ok with lottery involved.. if after finding you get insufficient amounts of tickets or a n other items that you wanted and choose to whine about how much it might now cost to get what you want.. simply means you shouldn’t of entered the lottery.
…

Can a 12 year old kid, who gambles with his parents money, understands this kind of things ?
IMO, he can’t, and that’s why he’s such a good prey for Anet, and such a cash cow….

As a parent… I wouldn’t allow my 13yr, 15 yr old just whip out my card and go buy the things in the first place… the game has a 12 rating but that does not exonerate parents from being responsible for their kids actions.
If they feel it’s fine for their kids to spend RL coin instead of using in game currency to purchase keys that clearly state can unlock “a variety” items found within the gem store (as does the chest itself) then that is entirely down to them, its their money afterall.
Add to that if the player or the responsible parent cares not to read what is being purchased and misses the fact it does not guarantee a scrap or full ticket or anything for that matter, then sorry that’s not ANET’s fault and your point is moot.

As for gambling.. its not a gamble because your guaranteed something for your money 100% of the time.. so its merely a lucky dip from the tombola where everyone is a winner.

Black lion scam, no thanks I’d rather not play that terrible rng game.

aspirine.6852:

Black lion scam, no thanks I’d rather not play that terrible rng game.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Vicissitude.6845:

tl;dr: 1, 5 ticket weapon skin = $105, 1, 1 ticket weapon skin = $21

you’re able to farm keys by doing the level 10 personal story; takes about 20-30 minutes each key.
so you have a choice: 5-ticket skin for 33 hours, or 1-ticket skin for 6 hours.
or you could even farm gold, say 5g per hour, get ~80g, and buy the 1-ticket skin in 16 hours.
so many choices!

First of all the BLC should only be thought of as a “Whitman’s Sampler” of minor gem shop items whose value equals or exceeds the cost of a single key, 125 gems. The only gambling comes from how much of a discount over buying those items separately you got.

Now imagine a “Whitman’s Sampler” of chocolates with a “Chance to Win a Car” sticker on it. That’s what tickets and ticket scraps are. You wouldn’t buy out all the boxes of chocolates at your market in the hopes of winning a car, especially if you hate chocolates, so why are you (the general you) buying keys to unlock BLC just for tickets and scraps?

And yes, math wise it sucks.

I remember seeing that it’s a 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 chance for a scrap and 1 in 40 or 1 in 50 for a full ticket.

Lets look at 25 keys, 2100 gems or $26.25€.

At the better odds of 1 in 4, ticket scraps distribution is

0-9 – 92.87%
10-19 – 7.13%
20-25 – virtually 0%

For full tickets at 1 in 40

0 – 53.10%
1 – 34.04%
2 – 10.47%
3 – 2.06%
4 – 0.29%
5 – 0.03%
6 or more – virtually 0%

That means with 25 keys you have a 49.31% chance of not getting a ticket or 10 or more scraps. It’s a coin flip.

Enough scraps or tickets for x tickets

1 – 35.40%
2 – 12.15%
3 – 2.66%
4 – 0.42%
5 – 0.05%

That translates into 0.696 tickets per 25 keys, ignoring the extra scraps. But those extra scraps do add up. So lets double the order 50 keys for $52.50€.

Scraps

0-9 – 16.37%
10-19 – 82.24%
20-29 – 1.39%
30-50 – virtually 0%

Tickets

0 – 28.20%
1 – 36.15%
2 – 22.71%
3 – 9.32%
4 – 2.81%
5 – 0.66%
6 – 0.13%
7 – 0.02%
8 or more – virtually 0%

I won’t bother with the addition tables but now you only have a 4.62% of not having at least 1 ticket and the average is now 2.1001 tickets for 50 keys, due to rolling over the scraps.

No matter how you slice it it’s expensive. About $25€ a ticket. If you used that to buy gold via the exchange that’s 247 gold at the moment. Daydreamer skins, currently 1 ticket, cost less than 100 gold. Balthazar, now a 5 ticket skin is less than 245 gold.

It’s the skins you can’t buy anymore that are truly pricey and mostly because it’s a seller’s market, easily manipulated, with only 1 available at a time.

Personally I will always be against the way BL skins are handled. The fact that most of the new weapons in this game are released in a way that can only be acquired through the gem store either by straight up purchasing the skin or by buying bl chests to get tickets to get skins is messed up. Also they continue to limit certain items and make them exclusive i.e. old weapon skins basically guaranteeing no one will get them anymore. I wouldn’t mind it so much if we got some weapons in the actual game…..

That being said, It’s not totally bad because you can get the skins from gold or by farming keys. And even though 25$ a ticket is a lot other games have their skins more expensive. In CS all good skins go from 30 – 1000s of dollars. So its not as horrible, but it is bad service and bad content creation (from the players perspective from a business perspective fantastic exploitation!!!!).

Vayne.8563:

Black lion chests are no more exploitive than baseball cards used to be. Every year you’d buy packs of cards, over and over again to get the players you wanted. This type of thing isn’t new. It’s not just Guild Wars 2. It’s not just MMOs.

Companies have been plying this trade of getting people to buy random packs of things to get specific things for a long time.

The only real difference is the ease of access, since no one sold baseball cards in your house.

There’s more than one real difference.

Card packs, whether sport or collectible-game packs, contain cards. They’re all usable for the same thing. If you get a card you have no use for, you still have the potential to trade it to someone else for something you do want. With some cards, like MTG, you might be able to sell a card you don’t want, partially or completely defraying your expenses. Not true with BLC’s. You have to get quite lucky to get anything salable, as most of the items dropped are account bound. Also, if you do sell something, you’re getting gold, not money.

The third real difference, this one in ANet’s favor, is that you can obtain keys via play, and gold can be exchanged for gems to buy keys. Card packs do not allow for a similar option.

So, is random acquisition of a desired item, sight unseen, new in MMO’s? Nope, you’re right. But there’s more than just ease of access to consider when comparing.

Both card packs and virtual keys to open virtual chests exploit human weakness. I don’t support either (well, I haven’t with cards since I was a kid, and never did with chests in MMO’s). However, I believe that card packs offer more potential value than virtual chests, unless someone is inclined to buy the various fluff gewgaws that exist to allow the developer to give people something other than what they’re really after.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Black lion chests are no more exploitive than baseball cards used to be. Every year you’d buy packs of cards, over and over again to get the players you wanted. This type of thing isn’t new. It’s not just Guild Wars 2. It’s not just MMOs.

Companies have been plying this trade of getting people to buy random packs of things to get specific things for a long time.

The only real difference is the ease of access, since no one sold baseball cards in your house.

There’s more than one real difference.

Card packs, whether sport or collectible-game packs, contain cards. They’re all usable for the same thing. If you get a card you have no use for, you still have the potential to trade it to someone else for something you do want. With some cards, like MTG, you might be able to sell a card you don’t want, partially or completely defraying your expenses. Not true with BLC’s. You have to get quite lucky to get anything salable, as most of the items dropped are account bound. Also, if you do sell something, you’re getting gold, not money.

The third real difference, this one in ANet’s favor, is that you can obtain keys via play, and gold can be exchanged for gems to buy keys. Card packs do not allow for a similar option.

So, is random acquisition of a desired item, sight unseen, new in MMO’s? Nope, you’re right. But there’s more than just ease of access to consider when comparing.

Both card packs and virtual keys to open virtual chests exploit human weakness. I don’t support either (well, I haven’t with cards since I was a kid, and never did with chests in MMO’s). However, I believe that card packs offer more potential value than virtual chests, unless someone is inclined to buy the various fluff gewgaws that exist to allow the developer to give people something other than what they’re really after.

Many of the things you get from black lion chests can be traded though and in fact, people trade them for what they want. Everyone who buys keys to get weapons to sell on the trading post, is in fact trading their ticket scraps and tickets for gold. Which will in fact allow them to buy stuff they want. It’s not really any different than selling a baseball card. You can sell the minis for 2-3 gold each and save toward something you want too.

This is just a computerized update of what they did with baseball cards, and it’s been going on forever. I know because I know how much money as I kid I spent on not just sports cards, but collectible cards like wacky packs.

And now, of course, they have magic the gathering. Random chests have been around in one form or another for a long long time. Are there slight differences? Sure.

But it’s only because technology has moved on.

It’s like saying TV is more damaging now because it’s color.

This is not the same as gambling. Gambling offers you a chance at real money back. Lion chests are a product you buy with no way of changing that to real world money. The baseball card analogy is closer but even that still can be changed back to cash which lion chests cannot.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Black lion chests are no more exploitive than baseball cards used to be. Every year you’d buy packs of cards, over and over again to get the players you wanted. This type of thing isn’t new. It’s not just Guild Wars 2. It’s not just MMOs.

Companies have been plying this trade of getting people to buy random packs of things to get specific things for a long time.

The only real difference is the ease of access, since no one sold baseball cards in your house.

There’s more than one real difference.

Card packs, whether sport or collectible-game packs, contain cards. They’re all usable for the same thing. If you get a card you have no use for, you still have the potential to trade it to someone else for something you do want. With some cards, like MTG, you might be able to sell a card you don’t want, partially or completely defraying your expenses. Not true with BLC’s. You have to get quite lucky to get anything salable, as most of the items dropped are account bound. Also, if you do sell something, you’re getting gold, not money.

The third real difference, this one in ANet’s favor, is that you can obtain keys via play, and gold can be exchanged for gems to buy keys. Card packs do not allow for a similar option.

So, is random acquisition of a desired item, sight unseen, new in MMO’s? Nope, you’re right. But there’s more than just ease of access to consider when comparing.

Both card packs and virtual keys to open virtual chests exploit human weakness. I don’t support either (well, I haven’t with cards since I was a kid, and never did with chests in MMO’s). However, I believe that card packs offer more potential value than virtual chests, unless someone is inclined to buy the various fluff gewgaws that exist to allow the developer to give people something other than what they’re really after.

Many of the things you get from black lion chests can be traded though and in fact, people trade them for what they want. Everyone who buys keys to get weapons to sell on the trading post, is in fact trading their ticket scraps and tickets for gold. Which will in fact allow them to buy stuff they want. It’s not really any different than selling a baseball card. You can sell the minis for 2-3 gold each and save toward something you want too.

This is just a computerized update of what they did with baseball cards, and it’s been going on forever. I know because I know how much money as I kid I spent on not just sports cards, but collectible cards like wacky packs.

And now, of course, they have magic the gathering. Random chests have been around in one form or another for a long long time. Are there slight differences? Sure.

But it’s only because technology has moved on.

It’s like saying TV is more damaging now because it’s color.

Every time someone opens a card pack, they get cards. Every time someone opens a BLC, they do not get something that’s not account bound. The wiki page on the BLC, in fact, states that most items are account bound. I’ve only opened them with keys from story completion or the ultra rare key drop from a mob. With the exception of one dye drop and one mini, everything I’ve gotten has been account bound.

Also, if someone’s objective in opening a chest is a ticket to get a weapon skin, they win. Saying that they can trade the weapon skin for gold is kind of off given the thread topic.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Black lion chests are no more exploitive than baseball cards used to be. Every year you’d buy packs of cards, over and over again to get the players you wanted. This type of thing isn’t new. It’s not just Guild Wars 2. It’s not just MMOs.

Companies have been plying this trade of getting people to buy random packs of things to get specific things for a long time.

The only real difference is the ease of access, since no one sold baseball cards in your house.

There’s more than one real difference.

Card packs, whether sport or collectible-game packs, contain cards. They’re all usable for the same thing. If you get a card you have no use for, you still have the potential to trade it to someone else for something you do want. With some cards, like MTG, you might be able to sell a card you don’t want, partially or completely defraying your expenses. Not true with BLC’s. You have to get quite lucky to get anything salable, as most of the items dropped are account bound. Also, if you do sell something, you’re getting gold, not money.

The third real difference, this one in ANet’s favor, is that you can obtain keys via play, and gold can be exchanged for gems to buy keys. Card packs do not allow for a similar option.

So, is random acquisition of a desired item, sight unseen, new in MMO’s? Nope, you’re right. But there’s more than just ease of access to consider when comparing.

Both card packs and virtual keys to open virtual chests exploit human weakness. I don’t support either (well, I haven’t with cards since I was a kid, and never did with chests in MMO’s). However, I believe that card packs offer more potential value than virtual chests, unless someone is inclined to buy the various fluff gewgaws that exist to allow the developer to give people something other than what they’re really after.

Many of the things you get from black lion chests can be traded though and in fact, people trade them for what they want. Everyone who buys keys to get weapons to sell on the trading post, is in fact trading their ticket scraps and tickets for gold. Which will in fact allow them to buy stuff they want. It’s not really any different than selling a baseball card. You can sell the minis for 2-3 gold each and save toward something you want too.

This is just a computerized update of what they did with baseball cards, and it’s been going on forever. I know because I know how much money as I kid I spent on not just sports cards, but collectible cards like wacky packs.

And now, of course, they have magic the gathering. Random chests have been around in one form or another for a long long time. Are there slight differences? Sure.

But it’s only because technology has moved on.

It’s like saying TV is more damaging now because it’s color.

Every time someone opens a card pack, they get cards. Every time someone opens a BLC, they do not get something that’s not account bound. The wiki page on the BLC, in fact, states that most items are account bound. I’ve only opened them with keys from story completion or the ultra rare key drop from a mob. With the exception of one dye drop and one mini, everything I’ve gotten has been account bound.

Also, if someone’s objective in opening a chest is a ticket to get a weapon skin, they win. Saying that they can trade the weapon skin for gold is kind of off given the thread topic.

Except most of the stuff that’s account bound, is largely worthless and wouldn’t sell anyway. Boosters are account bound. They’d be worth next to nothing. Most of the minis aren’t, they’re worth something. Largely speaking, the stuff worth actual money, for the most part, can be sold, and that’s what people buy it for.

Boosters are guaranteed and always account bound. Everyone knows that. People that buy keys know they automatically get one account bound booster. It’s not the start of the show. Other account bound things include bank express, repair cannister, other keys (which allow you to open more chests).

Saying most things are account bound in this case is a bit misleading because that stuff that is is mostly (again mostly) worthless anyway.

The stuff you want, again for the most part, can either be sold directly (like nodes) or parlayed into something which can be sold, like black lion ticket scraps.

It’s a lottery, so of course the house wins. The value to the purchaser is in the anticipation of opening the BL chest, not in the likely contents.

Just to be accurate, Boosters are not guaranteed. You can actually get 3 (or 4) items that do not include a Booster. =)

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Just to be accurate, Boosters are not guaranteed. You can actually get 3 (or 4) items that do not include a Booster. =)

You sure? I’ve always gotten at least one booster and wiki says one is guaranteed.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Chest
Each Black Lion Chest contains 2 randomly selected items from the below list, as well as one randomly selected booster. It is possible to receive two of the same item, including two stacks of the same item, if that item drops in stacks of more than one.

It took me 2.5 years to collect 1 ticket. Not bad eh?

I must be fortunate, then, because twice in my many chest-openings have I received no Booster.

Likely a bug…perhaps I should be compensated with something extreme! =P

uhohhotdog.3598:

This is not the same as gambling. Gambling offers you a chance at real money back. Lion chests are a product you buy with no way of changing that to real world money. The baseball card analogy is closer but even that still can be changed back to cash which lion chests cannot.

That’s why you buy gems and not anything from the Gem Shop directly with cash.

When will players accept that the standard gem shop items you get in the chests are the primary reward and like in the case of gift bag promotions the value of the contents only has to exceed or at least match the cost of the gift bag. Tickets are just like a “chance to win a new car”.

In real life would you buy all the gift bags just for a better chance to win that car? No? Then why not buy keys with that same logic, buy them for the get the standard gem shop items and if you get a ticket or enough scraps for one, bonus! But tickets and scraps should never, ever be your primary reason to buy keys.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I must be fortunate, then, because twice in my many chest-openings have I received no Booster.

Likely a bug…perhaps I should be compensated with something extreme! =P

Make a thread suggesting that ANet give you a Legendary chest to compensate you for your time and the loss of the booster due to their bug. ^^

Hehe. Now who would do something like that??

Behellagh.1468:

uhohhotdog.3598:

This is not the same as gambling. Gambling offers you a chance at real money back. Lion chests are a product you buy with no way of changing that to real world money. The baseball card analogy is closer but even that still can be changed back to cash which lion chests cannot.

That’s why you buy gems and not anything from the Gem Shop directly with cash.

When will players accept that the standard gem shop items you get in the chests are the primary reward and like in the case of gift bag promotions the value of the contents only has to exceed or at least match the cost of the gift bag. Tickets are just like a “chance to win a new car”.

In real life would you buy all the gift bags just for a better chance to win that car? No? Then why not buy keys with that same logic, buy them for the get the standard gem shop items and if you get a ticket or enough scraps for one, bonus! But tickets and scraps should never, ever be your primary reason to buy keys.

Tickets are my primary reason. Everything else is bonus

uhohhotdog.3598:

Behellagh.1468:

uhohhotdog.3598:

This is not the same as gambling. Gambling offers you a chance at real money back. Lion chests are a product you buy with no way of changing that to real world money. The baseball card analogy is closer but even that still can be changed back to cash which lion chests cannot.

That’s why you buy gems and not anything from the Gem Shop directly with cash.

When will players accept that the standard gem shop items you get in the chests are the primary reward and like in the case of gift bag promotions the value of the contents only has to exceed or at least match the cost of the gift bag. Tickets are just like a “chance to win a new car”.

In real life would you buy all the gift bags just for a better chance to win that car? No? Then why not buy keys with that same logic, buy them for the get the standard gem shop items and if you get a ticket or enough scraps for one, bonus! But tickets and scraps should never, ever be your primary reason to buy keys.

Tickets are my primary reason. Everything else is bonus

^
Tickets are my primary reason also. Everything else is bonus. And it’s not like a chance to get a car. The odds are much better unless you are thinking of gift bags that have a realistic chance for a car every 50 bags. Now if you are thinking of price of the keys/bags as compared to the price of the skin/car, maybe so if you are buying and not key running.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Just to be accurate, Boosters are not guaranteed. You can actually get 3 (or 4) items that do not include a Booster. =)

A booster is guaranteed. You get three items in each chest, and the first one, the one in the first slot is ALWAYS a booster of some kind.

Ok, Vayne, as you wish.

lordkrall.7241:

aspirine.6852:

Black lion scam, no thanks I’d rather not play that terrible rng game.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Trying to get people to buy keys and implement such an rng on the chest is not a scam you say?

aspirine.6852:

lordkrall.7241:

aspirine.6852:

Black lion scam, no thanks I’d rather not play that terrible rng game.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Trying to get people to buy keys and implement such an rng on the chest is not a scam you say?

It’s not a scam because what’s in the chest isn’t hidden. A scam would be selling you a bunch of keys and letting you think that you can get a free trip to Disneyworld when in fact you can’t.

That doesn’t make it good or right. It’s just not a scam. If I buy a key, it’s easy enough to look into exactly what I might or might not be getting. There are even enough posts to tell you you relative odds on getting stuff.

Vayne.8563:

aspirine.6852:

lordkrall.7241:

aspirine.6852:

Black lion scam, no thanks I’d rather not play that terrible rng game.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Trying to get people to buy keys and implement such an rng on the chest is not a scam you say?

It’s not a scam because what’s in the chest isn’t hidden. A scam would be selling you a bunch of keys and letting you think that you can get a free trip to Disneyworld when in fact you can’t.

That doesn’t make it good or right. It’s just not a scam. If I buy a key, it’s easy enough to look into exactly what I might or might not be getting. There are even enough posts to tell you you relative odds on getting stuff.

You mean you have a chance of getting? There are what 50 or more options or not? Scam is perhaps not the right word, but it sure feels like it when you try those keys

aspirine.6852:

Vayne.8563:

aspirine.6852:

lordkrall.7241:

aspirine.6852:

Black lion scam, no thanks I’d rather not play that terrible rng game.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Trying to get people to buy keys and implement such an rng on the chest is not a scam you say?

It’s not a scam because what’s in the chest isn’t hidden. A scam would be selling you a bunch of keys and letting you think that you can get a free trip to Disneyworld when in fact you can’t.

That doesn’t make it good or right. It’s just not a scam. If I buy a key, it’s easy enough to look into exactly what I might or might not be getting. There are even enough posts to tell you you relative odds on getting stuff.

You mean you have a chance of getting? There are what 50 or more options or not? Scam is perhaps not the right word, but it sure feels like it when you try those keys

It’s certainly not worth buying keys….unless you like opening stuff and gambling, which some people do. But objectively it’s not worth it.

So the smart money is on not buying them.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Tickets are my primary reason. Everything else is bonus

Just a flesh wound.3589:

^
Tickets are my primary reason also. Everything else is bonus.

Then you have no right to complain about the drop rate or how much it costs in gold or cash to get a ticket.

Tickets were added well after launch when the BLC were introduced. It was done to spur key sales. Once they were added key drops, from map completion and BLCs themselves almost entirely dried up. Key farming became an acceptable gameplay option.

In the end it’s one of the motivators driving the pathological need to farm gold to buy those skins directly or gems for keys to get tickets. And farming for gold is why players cry grind. It’s just another “reward” mechanic that makes the game rewards feel … unrewarding.

Don’t give in. As soon as you make the rewards received more important than the enjoyment of playing the game is no longer a game, a source of enjoyment but an obligation, a job. And don’t you have enough of those?

Forum bug. She’s got it.