Guild Wars 2

A lot of talk has been going on about boon hate on the guardian and elementalist forums. A major point people have brought up is that people may start NOT wanting you to give them boons. Obviously I feel this is blowing things slightly out of proportion having not seen the implementation for it yet, however I do believe that raw damage increase seems like an unclassy wave of mitigating bunker builds.

Something that occurred to me that might be a bit “more acceptable”, at least in regards to the thief class, would be a chance to ahem steal a boon, based on critical hits. It just seems obvious, and probably wouldn’t result in the current outcry on the forums about ruining boons.

Warrior was mentioned as a candidate, and —- i suppose it may make sense for them to get increased damage against a boon heavy target as opposed to other enemy boon mitigation. After all they have something similar already, where if they get blocked, they gain might… if I remember correctly. I don’t really play a warrior.

General Community thoughts? If thieves/other classes start having bonuses against your number of boons, would you prefer to not get boons from your allies?

Stolen from guardian topic: (edit – added link) http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2guru/b/377719641 (starts at about the 1:01.20 mark)

Cant wait to make a Boon-Hate Killshot Rifle Warrior.

Gonna kill-shot everything, Glass Cannon? Bunker?

It dont matter

It’s an exploitable decision.

The boons that matter in pvp are only 3: protection, stability, retailation.
People will simply run with just those and don’t stack the others.
Eles will not use the vigor/regen trait, Guards will not use SY.

Basically nothing really changes, unless the damage increase vs boons is at least 5% per boon.

Tell necros that vigor doesn’t matter.

I’m still not sold on ‘boon hate’. What I do know is that too many professions have access to cheap condition removal, and some professions have cheap access to boon production. This makes conditions somewhat weak, and boons extremely strong.

I like the idea of ‘boon hate’ only if its implemented in a fashion similar to the Necromancer focus 5 ability, where the base damage is low, but increases sharply based upon the number of boons.

Thedenofsin.7340:

I like the idea of ‘boon hate’ only if its implemented in a fashion similar to the Necromancer focus 5 ability, where the base damage is low, but increases sharply based upon the number of boons.

It doesn’t look like it’ll be an active thing but rather a trait to be specced into. Granted, this is all speculation.

Theres a sigil that removes boon on criticals, and there are several trait lines that remove boons, as well as direct skills that remove boons…

Quick Mouse.7635:

Theres a sigil that removes boon on criticals, and there are several trait lines that remove boons, as well as direct skills that remove boons…

Stating their existence doesn’t really establish what your stance on the mention of possible changes from the livestream, aside from possibly implying you think that they don’t need to implement this change (which i personally do agree with). You could also be implying that my idea that a trait for stealing boons for thieves is generic and dumb, which is fair enough, and you’d be entitled to your opinion, however i’d rather not have to put words in your mouth, figuratively speaking. Could you clarify what your particular stance is?

A "boon hate" mechanic? The last thing this game needs are new mechanics to mitigate existing mechanics. How about addressing the problem with boons themselves by re-balancing them and the existing mechanics that are meant to deal with them?

TwoBit.5903:

A “boon hate” mechanic? The last thing this game needs are new mechanics to mitigate existing mechanics. How about addressing the problem with boons themselves by re-balancing them and the existing mechanics that are meant to deal with them?

this isn’t something I’m proposing, this is something they are actually considering implementing.

alemfi.5107:

TwoBit.5903:

A “boon hate” mechanic? The last thing this game needs are new mechanics to mitigate existing mechanics. How about addressing the problem with boons themselves by re-balancing them and the existing mechanics that are meant to deal with them?

this isn’t something I’m proposing, this is something they are actually considering implementing.

Yeah, I just read the transcripts. Still, it seems idiotic. The last thing this game needs are more mechanics, especially ones so specialized as to deal with very specific situations. Balance and depth come from meaningful interplay of mechanics not the abundance of unnecessary ones.

TwoBit.5903:

alemfi.5107:

TwoBit.5903:

A “boon hate” mechanic? The last thing this game needs are new mechanics to mitigate existing mechanics. How about addressing the problem with boons themselves by re-balancing them and the existing mechanics that are meant to deal with them?

this isn’t something I’m proposing, this is something they are actually considering implementing.

Yeah, I just read the transcripts. Still, it seems idiotic. The last thing this game needs are more mechanics, especially ones so specialized as to deal with very specific situations. Balance and depth come from meaningful interplay of mechanics not the abundance of unnecessary ones.

Ah I see. For sure, I consider this entirely unneccessary. If boons ( namely probably protection ) are too strong for bunker viability, then it should be adjusted as opposed to adding additional complications.

There is boon hate as is necro can make boons into debuffs but ppl still want them. Mesmer can steal them and give it to there team too. Look at it like this would you say you would not want reg or protection if it increase the dmg you take by say 2% each?

Stupid idea, just another lazy way to balance mechanics. Rather than encouraging people to use sigils or create runes to remove or steal boons, they just give people more damage to punish boons.

Giving it to the burst classes like warrior and thief is additionally a bad call. These burst classes already do so much damage, giving them extra vs. people who run with boons is just silly.

This game needs to encourage less bust vs bunker but not by saying okay lets make it so burst can trump bunker to!

Edit: why do they also seem to ignore team mechanics? Rather than just saying a thief or warrior should burst a boon class, why aren’t you looking at it from a team perspective, so you bring a necro or mesmer to strip boons then the burst to kill them.

Jski.6180:

There is boon hate as is necro can make boons into debuffs but ppl still want them. Mesmer can steal them and give it to there team too. Look at it like this would you say you would not want reg or protection if it increase the dmg you take by say 2% each?

In regards to that, (surprisingly , you also chose 2%, as I am expecting it’ll be) i personally would not care, and believe that the guard and ele community in general are making too big of a fuss about it, however I thought I’d see how a more “general” community would feel, since a common concern on the guardian topic is about ppl not wanting the boons the guardian gives. Glad to see that other people share my perspective. Still if thieves do not have a trait that lets them steal boons, I figure.. why not? Doesn’t seem like it should do too much harm, and fits the thief theme.

purpleskies.3274:

Edit: why do they also seem to ignore team mechanics? Rather than just saying a thief or warrior should burst a boon class, why aren’t you looking at it from a team perspective, so you bring a necro or mesmer to strip boons then the burst to kill them.

That would be assuming/expecting that the majority of (sPvP) people are able to think about such things. Can’t give them that much credit.

In all seriousness though, it is a rather unnecessary thing to throw in, but not as big a deal as the guardian and ele community seem to be making it out to be (as far as i can see).

The more I see people jump to conclusions and run rampant with their gibberish, the more my head sinks in to my hands.

With so little information to go on, how is ANYONE making statements about this yet? MMO communities are absolutely dreadful for this sort of thing…

alemfi.5107:

Jski.6180:

There is boon hate as is necro can make boons into debuffs but ppl still want them. Mesmer can steal them and give it to there team too. Look at it like this would you say you would not want reg or protection if it increase the dmg you take by say 2% each?

In regards to that, (surprisingly , you also chose 2%, as I am expecting it’ll be) i personally would not care, and believe that the guard and ele community in general are making too big of a fuss about it, however I thought I’d see how a more “general” community would feel, since a common concern on the guardian topic is about ppl not wanting the boons the guardian gives. Glad to see that other people share my perspective. Still if thieves do not have a trait that lets them steal boons, I figure.. why not? Doesn’t seem like it should do too much harm, and fits the thief theme.

2% seems to be the stander for more dmg done per boon you have on you. If thf’s stealth takes a hit then they should out put more dmg such as if guards and ele healing takes a hit then there dmg or some other thing should get stronger.

I think more boon hate would add a lot more to the depth of play as thing stand boons are every thing in wvw there should be a way to counter this beyond just a necro spamming debuffs. Every thing should have its own risk and rewared boons have no risk also debuffs do not have a risk too they should look into adding in more tricks with debuffs i know necro has its tricks and guardian has one trick too there also the sigli that puts it on other ppl when you crit (i would love to see more of this).

Boon hate would be a natural addition to the necromancer, we already have spinal shivers that does more damage for every boon it strips (up to three) something else along those line would be cool. Like the well that converts boons to conditions actualy just be a pulse that does x damage +% for every boon stripped.

It would be an okay idea if implemented properly. However, allowing these boon-hate abilities to be accessible to the already stronger/more favored builds for each profession will be a definite failure if they want diversity or change in the meta.

Thieves will probably just strip them. That’s what sins did.
Warriors had things like bleed if they have an enchant or something like that or enchanted foes couldn’t block this hit.
Or something like that I can’t recall what skills like Magehunter smash did..

I think it’s good, give wars some finesse, make thieves better rounded.

Bonus against boons won’t diminish the significance of boons, generally you’ll rather have protection that not…

TwoBit.5903:

A “boon hate” mechanic? The last thing this game needs are new mechanics to mitigate existing mechanics. How about addressing the problem with boons themselves by re-balancing them and the existing mechanics that are meant to deal with them?

^This.

GW1 all over again… a game filled with gimmicks that can only be countered by another gimmick.
How about fixing the gimmick instead?

Red Falcon.8257:

TwoBit.5903:

A “boon hate” mechanic? The last thing this game needs are new mechanics to mitigate existing mechanics. How about addressing the problem with boons themselves by re-balancing them and the existing mechanics that are meant to deal with them?

^This.

GW1 all over again… a game filled with gimmicks that can only be countered by another gimmick.
How about fixing the gimmick instead?

I think I concur to this in a way.

I think boons are overpowered when they stack up indefinitely particularly the ones that stack duration (Regen, Prot, Vigor, Swiftnessetc). 1 or 2 minutes of Swiftness and Vigor, anyone?

I was thinking, if the max duration stacked by boons are cut in half or even less, say (30 seconds max stack duration for Swiftness or Regen, 10 seconds for Protection) do we still need boon-hate abilities and traits? With this, I think players will not just be trigger-happy in applying boons and stuff all over the place. I dunno.

TwoBit.5903:

A “boon hate” mechanic? The last thing this game needs are new mechanics to mitigate existing mechanics. How about addressing the problem with boons themselves by re-balancing them and the existing mechanics that are meant to deal with them?

The problem is boons have no natural counter besides some necro builds and absurd burst on the lower natural hp for the classes that utilize them more. Its either a niche role for one of the classes, or is a mechanic that also craps on all other classes as well(burst). With them taking the nerf bat to some of the burst mechanics in the game(mug was specifically mentioned as being looked at)Boon hate and stripping builds will have an adequate role within the current framework to bring down certain classes while the builds remain not too powerful themselves. Hypothetically of course, building more damage against boons means you’ll be building less straight damage against those who don’t.

Its a pretty cool addition I think for a part of the game that kind of went under-tuned at launch.

condiments.8043:

TwoBit.5903:

A “boon hate” mechanic? The last thing this game needs are new mechanics to mitigate existing mechanics. How about addressing the problem with boons themselves by re-balancing them and the existing mechanics that are meant to deal with them?

The problem is boons have no natural counter besides some necro builds and absurd burst on the lower natural hp for the classes that utilize them more. Its either a niche role for one of the classes, or is a mechanic that also craps on all other classes as well(burst). With them taking the nerf bat to some of the burst mechanics in the game(mug was specifically mentioned as being looked at)Boon hate and stripping builds will have an adequate role within the current framework to bring down certain classes while the builds remain not too powerful themselves. Hypothetically of course, building more damage against boons means you’ll be building less straight damage against those who don’t.

Its a pretty cool addition I think for a part of the game that kind of went under-tuned at launch.

Boon stripping and corruption are fine as they are, in my opinion. The problem is that bunker professions can stack a variety of low cooldown boons in quick succession. The sheer variety and low cooldown to boon-granting abilities trivializes removal attempts. This is what the developers need to look at.

The addition of a mechanic through traits will only serve to further pigeonhole builds. When you have as much freedom over trait paths and utilities as players do in GW2, players will tends towards the traits that are useful most of the time rather than use builds that are truly specialized. As widespread as boons are, those with boon hate available will always pick it because it would offer the highest consistent dps boost.

Edit: Grammar. Hard to type while eating.

You know, I wouldn’t mind the basic concept if it were aimed at making alternate builds viable (not particularly introducing new build types)…

….like, say for instance, the mechanic for ‘boon hate’ was it just procced damage on the target for every boon they have. So use a special boon hate attack on a target with 3 boons and you get 3 instant tics of damage…but the tic per boon would be static and only enhanced by condition damage. Low condition damage builds (your zerker warrior) would not do hugely as much damage with it so most boon bunkers can simply ignore most of the damage just like they’d probably ignore any bleeds-on-crits. But a condition warrior? That would…possibly just make them a threat rather than a nuisance vs foes with lots of boons or weak condition removal.

Just a thought on my part…

condiments.8043:

The problem is boons have no natural counter besides some necro builds and absurd burst on the lower natural hp for the classes that utilize them more. Its either a niche role for one of the classes, or is a mechanic that also craps on all other classes as well(burst).

There are counters beyond necros. Mesmers have a variety of ways to deal with boons without needing to spec or gear for it (sword auto attack, GS3, null field, arcane thievery). Also conditions can largely ignore protect which makes sense why eles and guards have lots of access to boons but low hp.

But if they gave more boon stripping to the less powerful classes, that’s fine. Giving more burst to classes that are already bursty and really only countered by bunker builds that use boons is just silly.

So is this going to be a pvp/wvw thing, cos boon hate in pve doesn’t make sense at all. Esp on my guard, who actually can’t help giving boons through symbols (unless they want guards to run with sceptre and sword as their only main-hand weapon choices).

I actually don’t see what all the fuss is about with the current system; just nerf boon-duration consumables or limit max boon duration to something like 30 secs or a minute. Perhaps it’s because i play boon-stripping classes also that it’s not an issue for me at all.

If boons make you vulnerable and thus giving boons make other vulnerable, doesn’t that mean that support is a bad thing?

In the last time I have seen lots of complains that the game is already focusing to much on DPS (and I agree) so why make support even worse.

alemfi.5107:

Warrior was mentioned as a candidate, and —- i suppose it may make sense for them to get increased damage against a boon heavy target as opposed to other enemy boon mitigation.

1 or 2 weeks ago there were lengthy discussion about warriors having to much dps…

There definitely shouldn’t be a trait that causes consistent bonus damage against boons, like “+1% damage for each boon on the target” or something. That would be lame. There is definitely, however, room for boon stealing and stripping (keep in mind that some classes already can steal boons, including the Thief), and also I think for a “boon punishing” move, individual weapon or utility skills that do deal bonus damage based on boons, just as Fire Grab deals damage based on Burning.

Boon striping – fine
Boon striping to cause damage – fine, if a little anoying
Boon Hate – doing extra damage per boon on the target? Dont like the sounds of that one little bit. Has the potential to be extremely OP against classes taht are supposed to be “booned up” to be effective. Plus what the hell is with Anet? Why are Thiefs getting more work again?

How about, ya know maybe fixing other classes that need a lot of work and are consistantly told to gtho of parties? (rangers/engi). Ya know two whole classes that are consistantly ignored and belittled?

I like this. Maybe some classes will actually have to put a little thought into what they do instead of just brainlessly LOLSTACKBOONMAKEMEIMMORTAL.

The problem with these threads, is both that the topic creators only mention vague/ incomplete info, and the following posters react based on that, without bothering or even knowing that they should make some deeper research. No offense to anyone, but this adds a lot of unnecessary clutter to the threads.

Here’s a few more details that were mentioned:
- Some traitlines will have some anti-boon mechanics. The Warrior is a good candidate for that. The thief will have its damage toned down for more anti-boon options.
- In fact, they’re planning to change how the thief class is played, maaking it a more mobile/ harassing professions that can last longer, than a squishy all-or-nothing bursts that can spam stealth.

And in my opinion, nerfing boons to make bunker builds balanced, would make boons underpowered for all other builds, so that’s not a good option.

I also disagree that ALL means to counter boons should be about stripping or stealing them. That would make the combat a bit ridiculous, with boons jumping from player to player every single second. It would also make every single class play the same. Do you seriously think Warriors should play like Necromancers when it comes to stripping and stealing boons? Yeah, me neither. Besides, boon stripping is not strong enough against professions that can re-apply boons very often, but improving boon stripping would make it overpowered against all other builds with (fewer) boons.

In the end, I think this is the best option. It allows players to counter extreme boon builds, without making other boons useless-weak for all other builds.

Boon hate sounds odd to me: “Bro y u giving me swiftness in combat it increases enemy dps!!”. Goodbye to support.
I honestly think the bunker problem can be solved with a simple but reasonably drastic change: improve the Vulnerability condition. Make it twice as strong. Maybe even make it four times as strong. I always found it kinda lame that MAXIMUM stacks of vulnerability has a smaller effect than the protection boon (25% vs 33% respectively). By doing this, offense may very well have the edge over defense without resorting to raw damage increase (to professions that already have a lot of that i.e. warrior/thief). In effect this should result in a more exciting game.

Ohoni.6057:

There definitely shouldn’t be a trait that causes consistent bonus damage against boons, like “+1% damage for each boon on the target”

Hopefully not, because that would be a horribly crappy trait. The most you can do with this trait is 8% extra damage since there are only 8 types of boons (technically 9 but Aegis will simply nullify the attack). 8% extra damage to a target running every boon is so pitiful you might as well not bother.

I don’t necessarily think boon hate is a bad idea.. but.. I feel like it could be easily handled poorly. Effectively you are punishing people for using boons (which are supposed to help you). So there needs to be a very tight balance on it so that players don’t feel like they can’t use boons anymore. I also don’t want team mates getting mad at me for applying boons to them.

Also if it’s done via traits then I think it would be annoying not knowing who is using boon hate and who isn’t. Since it effectively is a damage buff how will you know if someone is using it? I think there needs to be a way to see who is using boon hate so that you can adjust your playstyle accordingly.

Something like +1/ 2/ 3% damage per boon is a terrible trait for people who use boons occasionally. However, it’s strong against boon-oriented builds who have 4-5 boons at the same time and stacked in high quantities.

So it would hardly punish people for using boons normally. It would only shine against extreme boon builds.

So basically, I get penalized for running a boon build…even though Anet directly stated in their update thread that “Guardians without boons are weakened” when they spoke about their projected role for each character…

…so If I play an Elementalist and use my Trait “Increase damage by 2% per boon on me” on water, an enemy will be able to have more damage dealt against me in the return to smash my entire build than the 2% I get per boon?

I am concerned about how I will be able to run a support build.

If you end support builds, you will not get any of my money in the Gem Store. In fact I do not have to lift a finger because the playerbase will post in every major MMORPG forum out there and site about those changes and people will rage quit on their own and guild wars 2 will become the laughing stock of the genre.

…and I like this game too like many of us.

I don’t want to tell people ‘I can’t boon you because you will take more damage from your enemies"

its almost like people ignore the fact that sigils exist.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Nullification

Setsunayaki.4907:

I don’t want to tell people ‘I can’t boon you because you will take more damage from your enemies"

I highly doubt every single player in pvp will use a boon-hate build.

corrupt boon / epidemic = you and your friends die

Boon hate? Hate the boons on your enemies? What a weird name!

It’s more like “boon love”, since you are going to love the boons on your enemies.

It doesn’t make sense in my simple little brain. Don’t these classes with all these boons need them to make up for disparities elsewhere? Turning buffs into debuffs on yourself I just cannot fathom.

Balance these boons you are finding too powerful is what my split pea sized brain is telling me.

Fletch.3572:

It doesn’t make sense in my simple little brain. Don’t these classes with all these boons need them to make up for disparities elsewhere? Turning buffs into debuffs on yourself I just cannot fathom.

Balance these boons you are finding too powerful is what my split pea sized brain is telling me.

Well the main problem seems to be with d/d elementalist. As described ele is suppose to be the jack of all trades class. Yet they perform better than classes designed to do one function. They have more mobility than a thief and can keep boons up better than a guardian, all while maintaining mobility, versatility, moderate damage and means to escape at will.

If they implement boon hate then it will definitely hurt guardian since they are suppose to be boon warriors. Such a mechanic would be adverse to their inherent design. So we’ll have a class that has slow mobility, no ways to escape and low hp who now takes extra damage for the amount of boons it has running. When in fact, those weaknesses I listed exist to balance the fact that they are made powerful through boons.

I don’t want to rant but, I think Anet really needs to provide a test server to let the players test the proposed changes before they go live.

Best i can tell, this “boon hate” is supposed to deal with multiple issues.

1. DD elem

2. provide an alternative way for thieves to hurt bunkers that do not make them walking tactical nukes (the interview basically stated that the current thief damage was put in to counter bunkers, but like foxes imported to deal with imported rabbits they instead turned on anything other than their “native” prey).

3. give warriors a meaning in SPVP.

Setsunayaki.4907:

So basically, I get penalized for running a boon build…even though Anet directly stated in their update thread that “Guardians without boons are weakened” when they spoke about their projected role for each character…

…so If I play an Elementalist and use my Trait “Increase damage by 2% per boon on me” on water, an enemy will be able to have more damage dealt against me in the return to smash my entire build than the 2% I get per boon?

I am concerned about how I will be able to run a support build.

If you end support builds, you will not get any of my money in the Gem Store. In fact I do not have to lift a finger because the playerbase will post in every major MMORPG forum out there and site about those changes and people will rage quit on their own and guild wars 2 will become the laughing stock of the genre.

…and I like this game too like many of us.

I don’t want to tell people ‘I can’t boon you because you will take more damage from your enemies"

Boon-hate is definitely anti-support. But then, GW2 is anti-support.

Nothing to see here, move along.

TexZero.7910:

its almost like people ignore the fact that sigils exist.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Nullification

Sadly there no chose on what boon it gose after and that its on a 10 sec cd. Now if it would go after boons that are stronger say a high might stack or stability then it would be great.
I would love to see dmg done to a person for each boon you removed. I would also like to see runes that buffs you a great deal when you have a type of conduction on you such as if you have weakness you gain a good reg etc…

I think people are overreacting.

A few points -

1. According to the reports, it will be a new trait type, meaning not everyone will have it. You will have make a conscious decision to be a “boon buster.”

2. By selecting a trait that does this, you will, most likely, have to compromise some other aspect of your build – i.e. make a choice to be stronger in one aspect while weakening yourself in another.

3. The “improved damage per boon” is just one example. Another trait could just as easily be “gain 1 second of aegis for every boon on the enemy you hit” or “summon a jagged horror for every unique boon on your target.”

4. We haven’t even seen how this is going to be implemented yet. There is a lot they could do with this – and it will probably mean more choices for character builds, which is good thing. The reality is, we dont know.

I don’t like the idea of a passive damage bonus. Instead, some unpopular weapons/weapon skills could strip boons.

I note that a lot of people supportive of this possible change play Thieves and/or Warriors.

As a Guardian, if I use a Mace, Greatsword or Hammer, my auto-attack will essentially give you Regen, Might or Protection, or give you a damage boost. A lot of my other attacks, and most of my utilities, will do the same, some more than others. Essentially all of my buffs, which are the centrepiece of the Class, will be giving me a debuff and/or giving you a buff. And you wonder why Guardians are concerned?

What will be the point of some of those Boons anyway? Using Regen or Protection would be counter-productive.

As already stated, there are ways to remove/steal buffs already in game. If you want to steal Boons, then play a Class/build and/or use a weapon that allows you to do it. If it’s not your preferred Class/build/weapon then tough luck. No Class/build should ever go without some form of counter and bunkers already have a counter in their lower damage output and the ability of other, specific, builds to remove their Boons. When Thieves or Warriors have trouble with bunker builds it is called balance. What I am seeing here is players saying “I can annihilate every build for every class except for a handful of builds that stack Boons… I want to be able to destroy every build with impunity.” That is the epitome of bad game design.

With that said, if any Class should be a candidate for something like this it shoud be Ranger or Engi, not Thief or Warrior.

IDK how I feel about this yet. Part of me feels like cap point bunkers need more to threaten their dominant positions on cap points. I also feel like dodging needs minor tweaks so that it is more necessary. This is a good way to do it if we are talking about Ranger/Necro/Engie. Thief shouldn’t be in this discussion. I feel like this could be a good way to bring those three up to the standards of the others which makes sense. Make them more viable, don’t bring the others down.