Guild Wars 2

I don’t really like it on a conceptual/design level, but then again there’s plenty of these things in game. That being said my main is a Guardian and I don’t think this will effect us too much ; we’ll just have to watch out when using SY.

Running a shout guardian doesn’t leave me with a very objective pov about this but yeah I share these concerns.

You do realize that Guardians aren’t the only ones that are gonna suffer from this right? Then again most players don’t really care too much for engineers.

Torqueblue.1945:

You do realize that Guardians aren’t the only ones that are gonna suffer from this right? Then again most players don’t really care too much for engineers.

Sadly, I agree. I don’t give a toss about engineers, because flamethrower has such a horrible flicker to it I avoid them whenever possible.

Ele’s catch it nearly as hard, with the attunement dancing, but for guardian’s, it’s the classes core mechanic, and what makes up for us having 8000HP less than the other soldier class…

Torqueblue.1945:

You do realize that Guardians aren’t the only ones that are gonna suffer from this right? Then again most players don’t really care too much for engineers.

There’s a lot of other professions that use boons, yes.

However, Guardians pretty much rely on boons, all the time. ArenaNet said themselves that Guardian is a profession that gives out their full potential when they got the boons up. Without the boons, they are pretty much not good enough. Boons are our tools.

Guardians got really low HP, and the boons are what keeps us up-pair with other professions.

I’m not going to say anything yet though, I think the Warrior buff was fair, they have been down in the mud far too long.

We’ll see if Guardians can get ripped by a Warrior after the next patch, then we can discuss things.

The problem is that many of the guardian skills involve giving boons to other people, and you’re in fact casting vulnerability on your whole zerg (only to enemy warriors, but eh)

That and the way to buff warriors isn’t just to give them more damage. They have other problems, and this is just sorta one dimensional as a fix.

80 Guardian since release, 80 Warrior since two moths ago. Y’all need some perspective.

Say you have 5 unique boons up. You’re taking 15% more damage. Is Protection among those boons? You’re taking 15% less damage. Do you not have protection in any of your utilities? Maybe it’s time to start carrying HtL again if you don’t already.

I’m tired of people whining about Save Yourselves and Lyssa runes being insta-gib suicide buttons. No, they aren’t. Because they both give protection, which means your net damage taken is STILL lower than it would be without them. Also, it’s a trait, and not all warriors will pick it. A lot will, because it’s a good trait, but not all of them.

Also, don’t forget – this is good for the warriors on your team, too. It’s not some magic anti-guardian thing that only the enemy gets.

In summary: You’re overreacting, carry protection.

Generally, this new boon hate trait is only meaningful when you have a lot of boons up. Which, well, yes, it’s true, guardians do usually have many boons up. However, protect can pretty much “nullify” the purpose of anti-boon warriors, and guardians still have aegis/ blocks against big attacks.

What guardians should be truly aware, however, is the warrior’s new signet of might. 3 unblockable attacks is a big deal, and guardians DO rely a lot on blocking. :P

foofad.5162:

80 Guardian since release, 80 Warrior since two moths ago. Y’all need some perspective.

Say you have 5 unique boons up. You’re taking 15% more damage. Is Protection among those boons? You’re taking 15% less damage. Do you not have protection in any of your utilities? Maybe it’s time to start carrying HtL again if you don’t already.

I’m tired of people whining about Save Yourselves and Lyssa runes being insta-gib suicide buttons. No, they aren’t. Because they both give protection, which means your net damage taken is STILL lower than it would be without them. Also, it’s a trait, and not all warriors will pick it. A lot will, because it’s a good trait, but not all of them.

Also, don’t forget – this is good for the warriors on your team, too. It’s not some magic anti-guardian thing that only the enemy gets.

In summary: You’re overreacting, carry protection.

it will highly depend on the luck of enemy thieves though. Worst case scenario – a guardian has multiple boons, thief charges first, steals protection, a warrior follows and does a lot of damage.
While it won’t ruin my guardian for me (I’m mostly a pve player anyway), I don’t think that the situation was handled in the right way. Why punish people for using boons? Couldn’t Spvp be handled in any other way?

Generally, you want strong mechanics to have counters. And, possibly, having a boon is still worth more than taking 3% more damage from a single source. So you can kinda say that this new trait, much like poison, weakens the effect of a mechanic, but that effect is still worth it.

What also happens is, the new trait and signet gives a profession the chance to spike the near-immortal guardian bunkers in pvp. It allows them to almost nullify a guardian’s defense for a few moments.

Why punish people using boons? Because bunker guardians and eles are too good and warriors need the help because they’re terrible in spvp. Maybe down the line it’ll be split between PvE-WvW and spvp, but for now I think it’s a good change.

Actually protection is a lot more powerful, because it reduces damage after all the damage is done.

That 15% Extra damage is like 7% against protection.

foofad.5162:

Why punish people using boons? Because bunker guardians and eles are too good and warriors need the help because they’re terrible in spvp. Maybe down the line it’ll be split between PvE-WvW and spvp, but for now I think it’s a good change.

just curious, did you try other classes in Spvp? Because I seem to be the only one on the forums finding it easy to play a warrior in Spvp O_O

Mmm I use a Guardian and a Warrior-I am not too enthused about this on either end for the following:

-For full DPS type of Warriors, they would have to sacrifice a bit to get to 30 Discipline (there are 30 Discipline DPS builds of course, but not all are, and if you use defensive traits with 30 Discipline, you’ll have even less offensive output-just more critical damage.) It is very much like those Grandmastery traits that turn defensive traits into offensive on many Professions-they improve damage, but you are already sacrificing a bit of it just by getting the trait, so there’s almost always a trade-off.

-The Warriors, while a strong Profession in many ways, still has some problems that this “boon-hate” won’t address, since it’s just a specialized build to deal with a few specialized enemies. To be honest, I wouldn’t even use the trait vs any other I could use instead, or a 25/25 build somewhere along the traits. At worst, it seems to force Warriors into a 30 Discipline build on PvP scenarios. IMHO, “boon hate” may make Warriors being more used, but just with 30 Discipline, which isn’t good for diversity (I have nothing against 30 discipline, but wonder what’s the use of this if every Warrior will use a similar build anyway, moving forwards? Must be hard being ANet. :P)

-Guardian is still powerful enough to deal even with a Might signet, “boon-hate” warrior-they can stun break their way out and dodge, push Warriors away (that lack stability, of course), use Shelter (I wonder how new Signet of Might will interact with it-damage for the first 3 hits followed by blocks?) and even with Save Yourselves, Protection will protect them quite nicely.

Note that I am not saying it is an “useless trait” as I am sure many will take this opportunity to devise strong PvP offensive builds around it, but I am sure Ms. Willa will ignore it and fight as usual as if nothing was patched, until more interesting traits are offered her. I don’t think people should be that fearful of it unless a massive Warrior vs boon-oriented Professions domination occurs.

No offense to the developers or anyone else, but I never thought much of this Warrior “boon hate” even while it was talked about and being tested. Hopefully they can prove me wrong and it’s strong, balanced trait that isn’t too overpowering.

To balance it out I vote to give guardians and engies boonless hate, where the less boons your enemy has the more damage those traits and skills deal. There now its balanced.

Mirta.5029:

foofad.5162:

Why punish people using boons? Because bunker guardians and eles are too good and warriors need the help because they’re terrible in spvp. Maybe down the line it’ll be split between PvE-WvW and spvp, but for now I think it’s a good change.

just curious, did you try other classes in Spvp? Because I seem to be the only one on the forums finding it easy to play a warrior in Spvp O_O

Not the only one. I’ve said it before – the majority of warriors won’t be happy till we have a “Press this to win” button. Having the best HP, burst, and ranged damage isn’t enough.

Are you kidding me OP? Guardians got MASSIVE healing power and MASSIVE protection update, and a full invulnerable elite at their disposal. The warriors will have to sacrafice 30 trait points for this. Really just QQ from someone who doesn’t wanna loose their OP profession.

stale.9785:

Not the only one. I’ve said it before – the majority of warriors won’t be happy till we have a “Press this to win” button. Having the best HP, burst, and ranged damage isn’t enough.

Warriors in pvp have a difficult time bursting against good players, especially since quickness was nerfed, and HP isn’t much compared to active defenses in this game. That makes warriors on the weaker side in pvp, and even the devs think so.

Let’s give guardians ranged hate. I mean, clearly, guardians don’t need to survive even when their only effective way of doing damage is up close. One of their “ranged” weapons is 600 range auto attack while the other is allegedly 1200, but anyone that’s played a Guardian would tell you this is clearly a lie.

In the end WvW/PvP will have to be split.

Remember, every class except the one you play is overpowered. Everyone else is just a noskill meanie that just wants to push a button to win.

People act like protection is constantly up

I got both a lvl 80 Guardian and a lvl 80 Warrior and I still believe that the warrior
is the better class.But..I never tried to WvW or sPvP in full zerker gear.
I save that for PvE only.
If warriors expect that they can now use their full zerker gear in WvW
and sPvP and get away with it because of boon hate mechanic,they are
in for a rude awakening.I believe a lot of the whining that led to this
boon hate came from Warriors that a.were going against def Guardians
in melee combat with zerker gear and b.made poor use of their long bow.
Guardians still have tons of retaliation,and more inc damage means more
outgoing retaliation,so good luck with the boon hate if you are not adequately
def specked and careless.
Bad warriors will still get facerolled by any decent Guardian 1 on 1.

It’s not like people are suddenly going to start running Warriors because there’s a new trait giving them a bit more damage against bunkers. As if that was their problem.

Aenaos.8160:

I got both a lvl 80 Guardian and a lvl 80 Warrior and I still believe that the warrior
is the better class.But..I never tried to WvW or sPvP in full zerker gear.
I save that for PvE only.
If warriors expect that they can now use their full zerker gear in WvW
and sPvP and get away with it because of boon hate mechanic,they are
in for a rude awakening.I believe a lot of the whining that led to this
boon hate came from Warriors that a.were going against def Guardians
in melee combat with zerker gear and b.made poor use of their long bow.
Guardians still have tons of retaliation,and more inc damage means more
outgoing retaliation,so good luck with the boon hate if you are not adequately
def specked and careless.
Bad warriors will still get facerolled by any decent Guardian 1 on 1.

This is exactly it.

I have a warrior, ranger, ele and guardian, all 80. Of them, the ranger is hands down the weakest (outside of PvP, where he’s a bunker, because it’s all that works there) and the warrior is, far and away, the most powerful.

Ele, outside of the D/D spec, is a joke. (OP spec is bad, but destroying cantrips and kitten boons wasn’t the way to fix it.)

I’d say the guardian was closest to balanced. Toughness and boons mitigating pitiful HP and lack of heavy offense.

Ensign.2189:

It’s not like people are suddenly going to start running Warriors because there’s a new trait giving them a bit more damage against bunkers. As if that was their problem.

No, they’re getting bonus damage against boons (which any guardian will have at least 2 up all the time, they’re standard.) and 3 unblockable attacks. Since one notoriously powerful attack has been known to crit for 24k, this is a problem. Making it unblockable, and adding damage for the boons that should be protecting us? It’s beyond a joke.

How is this different from skills like Corrupt Boon, Arcane Thievery, Well of Corruption, and all those other skills that punish the user for having boons?

These skills have been around since launch, but it’s only a problem when Warriors have something to counter boons?

It’s not “beyond a joke”. Warriors have a hard time hitting with their burst. The new signet will allow them to hit, at the cost of 180 passive power. You can still possibly dodge (evade) their attacks, be immune or invulnerable, move out of them or get protection. It’ll allow the warriors to pierce through some obstacles, but not all of them.

Katai.6240:

How is this different from skills like Corrupt Boon, Arcane Thievery, Well of Corruption, and all those other skills that punish the user for having boons?

These skills have been around since launch, but it’s only a problem when Warriors have something to counter boons?

Because, unlike the classes that carry the skills you mention, warriors have the highest direct damage potential in the game. An unblockable killshot that got MORE powerful because my profession mechanic automatically gives me regen and aegis? Fun, yeah.

Killshot takes like nine years to go off. You’d have to be blasted from within a zerg or something.

stale.9785:

An unblockable killshot that got MORE powerful because my profession mechanic automatically gives me regen and aegis? Fun, yeah.

And then your regen heals for a tick the next second, and compensates for that extra 3% damage? :P

And yes, it’s perfectly fair that an underpowered profession will finally get a chance to kill your profession.

quite honestly as someone who mains a guard I don’t like the boothate mechanic an as someone who also mains a warrior I still don’t like the boonhate mechanic; it feels like a convoluted method to address the warrior profession; I don’t want to have to feel like I now need to delve into some other trait line to be effective.

What I see is guardians overreacting and warriors being…well…stupid. Utility is what drags the warrior down in pvp not damage-it makes not one lick of sense to give this generously high dmg profession even more damage when the opponent tries to use defensive spells. Facepalm hard at ppl who compare boon hate on the warrior to things like corrupt boon or arcane thievery-show me a necro who can easily hit 18k+ dmg then we’ll talk.
Alright you get your unfair +12% dmg against say a mesmer with retal, vigor, might and regen up…too bad he’ll pull/daze/knockback/invul/teleport you to tears (where you will of course come and whine on the forums). This dmg increase is pointless; the signet is a step in the right direction (whether or not it’s the right step is yet to be seen…for obvious reasons) as at least it adds utility to the class.
I hope most of you posting are in your early teens-your brains and emotions have a very long way to develop

Protection mitigates most of the damage from boon hate anyway. Guardians practically have this up for half the fight. Plus there’s still aegis to consider.

ever think that maybe there’s a reason why boon hate was put in place… guardians and eles were doing far too much with all the boons they could get and now we have something (something minor) to counter that. As it is, guardian is the only class that can barely move and never attack yet still manage to kill their opponent. Things like perma protection/retal along with spammable block was too strong that it needed something designed to break it. Instead of complaining that the most op class for tanking got a slight nerf, you should be thanking anet for not nerfing your class to the level of other classes like rangers, necros, thieves, and warriors. Seriously, none of your complaints have any solid merit.

tldr ~ Both guardian and ele needed to be nerfed b/c they were FAR too strong as bunkers and dealing far too much damage without even having to try (guardian more so). Boon hate is warranted

randomfightfan.4091:

ever think that maybe there’s a reason why boon hate was put in place… guardians and eles were doing far too much with all the boons they could get and now we have something (something minor) to counter that. As it is, guardian is the only class that can barely move and never attack yet still manage to kill their opponent. Things like perma protection/retal along with spammable block was too strong that it needed something designed to break it. Instead of complaining that the most op class for tanking got a slight nerf, you should be thanking anet for not nerfing your class to the level of other classes like rangers, necros, thieves, and warriors. Seriously, none of your complaints have any solid merit.

tldr ~ Both guardian and ele needed to be nerfed b/c they were FAR too strong as bunkers and dealing far too much damage without even having to try (guardian more so). Boon hate is warranted

See, i was with you till you included warrior with the rangers. warriors do double the damage of other classes. rangers are stupidly broken, to the point they’re unwelcome in most settings.

I still hate the idea of boon hate – but purely because it attacks my classes CORE MECHANIC. To put it in warrior terms, say I got to do extra damage based upon you having weapon skills. Unfair, right? Because you can’t avoid having weapon skills.

That’s where guardians are sitting right now – being punished for something we can’t opt not to use.

Almost everything guardians do grants boons – including our core mechanic of virtues – they auto-spawn boons, and there’s nothing at all we can do to prevent it.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Are you kidding me OP? Guardians got MASSIVE healing power and MASSIVE protection update, and a full invulnerable elite at their disposal. The warriors will have to sacrafice 30 trait points for this. Really just QQ from someone who doesn’t wanna loose their OP profession.

Guardian’s have the same healing power as any other class that wears cleric gear……

Yes they have protection but warriors have close to 100% more hp than guardian does. In general warriors don’t use their defense and tactic tree. But tend to go berzerker and dps traits. Were as guardians use theirs, because the damage dealing trees aren’t very good.

A fully geared cleric warrior with 30 points into defense and tactics has about the same survivability and more healing power than guardian does. Guardian can not pop three 2k heals back to back for the entire party.

Imbune.5497:

What I see is guardians overreacting and warriors being…well…stupid. Utility is what drags the warrior down in pvp not damage-it makes not one lick of sense to give this generously high dmg profession even more damage when the opponent tries to use defensive spells. Facepalm hard at ppl who compare boon hate on the warrior to things like corrupt boon or arcane thievery-show me a necro who can easily hit 18k+ dmg then we’ll talk.
Alright you get your unfair +12% dmg against say a mesmer with retal, vigor, might and regen up…too bad he’ll pull/daze/knockback/invul/teleport you to tears (where you will of course come and whine on the forums). This dmg increase is pointless; the signet is a step in the right direction (whether or not it’s the right step is yet to be seen…for obvious reasons) as at least it adds utility to the class.
I hope most of you posting are in your early teens-your brains and emotions have a very long way to develop

Healing signet and adrenal health heals more than guardian healing passive. Plus perma regen from banners if you trait it or you can trait vigorous shouts for 2k heals per shout.

What I don’t get is this. When ANet looked at quickness, it was decided to nerf this boon by 50%, affecting all classes that used it. Now, there are classes, considered OP, that rely on boons, but rather than nerfing the boons, they create an anti-mechanic that’s only available to 1 class and a second mechanic available to one other class. Are only warriors and thieves unable to kill bunkers?

Aza.2105:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Are you kidding me OP? Guardians got MASSIVE healing power and MASSIVE protection update, and a full invulnerable elite at their disposal. The warriors will have to sacrafice 30 trait points for this. Really just QQ from someone who doesn’t wanna loose their OP profession.

Guardian’s have the same healing power as any other class that wears cleric gear……

Yes they have protection but warriors have close to 100% more hp than guardian does. In general warriors don’t use their defense and tactic tree. But tend to go berzerker and dps traits. Were as guardians use theirs, because the damage dealing trees aren’t very good.

A fully geared cleric warrior with 30 points into defense and tactics has about the same survivability and more healing power than guardian does. Guardian can not pop three 2k heals back to back for the entire party.

Your right about the healing power, but I see what he is saying. As a guardian you are so rarely taking damage that by time you do take damage you can just reset that to full health again and have all your cooldowns back up.

I do have 8 chars at 80 and I do play the regularly in WvW. If anything, a Necro would be my main. Although I play guardian quite regularly. I find there is something very broken about them and needs to be addressed.

You guys are Hilarious. Its perfectly acceptable and OK if no warrior can ever beat your bunker guardian in a 1v1 fight. But soon as a warrior gets a small buff to make it possible to win or the match a more even fight you cry foul. You just overpowered and want to stay that way.

sostronk.8167:

Aza.2105:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Are you kidding me OP? Guardians got MASSIVE healing power and MASSIVE protection update, and a full invulnerable elite at their disposal. The warriors will have to sacrafice 30 trait points for this. Really just QQ from someone who doesn’t wanna loose their OP profession.

Guardian’s have the same healing power as any other class that wears cleric gear……

Yes they have protection but warriors have close to 100% more hp than guardian does. In general warriors don’t use their defense and tactic tree. But tend to go berzerker and dps traits. Were as guardians use theirs, because the damage dealing trees aren’t very good.

A fully geared cleric warrior with 30 points into defense and tactics has about the same survivability and more healing power than guardian does. Guardian can not pop three 2k heals back to back for the entire party.

Your right about the healing power, but I see what he is saying. As a guardian you are so rarely taking damage that by time you do take damage you can just reset that to full health again and have all your cooldowns back up.

I do have 8 chars at 80 and I do play the regularly in WvW. If anything, a Necro would be my main. Although I play guardian quite regularly. I find there is something very broken about them and needs to be addressed.

That’s because bunker guardians trait honor and valor (healing and toughness) along with cleric gear. Warrior can do the samething but probably better. Shouts are on a low cooldown compared to meditations.

Anet dont care as long as their beloved thief stays OP.

Boon Hate for Warriors: +3% Damage for each unique Boon on the character

Protection: Inbound Damage is reduced by 33%

Number of Unique Boons in the game: 9

So even if you’re maintaining every boon in the game, the Warrior’s Boon Hate Grand Master Trait will not ever completely overcome the damage reduction received via Protection. This is also neglecting the fact that one of the 9 Boons blocks the inbound damage and disappears, making the maximum number of boons that you could potentially have on you while receiving direct damage to 8. Access to Vigor also means more Dodging, meaning more damage negation.

So yeah. I don’t foresee 5 man Warrior teams in tPvP popping up in the forseeable future because of this change. Nor do I think Guardians are going to disappear even with this change. All this does is give Warriors a shot of actually being useful in the current Boon spamming Meta.

Ratphink.4751:

All this does is give Warriors a shot of actually being useful in the current Boon spamming Meta.

We can’t have that.

I don’t think you’ll see a lot of boon hate builds. People will have to sacrifice damage to build those builds and most won’t. What you’ll get is a few people in each zerg that run that kind of spec. Most of the time it probably won’t bother you.

By the same token, guardians without it can be built to be totally OP and something had to be done about it.

As a grandmaster trait this damage boost isn’t even worthwhile until your target has at least 3 boons. I wouldn’t get excited about it unless my opponents consistently had at least that.

A Guardian with all his boons up is not going to die, damage boost or no.

I really do not think this will have nearly the effect some people think it will.

the main problem i see is that Anet said Guardian play will be mainly focused around boons. and that is the CORE mechanic. and they are introducing a mechanic sole;y targetd against a CORE mechanic of a certain profession. albeit only a couple classes get boon hate mechanics now.

but tbh, not that worried. will wait to see how it plays out. if it’s that bad, ANet will fix it again eventually.

What if all classes did more damage to Warriors depending on their Adrenaline level?

Or CC effects lasted longer on Thieves the less Initiative they had?

Or Mesmers sent to Downed State with more than two Shatters on CD are instantly defeated?

Basically, its not right to introduce a mechanic that specifically targets other class’s core mechanics. Countering boons and conditions is one thing (and there may need to be a DR for power builds so that Necros built for conditions can be competitive) and something every profession should have access to in a limited fashion.

But boons are designed to enhance defense, not become a liability. Boon hate is a hastily designed idea, and is the wrong method to go about countering bunkering Guardians and Eles in PvP. Really, the best way to counter bunkers in PvP would have been from the outset to have PvP objectives be random.

Having one map be point defense, another capture the flag, still another last man standing, etc. would go a long way to altering build priorities in PvP. With only one design as of now, inevitably the best build for the situation would be found and used by everyone.

Your example doesn’t hold, since you listed ACTUAL class mechanics, and Guardian’s ACTUAL class mechanic is Virtues.

foofad.5162:

Your example doesn’t hold, since you listed ACTUAL class mechanics, and Guardian’s ACTUAL class mechanic is Virtues.

It was to illustrate a point, arguing semantics is pointless. Yes Virtues are the Guardian’s class mechanic, but the Guardian is a boon heavy playstyle no matter which build you play.

You could pick any example for what a class depends heavily on, for example, a 10% slower attack speed per Signet equipped, hurts both Warriors and Thieves. Or a 15% reduction in total health per pet out, affects Eles with Elementals, Rangers all the time, and Minion heavy necros.

Bottom line is, introducing a mechanic that very obviously targets specific builds or classes but not others is bad design. Especially when the rumors of a 2 man balance team that mains Warrior and Thief float around, then you get a patch that adds boonhate to those two professions to take out their natural “counter” classes (Ele counters War, Guardian counters Thief).