Guild Wars 2

It feels like they’re trying to reintroduce some of the GW1 meta without reintroducing the diversity of skills we saw in GW1.

In GW1 we had skills that do bonus damage Vs enchanted foes (ie. boons), but what they overlook is that GW1 had other paths to self buffing – enchantments, skills , stances and shouts.

Enchantments (boon equivalents) tended to be “better” but were also the most vulnerable to stripping and hate, hence paragon protectors were very popular and viable, since they used nigh unbreakable shout buffs in place of vulnerable enchantments like a monk.

In GW2 this isn’t true; ALL buffs count as boons, and boon hate counts against ALL buffs.

stale.9785:

Take a ranger into wvw, or a dungeon, and tell me they’re good. All this focus on pvp, when it’s such a small chunk of the game.

read the next 5+ words, I said that exact thing. Was just replying to what you said… Although I do disagree with the rangers being crap in wvw. 1500 range and a 5000 leash range on a pet that can be nearly perma swapped makes them amazing in defensive sieging situations.

For the rest? Seriously, roll the other classes. Near perma regen and protection? Regen I’ll grant you, because our class mechanic grants it. Protection? Well, there’s save yourselves! there’s hold the line!, and, um… oh, yeah, one part of the hammer cycle, and a shield skill. Near perma… right.

trait for symbols, that aoe will be bigger, last long enough so it’s just finishing when the next one is getting put down, and the field it has gives even more boon. It is perma protection. Sorry you didn’t know how to achieve it until now. Even if you don’t consider hammer to be perma protection after that you still have multiple utilities and traits that give protection (like protection on aiges or block or w/e it is) and other weapon skills like shield 4. All that coupled with your bajillion blocks, you have no right to say you don’t have access to way too much defensive boons.

All the focus on how OP the boons are, when they’re in the game to put us on a semi-level playing field with the other soldier class – the one that has a higher base HP than we can get with armour and traiting. We have to use boons responsively, and now we’re going to be punished for same. (Someone who spams their boons mindlessly isn’t a challenge – they’re dead.)

it’s not punishment, it’s making it so other professions actually CAN counter boon heavy professions. Before, things like warrior, thief, and ranger would just get stomped b/c they didn’t have the tools

Think somehow people assume guardians trait into bunker spec to troll people. This isn’t true. Guardians trait as bunker because it’s the only way we stay competitive.

you don’t trait into it to troll people, it’s just a passive effect that comes with the build. Unkillable tank that kills people by just being hit is troll whether the player intended it or not.

Were I to try to roll a DPS based, zerker style guardian, I’d have decent damage, but I’d have 10k hp. Also, I’d have virtually no escape function, and, well, I’d spend my life facedown on the dirt.

You’d also be 500x tankier with that 10k hp than a bunker thief or a dps necro who has 20k hp. Despite having such low hp, guardian is the most naturally tanky class just b/c of the class mechanic. Thank goodness for these new counterplay options. I was tired of seeing guardians casually rolling around in wvw and never dying even when being chased by 3 or 4 people.

Randomfightfan,

Whoa, whoa wait a minute man.

Bajillion blocks? Guardian has the same blocking capability as warrior outside of aegis, which works for one hit. Warrior blocking skills last longer and you can trait to reflect projectiles.

Guardian: Shelter = Warrior: Shield Stance
Guardian: Mace skill 3 = Warrior: Mace skill 2

Guardian just gets aegis every 40secs, if you trait it becomes 30secs. And if you put points into the valor line you get aegis at 50% hp. That is hardly a bajillion skills. Would it be fair to exaggerate about warriors gazillion hp compared to guardians mere 10k base hp?

As for perma protection, writ of persistence doesn’t increase symbol of protection duration by much at all. Also, in order to have perma protection it requires the guardian to sit there and spam auto attack. Yes folks, sit there. Its lovely in pve were mobs have low intellect and will face tank you.

But in pvp? Players will just kite you. So you have to chase them down to get the third hammer hit in order to proc the symbol. In which you won’t stand in long because they will continue to kite you out of it.

Exaggerations do nothing for the topic, when you are trying to prove a point at least make sure its factual and practical.

randomfightfan.4091:

trait for symbols, that aoe will be bigger, last long enough so it’s just finishing when the next one is getting put down, and the field it has gives even more boon. It is perma protection. Sorry you didn’t know how to achieve it until now. Even if you don’t consider hammer to be perma protection after that you still have multiple utilities and traits that give protection (like protection on aiges or block or w/e it is) and other weapon skills like shield 4. All that coupled with your bajillion blocks, you have no right to say you don’t have access to way too much defensive boons.

All the focus on how OP the boons are, when they’re in the game to put us on a semi-level playing field with the other soldier class – the one that has a higher base HP than we can get with armour and traiting. We have to use boons responsively, and now we’re going to be punished for same. (Someone who spams their boons mindlessly isn’t a challenge – they’re dead.)

it’s not punishment, it’s making it so other professions actually CAN counter boon heavy professions. Before, things like warrior, thief, and ranger would just get stomped b/c they didn’t have the tools

You’d also be 500x tankier with that 10k hp than a bunker thief or a dps necro who has 20k hp. Despite having such low hp, guardian is the most naturally tanky class just b/c of the class mechanic. Thank goodness for these new counterplay options. I was tired of seeing guardians casually rolling around in wvw and never dying even when being chased by 3 or 4 people.

I snipped a bunch of the quoted text, because we’re both into walls of text, it seems…

Dude, it’s painfully obvious you don’t play guardian, and that you hate them. If you were to trait heavily into hammer/symbol, you’d toss out a bunch of team healing, and still get, best case, 50% uptime of protection.

You’d also do kitten all for damage. And that’s the mantra of the game, isn’t it? Burst! DPS over all!

Retaliation itself doesn’t do a whole lot of damage either – and what it does do comes firmly under L2P. You see they have retal? Don’t unleash hundred blades. Same for confusion (which is getting cried about far too much.)

If you’re dense enough to attack through something that’ll cause you damage, you deserve to die.

With the AH build – which is most of what you face in game, retaliation give you a max of 419 damage per attack against you. We have four easy sources, and four ways to trait it – one of which gets used in a standard AH build. So you’re facing a max of 10 seconds out of 48 of retaliation. For 10 seconds, we’re someone you don’t want to attack. (it’s generally 5, since you should be using “Stand Your Ground” instead of “Save Yourselves!” but i’m giving you the longer number to make it as OP as possible… )

Somehow, people seem to think we’ve got all our shouts, consecrations, and meditations out at once, whilst being traited to 30 in each line. It doesn’t work that way.

If we’re tanky, our damage peaks at 2500 on a crit. If we’re DPS, then we’re hitting, but we’re dying fast.

In a zerg, right now, I normally won’t die, I grant you – but I’m not the beast killing everything either. What I’m doing is making it possible for my team to kill things, without having to worry about being insta-gibbed by the folks who can truly put out damage. Also, do to my tankiness, I can tag a bunch of folks and stay relatively solid. If I’m dense enough to go head to head with someone, I’ve got to hope they’re set up glass cannon, or I won’t make the kill.

Also note, that scenario where 3-4 people are chasing a guardian? They may not be killing the gaurd, but they most certainly aren’t being killed either. Most likely, those 3-4 are uplevelled and not doing optimum damage either. Guardians aren’t these immortal tanks that people seem to think we are – we’re tough to kill, and boost the team – that’s it.

Honestly people are over reacting to this boon hate and thiefs boon removal. Thieves have to run sword/dagger for it and warriors are…well warriors…

declan.3968:

So do you really think people will run warriors specifically to kill Bunker Guardians?

Good. I don’t player Warrior myself but I have several friends who avoid PvP just because Warriors are bad there. Warriors will still be kitable, but now even bunkers will fear them.

stale.9785:

If we’re tanky, our damage peaks at 2500 on a crit. If we’re DPS, then we’re hitting, but we’re dying fast.

I hope you enjoy that 2500 crit in tank gear. When I go bunker on my engi the most I can hope for are 800s.

I have to wonder how some of the people in this thread reacted when they learned that Corrupt Boon was a thing.

Zaviel.1245:

stale.9785:

If we’re tanky, our damage peaks at 2500 on a crit. If we’re DPS, then we’re hitting, but we’re dying fast.

I hope you enjoy that 2500 crit in tank gear. When I go bunker on my engi the most I can hope for are 800s.

Are you counting your pets and other objects you throw on the ground too? I.E engis have multiple sources of dmg. Guardian has one. So its probably more dmg than guardian does.

stale.9785:

For context about how I feel about boon hate – Imagine if they added a trait that read “Deal an extra 9% damage to any character with an animal companion.” and imagine the response from the rangers.

They have an animal companion, they have no choice. Guardians have boons. again, no choice. 8 of our weapon skills add boons, and that’s just what I can think of right now. A full half of our utilities, and our profession specific mechanic all give boons. Boon hate is just wrong.

This was going to be posted in the warrior forum, in response to someone who is (again) complaining about how underpowered warriors are in the game. Putting it here, where it may be read by someone without a vested interest in the warrior QQ fest.

Pff in my opinion this trait we getting is not that good and if anet really thinks this will balance warrior out they are wrong

i hope to see more buffs coming

are we talking spvp here or wvwvw?

Zaviel.1245:

stale.9785:

If we’re tanky, our damage peaks at 2500 on a crit. If we’re DPS, then we’re hitting, but we’re dying fast.

I hope you enjoy that 2500 crit in tank gear. When I go bunker on my engi the most I can hope for are 800s.

Being fair, it’s not full on tank gear – it’s knights gear, zerker trinkets, zerker weapons, and then traited purely for survival.

Only reason my crits are that high is the crit chance/+ crit damage. My regular damage is pitiful, and I don’t have kits/grenades etc to raise it.

I gave the largest number because the fellow I was responding to believes guardians are unkillable tanks that deal imba damage. Giving him the highest numbers we can achieve, so he can see how sad they are compared to, say, warrior damage.

EDIT: and food – take away the food, and I don’t crit much at all. Then my attack peaks at about 1k. rawr.

I don’t mind boon hate too much, honestly. My gripe is I wish more classes had it. Boons are universal and boon hate shouldn’t be exclusive to a few.

My only concern is considering how interesting Necro’s boon hate is, it seems boring to give warriors a flat damage increase against people with boons. I hope Anet is testing these values out, since it’s supposedly in discipline, which already gives crit damage, and burst damage?

Last thing we need is warriors being funneled into glass cannons just like how backstab thieves are “encouraged” into taking “omg damage from behind. Omg 100% crit from stealth. Omg damage from might from signets. Omg damage with daggers. Omg damage from sigils. Omg damage if greater > X initiative.”

I mean, I’m more worried about thieves “stealing” my protection than warriors doing more damage to me because of it. Guardians aren’t the only ones who can get massive boons: So to have tons of damage to fleshier classes as it is might be more than a little too much. Especially in WvW where kitten’s flying everywhere.

So I feel it’s more unfair to the fleshy classes than to Guardians. If anything, Guardians can take it much better than other classes because easy protection.

It almost seems like Warriors are being “buffed” by pushing them more towards a thief style of gameplay. Oh well. WvW belongs to the warriors for a while, because the amount of boons that get spread around to everyone in big fights is going to give them between 12 – 18% damage on pretty much everyone, depending on the zerg. I guess that matches Guardians faceroll defense by giving Warriors faceroll offense.

My worries is that fleshies are going to get literally ripped apart because they can’t control what boons get placed on them.

stale.9785:

Zaviel.1245:

stale.9785:

If we’re tanky, our damage peaks at 2500 on a crit. If we’re DPS, then we’re hitting, but we’re dying fast.

I hope you enjoy that 2500 crit in tank gear. When I go bunker on my engi the most I can hope for are 800s.

Being fair, it’s not full on tank gear – it’s knights gear, zerker trinkets, zerker weapons, and then traited purely for survival.

Only reason my crits are that high is the crit chance/+ crit damage. My regular damage is pitiful, and I don’t have kits/grenades etc to raise it.

I gave the largest number because the fellow I was responding to believes guardians are unkillable tanks that deal imba damage. Giving him the highest numbers we can achieve, so he can see how sad they are compared to, say, warrior damage.

EDIT: and food – take away the food, and I don’t crit much at all. Then my attack peaks at about 1k. rawr.

You’re complaining about your damage, then compare your tanky/balanced guardian to a pure DPS warrior damage with no survivability at all? I mean, I’m currently running a balanced PVT/Knights mix Hammer warrior and I do around that much (2k-2500 crits) but with nowhere near guardian sustainability or survivability.

EDIT: referring to pvp here.

Aza.2105:

No, you had the CHOICE to run enchantments. Skills weren’t placed on your bar that FORCED you to do it! Its true that enchantments were probably a optimal choice for derv and ele but they weren’t forced on your hotbar. You choose how to build your character! Again, big difference.

A normal student also has the choice to get bad grades, but no one will want to do it unless they don’t know better. Having the choice between something bad and something good is usually not a good argument for this.

In GW1, the elementalists and the dervishes are balanced around enchantments. The devs intended for those professions to be that way. And players had no meaningful choice to go against that. Good players use enchantments with those professions, and enchantment (boon) hate is still fair in that game.

If this trait required some sort of skill to utilize, that’d be ok. If it required the warrior to actively do something, or it procced per boon, that’d be alright. But as it is, it seems like just a flat, no-brainer, damage boost against boons.

Unlike boon stealing (which requires a skill to do) or boon wiping (which requires a skill to do), this is a mindless, never-miss-that-opportunity damage increase. It’s even more mindless than a +dmg against burning foes, which at least requires the player to maintain that burning.

And there isn’t one profession that doesn’t rely on some level of boons at least occassionally. And that’s usually the moment where you need them the most.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Aza.2105:

No, you had the CHOICE to run enchantments. Skills weren’t placed on your bar that FORCED you to do it! Its true that enchantments were probably a optimal choice for derv and ele but they weren’t forced on your hotbar. You choose how to build your character! Again, big difference.

A normal student also has the choice to get bad grades, but no one will want to do it unless they don’t know better. Having the choice between something bad and something good is usually not a good argument for this.

In GW1, the elementalists and the dervishes are balanced around enchantments. The devs intended for those professions to be that way. And players had no meaningful choice to go against that. Good players use enchantments with those professions, and enchantment (boon) hate is still fair in that game.

Does this game play like gw1 to you?

gfox.6501:

You’re complaining about your damage, then compare your tanky/balanced guardian to a pure DPS warrior damage with no survivability at all? I mean, I’m currently running a balanced PVT/Knights mix Hammer warrior and I do around that much (2k-2500 crits) but with nowhere near guardian sustainability or survivability.

EDIT: referring to pvp here.

I am not referring to pvp. Nowhere in the forums am I referring to pvp. Outside of the small group who actively participates in the s/tpvp, nobody ever is.

I do hope Anet pulls their thumbs out and splits the skills like they did in GW1, so that the extremely vocal minority can have all the nerfs they want, without breaking the other 80% of the game.

DiogoSilva.7089:

In GW1, the elementalists and the dervishes are balanced around enchantments. The devs intended for those professions to be that way. And players had no meaningful choice to go against that.

Incorrect.

Dervishes had a number of non-enchantment defenses they can employ when enchantments are a non-option (the name eludes me but I know they had at least 1 defensive stance, not to mention the avatar forms).

Enchantment heavy classes (especially in PvP) routinely brought non-enchantment defenses along, such as tactics line warrior shouts or stances that could provide them with less easily countered defences to back them up when faced with an enchantment hating foe while attacks that leveraged against both were typically elite skills

stale.9785:

the majority of warriors won’t be happy till we have a “Press this to win” button. Having the best HP, burst, and ranged damage isn’t enough.

1. Thiefs have the best burst damage, as confirmed by the DEVs. Not just now, but they want it to stay that way.

2. And the highest damage ranged is Kill Shot, which is only available with full adrenaline and only hits one single target. If that targets dodges, the warrior just lost about 30% of it’s DPS. The ranged damage of a warrior is very much theoretical, there is a reason why you don’t see level 80 rifle warriors.

Aza.2105:

Randomfightfan,

Whoa, whoa wait a minute man.

Bajillion blocks? Guardian has the same blocking capability as warrior outside of aegis, which works for one hit. Warrior blocking skills last longer and you can trait to reflect projectiles.

Guardian: Shelter = Warrior: Shield Stance
Guardian: Mace skill 3 = Warrior: Mace skill 2

Guardian just gets aegis every 40secs, if you trait it becomes 30secs. And if you put points into the valor line you get aegis at 50% hp. That is hardly a bajillion skills. Would it be fair to exaggerate about warriors gazillion hp compared to guardians mere 10k base hp?

As for perma protection, writ of persistence doesn’t increase symbol of protection duration by much at all. Also, in order to have perma protection it requires the guardian to sit there and spam auto attack. Yes folks, sit there. Its lovely in pve were mobs have low intellect and will face tank you.

But in pvp? Players will just kite you. So you have to chase them down to get the third hammer hit in order to proc the symbol. In which you won’t stand in long because they will continue to kite you out of it.

Exaggerations do nothing for the topic, when you are trying to prove a point at least make sure its factual and practical.

focus 5, retreat, passive every 40s, active on top of the passive, invuln elite, basically invuln while healing due to the blocks, sanctuary heals you while making it so no one can get into melee range to hit you or shoot you with projectiles, trait so your virtues reset when something something. I know I’m missing a few things but I don’t play guardian (only leveled one to 50 something before deleting it… twice)so I don’t know all their stuff. Not to mention the trait burn while blocking and you still get retaliation procs off while blocking.

@stale, one thing you forgot to take into consideration. When a guard lays down a symbol it becomes a light field. They then leap through the symbol to give them 5s (pretty sure it’s 5) of retaliation. Lastly, I don’t hate guards, I’m just tired of threads like this where guards are saying that this 3% more damage per boon and 1 added ability on 1 weapon set (set, meaning the player is forced into that main AND offhand weapon set) will make them completely useless and need massive buffs to compensate for these slight nerfs.

Also about symbols, I agree they are hard to use effectively but even if your opponent doesn’t get hit by the 3rd strike, it still gets lay’d down, giving you a field to use and protection to utilize. The 3rd strike on hammer is also a blast finisher so if there’s any other field down before hand, you’re getting those boons as well.

I gave the largest number because the fellow I was responding to believes guardians are unkillable tanks that deal imba damage.

where the heck did I say ANYTHING like that? Never once said they dealt any significant damage if they were tank. I just said they were the 1 class that CAN kill someone without attacking. That is fact, not exaggeration. Considering that I’ve seen countless times a guardian rushing a zerg (strategic reason ofc but they should have died for this maneuver), break the front, and walk out alive usually with a few kills under their belt. Didn’t say they 100-0 someone, just they were able to keep some people pinned down long enough for their zerg to overwhelm them. All truth here and all backed up by personal experience.

Lastly about not attacking when retal is up. It isn’t that simple sadly b/c retal is up far too often (backed up by devs in the sotg thingy, rewatch it if you don’t believe me) and when retal IS up, the guy with the boon is still able to kill you. One last problem with retaliation is that other devs straight up said they want the player to be playing the game, not the UI. Retaliation is counter productive to that entirely.

Tallis.5607:

stale.9785:

the majority of warriors won’t be happy till we have a “Press this to win” button. Having the best HP, burst, and ranged damage isn’t enough.

1. Thiefs have the best burst damage, as confirmed by the DEVs. Not just now, but they want it to stay that way.

2. And the highest damage ranged is Kill Shot, which is only available with full adrenaline and only hits one single target. If that targets dodges, the warrior just lost about 30% of it’s DPS. The ranged damage of a warrior is very much theoretical, there is a reason why you don’t see level 80 rifle warriors.

Do you even have a single clue about Warriors? Kill Shot can penetrate its target if traited properly, thus hitting multiple foes, and you keep your adrenaline if you miss the shot so it is just a matter of time before you can reuse it sinds it goes on cooldown when you miss the shot.

Also if you use Killshot for DPS even if you hit your target you will still loose overall damage in your cycle, because loosing adrenaline is equal to loosing -12% dmg bonus from Berserker Power and Kill Shot while hitting like a truck has a dead long animation that won’t allow you to recover the lost DPS from the passive damage bonus and the time you lost using for using that skill.

Kill shot has 2 purposes if you play Berserker :
- Starting a fight by dealing as much dmg as possible before the targets engage you.
- Ambushing people while unoticed to take them down quickly and efficiently.

And by the way, i’m a rifle Warrior with a full Rampager armor set (aka Berserker cousin) and I can deal over 3K+ sustained dmg with my rifle without even including boons, vulnerability and my Volley into consideration. I maybe don’t deal 15K dmg kill shots, but I have higher sustained DPS and I also get more versatile fighting options.

To get back on the topic, you Guardians forgot to mention 1 big thing about Boonhate. Warriors will suffer even more than you will sinds they get acces to a lot of offensive boon while having no ways close to mitigate those extra damage taking with protection mitigation.

Again that change is subpar, it will help against boon users for sure, but I’m not convinced at all about this trait.

randomfightfan.4091:

@stale, one thing you forgot to take into consideration. When a guard lays down a symbol it becomes a light field. They then leap through the symbol to give them 5s (pretty sure it’s 5) of retaliation. Lastly, I don’t hate guards, I’m just tired of threads like this where guards are saying that this 3% more damage per boon and 1 added ability on 1 weapon set (set, meaning the player is forced into that main AND offhand weapon set) will make them completely useless and need massive buffs to compensate for these slight nerfs.

Also about symbols, I agree they are hard to use effectively but even if your opponent doesn’t get hit by the 3rd strike, it still gets lay’d down, giving you a field to use and protection to utilize. The 3rd strike on hammer is also a blast finisher so if there’s any other field down before hand, you’re getting those boons as well.

I gave the largest number because the fellow I was responding to believes guardians are unkillable tanks that deal imba damage.

where the heck did I say ANYTHING like that? Never once said they dealt any significant damage if they were tank. I just said they were the 1 class that CAN kill someone without attacking. That is fact, not exaggeration. Considering that I’ve seen countless times a guardian rushing a zerg (strategic reason ofc but they should have died for this maneuver), break the front, and walk out alive usually with a few kills under their belt. Didn’t say they 100-0 someone, just they were able to keep some people pinned down long enough for their zerg to overwhelm them. All truth here and all backed up by personal experience.

Lastly about not attacking when retal is up. It isn’t that simple sadly b/c retal is up far too often (backed up by devs in the sotg thingy, rewatch it if you don’t believe me) and when retal IS up, the guy with the boon is still able to kill you. One last problem with retaliation is that other devs straight up said they want the player to be playing the game, not the UI. Retaliation is counter productive to that entirely.

A few things to know is that Hammer’s chain 3 is not a blast finisher, that’s Hammer’s 2, and secondly out of personal experience while playing Guardian, guardians drop like flies if you have more then 1+ Necro and/or mesmer, if they’re(guardian) charging headfirst into a zerg. Also wrong about blocks and retal. Retal does not proc if you block or dodge a enemy, the best thing you can do with blocks is get defenders flame, which burns foes for 1 sec per block.

Edit: Also it’s funny how Warriors, Thieves, Eles can just escape with ease(Whirling Strike, Bladetrail, RTL, Stealth/blinks) when they come across 4 people, but a Guardian who’s in battle has to commit due to lack of mobility options to get out of combat.

What should be bigger issue for guards is blocks not “blocking”. Seriously without blocks guards are super easy to kill, if blocks no longer block guard needs new way to stay alive, ie better heal scaling on stuff or more vit.

Lucentfir.7430:

A few things to know is that Hammer’s chain 3 is not a blast finisher, that’s Hammer’s 2, and secondly out of personal experience while playing Guardian, guardians drop like flies if you have more then 1+ Necro and/or mesmer, if they’re(guardian) charging headfirst into a zerg. Also wrong about blocks and retal. Retal does not proc if you block or dodge a enemy, the best thing you can do with blocks is get defenders flame, which burns foes for 1 sec per block.

odd, thought for sure blockign with retal still did the damage, guess it was just burning I was noticing. Also my b on the blast on aa chain, you’re right it is on 2, don’t know why I forgot that. Last thing though, most mesmers and necros in zergs aren’t thinking that far ahead to take any anti-charging guardian utilities. Most of them just aoe the zerg and follow theirs with w.e is going on. If there were people paying attention like that then sure the guardian bull rush might not work all to well but the problem is that vs zergs, it does. When the build is strong enough to facetank a zerg and get out alive, it becomes pretty annoying when it’s in a 1v1 situation, esp pvp where bunker builds are unaffected where burst and dps builds are HEAVILY nerfed compared to wvw.

Ambrecombe.4398:

To get back on the topic, you Guardians forgot to mention 1 big thing about Boonhate. Warriors will suffer even more than you will sinds they get acces to a lot of offensive boon while having no ways close to mitigate those extra damage taking with protection mitigation.

^^I can get on the bandwagon against boon hate, but a lot of the arguments brought up are forgetting this.

The two classes making the most noise about this are likely the least affected (Guardian and Elementalist). With access to protection and aegis (at least for guardian), you basically mitigate much of what boon hate does.

On the other hand, this is basically a free 9% damage against Warrior who more likely than not, will have 3 offensive boons (might, fury and swiftness). With no access to protection, they’re basically chopping themselves apart where guardian just has to use a shout or an elementalist has to swap to earth, turning that 10-15% into something like 3-4%.

Again that change is subpar, it will help against boon users for sure, but I’m not convinced at all about this trait.

People who were discussing the idea of boon-hate after it was mentioned in the last video had some interesting ideas about better ways to implement it. For instance, someone mentioned Warrior mace skills bypassing protection, making mace a ‘protection hate’ weapon. It wouldn’t be a hard counter to boons as a whole but meld each weapon as a ‘counter’ to a certain boon so one can mix and match weapons to get a desired counter to a playstyle…

It’d also likely be spread over more than just one trait so it’s not like you can just pop it into a build and that be the central build with this advantage.

Again, I’ll say that I’m good with complete boon negation. Give each class one (that’s one – 1 – a single and solitary) skill that removes all boons from a single target.

If the skill names aren’t being used already;

Warriors can have “Skull Crack” 300 range.
Ele’s get “Mind Shock” 1200 range
Mesmer gets “Panic” 1200 range
Necromancers “Rend Enchantment” 1200 range
Guardian “Banish” 900 range
Ranger “Magebane Shot” 1200 range
Thief “Aura of Displacement” 300 range
Engineer “Dissonance Philtre” whatever grenade range is. (assume 1200, too lazy to open another tab and check)

Each skill has a variation of “Remove all boons from target” cast time 1.25, recharge 60. Make them a skill type that has a traited recharge reduction; ie survival for rangers, meditation for guardians, cantrip for ele, etc.

Gives everyone a fair shot at killing boons, without punishing classes/characters that use them. I’m more comfortable with facing “Crap, where did all my boons go?” then facing “What just killed me THROUGH aegis?”

EDIT: added what seemed to be class appropriate ranges to the skills.

With the introduction of boon hate, they should make all of guardian skills do holy damage. Which does double damage to necro pets and necros in death shroud. And hammer skill #4 banish should automatically remove summons and pets when used.

stale.9785:

Again, I’ll say that I’m good with complete boon negation. Give each class one (that’s one – 1 – a single and solitary) skill that removes all boons from a single target.

If the skill names aren’t being used already;

Warriors can have “Skull Crack”
Ele’s get “Mind Shock”
Mesmer gets “Panic”
Necromancers “Rend Enchantment”
Guardian “Banish”
Ranger “Magebane Shot”
Thief “Aura of Displacement”
Engineer “Dissonance Philtre”

Each skill has a variation of “Remove all boons from target” cast time 1.25, recharge 60. Make them a skill type that has a traited recharge reduction; ie survival for rangers, meditation for guardians, cantrip for ele, etc.

Gives everyone a fair shot at killing boons, without punishing classes/characters that use them.

Sorry but giving access to the same skill to everyone doesn’t make for balance…balance is dealing with the differences in each classes own way, not giving everyone the same toy…sure it gets the job done at times, but its just cheap and lazy…

whoever came up with the boon hate and unblockable attacks for the warrior is clearly crap at balancing the game or has a fetish for warriors

if warriors continue to get buff we might as well all play warriors.

i am sure the expansion for guild wars is => GUILD WARS : WARRIORS

I love how most of the inexperienced players cry about this. They go oh noes Im going to be hundred bladed to death now OMG. LMFAO

Simple reply to this is no. HB is terrible without Frenzy. Frenzy has been nerfed, ON first it take about 4 seconds to get a un hasted hundred blades off. Thats a long time. Also there is no way you will get hit by all 8 hits unless you are afk. 2ndly the only CC that a warrior has that lasts almost that long is throw bolas and its an immobilize. And it never works almost. You think you cant get out of immobilize ur kidding me.

This is my example of you guys. OMG that warrior is going to bull charge me haste the hundred blade me and becasue he is doing 10% more damage cuz of my buffs im going to die. Seriously learn to play already. Im sorry.

3-10% more damage is nothing. Most people know that food increases damage that much or more depending on the food. Sigils increase it by 10% if it is night time, or 5% or whatever. What you should be really complaining about is the unblockable signet that is your down fall not the boon hate. But like I said your inexperienced.

Warlord.9074:

I love how most of the inexperienced players cry about this. They go oh noes Im going to be hundred bladed to death now OMG. LMFAO

Simple reply to this is no. HB is terrible without Frenzy. Frenzy has been nerfed, ON first it take about 4 seconds to get a un hasted hundred blades off. Thats a long time. Also there is no way you will get hit by all 8 hits unless you are afk. 2ndly the only CC that a warrior has that lasts almost that long is throw bolas and its an immobilize. And it never works almost. You think you cant get out of immobilize ur kidding me.

This is my example of you guys. OMG that warrior is going to bull charge me haste the hundred blade me and becasue he is doing 10% more damage cuz of my buffs im going to die. Seriously learn to play already. Im sorry.

3-10% more damage is nothing. Most people know that food increases damage that much or more depending on the food. Sigils increase it by 10% if it is night time, or 5% or whatever. What you should be really complaining about is the unblockable signet that is your down fall not the boon hate. But like I said your inexperienced.

First off, please don’t assume that everyone hates an unreasonably mechanic is a noob.

Second, if it’s the proposed 3% damage per boon, that makes it entirely possible to nail someone for 27% more damage with an attack. Since warriors already have the highest attack numbers in the entire game, this seems a touch excessive.

Lastly, coupled with the proposed unblockable attacks, this introduces the possibility of some of the tankiest builds in the game being taken down with 2-3 attacks.

That addresses your post. Now, for my concern, as voiced repeatedly in the thread – I’m not worried that it’ll make warriors OP (though it has that potential) what I dislike is introducing something that targets other classes core mechanics.

stale.9785:

Warlord.9074:

I love how most of the inexperienced players cry about this. They go oh noes Im going to be hundred bladed to death now OMG. LMFAO

Simple reply to this is no. HB is terrible without Frenzy. Frenzy has been nerfed, ON first it take about 4 seconds to get a un hasted hundred blades off. Thats a long time. Also there is no way you will get hit by all 8 hits unless you are afk. 2ndly the only CC that a warrior has that lasts almost that long is throw bolas and its an immobilize. And it never works almost. You think you cant get out of immobilize ur kidding me.

This is my example of you guys. OMG that warrior is going to bull charge me haste the hundred blade me and becasue he is doing 10% more damage cuz of my buffs im going to die. Seriously learn to play already. Im sorry.

3-10% more damage is nothing. Most people know that food increases damage that much or more depending on the food. Sigils increase it by 10% if it is night time, or 5% or whatever. What you should be really complaining about is the unblockable signet that is your down fall not the boon hate. But like I said your inexperienced.

First off, please don’t assume that everyone hates an unreasonably mechanic is a noob.

Second, if it’s the proposed 3% damage per boon, that makes it entirely possible to nail someone for 27% more damage with an attack. Since warriors already have the highest attack numbers in the entire game, this seems a touch excessive.

Lastly, coupled with the proposed unblockable attacks, this introduces the possibility of some of the tankiest builds in the game being taken down with 2-3 attacks.

That addresses your post. Now, for my concern, as voiced repeatedly in the thread – I’m not worried that it’ll make warriors OP (though it has that potential) what I dislike is introducing something that targets other classes core mechanics.

“Class balance philosophies
We normally try to employ metered and controlled balance changes with each pass, rather than huge reductions or improvements to classes. We want to get all classes on the same playing field, and we want to avoid “whack-a-mole” style balance. HUGH increases and HUGE decreases lead to meta instability, and thusly, we try to make multiple small tweaks rather than putting in massive changes that we have to later correct.

When designing and balancing the classes, we try to make sure that class roles and identities stay intact. So, in doing so, we make sure that there are rules and boundaries outlining the capabilities and weaknesses of each class.

Warrior
We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions."

Not really It totally fits in with their philosophy.

even if the damage is 27% who is running around with 9 boons on ther? Seriously? 27% is still less than the 33% protection gives. Guess what warriors have no protection so basically your being reduced to a even playing field. people need to LTP and stop relying on over powered builds to win. As far “unreasonably mechanic” I kinda think somone with 9 boons on them and protection is pretty unreasonable mechanic. Throw a bunch of healing and condi removal a bunch of CC and blocking on top of that then expect somone to kkill them that pretty fricking unreasonable there. And now they are worried they are not going to be god mode anymore so its time to complain on the forum.

Heh, at least guardians have got protection. Engineers haven’t even got a reliable way to get that (we can get it at random with elixir h and toss elixir h) and still should support themselves and other via boons, especially with an hgh build.
And this is after people whined about the engineer hgh builds in pvp.
Seems more like a nerf toward engineers than other classes, actually.

Zackie.8923:

i am sure the expansion for guild wars is => GUILD WARS : WARRIORS

That would be so sexy.

stale.9785:

First off, please don’t assume that everyone hates an unreasonably mechanic is a noob.

Second, if it’s the proposed 3% damage per boon, that makes it entirely possible to nail someone for 27% more damage with an attack. Since warriors already have the highest attack numbers in the entire game, this seems a touch excessive.

When I read this the one thing that poped in my head is "Wow, if someone has EVERY boon up, a warrior will ALMOST but not quite be able to hit that person for as hard as his attack is supposed to hit. Almost.

Manuhell.2759:

Heh, at least guardians have got protection. Engineers haven’t even got a reliable way to get that (we can get it at random with elixir h and toss elixir h) and still should support themselves and other via boons, especially with an hgh build.
And this is after people whined about the engineer hgh builds in pvp.
Seems more like a nerf toward engineers than other classes, actually.

thieves and warriors have no access, none, to protection by themselves. The only way for thief to get it is from rare steals and teamates where warriors just have teamates. At least warrior gets block and endure though.

Stop saying it’s free damage too. Warriors have more “you now do x% more damage!” traits than any other class by far. Putting 30 points into discipline means they are giving up at least ~10% damage elsewhere that would work against ALL targets. Not to mention Brawn 1% burst skill damage for 10 trait points is like flushing them down the toilet.

You’re going to have to be attacking a target with at least 4-5 boons before you break even with the new trait.

a boon bashing warrior vs a might stacking dammage dealing warrior. who would win O_o

what dose a warrior have to give up in order to be a bunker buster.

Undertow.2389:

Stop saying it’s free damage too. Warriors have more “you now do x% more damage!” traits than any other class by far. Putting 30 points into discipline means they are giving up at least ~10% damage elsewhere that would work against ALL targets. Not to mention Brawn 1% burst skill damage for 10 trait points is like flushing them down the toilet.

You’re going to have to be attacking a target with at least 4-5 boons before you break even with the new trait.

exatly. not to mention this is a team game so even if your all trated out to smash a boon users face in what good will that do you vs some one who isnt so boon dependint?

randomfightfan.4091:

thieves and warriors have no access, none, to protection by themselves. The only way for thief to get it is from rare steals and teamates where warriors just have teamates. At least warrior gets block and endure though.

Are you really telling me that “a chance” of getting protection is that good? With this update, if the chance goes wrong, we’ll actually get more damage.
Our whole alchemy tree is based on elixirs, conditions and boons. Just see the minor traits.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Flask
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transmute
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix
Hidden flask by itself gives 4 boons at 75%…that means, 12% more damage. And you can’t disable it anyway.

Manuhell.2759:

randomfightfan.4091:

thieves and warriors have no access, none, to protection by themselves. The only way for thief to get it is from rare steals and teamates where warriors just have teamates. At least warrior gets block and endure though.

Are you really telling me that “a chance” of getting protection is that good? With this update, if the chance goes wrong, we’ll actually get more damage.
Our whole alchemy tree is based on elixirs, conditions and boons. Just see the minor traits.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Flask
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transmute
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix
Hidden flask by itself gives 4 boons at 75%…that means, 12% more damage. And you can’t disable it anyway.

Better learn to pick your battles carefully than and have backup. This is a team focusd game after all… more so now.

Boon Hate is just another gimmick so berserker warriors can feel like they’re doing more than spamming shouts or getting Kill Shots on upscaled level 20s in WvW. Just don’t build yourself out of paper and use your cooldowns wisely and you’ll be fine.

• Did anyone on this thread actually have a look at the warrior trait trees?
  Every single claim about boon hate trait is 100% unfounded.Why does everyone assume that a warrior gets buffed when in fact they will have to drop 20 to 30 % dps and considerable ammount of survavibility to pick the trait out.Really bad implementation and the tree still needs fixin after 8 months.

I strongly suggest to look things up before mindlesly assume things wich are totally not real before starting threads or answering on them.It is ridiculous how many threads about “OMG boon hate” and yet everyone still fails to realize the trait is not at all an added damage.It’s at best a tradeoff with already existing traits and a very bad one too until the tree will(ever?) be fixed .