Guild Wars 2

Hi, i saw/heard some of the recent stuff with “boonhate.” And I have to say this is one of the most poorly conceived ideas i have ever seen in any MMO.

So first of all, what is a boon in gw? It’s a modifer that buffs a character in some way, whether healing, more power, etc.

It is counter-intuitive put something in the game that punishes players for receiving boons.

Players expect when using these “boons” their characters will get stronger/better in some way, not suddenly have more weaknesses.

Now boon transfers and boon-stripping…that is a good concept because it works with a class like the necro.

Basically, “boonhate” makes it so you would not want to have boons…but that is the entire point of a boon…a temporary boost to yourself.

Now, to get to the root of the problem here. I know why you’ve come up with this band-aid solution anet, and many other people will recognize this too – the d/d mega regenerating elementalists. This must have been conceptualized directly to deal with them, but that is where the problem lies.

You are introducing an entire game mechanic based around countered 1 specific instance of a class instead of simply tweaking the balance of the d/d elementalist.

It makes no sense to a new player, let alone any veterans, that they are punished for getting boons. I know at a design meeting this probably sounded like a fancy and great solution, and i’m sorry to be that guy that was not at the meeting that raised his hand and said, “um guys, this is not really that great of an idea.”

But it’s not. On top of the above mentioned things, a concept like boon hate ends up punishing glass cannon classes/geared players more than it will the bunker players.

How you ask? Well, you came up with this concept essentially to band-aid nerf the d/d elementalist which is a bunker class, but you have to remember, characters that are traited/geared as glass cannons will still receive this “boon hate” when they use boons themselves…you see the problem?

These are just my thoughts, you’re going to make glass cannon people even “glassier cannons” if that’s possible, and people in general WANT boons because…a boon is supposed to make you stronger. A very simple concept.

It’s like applying a band-aid over another band-aid…how about rather than doing that you instead look at the bunker classes like d/d ele that may be an issue.

A better idea would be to simply add in more boon removal options to sigils/traits/specific weapon sets and/or classes, not something that makes you do more damage against someone that has boons.

That’s just my 2 cents.

What do you mean by ‘recent stuff with boonhate’? I don’t understand what you’re referring to.

Sounds like a few mixed points, none of which I’ve ever heard of before (and I feed on gripes posted up here)…

Specific example of being negatively impacted by recieving a boon would be a good start (something about the d/d builds?)…

Yes, most everyone agrees boonhate is a terrible crock of horse crap. Soon you’ll have to start worrying about standing around combo fields or eles because “oh noes, they might give me one of those dreaded BOONS!”

With how little control you have over getting boons, there should be no strategic disincentive for having them. Period.

I play the wrong classes and builds, there is basically no time I would have a problem with any random boon being dropped on me… or has my change of medication overnight led to me missing a key point?

I think the OP is a little misinformed.

The whole concept of a “Boon-Hate” build is to counter those classes that naturally Boon Juggle / Stack. It’s a good way of dealing with several classes/builds who are heavily reliant on boons and is actually a good strategic way of playing the game.

thisolderhead.5127:

I play the wrong classes and builds, there is basically no time I would have a problem with any random boon being dropped on me… or has my change of medication overnight led to me missing a key point?

Apparently you play in a vacuum because nearly all class boons apply to teammates as well. Additionally as an ele one of our standard traits gives us boons whenever we switch attunements, which is hardly optional. The only “option” is whether or not to run the trait, and with how limited ele builds are already it just pigeonholes us even more.

Additionally with how many combo fields eles have, boons get thrown around willy nilly with little choice in the matter, since simply using a move with a blast finisher in a field will give one.

TexZero.7910:

I think the OP is a little misinformed.

The whole concept of a “Boon-Hate” build is to counter those classes that naturally Boon Juggle / Stack. It’s a good way of dealing with several classes/builds who are heavily reliant on boons and is actually a good strategic way of playing the game.

OK this makes sense – its a build type that sounds alright, thanks – gotcha, the rest of it was just odd and off.

I was frantically trying to find a situation where application of a boon (as I oft play my guardian) could potentially kitten a friendly someone nearby and was cringing at the idea!

Jabberwock.9014:

thisolderhead.5127:

I play the wrong classes and builds, there is basically no time I would have a problem with any random boon being dropped on me… or has my change of medication overnight led to me missing a key point?

Apparently you play in a vacuum because nearly all class boons apply to teammates as well. Additionally as an ele one of our standard traits gives us boons whenever we switch attunements, which is hardly optional. The only “option” is whether or not to run the trait, and with how limited ele builds are already it just pigeonholes us even more.

Additionally with how many combo fields eles have, boons get thrown around willy nilly with little choice in the matter, since simply using a move with a blast finisher in a field will give one.

Nope – just couldn’t work out what was being said as, with my knowledge of the above being quite solid, it seemed to me that something different was being said, but thanks for jumping in and clearing up those fundamentals bro!

First, as you now know, “boonhate” is only supposed to be traited/ built for specific builds. Not every class nor every build will have it.

Second, the boon hate that the devs have mentioned, was not about countering a single boon every once in a while, like the current boon stripping effects already do, but about countering professions that can refresh their boons every few seconds for infinite times or build high stacks of many different boons and become extremely strong. The devs gave the example of scalable effects, like +x% damage per boon on the opponent, which should be almost irrelevant agaisnt characters that only have one boon every once and then, but strong at bursting characters who can “spam” boons on themselves.

Adding a few more boon stripping skills to class who don’t have them wouldn’t be a solution, because it wouldn’t counter professions who can spam lots of boons. Besides, it would take away some of the uniqueness of the mesmer/ necromancer. Making huge buffs to boon stripping wouldn’t be a solution neither, because it would be overpowered against builds with fewer boons/ not boon-reliant.

Probably just to counter pvp bunkers. Who could do with some counters. Or they could introduce an entire hex debuff system:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Scourge_Enchantment
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Barbs

All depends how things are done.

If it’s a passive X% damage per boon on the target increase then yea, it’s awful.

If it’s a dispel all boons and deal +x% damage per boon removed and put a debuff on the target making it so they can’t reapply boons for 5 seconds, then it’s a great addition to the game.

Most games have more ways to remove buffs than they have ways to put them on. A real dispel mechanic and counter to buffs adds more depth to the PvP environment and more depth to PvP is never a bad thing.

It’s all going to come down to how things are implemented.

Well, my main point is that all of this was essentially just designed to nerf the d/d ele bunker build…so why not nerf that build or tweak it in the first place?

And from what they said, basically you will take more damage or what not from having more boons, or something to that effect…so what if allies give you boons? Or you are a glass cannon that, you know, enjoys having boons?

Suddenly glass cannon players who do not have a high vit/toughness are taking even more damage than previously before from having boons on them…

Unless i’m not understanding this correctly…in which case apologies…

OP, go play some guild wars 1 and stop talking ... well, nvm.

Here is my 3 cents: counter archetype to boons are conditions (e.g. bleeding) and effects (e.g. knockdown, stun). You have stun breakers and condition removers for conditions, but in so far there aren’t many ways to deal with boons outside specific professions running designated builds.

Some professions are built around strong, persistent boon effects (e.g. guardian, elementalist), but some also have access to plethora of conditions and effects on their own (e.g. elementalist) - and when elementalist is matched up with a class that has little to no worthwhile boons in skill rotation, and that class relies on it’s own conditions and effects to deal with other professions ... elementalist obviously comes out on top, with it’s stun breakers, condition removers, conditions, effects and boons.

It’s not "elementalist’s problem", it’s "everyone’s problem" because eventually every class in pvp/wvw has to deal with an elementalist, or other boon-centric build or profession. So what you have here is not only general superiority of boons over conditions (very hard to remove), but also inferiority of conditions and effects due to the sheer mass of blocks, stuns & condition breakers.

You also have to account for boon-like effects that cannot be forcibly removed at all (e.g. virtues, elementalist auras), stability boon granting total immunity to all hard CC effects (e.g. blowout, stun) and dodge being not just a repositioning tool, but a great way to shut down incoming CC/condition spam or burst, on top of mitigating damage (all the while your boons still happily run in the background, with very low probability of being stripped before their cooldown runs out).

Boons simply need to be balanced out with the alternative cost that they can be removed, and that you can get punished for it - currently, for most of the time, boons are "fire & forget" instant benefits that generally do not go away until their duration is over. If you want a counter-argument, imagine how miserable a life for you would be if you couldn’t block, break out of stun and remove any conditions.

Conditions suffer from diminishing returns, the more are stacked onto a target the worse you’ll be off if all of them will be removed in one, single sweep (or worse yet, enemy character turns them into boons or gets hit points for every condition removed). At the same time in order to intensify the effect, you have to stack conditions, especially in a condition-oriented build, on top of the fact you need reliable way to quickly reapply all of them once they are gone.

Boon builds don’t go through nearly any of that, and the more boons you have the more powerful you are in exponential fashion, with no drawbacks except for very rare boon stripping skills.

If that wasn’t enough, you have cheap access to potent boon duration runes, whereas a condition build usually specialises in single condition at a great tradeoff of it being removed, and other physical-burst or physical-dps builds still need their conditions and effects to nail down a boon-heavy target, and have any chance of taking it down.

I don’t advocate "boon hate" as in "deal more damage to target with boons", but boon stripping shouldn’t be profession or build-exclusive - it needs to be an in-built mechanic in every profession and build, just as much you don’t see anyone serious running in pvp without stun breakers and condition removers.

As far as I’m concerned, this game needs more "cyclical" balance, as in Boon tank (bunker) > physical burst/CC (ganker) > physical dps/CC (team fighter) > condition dps/CC (anti-tank) > boon tank (bunker). Roamer could blend in between any of two build types, prioritising mobility and versatility over brute power and specialisation. I don’t foresee mobs in PvE getting boon stripping skills, so this will be strictly a PvP/WvW change.

I don’t understand the ‘’terrible concept’’, in Guild Wars 1 we had enchantments and some professions where able to strip those enchantments or cause more damage if your foe was under the effect of enchantments.

Seems like they are implementing the same concept in GW2, which is good imo.

Boonhate on paper does sound incredible counter-intuitive and silly. Hopefully, the real implementation of it won’t be.

I have to say I’m one of those against it, and I don’t even play guardian or elementalist.
I’m alright with boon stripping skills, like we have in most other MMORPGs.
But whenever it goes into the field of “added damage received for every boon” and such, then it becomes a load of bullcrap. It would make people actually not wanting to get buffed, which is really nonsensical.

Necro already has boonhate if they take certain utilities, more builds should have access to anti boon if they are willing to sacrifice something. Since it’s planned as a trait, I hope they make it a good mechanic like “effects on boon removal”

I think people jumped the gun too much when they read "more damage versus boon users" or "boon hate". To me it’s just fast-forward thinking, thought shortcut, not an adequate description of concept or mechanic to be implemented.

Despite all of that, in the old GW1 there were skills that would benefit from the user being enchanted (enchant=gw2 boon) or hexed (hex=gw2 condition), or the player’s target being under an effect of enchant (boon) or hex (condition).

I’d like to see some of these things back. A good example of current (but rare) implementation is Warrior’s trait "Unsuspecting Foe", it grants base 50% crit chance versus targets for as long as they are stunned. Broadening such trait to include knockdown, adding more traits like these for all professions (kicking off a boon, condition or effect on you or your target at the time of executing skill) as well as modifying more skills to work in this fashion without any trait equipped will create an interesting dynamic akin to gw1, where you needed to analyse your profession and build, as well as possible synergies with your allies and enemies to kick off more effects from your skills, on top of possible caveats the enemy could exploit were they to know your team composition or trait distribution/weapon setup in your build.

Currently said synergies are scarce (occasional combo fields) or negligible & uninteresting (5-10% damage boost vs targets with X condition). Adding more depth to combat would allow comparatively more skilled players to surface regardless of the odds stacked against them, simply by understanding vastly more about the game than their opponents. It wouldn’t iron out all balance issues, but it would put more power in the hands of players, making how you play even more important than what you bring to the table. More skill, less lottery please.

Agree with demosthene, how about skills that only chain when the target has a boon/condition, rather than just more damage. Chaining into a skill that add an extra condition/removes a boon/gives a boon, etc. Mixing the good stuff from gw1 with the basically better combat system in gw2…

Its always been in the game aka “corrupt boon”. Play with boons you might get burned! Its a chance you take for running that hot.

I think its really just to help out those classes too disadvantaged against boon heavy classes already, as opposed to “punishing” people for having boons.

Demosthene speaks the truth.

Atherakhia.4086:

All depends how things are done.

If it’s a passive X% damage per boon on the target increase then yea, it’s awful.

If it’s a dispel all boons and deal +x% damage per boon removed and put a debuff on the target making it so they can’t reapply boons for 5 seconds, then it’s a great addition to the game.

Most games have more ways to remove buffs than they have ways to put them on. A real dispel mechanic and counter to buffs adds more depth to the PvP environment and more depth to PvP is never a bad thing.

It’s all going to come down to how things are implemented.

Would be awesome if it could also reset target players computer .
Now THAT would be great addition to the game!

After playing a Necromancer, I love “boonhate.”

Muahahahaha! Yes. Yesss! Excellent, my predictable little Guardian/Elementalist. Cast all your boons. Let me corrupt them into conditions. Muahaha! MUAHAHAHA HA HAAAA!

In short, seeing a Guardian pop Save Yourselves! Is like Wintersday for me while playing a Necro. I wish I could do something like “boon hate” on my Ranger or Thief.

I’m not sure how it’ll all shake out in the long run, but I definitely have some reservations about it. Contrary to what someone above said, I think it might actually favor less skilled players and greater numbers. Combo fields are a big part of my guild’s play-style, knowing what fields to combine, and when, to give us optimal boons for any given situation, and it’s what often allows us to win out over greater numbers – especially when a lot of those other players don’t know what they’re doing! Add a bunch of “boonhate” into the equation and you end up with a lot of people who just have to trait for it and mash buttons – and there goes the advantage of the smaller, smarter groups. Sure, we can get more players on our side to trait likewise – we’d probably have to – but without the advantage of always wisely using the right boons at the right time, it seems to me, like I’ve already said, that this will maker bigger numbers of enemy even tougher to beat.

I’m over-simplifying things, I know, and of course there will likely still be better tactics for smaller groups to utilize to overcome bigger ones, but I am more than a little worried that this is the kind of thing that will just encourage more and bigger zergs.