Guild Wars 2

One of the best things about the original was tinkering with builds , compiling things from your primary and secondary skills to create something to test, either it worked, or it didn`t but at least you`d tried it.

I`m growing increasingly def up with the lowest common denominator, lets make it simple for the kiddies to play build system in this game. Equip this weapon, you can only do this with it …..crap ! Press the same skills repeatedly cause thats all you can do with this, crap !

This is a Sin/Nec build i was working on , just look at all those dagger skills you who`ve only played GW2 . Every class was like this, and once you put one together that worked, you saved the template, all it`d need to reinstate a build, including all the skill stats, was cut n paste the template code in.

Builds for every scenario, every class , different weapons, primaries and secondaries , real gaming .

From what I heard, they stopped it because it was a pain to keep balanced, and most (if not all) of the original GW1 team are no longer at ANET.

Balancing nightmare is how I think it was worded.

For as many skills as there were in gw1, the average ones were crowded out of skill bars by op/overtuned ones and then there were the skills that were weak/poor.

Removing weapon restrictions from skills will just end up with over half of them never being used. That’s not to say those skills are bad, just those skills would be crowded off the new op skill bars.

There needs to be some average skills ingame or everyone is going to stack aoe cc/heavy dmg/boon skillbars and make the game less about skill and more about spamming no-brain-hit-everything-get-everything all over the screen.

RyuDragnier.9476:

From what I heard, they stopped it because it was a pain to keep balanced, and most (if not all) of the original GW1 team are no longer at ANET.

Not sure what you mean. Dual classes is what was a pain for them to balance they said, but the ability to save builds was never an issue.

And you know what. They also said that one problem was that with the expansions in GW1 people were getting to spread out. So their solution for that was to start with more zones in GW2 than GW1 ever had.

The new teams have made some odd decisions before, so who knows what else is possible.

@ Balkarrie Legacy.9175

WTF is this build

A/W all the way!!!

(I extra created this picture cause I could not find a GW builder)

Justine.6351:

Balancing nightmare is how I think it was worded.

For as many skills as there were in gw1, the average ones were crowded out of skill bars by op/overtuned ones and then there were the skills that were weak/poor.

Removing weapon restrictions from skills will just end up with over half of them never being used. That’s not to say those skills are bad, just those skills would be crowded off the new op skill bars.

There needs to be some average skills ingame or everyone is going to stack aoe cc/heavy dmg/boon skillbars and make the game less about skill and more about spamming no-brain-hit-everything-get-everything all over the screen.

That`s the point, you COULDN`T run an op build because there were more than enough average ones , you actually contradict yourself on that btw , saying there were too many , but then that they`re needed …oh and don`t remove weapon restrictions because half of them won`t get used..uhm…so what…… give players the choice to use them or not.

You think there`s not enough op boonsharing builds right now ? My life how many more do you want with the revs, guards, druids, mes`s engies ? All of whom are massively op because they’re beloved of anets devs

Teniz.5249:

@ Balkarrie Legacy.9175

WTF is this build

A/W all the way!!!

(I extra created this picture cause I could not find a GW builder)

I was creating it for a reason, can`t remember what now , the 2 nec skills complimented the sin attack bar and created an unblockable heavy crit health steal energy reclaim , technobabble and pain inverter for a nice stun and damage reversal tagged on , zealous blades with a 20% ench and +5 energy inscrip. it was an energy intensive build, but the reclaims from various bits meant it worked really well from what i remember , and warrs meh….i used to batter wars in jq with my sin, without the old falling spider combo

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Justine.6351:

Balancing nightmare is how I think it was worded.

For as many skills as there were in gw1, the average ones were crowded out of skill bars by op/overtuned ones and then there were the skills that were weak/poor.

Removing weapon restrictions from skills will just end up with over half of them never being used. That’s not to say those skills are bad, just those skills would be crowded off the new op skill bars.

There needs to be some average skills ingame or everyone is going to stack aoe cc/heavy dmg/boon skillbars and make the game less about skill and more about spamming no-brain-hit-everything-get-everything all over the screen.

That`s the point, you COULDN`T run an op build because there were more than enough average ones , you actually contradict yourself on that btw , saying there were too many , but then that they`re needed …oh and don`t remove weapon restrictions because half of them won`t get used..uhm…so what…… give players the choice to use them or not.

You think there`s not enough op boonsharing builds right now ? My life how many more do you want with the revs, guards, druids, mes`s engies ? All of whom are massively op because they’re beloved of anets devs

You must have been playing a different version of GW1 than I ever did: there were tons of OP’d builds, but worse: if you weren’t into theorycrafting, it was all-too-easy to come up with _under_powered builds, since there were tons and tons of bad ones possible with so many options.

When I first heard about GW2’s system, I thought it was going to be terrible: skills being limited by choice of weapon, one of the utilities forced to be from a tiny set of healing skills, no dual profs, and no way to adjust the power of our trait lines… that sounded awful.

Still, I kept an open mind and now I find the current system to be more adaptable and more fun, because skilled play matters more than skilled-choice of builds. Plus, it’s much, much easier to help others out and support them.

In short, I don’t want to see the GW1 system back in any of its aspects (except, of course: we should have been able to save builds at launch).

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Justine.6351:

Balancing nightmare is how I think it was worded.

For as many skills as there were in gw1, the average ones were crowded out of skill bars by op/overtuned ones and then there were the skills that were weak/poor.

Removing weapon restrictions from skills will just end up with over half of them never being used. That’s not to say those skills are bad, just those skills would be crowded off the new op skill bars.

There needs to be some average skills ingame or everyone is going to stack aoe cc/heavy dmg/boon skillbars and make the game less about skill and more about spamming no-brain-hit-everything-get-everything all over the screen.

That`s the point, you COULDN`T run an op build because there were more than enough average ones , you actually contradict yourself on that btw , saying there were too many , but then that they`re needed …oh and don`t remove weapon restrictions because half of them won`t get used..uhm…so what…… give players the choice to use them or not.

You think there`s not enough op boonsharing builds right now ? My life how many more do you want with the revs, guards, druids, mes`s engies ? All of whom are massively op because they’re beloved of anets devs

I think you should slow down and read the responses.

Removing the weapon restriction allows players to weed out the average skills in favor of better ones, effectively removing the average/bad skills from play thus reducing the number of skills in game. In gw1 they could have removed 50% of the skills and it would have had very little impact.

I’m not for removing weapon restrictions. But I would like to see a system and/or traits that affect weapon skills more interestingly beyond -20% recharge.

Justine.6351:

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Justine.6351:

Balancing nightmare is how I think it was worded.

For as many skills as there were in gw1, the average ones were crowded out of skill bars by op/overtuned ones and then there were the skills that were weak/poor.

Removing weapon restrictions from skills will just end up with over half of them never being used. That’s not to say those skills are bad, just those skills would be crowded off the new op skill bars.

There needs to be some average skills ingame or everyone is going to stack aoe cc/heavy dmg/boon skillbars and make the game less about skill and more about spamming no-brain-hit-everything-get-everything all over the screen.

That`s the point, you COULDN`T run an op build because there were more than enough average ones , you actually contradict yourself on that btw , saying there were too many , but then that they`re needed …oh and don`t remove weapon restrictions because half of them won`t get used..uhm…so what…… give players the choice to use them or not.

You think there`s not enough op boonsharing builds right now ? My life how many more do you want with the revs, guards, druids, mes`s engies ? All of whom are massively op because they’re beloved of anets devs

I think you should slow down and read the responses.

Removing the weapon restriction allows players to weed out the average skills in favor of better ones, effectively removing the average/bad skills from play thus reducing the number of skills in game. In gw1 they could have removed 50% of the skills and it would have had very little impact.

I’m not for removing weapon restrictions. But I would like to see a system and/or traits that affect weapon skills more interestingly beyond -20% recharge.

Actually it doesn`t mean that , for the secondary builds to be properly effective in GW1 you often had to reassign skill points from your primary lines, reducing their effectiveness , additionally you`d never be able to max out the secondary lines .

Secondly the chances are you didn`t have every single skill for every single secondary class you had on a character .

Thirdly those op builds quite often relied on certain pve skills that didn`t work in the pvp areas like JQ , so the builds didn`t work either.

Pic is a ranger build, one of my heavy crit / interrupt builds for JQ , far as i`m aware no one else ran it , but it trashed casters and wars in jq regularly , maxed out trait line at 16 for marks, skill slot gets to 18 , bowgrip gets it to 19 ..still not hit 20 yet though and thats a PURE Primary only build.

Talk about weeding out poorer skills for better ones, they`ve cut the skills available by how much, and you don`t think that the better ones out of whats left don`t get used ahead of everything else? They`ve NOT improved the skill situation at all, just removed any chance of any kitten originality and variation in it , lowest common denominator thinking rules , make it for the dumbest kid possible to avoid him having to think for himself , like everything for the sheep millennials who need to be led by the nose to an original ( by someone else ) thought .

I agree, GW2, while a fun game, is very watered down when compared to the original.

It’s like the WoW version of GW1.

You can’t bring something back which was never in the game to start with.

Gw1 is a much(way much) more skilled game than gw2.

On gw2 players just need to know they do alot of damage, it is spammable, and if it is aoe the better.
It is a very unskilled game for unskilled players… it should not be even on esports..

Gw2 is ment to be very noob friendly.. look at ranger example from gw1 where:
players needed to know wich bow they would use in the situation.

“There are five types of bows, and each has different advantages and disadvantages. The longbow has a medium attack speed, long range, and medium accuracy. The flatbow has a fast attack speed, long range, but poor accuracy. The horn bow has a slow attack speed, medium range, medium accuracy, and 10% armor penetration. The recurve bow has a medium attack speed, medium range and good accuracy. The short bow has a quick attack speed, short range, and good accuracy. "

Source : https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bow

Rangers/mesmer interrupting, shutdowns, real team work, was required team spikes instead of 1 players can burst them all(gw2 version).

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Justine.6351:

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Justine.6351:

Balancing nightmare is how I think it was worded.

For as many skills as there were in gw1, the average ones were crowded out of skill bars by op/overtuned ones and then there were the skills that were weak/poor.

Removing weapon restrictions from skills will just end up with over half of them never being used. That’s not to say those skills are bad, just those skills would be crowded off the new op skill bars.

There needs to be some average skills ingame or everyone is going to stack aoe cc/heavy dmg/boon skillbars and make the game less about skill and more about spamming no-brain-hit-everything-get-everything all over the screen.

That`s the point, you COULDN`T run an op build because there were more than enough average ones , you actually contradict yourself on that btw , saying there were too many , but then that they`re needed …oh and don`t remove weapon restrictions because half of them won`t get used..uhm…so what…… give players the choice to use them or not.

You think there`s not enough op boonsharing builds right now ? My life how many more do you want with the revs, guards, druids, mes`s engies ? All of whom are massively op because they’re beloved of anets devs

I think you should slow down and read the responses.

Removing the weapon restriction allows players to weed out the average skills in favor of better ones, effectively removing the average/bad skills from play thus reducing the number of skills in game. In gw1 they could have removed 50% of the skills and it would have had very little impact.

I’m not for removing weapon restrictions. But I would like to see a system and/or traits that affect weapon skills more interestingly beyond -20% recharge.

Actually it doesn`t mean that , for the secondary builds to be properly effective in GW1 you often had to reassign skill points from your primary lines, reducing their effectiveness , additionally you`d never be able to max out the secondary lines .

Secondly the chances are you didn`t have every single skill for every single secondary class you had on a character .

Thirdly those op builds quite often relied on certain pve skills that didn`t work in the pvp areas like JQ , so the builds didn`t work either.

Pic is a ranger build, one of my heavy crit / interrupt builds for JQ , far as i`m aware no one else ran it , but it trashed casters and wars in jq regularly , maxed out trait line at 16 for marks, skill slot gets to 18 , bowgrip gets it to 19 ..still not hit 20 yet though and thats a PURE Primary only build.

Talk about weeding out poorer skills for better ones, they`ve cut the skills available by how much, and you don`t think that the better ones out of whats left don`t get used ahead of everything else? They`ve NOT improved the skill situation at all, just removed any chance of any kitten originality and variation in it , lowest common denominator thinking rules , make it for the dumbest kid possible to avoid him having to think for himself , like everything for the sheep millennials who need to be led by the nose to an original ( by someone else ) thought .

ok?
So you want skillbars stacked with aoe spamming hard dmg and cc. Cause that’s what will happen.

Aeolus.3615:

Gw1 is a much(way much) more skilled game than gw2.

On gw2 players just need to know they do alot of damage, it is spammable, and if it is aoe the better.
It is a very unskilled game for unskilled players… it should not be even on esports..

Gw2 is ment to be very noob friendly.. look at ranger example from gw1 where:
players needed to know wich bow they would use in the situation.

Source : https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bow

+1 to this. This is the main reason behind the skill-cut. They wanted to make an MMO for the Average Joes on the cost of loosing some hardcore GW1 player.

Money talks.

Of course they had to make GW2 stupid proof. 95% of the game can be done running naked with a great sword spamming 1 and maybe 2.

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Justine.6351:

Balancing nightmare is how I think it was worded.

For as many skills as there were in gw1, the average ones were crowded out of skill bars by op/overtuned ones and then there were the skills that were weak/poor.

Removing weapon restrictions from skills will just end up with over half of them never being used. That’s not to say those skills are bad, just those skills would be crowded off the new op skill bars.

There needs to be some average skills ingame or everyone is going to stack aoe cc/heavy dmg/boon skillbars and make the game less about skill and more about spamming no-brain-hit-everything-get-everything all over the screen.

That`s the point, you COULDN`T run an op build because there were more than enough average ones , you actually contradict yourself on that btw , saying there were too many , but then that they`re needed …oh and don`t remove weapon restrictions because half of them won`t get used..uhm…so what…… give players the choice to use them or not.

You think there`s not enough op boonsharing builds right now ? My life how many more do you want with the revs, guards, druids, mes`s engies ? All of whom are massively op because they’re beloved of anets devs

You must have been playing a different version of GW1 than I ever did: there were tons of OP’d builds, but worse: if you weren’t into theorycrafting, it was all-too-easy to come up with _under_powered builds, since there were tons and tons of bad ones possible with so many options.

When I first heard about GW2’s system, I thought it was going to be terrible: skills being limited by choice of weapon, one of the utilities forced to be from a tiny set of healing skills, no dual profs, and no way to adjust the power of our trait lines… that sounded awful.

Still, I kept an open mind and now I find the current system to be more adaptable and more fun, because skilled play matters more than skilled-choice of builds. Plus, it’s much, much easier to help others out and support them.

In short, I don’t want to see the GW1 system back in any of its aspects (except, of course: we should have been able to save builds at launch).

Aww bless, you weren`t into making your own builds up so prefer to be told what you can use , so therefore no one should have the option to make their own builds up . Some of us enjoyed that experimentation , because actually, it IS part of playing ! As for skilled playing, yeah more macros really improved that eh 20 button gaming mice..yeah thats skill …

Well I was into making my own builds and I still think the Guild Wars 2 system is better for most people. The problem is, too many people came into Guild Wars 1, built crappy characters, and left because they didn’t know what was going on. And that’s not good for the game.

One of the biggest things any MMORPG can do for the game and its players is to remove barriers to entry.

Guild Wars 1 was a niche game. Guild Wars 2 is less of a niche game, partly because barriers to playing the game have been removed.

I enjoyed making builds, but I don’t think it was great for the game over all, even though I personally enjoyed it.

In Guild Wars 2, which skills linked to weapons, at least everyone has a chance to play the game, even if they don’t focus on builds.

This has nothing to do with freedom. It has everything to do with success.

One of the things I loved most about GW1 was the huge variety of skills and the, sometimes unexpected, interaction between skills from different professions. Balance was not a problem in PvE and those skills and builds made it more fun imho.

I wholeheartedly agree with Illconceived Was Na.

The GW2 skill system is much more user friendly. It feels much more “grab and go”- no matter what you choose you can’t run into too many problems. I’d argue that gear/stats is much more important in your build, survivability and damage output than your skills.

I like the fact that it’s easy to make your own build in GW2- for me it really wasn’t fun having to search sites for builds that were incredibly situational and finnicky. Skills in GW1 often relied upon each other heavily meaning it was difficult to just switch out one skill for another one for a certain fight. I like how I know my skills inside out in GW2 and can quickly swap out utilities without worrying how it will impact the rest of my build.

I think it is unreasonable to ask for a massive overhaul of the GW2 system in favour for a system that was used in a previous (and very different) game. GW2 has marketed itself as a casual, “play how you want” game and I don’t think the GW1 skill system fits that ideal. You have to ask yourself what benefit an overhaul has (in business terms)- do you honestly think that it would draw more players in and keep the newer ones interested?

But one thing that would be really cool to bring back in some shape or form… skill hunting. I really did appreciate that part of GW1. It was nice to go on a little adventure to find a better version of a skill that you already have. I liked downloading a template, seeing I have 5 blank spots and having to work to fill them. I guess we have that to some extent with the elite specs, and I’m not sure how A-net would be able to work in skill hunting in general… but I just like adventuring :P

Crimson Clouds.4853:

But one thing that would be really cool to bring back in some shape or form… skill hunting. I really did appreciate that part of GW1. It was nice to go on a little adventure to find a better version of a skill that you already have. I liked downloading a template, seeing I have 5 blank spots and having to work to fill them. I guess we have that to some extent with the elite specs, and I’m not sure how A-net would be able to work in skill hunting in general… but I just like adventuring :P

NO.

Nonono.

They tried that with the first trait rework. It was horrible and didn’t work. Even if they pertained it to skills this time, it still wouldn’t (wait times for events to spawn, wvw wanting alternate ways to get them, etc).

Just, let the capture system go

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Justine.6351:

Balancing nightmare is how I think it was worded.

For as many skills as there were in gw1, the average ones were crowded out of skill bars by op/overtuned ones and then there were the skills that were weak/poor.

Removing weapon restrictions from skills will just end up with over half of them never being used. That’s not to say those skills are bad, just those skills would be crowded off the new op skill bars.

There needs to be some average skills ingame or everyone is going to stack aoe cc/heavy dmg/boon skillbars and make the game less about skill and more about spamming no-brain-hit-everything-get-everything all over the screen.

That`s the point, you COULDN`T run an op build because there were more than enough average ones , you actually contradict yourself on that btw , saying there were too many , but then that they`re needed …oh and don`t remove weapon restrictions because half of them won`t get used..uhm…so what…… give players the choice to use them or not.

You think there`s not enough op boonsharing builds right now ? My life how many more do you want with the revs, guards, druids, mes`s engies ? All of whom are massively op because they’re beloved of anets devs

You must have been playing a different version of GW1 than I ever did: there were tons of OP’d builds, but worse: if you weren’t into theorycrafting, it was all-too-easy to come up with _under_powered builds, since there were tons and tons of bad ones possible with so many options.

When I first heard about GW2’s system, I thought it was going to be terrible: skills being limited by choice of weapon, one of the utilities forced to be from a tiny set of healing skills, no dual profs, and no way to adjust the power of our trait lines… that sounded awful.

Still, I kept an open mind and now I find the current system to be more adaptable and more fun, because skilled play matters more than skilled-choice of builds. Plus, it’s much, much easier to help others out and support them.

In short, I don’t want to see the GW1 system back in any of its aspects (except, of course: we should have been able to save builds at launch).

Aww bless, you weren`t into making your own builds up so prefer to be told what you can use , so therefore no one should have the option to make their own builds up . Some of us enjoyed that experimentation , because actually, it IS part of playing ! As for skilled playing, yeah more macros really improved that eh 20 button gaming mice..yeah thats skill …

Aww, bless: you should re-read what I wrote. I made up all my own builds. Not sure why you brought up macros — maybe you use them?

I’m glad you enjoyed experimentation (I did too) and I agree that it’s an important part of gaming. However, it’s not part of skilled combat; just skilled preparation — your build is fixed in GW1 once you’re in an instance.

Of course it’s true that GW1 has mathematically far more build combinations than GW1. The problem was that most of them were bad, even terrible. And lots of players aren’t able to see just how bad until they grow discouraged.

If you want to remember GW1 fondly as more fun, by all means go ahead. Much as I liked it, I hope to never see that system again in the GW franchise

Crimson Clouds.4853, Anet tried that in the past, people didnt liked since they had to hunt a few traits.

Imo would be nice if Anet added more weapon skills, to hunt, so we can change or have a bit of diversity on weapons, the issue is they cant balance what they actually have, so im asking for the impossible….

Ah yes, I remember that now.

Serophous and Aeolus: You guys are right- I think I banished that mess from my memories. I think the problem with that was that your core skills were locked behind boss kills. At least in GW1 there were so many skills to choose from, there were sort of work-arounds if you hadn’t gotten the exact one you needed yet.

Maybe they could do something more with racial skills- perhaps opening a skill hunt option for races to find and learn the the other races’ skills. At least then they could be balanced more to be more viable that way, too.

Vayne.8563:

Well I was into making my own builds and I still think the Guild Wars 2 system is better for most people. The problem is, too many people came into Guild Wars 1, built crappy characters, and left because they didn’t know what was going on. And that’s not good for the game.

One of the biggest things any MMORPG can do for the game and its players is to remove barriers to entry.

Guild Wars 1 was a niche game. Guild Wars 2 is less of a niche game, partly because barriers to playing the game have been removed.

I enjoyed making builds, but I don’t think it was great for the game over all, even though I personally enjoyed it.

In Guild Wars 2, which skills linked to weapons, at least everyone has a chance to play the game, even if they don’t focus on builds.

This has nothing to do with freedom. It has everything to do with success.

GW1 was a niche game but it was infinitely more successful than ArenaNet dared believe. They said so themselves, not with those words, but they were amazed at their own unexpected success.

Considering the cost of GW2, which was a much more ambitious game to make for sure, I really don’t know if GW2 really was a better deal for ArenaNet. I don’t dare make such an assumption. I think more people have played GW2 but I have no idea how successful in terms of actual profit the current game has been for them.

The expansions in GW1 did very well for them and at the time they wanted to make a more ambitious game fueled by their success at the time. Players were requesting more things to be put into GW1 and the game wasn’t prepared for that. So a lot of people were excited about the idea of GW2. Of course during the development the team completely got replaced and GW2 has just about nothing to do with GW1 other than the name and that was both a good and a bad thing I suppose.

A lot of people left, myself included because the game had nothing to do with GW1, but we do see more and more GW1 stuff coming into the game with lore and gear. One could ask the question why.

But where GW2 went for easy access, it also has down sides. When things become too easy they also become boring. Making mobs more tedious to kill particularly on your own, isn’t about challenge but overcoming annoyance. The original dungeons are filled with bosses that you just need to dodge out of 50 circles or die and all in all it was more about dodging than your actual skill with a class.

And the moment it’s more about skill and I will assume that fractals and the raid require more skillful play and specific choices in weapons, skills, equipment, etc. that’s where you find that it’s not actually that simple at all and there GW1 was actually easier to figure out. Also in GW1 I could pick which skills I had and there were no restrictions because of weapon choice or which slot I put it in other than one elite skill max. So I miss that freedom also.

That doesn’t mean I think bringing that into GW2 is a good idea. The game isn’t meant for that but I think the level of skill of the average MMO player has gone down over the years and it just makes games lacking if you want a bit more out of it. You could argue then that endgame would be great then because it requires more skill but at the same time one raid and infinite fractal levels like a game like tetris has, just doesn’t sound inviting to me. That’s why I stay casual here but played full on in GW1. Until my account got hacked. That’s what killed GW1 for me and nothing else. Since their recovery tool came after that and has gone again, well, it gives me no confidence so I dare not go back. Otherwise I would. I still think the gameplay as such is better.

So is higher numbers by itself the best thing for a game? Sure you need income and regular income. I just wish it wouldn’t be at the cost of what makes games interesting to me. For now I’m happy to glide around a level some toons. Then it’s back to other toons in other games. But at least I can enjoy the leveling zones for a while and that’s an improvement.

I will admit that GW2 also had a very childish tone for me and it’s gotten less it seems. That’s probably also part of the reason I can enjoy playing for a bit. I just don’t ever see it be my main game. For that the long term view in this game is still not interesting enough for me.

But if it’s good enough for a lot of other players, I’m sure I’ll be coming by from time to time just to hang out and that’s ok too.

RyuDragnier.9476:

most (if not all) of the original GW1 team are no longer at ANET.

Two out of three company founders are no longer in the company. The brand name was sold to keep the players, but the game itself became korean MMO.

One big thing I loved about the original GW was the trial and error aspect of build-making.

Way back in the game’s early days, I fondly remember working on various builds to solo hydras outside of Augury Rock. What I love about the process was that satisfaction you get when it finally works! (and by works I mean not dying lol).

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/Day_Trooper/DT_MegaHydraFarmin.jpg

In fact, that’s another thing that’s a bit disappointing about GW2: you can basically get through most content with ‘any old build’ whereas in GW not having the right build (soloing at least) meant death.

Yes I know a lot of folks prefer it this way, and there’s little chance things will change now, but just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in.

Vayne.8563:

I enjoyed making builds, but I don’t think it was great for the game over all, even though I personally enjoyed it.

Really? I thought getting skills was one of the biggest appeals of the first Guild Wars. Every new ability made me excited to try it out. Casting Shield of Regeneration felt like the ultimate way of saying “you will survive this fight, my friend”. Should I make that enemy caster kill itself, burn their energy or shut them down altogether? Where do you get that kind of kicks?

Day Trooper.3605:

One big thing I loved about the original GW was the trial and error aspect of build-making.

Way back in the game’s early days, I fondly remember working on various builds to solo hydras outside of Augury Rock. What I love about the process was that satisfaction you get when it finally works! (and by works I mean not dying lol).

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/Day_Trooper/DT_MegaHydraFarmin.jpg

In fact, that’s another thing that’s a bit disappointing about GW2: you can basically get through most content with ‘any old build’ whereas in GW not having the right build (soloing at least) meant death.

Yes I know a lot of folks prefer it this way, and there’s little chance things will change now, but just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in.

Not getting it right usually meant getting absolutely shredded in a few seconds :-D Getting it right meant you got to laugh at your screen and high five yourself !

Zenith.6403:

Vayne.8563:

I enjoyed making builds, but I don’t think it was great for the game over all, even though I personally enjoyed it.

Really? I thought getting skills was one of the biggest appeals of the first Guild Wars. Every new ability made me excited to try it out. Casting Shield of Regeneration felt like the ultimate way of saying “you will survive this fight, my friend”. Should I make that enemy caster kill itself, burn their energy or shut them down altogether? Where do you get that kind of kicks?

The first time you used panic and pain inverter on a mob :-F

Aeolus.3615:

Gw1 is a much(way much) more skilled game than gw2.

On gw2 players just need to know they do alot of damage, it is spammable, and if it is aoe the better.
It is a very unskilled game for unskilled players… it should not be even on esports..

Gw2 is ment to be very noob friendly.. look at ranger example from gw1 where:
players needed to know wich bow they would use in the situation.

“There are five types of bows, and each has different advantages and disadvantages. The longbow has a medium attack speed, long range, and medium accuracy. The flatbow has a fast attack speed, long range, but poor accuracy. The horn bow has a slow attack speed, medium range, medium accuracy, and 10% armor penetration. The recurve bow has a medium attack speed, medium range and good accuracy. The short bow has a quick attack speed, short range, and good accuracy. "

Source : https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bow

Rangers/mesmer interrupting, shutdowns, real team work, was required team spikes instead of 1 players can burst them all(gw2 version).

The discussion in groups about which builds you`d run, if you didn`t have A) could you run which was similar but with 1 or 2 different skills, then so and so could run his other build that`d work with them , it was a real collaboration, esp going into places like Sorrows Furnace the first time, the Deep, Urgoz, FOW

^And don’t forget UW! (my absolute favorite).

Day Trooper.3605:

^And don’t forget UW! (my absolute favorite).

UW wasn`t that much of a favourite with me i must admit

DoctorDing.5890:

Balance was not a problem in PvE and those skills and builds made it more fun imho.

You can’t say that when Shadow Form assassins and 55 monks existed.

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Day Trooper.3605:

^And don’t forget UW! (my absolute favorite).

UW wasn`t that much of a favourite with me i must admit

Here’s one of my favorite UW builds – with it I could solo-pop the Lab reaper (which was pretty cool since I could survive the extremely hard-hitting Bladed Aatxes).

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/Day_Trooper/gw668_age%201%20solo%20restore.jpg

Regarding the GW1 skillsets, even if GW2 had them it seems that the effort would be a bit ‘wasted’ as the majority of GW2 enemies have ‘vanilla’ builds (i.e. no hexes or stuff like that).

And so the extra skills wouldn’t have the same impact as they did in GW1 since there’s less to deal with in GW2.

Ofc that’s from a PvE standpoint – I can’t really comment on PvP as I don’t play it that much.

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

The discussion in groups about which builds you`d run, if you didn`t have A) could you run which was similar but with 1 or 2 different skills, then so and so could run his other build that`d work with them , it was a real collaboration, esp going into places like Sorrows Furnace the first time, the Deep, Urgoz, FOW

Isn’t this the case with raids and high level fractals though? This is hardcore content- designed to challenge players looking for one.

This sort of build/party requirements slow down gameplay in other areas of the game. A-net clearly stated that they wanted people to be able to quickly enter dungeons rather than having to wait for ages for a particular class or build to join.

My point is this: it sounds like in general you want content that requires careful management of your build and your party members to do the same. This would be considered harder content in GW2. With HoT, A-net put a strong emphasis on hardcore content. It sounds like new raids/wings will be a common thing.

Having harder content that doesn’t affect the core content is the best compromise. It allows everybody to play in the areas that suit them best. Increasing the difficulty and time investment required to play the game is not beneficial for the community overall.

All I care about are my 40/40 heal set, my 40/20/20 Prot staff and my +5+5 Sword +30 +7 Shields.

Skill capping in gw1 … I mean the original capturing mechanism … where you had to use a signet of capture on the boss to get the elites ….

Getting stances was kitten near impossible. But such fun.

Theorycrafting and building was also fun. Sometiems we would sit in our guild hall over vent and just build … then go GvG and find things that didn’t work , adjust and try again. A lot of trial and error with the ‘roles’

<— Loved monking in GvG’s … whether Infuse or Boon Prot – just loved it.

Second fav, was playing curse or BiP necro, depending on team build.

We can work within the confines of gw2, they have confines such as this to prevent things like the 55 monk from occuring.

Zenith.6403:

Vayne.8563:

I enjoyed making builds, but I don’t think it was great for the game over all, even though I personally enjoyed it.

Really? I thought getting skills was one of the biggest appeals of the first Guild Wars. Every new ability made me excited to try it out. Casting Shield of Regeneration felt like the ultimate way of saying “you will survive this fight, my friend”. Should I make that enemy caster kill itself, burn their energy or shut them down altogether? Where do you get that kind of kicks?

Yes, really, I don’t believe it was great for the game over all. Not because I didn’t enjoy it. Not because people like me didn’t enjoy it. I just don’t believe most players ARE like me.

There’s some sort of bias that the more strongly you feel about something or like something, the more you’ll believe that a majority of people feel the same way.

I’m guessing that for every person who loved, this, there was someone else sitting there not able to come to terms with the last build they made. Or not being able to figure out how to make a build at all.

It was good for people who loved that game like me. It was bad for getting more people to love that game. I think the game remained niche because of the number of people who bought it, tried it, and walked away without really understanding what was going on.

As much as I loved the skill system of Guild Wars 1, I would rather not see it ported over to Guild Wars 2.

Guild Wars 1 was a set-piece style of tactical combat, with no vertical movement, movement while casting, or inherent dodge mechanics. Guild Wars 2, on the other hand, is much more fluid.

Then again, I’m one of those who never left the outposts without a self heal, resurrection skill, and defensive skill on my bar. Avoided many a party wipe in UW and FoW, let me tell you. Guild Wars 2 just gave me 3+ skills to work with!

I agree.

The reason is because with the so few skills we have, GW2 is already a balance nightmare. Adding 1000 skills won’t make GW2 balance any worse.

Crimson Clouds.4853:

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

The discussion in groups about which builds you`d run, if you didn`t have A) could you run which was similar but with 1 or 2 different skills, then so and so could run his other build that`d work with them , it was a real collaboration, esp going into places like Sorrows Furnace the first time, the Deep, Urgoz, FOW

Isn’t this the case with raids and high level fractals though? This is hardcore content- designed to challenge players looking for one.

This sort of build/party requirements slow down gameplay in other areas of the game. A-net clearly stated that they wanted people to be able to quickly enter dungeons rather than having to wait for ages for a particular class or build to join.

My point is this: it sounds like in general you want content that requires careful management of your build and your party members to do the same. This would be considered harder content in GW2. With HoT, A-net put a strong emphasis on hardcore content. It sounds like new raids/wings will be a common thing.

Having harder content that doesn’t affect the core content is the best compromise. It allows everybody to play in the areas that suit them best. Increasing the difficulty and time investment required to play the game is not beneficial for the community overall.

Freeing up the skills and weapons would mean you could take anything you wanted into a dungeon, you`d have access to them all so there wouldn’t be any waiting for a particular class ,lets face it you`ve now got engies running round with hammers and necs with bloody greatswords and axes….could have at least made it a scythe but nah, give a non CQC class a greatsword without the speed boosts to use it, makes sense. …It`s NOT about content ( though that could do some work ) its about bringing back some originality and god forbid a bit of experimentation with skills …such scary stuff eh. Because right now there isn`t any skill wise, its mob up and max damage everything in one go , no finesse, no style, no forethought, no originality . It`s tedious , oh what pres determined set of skills shall i equip with this as i fancy a weapon change …..thats it

Diak Atoli.2085:

As much as I loved the skill system of Guild Wars 1, I would rather not see it ported over to Guild Wars 2.

Guild Wars 1 was a set-piece style of tactical combat, with no vertical movement, movement while casting, or inherent dodge mechanics. Guild Wars 2, on the other hand, is much more fluid.

Then again, I’m one of those who never left the outposts without a self heal, resurrection skill, and defensive skill on my bar. Avoided many a party wipe in UW and FoW, let me tell you. Guild Wars 2 just gave me 3+ skills to work with!

And you`d still have those 3 plus skills, just more of them to select from duh

Guild Wars 1 did a lot of great things that could never work in GW2.

I’ve been waiting for years for a game to continue in the direction GW1 was going in. I really dug the attribute system, the dual prof, the elite skill capturing, and how gear worked. Great stuff.

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Diak Atoli.2085:

As much as I loved the skill system of Guild Wars 1, I would rather not see it ported over to Guild Wars 2.

Guild Wars 1 was a set-piece style of tactical combat, with no vertical movement, movement while casting, or inherent dodge mechanics. Guild Wars 2, on the other hand, is much more fluid.

Then again, I’m one of those who never left the outposts without a self heal, resurrection skill, and defensive skill on my bar. Avoided many a party wipe in UW and FoW, let me tell you. Guild Wars 2 just gave me 3+ skills to work with!

And you`d still have those 3 plus skills, just more of them to select from duh

Let me expound a little bit, then.

There are a total of 1235 PvE/PvP skills in Guild Wars 1. This means there are 131,204,518,666,321,227,270 unique combinations for an 8 slot skill bar. That’s not even counting the additional 84 PvE-only skills.

Oh, wait! We’re limited to two professions. That’s means there’s anywhere from 170 (Dervish/Paragon) to 286 (Elementalist/Necromancer) PvE/PvP skills to choose from. The minimum number of unique combinations is therefore 14,637,413,449,945. This is, again, not counting PvE-only skills.

Now, we get to consider the interactions of EVERY SINGLE COMBINATION with that of 7 to 11 other players (PVE) or 15 to 23 other players. I’m at work, or I would do the math on that, too.

Too many numbers; Didn’t read!
My point is: Guild Wars 2 skill balance is already difficult and time consuming, without the need to introducing a massive number of extraneous skills into a system that’s not even designed for that type of combat.

Though, if you wish to donate the millions of dollars to ArenaNet required to overhaul the system and hire a large number of professionals solely dedicated to skills and skill balance, by all means, do so.

Gw1 was good for the niche crowd it catered too because of the expansions. It introduced more skills and different modes of play that gave the game much more variety. That, and the fact that you can have a secondary profession. But, almost half of all those skills were useless or just didn’t work well with certain professions.

There was pve only skills (you can only have 3 on your build at a time) that were extremely op. Almost all current gw1 builds use these skills, and you can only get them if you had the expansions. There was also a lot of balancing issues in pvp. Like when touch rangers became a thing or when guilds started running with IWAY warriors in gvg. Gw2 as it stands now is just way easier to balance and appeals to a broader audience.

In short, gw2 can get there too. It just needs to introduce more elite speculations that change up the class enough to be worth specing into, while also not completely disregarding the previous ones like what they did with pre-HOT builds. From a pvp perspective, it really needs more modes besides conquest and stronghold, needs a bit of a redesign.

Well they’re not going to do this so I’m not even gonna bother with it, although I’d love different skills for each weapon. That being said, what they should bring back is the build save feature. It’s freaking 2016, and it’s unbelievable that a feature so useful that was available back in a game that was released on 2005, but it’s successor doesn’t. Shame on you ANet, this is one of the things that should’ve been there since day 1.

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Crimson Clouds.4853:

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

The discussion in groups about which builds you`d run, if you didn`t have A) could you run which was similar but with 1 or 2 different skills, then so and so could run his other build that`d work with them , it was a real collaboration, esp going into places like Sorrows Furnace the first time, the Deep, Urgoz, FOW

Isn’t this the case with raids and high level fractals though? This is hardcore content- designed to challenge players looking for one.

This sort of build/party requirements slow down gameplay in other areas of the game. A-net clearly stated that they wanted people to be able to quickly enter dungeons rather than having to wait for ages for a particular class or build to join.

My point is this: it sounds like in general you want content that requires careful management of your build and your party members to do the same. This would be considered harder content in GW2. With HoT, A-net put a strong emphasis on hardcore content. It sounds like new raids/wings will be a common thing.

Having harder content that doesn’t affect the core content is the best compromise. It allows everybody to play in the areas that suit them best. Increasing the difficulty and time investment required to play the game is not beneficial for the community overall.

Freeing up the skills and weapons would mean you could take anything you wanted into a dungeon, you`d have access to them all so there wouldn’t be any waiting for a particular class ,lets face it you`ve now got engies running round with hammers and necs with bloody greatswords and axes….could have at least made it a scythe but nah, give a non CQC class a greatsword without the speed boosts to use it, makes sense. …It`s NOT about content ( though that could do some work ) its about bringing back some originality and god forbid a bit of experimentation with skills …such scary stuff eh. Because right now there isn`t any skill wise, its mob up and max damage everything in one go , no finesse, no style, no forethought, no originality . It`s tedious , oh what pres determined set of skills shall i equip with this as i fancy a weapon change …..thats it

This is wrong. I can’t tell you how long I used to wait for people in Guild Wars 1 to come on with a specific build to get into an Underworld or DOA group. People wanted very specific builds no matter how many skills there were available.

I-way anyone? How about Ursan-8. Guild Wars 1, if anything, had a stronger meta than this game.

Serophous.9085:

Crimson Clouds.4853:

But one thing that would be really cool to bring back in some shape or form… skill hunting. I really did appreciate that part of GW1. It was nice to go on a little adventure to find a better version of a skill that you already have. I liked downloading a template, seeing I have 5 blank spots and having to work to fill them. I guess we have that to some extent with the elite specs, and I’m not sure how A-net would be able to work in skill hunting in general… but I just like adventuring :P

NO.

Nonono.

They tried that with the first trait rework. It was horrible and didn’t work. Even if they pertained it to skills this time, it still wouldn’t (wait times for events to spawn, wvw wanting alternate ways to get them, etc).

Just, let the capture system go

Pretty much this. That trait rework pretty much destroyed the game until they fixed it and made it way better. It didn’t help that the trait locations made no sense in relation to when you’d unlock the ability to use those traits. It especially didn’t help that the best ones were locked in ridiculous spots, forcing you to use really crappy builds until you got them. Remember the first tier ones locked behind 100% completion in Frostgorge Sound? shudders

Vayne.8563:

I’m guessing that for every person who loved, this, there was someone else sitting there not able to come to terms with the last build they made. Or not being able to figure out how to make a build at all.

It was good for people who loved that game like me. It was bad for getting more people to love that game. I think the game remained niche because of the number of people who bought it, tried it, and walked away without really understanding what was going on.

I think much the same can be said of GW2. Do you not think that for every person who likes the game there is at least one who doesn’t or walked away?

GW2 is a game that is sort of easy to play and get into but by making it so easy it gets boring. That’s the downside of the GW2 approach…and before you say that “boring” is a matter of opinion, ask yourself why there are level skip items in the game. Make a character instantly level 20, then level 30, now a level 40 token is on the way with the new birthday stuff, but the level cap hasn’t been increased, has it? When you do your dailies you get more more level tokens.

Yes GW2 is definitely easier to get into but I don’t necessarily agree that this is better for the game. If your only measurement is that more people played GW2 than GW1, well, that could be true. However, that’s a very shallow measuring stick. I think GW1 is still the better game of the two. That’s my personal opinion but I am not of the persuasion that a bigger game is better simply because it’s well…bigger.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

I’m guessing that for every person who loved, this, there was someone else sitting there not able to come to terms with the last build they made. Or not being able to figure out how to make a build at all.

It was good for people who loved that game like me. It was bad for getting more people to love that game. I think the game remained niche because of the number of people who bought it, tried it, and walked away without really understanding what was going on.

I think much the same can be said of GW2. Do you not think that for every person who likes the game there is at least one who doesn’t or walked away?

GW2 is a game that is sort of easy to play and get into but by making it so easy it gets boring. That’s the downside of the GW2 approach…and before you say that “boring” is a matter of opinion, ask yourself why there are level skip items in the game. Make a character instantly level 20, then level 30, now a level 40 token is on the way with the new birthday stuff, but the level cap hasn’t been increased, has it? When you do your dailies you get more more level tokens.

Yes GW2 is definitely easier to get into but I don’t necessarily agree that this is better for the game. If your only measurement is that more people played GW2 than GW1, well, that could be true. However, that’s a very shallow measuring stick. I think GW1 is still the better game of the two. That’s my personal opinion but I am not of the persuasion that a bigger game is better simply because it’s well…bigger.

Well yes and no. This has to do with barrier of entry. Not everyone likes chess but that doesn’t mean it’s not a great game. However, chess also has a barrier to entry. It requires thought and not everyone wants to think while playing games, and therein lies the problem.

You can’t make everyone like a game, but you can remove barriers to entry. To put it another way…

The average person has an average IQ. They also have an average amount of time to devote to gaming. Outliers with have almost no time to devote or they’ll have all the time in the world, like me, but most people will be somewhere in between.

You can’t make a game for the outliers and expect it to go mainstream because there are less outliers than there are people within the norm.

So you make the game harder to enter into by making builds that require thought and or research and you lose a percentage of players. The harder you make it to get into the more percentage of players you use. This is called hedging your bets.

There’s a reason WoW is far easier than EQ was and it’s also far more popular than EQ was, as far as player numbers go anyway. It’s because WOW “dumbed down” the genre and allowed more people access.

If you make a game that only 50% of people could possibly like, you’re going to get a fraction of 50% of people who like your game, since not everyone likes the same thing. If you make a game that 80% of people could possibly like, you’ll get more people to try it and stay longer by percentage. It’s the rate at which you retain players and it’s important in MMOs.

In recent years, due to the proliferation of MMOs and even free to play MMOs, it’s been harder and harder to retain players for ALL MMOs including WoW. Even big MMOs struggle for market share.

So it makes sense to have a bigger pool of people to fish in, to try to get them to stay with the game. Raise the bar too high as far as skill, or time commitment or the knowledge you need, or the amount of research you need to do, or even the IQ needed to play the game and you cut out more people as that bar gets higher.

You can’t make everyone like every game. But you can lower the barrier to entry that more people are going to try a game.

Everyone said Guild Wars 1 PvP was amazing, but a dev also said there are more people playing PvP in Guild Wars 2 right now than there ever were in Guild Wars 1.

That doesn’t make Guild Wars 2 PvP better, but I strongly suspect it makes it more accessible.

The combination of the forum bug and the flood control penalty for getting too many infractions is just….gah. lol