Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Well yes and no. This has to do with barrier of entry. Not everyone likes chess but that doesn’t mean it’s not a great game. However, chess also has a barrier to entry. It requires thought and not everyone wants to think while playing games, and therein lies the problem.

You can’t make everyone like a game, but you can remove barriers to entry. To put it another way…

It still goes both ways but the more I think about it, the more I’m actually trying to wonder what was so difficult about GW1 compared to GW2. Look at the class guides for GW2, which are rather lengthy. The GW1 build were never that complex.

GW1 started in pre-searing and then you leveled on. Gearing was very straightforward because all max level gear had the same stat level. It was all the best gear and the rest was about cosmetics. And only later when things came in like DOA did you need to do infusions…I mean gain lightbringer levels to get resistances, but it was a more straightforward thing to do to get the minimum level required. No really, I am not sure what made GW1 so unaccessible in your view. GW2 has been far more confusing to me than GW1 ever was.

Vayne.8563:

The average person has an average IQ. They also have an average amount of time to devote to gaming. Outliers with have almost no time to devote or they’ll have all the time in the world, like me, but most people will be somewhere in between.

You can’t make a game for the outliers and expect it to go mainstream because there are less outliers than there are people within the norm.

Now here’s the thing. WoW dumbed things down and GW1 compared to EQ was also dumbed down and came out not long after WoW I believe. WoW blew everything out of the water. No game has been so successful in the MMO genre and it was totally mainstream. Are you seriously saying that GW1 was much harder than WoW, because that’s the correct comparison of the time.

You make a dangerous statement about IQ but it is true, however, most people had average IQs when WoW came out as well. I don’t see how that is different today then it was then.

Vayne.8563:

So you make the game harder to enter into by making builds that require thought and or research and you lose a percentage of players. The harder you make it to get into the more percentage of players you use. This is called hedging your bets.

I lost interest in GW2 because leveling was endless and being level 80 was pointless. It’s better now but I think GW1 was niche mostly because it didn’t have all the amenities of a regular MMO like 3D maps, crafting and a persistent world. I really don’t think it was niche because of the combat system.

Vayne.8563:

There’s a reason WoW is far easier than EQ was and it’s also far more popular than EQ was, as far as player numbers go anyway. It’s because WOW “dumbed down” the genre and allowed more people access.

Well again are you saying GW1 was so much harder than WoW and didn’t dumb down from EQ? Because I don’t agree and that basically debunks your point.

Another question. Is GW2 dumbed down from WoW?

Vayne.8563:

In recent years, due to the proliferation of MMOs and even free to play MMOs, it’s been harder and harder to retain players for ALL MMOs including WoW. Even big MMOs struggle for market share.

So it makes sense to have a bigger pool of people to fish in, to try to get them to stay with the game. Raise the bar too high as far as skill, or time commitment or the knowledge you need, or the amount of research you need to do, or even the IQ needed to play the game and you cut out more people as that bar gets higher.

Yeah and this actually sums up why the MMO genre is struggling and nobody even gets close to the success of WoW. It’s these cowardly business tactics that perpetuate this. You simply cannot open a new MMO with so much less than existing MMOs in it. With less I mean endgame, I mean PvP options, I mean guild functionalities and storage facilities etc. These game companies shoot themselves in the foot thinking that they can start at base like games did in the past and repeat a similar success if they just get that one edge. That’s bull. A lot of players in MMOs have played MMOs before and are used to certain amenities. You can’t just say, oh we may implement that later. You mentioned retention, well the biggest loss of players is generally within the first 3 months after release because of advertising that facilitates ridiculous expectations and not having a robust enough start with in game functionalities for guilds etc. GW2 had that problem just like all other MMOs pretty much.

Vayne.8563:

Everyone said Guild Wars 1 PvP was amazing, but a dev also said there are more people playing PvP in Guild Wars 2 right now than there ever were in Guild Wars 1.

That doesn’t make Guild Wars 2 PvP better, but I strongly suspect it makes it more accessible.

Well, what did he mean? If GW2 has more players overall than GW1 obviously had less players doing PvP. If it has more relatively speaking then we are on to something. But then what did he consider PvP in his statement? Did he include the factions maps like Jade Quarry on the one hand and WvW on the other hand? Sorry but that statement by itself doesn’t tell me anything without proper context.

Personally I’d just like to see 7-8 skills per 2h weapon (adjust accordingly for MH/OH weapons). Then, you load out with 5 of them.

Actually the biggest disappointment for me at launch and still, is the lack of ability to save/share builds using templates.
I would swap builds several times in a session with a few clicks- no need for endless pieces of paper.
Not having that ability in GW2 feels like trying to play a class with one arm chopped off.
Many times do I think of switching my character build around but then I think of all the hassle of writing everything down and not losing it so i can switch back later on and end up just not bothering. It kills build diversity.
As for skill levels in GW2 compared to GW1, you’re comparing two different games, as GW1 was primarily a pvp game where skill and build really mattered whereas gw2 is more about casuals, pve and dumbed down pvp (mostly).

Baldrick.8967:

Actually the biggest disappointment for me at launch and still, is the lack of ability to save/share builds using templates.
I would swap builds several times in a session with a few clicks- no need for endless pieces of paper.
Not having that ability in GW2 feels like trying to play a class with one arm chopped off.
Many times do I think of switching my character build around but then I think of all the hassle of writing everything down and not losing it so i can switch back later on and end up just not bothering. It kills build diversity.
As for skill levels in GW2 compared to GW1, you’re comparing two different games, as GW1 was primarily a pvp game where skill and build really mattered whereas gw2 is more about casuals, pve and dumbed down pvp (mostly).

GW1 a pvp game primarily? Weird cause although I did enjoy some of the pvp in GW1, I was mostly doing pve in there.

Zenith.6403:

RyuDragnier.9476:

most (if not all) of the original GW1 team are no longer at ANET.

Two out of three company founders are no longer in the company. The brand name was sold to keep the players, but the game itself became korean MMO.

IF it was a korean mmo, you would have a decent crafting system, dungeons rewards would be only in dungeons, you would had decent rewards in WVW , there was no EOTM, people could do anything in WvW and craft stuff.

Towers/keeps would be more than just ppl and increase your health pool, each tower would have its own tresures and diferent types of rewards.
Players/guild would be reward for how long they could hold that zone, and improve itwould make better rewards for everywone deffending and atacking arround that part of the map.
Aoe would be strong but not the only way to play the game.

Oh and WvW players could get ascended….

Gehenna.3625:

Baldrick.8967:

Actually the biggest disappointment for me at launch and still, is the lack of ability to save/share builds using templates.
I would swap builds several times in a session with a few clicks- no need for endless pieces of paper.
Not having that ability in GW2 feels like trying to play a class with one arm chopped off.
Many times do I think of switching my character build around but then I think of all the hassle of writing everything down and not losing it so i can switch back later on and end up just not bothering. It kills build diversity.
As for skill levels in GW2 compared to GW1, you’re comparing two different games, as GW1 was primarily a pvp game where skill and build really mattered whereas gw2 is more about casuals, pve and dumbed down pvp (mostly).

GW1 a pvp game primarily? Weird cause although I did enjoy some of the pvp in GW1, I was mostly doing pve in there.

Most GW1 players probably either only did or mostly did PvE, which after 3 campaigns and one expansion in 4 years, there was a lot of to do. I don’t know why people think GW1 was mostly played for PVP, the population count balance was likely very different. To be fair, the organization and options of PVP mode were much better, and the build/character options far more plentiful and rewarding than GW2.

GW1 = balance nightmare… Although somehow they managed to keep it rather well balanced…

GW2 = Much easier balance (ffs we can’t even change our 1st 5 skills)… Although somehow that manage to fail spectacularly at it…

Allison The Strange.4519:

GW1 = balance nightmare… Although somehow they managed to keep it rather well balanced…

GW2 = Much easier balance (ffs we can’t even change our 1st 5 skills)… Although somehow that manage to fail spectacularly at it…

^so true.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Well yes and no. This has to do with barrier of entry. Not everyone likes chess but that doesn’t mean it’s not a great game. However, chess also has a barrier to entry. It requires thought and not everyone wants to think while playing games, and therein lies the problem.

You can’t make everyone like a game, but you can remove barriers to entry. To put it another way…

It still goes both ways but the more I think about it, the more I’m actually trying to wonder what was so difficult about GW1 compared to GW2. Look at the class guides for GW2, which are rather lengthy. The GW1 build were never that complex.

GW1 started in pre-searing and then you leveled on. Gearing was very straightforward because all max level gear had the same stat level. It was all the best gear and the rest was about cosmetics. And only later when things came in like DOA did you need to do infusions…I mean gain lightbringer levels to get resistances, but it was a more straightforward thing to do to get the minimum level required. No really, I am not sure what made GW1 so unaccessible in your view. GW2 has been far more confusing to me than GW1 ever was.

Vayne.8563:

The average person has an average IQ. They also have an average amount of time to devote to gaming. Outliers with have almost no time to devote or they’ll have all the time in the world, like me, but most people will be somewhere in between.

You can’t make a game for the outliers and expect it to go mainstream because there are less outliers than there are people within the norm.

Now here’s the thing. WoW dumbed things down and GW1 compared to EQ was also dumbed down and came out not long after WoW I believe. WoW blew everything out of the water. No game has been so successful in the MMO genre and it was totally mainstream. Are you seriously saying that GW1 was much harder than WoW, because that’s the correct comparison of the time.

You make a dangerous statement about IQ but it is true, however, most people had average IQs when WoW came out as well. I don’t see how that is different today then it was then.

Vayne.8563:

So you make the game harder to enter into by making builds that require thought and or research and you lose a percentage of players. The harder you make it to get into the more percentage of players you use. This is called hedging your bets.

I lost interest in GW2 because leveling was endless and being level 80 was pointless. It’s better now but I think GW1 was niche mostly because it didn’t have all the amenities of a regular MMO like 3D maps, crafting and a persistent world. I really don’t think it was niche because of the combat system.

Vayne.8563:

There’s a reason WoW is far easier than EQ was and it’s also far more popular than EQ was, as far as player numbers go anyway. It’s because WOW “dumbed down” the genre and allowed more people access.

Well again are you saying GW1 was so much harder than WoW and didn’t dumb down from EQ? Because I don’t agree and that basically debunks your point.

Another question. Is GW2 dumbed down from WoW?

Vayne.8563:

In recent years, due to the proliferation of MMOs and even free to play MMOs, it’s been harder and harder to retain players for ALL MMOs including WoW. Even big MMOs struggle for market share.

So it makes sense to have a bigger pool of people to fish in, to try to get them to stay with the game. Raise the bar too high as far as skill, or time commitment or the knowledge you need, or the amount of research you need to do, or even the IQ needed to play the game and you cut out more people as that bar gets higher.

Yeah and this actually sums up why the MMO genre is struggling and nobody even gets close to the success of WoW. It’s these cowardly business tactics that perpetuate this. You simply cannot open a new MMO with so much less than existing MMOs in it. With less I mean endgame, I mean PvP options, I mean guild functionalities and storage facilities etc. These game companies shoot themselves in the foot thinking that they can start at base like games did in the past and repeat a similar success if they just get that one edge. That’s bull. A lot of players in MMOs have played MMOs before and are used to certain amenities. You can’t just say, oh we may implement that later. You mentioned retention, well the biggest loss of players is generally within the first 3 months after release because of advertising that facilitates ridiculous expectations and not having a robust enough start with in game functionalities for guilds etc. GW2 had that problem just like all other MMOs pretty much.

Vayne.8563:

Everyone said Guild Wars 1 PvP was amazing, but a dev also said there are more people playing PvP in Guild Wars 2 right now than there ever were in Guild Wars 1.

That doesn’t make Guild Wars 2 PvP better, but I strongly suspect it makes it more accessible.

Well, what did he mean? If GW2 has more players overall than GW1 obviously had less players doing PvP. If it has more relatively speaking then we are on to something. But then what did he consider PvP in his statement? Did he include the factions maps like Jade Quarry on the one hand and WvW on the other hand? Sorry but that statement by itself doesn’t tell me anything without proper context.

I know Guild Wars 1 was diffficult because I ran a guild there for five years and ran a guild here for four.

Here you put on a weapon, 5 skills. The skills that matter most. You’re forced to take both a healing and elite skill. A lot of guys in GW 1 would have benefited from a healing skill, but didn’t take one because they wanted more DPS and figured the cleric would keep them alive.

The fact is, there you had 8 slots to fill from hundreds of choices, here you have 1 slot to fill from like three choices, three slots to fill from dozens. Your elite here is one choice out of three.

And Guild Wars 1 had a second profession. You’d effectively double the amount of skills to choose from.

Given eight slots with no real direction, this game is much much easier to build…there’s probably a fair number of players here who’ve been to the trait screen once and never looked again. But at least they have usable skills.

Vayne.8563:

I know Guild Wars 1 was diffficult because I ran a guild there for five years and ran a guild here for four.

Here you put on a weapon, 5 skills. The skills that matter most. You’re forced to take both a healing and elite skill. A lot of guys in GW 1 would have benefited from a healing skill, but didn’t take one because they wanted more DPS and figured the cleric would keep them alive.

The fact is, there you had 8 slots to fill from hundreds of choices, here you have 1 slot to fill from like three choices, three slots to fill from dozens. Your elite here is one choice out of three.

And Guild Wars 1 had a second profession. You’d effectively double the amount of skills to choose from.

Given eight slots with no real direction, this game is much much easier to build…there’s probably a fair number of players here who’ve been to the trait screen once and never looked again. But at least they have usable skills.

Honestly, when you start GW1 as a new player you don’t get all those skills right away. You have to unlock them as you go along. It’s not till later that all those skills come along and by then your brain should’ve sparked once or twice and the builds are easier to make than reading through a guide for a GW2 class.

But I think I get your point just in a different way. I don’t think it’s an inability but an unwillingness to learn that we face in today’s world. The media have all but convinced people that they don’t need to think for themselves and that there’s always a guiding hand to tell them what to do and where to go.

You may have experienced this in your guild already back then but it baffles me to think that people think GW1 to be difficult. I still don’t believe that, so for me it’s just that when you give people freedom, they’ve forgotten how to make choices for themselves.

That’s actually really saddening when I think about it.

I loved GW, it was my first introduction to an MMO style game.
I loved being able to experiment with builds and 97.05% they were junk.
But, hey, had hero’s to bail me out.
I loved capturing elite skills and mapping(when it was truly mapping)
I loved hard mode map clearing.
Do I miss all that, yes I do.
But not enough to want it to be brought back.

GW2 is a different game.
A better game than GW was, in my opinion(yes I know not everyone or even a few people will agree with this, but it is how I think)
Where in GW you got to experiment with skill sets, in GW2 you get to experiment with Armor stats and weapon stats.
That is what I see the trade off being, the variety of skill sets verses the variety of armor/weapon stat choices.

Gehenna.3625:

Baldrick.8967:

Actually the biggest disappointment for me at launch and still, is the lack of ability to save/share builds using templates.
I would swap builds several times in a session with a few clicks- no need for endless pieces of paper.
Not having that ability in GW2 feels like trying to play a class with one arm chopped off.
Many times do I think of switching my character build around but then I think of all the hassle of writing everything down and not losing it so i can switch back later on and end up just not bothering. It kills build diversity.
As for skill levels in GW2 compared to GW1, you’re comparing two different games, as GW1 was primarily a pvp game where skill and build really mattered whereas gw2 is more about casuals, pve and dumbed down pvp (mostly).

GW1 a pvp game primarily? Weird cause although I did enjoy some of the pvp in GW1, I was mostly doing pve in there.

Yes, it was. It had a PvE element, but they called it Guild Wars because that’s what they wanted the game to be about. Have you seen the developer studio’s name? PvP is in the name of the game and name of the company.

Guild Wars 1 was a game about what skills you had. Guild Wars 2 is more about how you use them.

Frankly, I hate grab-bag style skill selection – it stinks too much of CCG balance, and the mess that involves.

Vayne.8563:

Everyone said Guild Wars 1 PvP was amazing, but a dev also said there are more people playing PvP in Guild Wars 2 right now than there ever were in Guild Wars 1.

That doesn’t make Guild Wars 2 PvP better, but I strongly suspect it makes it more accessible.

I can imagine dumbing down games has the positive effect of increasing accessibility. Why should developers bother to have any ambition to innovate when Candy Crush is the pinnacle of gaming? Any deviation from that is net loss. There is science in all of this and carefully manipulating key metrics creates profit.

I disagree with this idea. I want to experience art, interesting gameplay and positive feelings. I want to see companies that provide those succeed.

As much as a “balance nightmare” they say it is, it is still 10x more balanced than this game, even more so after the HoT powercreep

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

I know Guild Wars 1 was diffficult because I ran a guild there for five years and ran a guild here for four.

Here you put on a weapon, 5 skills. The skills that matter most. You’re forced to take both a healing and elite skill. A lot of guys in GW 1 would have benefited from a healing skill, but didn’t take one because they wanted more DPS and figured the cleric would keep them alive.

The fact is, there you had 8 slots to fill from hundreds of choices, here you have 1 slot to fill from like three choices, three slots to fill from dozens. Your elite here is one choice out of three.

And Guild Wars 1 had a second profession. You’d effectively double the amount of skills to choose from.

Given eight slots with no real direction, this game is much much easier to build…there’s probably a fair number of players here who’ve been to the trait screen once and never looked again. But at least they have usable skills.

Honestly, when you start GW1 as a new player you don’t get all those skills right away. You have to unlock them as you go along. It’s not till later that all those skills come along and by then your brain should’ve sparked once or twice and the builds are easier to make than reading through a guide for a GW2 class.

But I think I get your point just in a different way. I don’t think it’s an inability but an unwillingness to learn that we face in today’s world. The media have all but convinced people that they don’t need to think for themselves and that there’s always a guiding hand to tell them what to do and where to go.

You may have experienced this in your guild already back then but it baffles me to think that people think GW1 to be difficult. I still don’t believe that, so for me it’s just that when you give people freedom, they’ve forgotten how to make choices for themselves.

That’s actually really saddening when I think about it.

I know a lot of people who left Guild War 1, because they wanted to log in an just start killing stuff. Guild Wars 1 is more of a strategy game. Guild Wars 2 has more of an arcade element. It appeals to a different group of people.

If you’re used to just going into a game and killing stuff, or even if you’re used to something like WoW, Guild Wars 1 was a step up in complexity.

Not everyone wants to spend time figuring out builds.

Vayne.8563:

Everyone said Guild Wars 1 PvP was amazing, but a dev also said there are more people playing PvP in Guild Wars 2 right now than there ever were in Guild Wars 1.

That doesn’t make Guild Wars 2 PvP better, but I strongly suspect it makes it more accessible.

Gw2 came at a time period where WOW had become stale with players looking for something new and thus picked up more players than gw1 could at launch. More players might be in gw2 pvp but dont forget that they had to combine lobbies, completely overhaul rewards, and add these tournments of legends to just to retain the slighest interest. There is as someone else pointed out the question to whether wvw was included within that statement as the vast majority of those players are zergers so its glaringly obvious as to why there would be preference for a simple system – theyd prolly much rather have all the skills bound to the 1 key if them could.

It is rather puzzling how a game that has fewer skill choices is less balanced than a game that could never actually be balanced due to skill combinations.

Zenith.6403:

Vayne.8563:

Everyone said Guild Wars 1 PvP was amazing, but a dev also said there are more people playing PvP in Guild Wars 2 right now than there ever were in Guild Wars 1.

That doesn’t make Guild Wars 2 PvP better, but I strongly suspect it makes it more accessible.

I can imagine dumbing down games has the positive effect of increasing accessibility. Why should developers bother to have any ambition to innovate when Candy Crush is the pinnacle of gaming? Any deviation from that is net loss. There is science in all of this and carefully manipulating key metrics creates profit.

I disagree with this idea. I want to experience art, interesting gameplay and positive feelings. I want to see companies that provide those succeed.

You can disagree if you like, but it’s not your money being invested in an MMO in this particular climate. MMOs are dangerous to make because they require a large investment with no real guarantee of pay off. You can’t afford to remake the wheel, even if you think it would be better for the genre.

Not like TSW is doing really well, but they went with a level-less system. They had good graphics, really good story but still didn’t really manage to catch on main stream and they’re suffering for it.

The higher the bar to entry the harder to pay for your investment.

It doesnt’ mean you don’t try to raise the bar, but you have to have a path to get to the bar.

I’m sure you’ve seen people complaining that HoT is too hard. They keep dying. There was no real smooth transition from the old Tyria to the new one. I mean, there were some steps up in difficulty like Silverwastes and Dry Top and particularly some of the Living World Season 2 stuff but it wasn’t gradual enough and it left too many people behind.

I love HoT. I think those are the best zones in the entire game. But a lot of people were left behind and HoT sales didn’t meet expectations.

It’s always easy to take a stand when you don’t have to answer to investors. It’s much harder when you’re not the only one you need to please/impress.

Vayne.8563:

I know a lot of people who left Guild War 1, because they wanted to log in an just start killing stuff. Guild Wars 1 is more of a strategy game. Guild Wars 2 has more of an arcade element. It appeals to a different group of people.

I will agree that GW1 had more strategy to it, but I know a lot of people who enjoyed GW1’s style. Shall we fight over the definition of what “a lot of people” means and who has the best anecdotal evidence?

The element that does make sense here is the Arcade comment. GW1 builds up a bit more slowly and it was a discovery of the world and your class(es). GW2 is more fast paced, though at the same time killing mobs take more time. An interesting combination.

Vayne.8563:

If you’re used to just going into a game and killing stuff, or even if you’re used to something like WoW, Guild Wars 1 was a step up in complexity.

I’m surprised at this. You answer my question with a yes then. I’ll say that you are the first person that I know of that considers GW1 more complex than WoW. I wonder how other people who played both those games feel about that.

Vayne.8563:

Not everyone wants to spend time figuring out builds.

That’s just a lame excuse sorry. GW2 has builds. There is the choice of 2 sets of weapons and the second half of the skill bar with skill trees behind it. You need to figure those things out as well. It’s complete and utter bull to say that GW2 has no builds in it. I referred to the guides for GW2 classes which are very lengthy.

And there were plenty of sites that told you which builds where out there so you didn’t have to figure them out yourself. People even had files you could copy into your builds folder. So to say GW1 was tricky because it had builds is nonsense, all games have builds GW2 included. Not to mention heroes. You could just give them the builds that other people figured out and they play the game for you mostly.

The one thing that holds water in what you say is that GW2 is more fast paced overall. Right into the action as you say. GW1 built up more slowly but it’s not more complex.

GW1:
Level to 20. Gather hundreds of skills. Websites tell you which builds are most powerful. Copy/Paste file or do it yourself and use 8 skills as described. Save a few different builds from Copy/Paste for different content types.

GW2: Level to 80. Gather hundreds of skill points. Websites tell you which builds are best but they are very lengthy guides. Get two weapons sets or more depending on what you do in game. Use 15 skills while clicking back and forth with longer cooldowns + any F1-F4 skills you may have as a class and make sure the skill trees are set correctly and that you know what the effects are you so can actually have the benefits of them.

Gear was also easier to get in GW1.

Seriously, do you really want to contend that GW1 was more complex? Sure you have lots of skills to choose from but the builds are so easy to obtain and to load and to use. GW2 factually has more complexity because of the skill trees and synergies between various aspects of your build and a lot more skills than just the 8 slots GW1 had.

GW2 more fast paced? Yes. Less complex? Hell no.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

I know a lot of people who left Guild War 1, because they wanted to log in an just start killing stuff. Guild Wars 1 is more of a strategy game. Guild Wars 2 has more of an arcade element. It appeals to a different group of people.

I will agree that GW1 had more strategy to it, but I know a lot of people who enjoyed GW1’s style. Shall we fight over the definition of what “a lot of people” means and who has the best anecdotal evidence?

The element that does make sense here is the Arcade comment. GW1 builds up a bit more slowly and it was a discovery of the world and your class(es). GW2 is more fast paced, though at the same time killing mobs take more time. An interesting combination.

Vayne.8563:

If you’re used to just going into a game and killing stuff, or even if you’re used to something like WoW, Guild Wars 1 was a step up in complexity.

I’m surprised at this. You answer my question with a yes then. I’ll say that you are the first person that I know of that considers GW1 more complex than WoW. I wonder how other people who played both those games feel about that.

Vayne.8563:

Not everyone wants to spend time figuring out builds.

That’s just a lame excuse sorry. GW2 has builds. There is the choice of 2 sets of weapons and the second half of the skill bar with skill trees behind it. You need to figure those things out as well. It’s complete and utter bull to say that GW2 has no builds in it. I referred to the guides for GW2 classes which are very lengthy.

And there were plenty of sites that told you which builds where out there so you didn’t have to figure them out yourself. People even had files you could copy into your builds folder. So to say GW1 was tricky because it had builds is nonsense, all games have builds GW2 included. Not to mention heroes. You could just give them the builds that other people figured out and they play the game for you mostly.

The one thing that holds water in what you say is that GW2 is more fast paced overall. Right into the action as you say. GW1 built up more slowly but it’s not more complex.

GW1:
Level to 20. Gather hundreds of skills. Websites tell you which builds are most powerful. Copy/Paste file or do it yourself and use 8 skills as described. Save a few different builds from Copy/Paste for different content types.

GW2: Level to 80. Gather hundreds of skill points. Websites tell you which builds are best but they are very lengthy guides. Get two weapons sets or more depending on what you do in game. Use 15 skills while clicking back and forth with longer cooldowns + any F1-F4 skills you may have as a class and make sure the skill trees are set correctly and that you know what the effects are you so can actually have the benefits of them.

Gear was also easier to get in GW1.

Seriously, do you really want to contend that GW1 was more complex? Sure you have lots of skills to choose from but the builds are so easy to obtain and to load and to use. GW2 factually has more complexity because of the skill trees and synergies between various aspects of your build and a lot more skills than just the 8 slots GW1 had.

GW2 more fast paced? Yes. Less complex? Hell no.

Guild Wars 2 has builds but entry level builds are the weapon you choose. Five of your skills are determined by weapons and those weapon skills are determined by devs. Yes, we make our own builds but anyone who picks up any weapon is using dev assigned skills.

Yes, I think WoW was a lot easier than Guild Wars 1. Not a little, a lot. Getting into WoW at the entry level was easier. I’ve done them both and I found WoW to be braindead easy and I left WoW for the original Guild Wars because of that.

But I don’t believe I’m atypical of the average gamer either.

The difference is not just complexity but where the complexity comes from. WoW also gives you skills when you start, but you never have to choose, because you can put every skill on bars. Those are your skills. You might only use two or three of them, but you can just run around anyway, because they’re all available all the time.

Guild Wars 2 gives you 8 slots, and that’s it. The second you get 9 skills, you’re leaving something off that bar. You get your second profession pretty fast, so you can get 9 skills pretty fast. Which do you leave off? Which do you keep?

Everything in WoW was following a star on your map to a wall of text. There was no thought process for me. There was nothing like missions.

Yes, I found WOW easier. And Guild Wars 1 is harder at the entry level for people to get into. Even Guild Wars 2 was considered by the devs to be too hard, which is why they introduced the NPE.

If you’re a gamer, if you’re already an MMO player, it’s different. But a lot of people, who come to MMOs for the first time, they’re really lost.

Surely you’ve seen those posts.

And well, some skills they only managed to balance somehow at the very end of GW1, like the infamous skill “Flare”, became somewhat useful by gaining small AoE when overcast…

Although I still like the GW1 PvE abit more, since there’s more utility for majority of skills, like enchantments, hexes, removals, etc. while in GW2 is the problem of mobs either being completely challengeless (vanilla PvE) or have challenge but lack some distinct game mechanic (boons mostly with HoT, tho the LW3 remedied this abit with new content that use boons a little bit more)

If I remember correct, there’s still skills that are considered useless, due to distinct functionalities…

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 has builds but entry level builds are the weapon you choose. Five of your skills are determined by weapons and those weapon skills are determined by devs. Yes, we make our own builds but anyone who picks up any weapon is using dev assigned skills.

How many skills does a new player start with on their first character? Zero, if I remember right and you have to kill some mobs with basic weapon attacks to gain your first skill. And then you gain others, Until finally your bar is full. Then you get a secondary class. How many of those skills do you start with? Hundreds or do you have to unlock them first?

Honestly. It’s preposterous to call that complex.

I do think a lot of people didn’t get how it works because it was very different from what they were used to. I think back then the PC game world was more separate from the console gamers.

Nowadays people are more used to this type of set up, but GW2 is still very strange compared to other MMOs with a limited skill bar and skills linked to weapons. To me the link between skills and weapons was one of the biggest turn offs. It still would be if I wanted to play this game less casually as I do.

Vayne.8563:

Yes, I think WoW was a lot easier than Guild Wars 1. Not a little, a lot. Getting into WoW at the entry level was easier. I’ve done them both and I found WoW to be braindead easy and I left WoW for the original Guild Wars because of that.

Well I never played WoW myself but I wonder if more people who played both games agree with you. I find it surprising but I can’t agree nor disagree on this point as a consequence.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 gives you 8 slots, and that’s it. The second you get 9 skills, you’re leaving something off that bar. You get your second profession pretty fast, so you can get 9 skills pretty fast. Which do you leave off? Which do you keep?

This is complex to you is it? Choosing between two skills once you get number 9? There are always skills you like better or not. And GW2 makes you choose between skills as well or weapon skills. How often do we not see questions in GW2 about “which weapon is best for my class”? And then we haven’t even touched skill trees.

Vayne.8563:

If you’re a gamer, if you’re already an MMO player, it’s different. But a lot of people, who come to MMOs for the first time, they’re really lost.

Surely you’ve seen those posts.

I’ve seen those posts in all MMOs I’ve played. This is a non-argument to me as such. And in the 6-7 years I played GW1 I’ve heard people ask which build was best and I’ve heard people complain that there were no skill trees etc. But I do not remember people generally complaining that it was too hard. That just hasn’t been my experience in all that time.

Well, perhaps it’s because I never play on US servers

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 has builds but entry level builds are the weapon you choose. Five of your skills are determined by weapons and those weapon skills are determined by devs. Yes, we make our own builds but anyone who picks up any weapon is using dev assigned skills.

How many skills does a new player start with on their first character? Zero, if I remember right and you have to kill some mobs with basic weapon attacks to gain your first skill. And then you gain others, Until finally your bar is full. Then you get a secondary class. How many of those skills do you start with? Hundreds or do you have to unlock them first?

Honestly. It’s preposterous to call that complex.

I do think a lot of people didn’t get how it works because it was very different from what they were used to. I think back then the PC game world was more separate from the console gamers.

Nowadays people are more used to this type of set up, but GW2 is still very strange compared to other MMOs with a limited skill bar and skills linked to weapons. To me the link between skills and weapons was one of the biggest turn offs. It still would be if I wanted to play this game less casually as I do.

Vayne.8563:

Yes, I think WoW was a lot easier than Guild Wars 1. Not a little, a lot. Getting into WoW at the entry level was easier. I’ve done them both and I found WoW to be braindead easy and I left WoW for the original Guild Wars because of that.

Well I never played WoW myself but I wonder if more people who played both games agree with you. I find it surprising but I can’t agree nor disagree on this point as a consequence.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 gives you 8 slots, and that’s it. The second you get 9 skills, you’re leaving something off that bar. You get your second profession pretty fast, so you can get 9 skills pretty fast. Which do you leave off? Which do you keep?

This is complex to you is it? Choosing between two skills once you get number 9? There are always skills you like better or not. And GW2 makes you choose between skills as well or weapon skills. How often do we not see questions in GW2 about “which weapon is best for my class”? And then we haven’t even touched skill trees.

Vayne.8563:

If you’re a gamer, if you’re already an MMO player, it’s different. But a lot of people, who come to MMOs for the first time, they’re really lost.

Surely you’ve seen those posts.

I’ve seen those posts in all MMOs I’ve played. This is a non-argument to me as such. And in the 6-7 years I played GW1 I’ve heard people ask which build was best and I’ve heard people complain that there were no skill trees etc. But I do not remember people generally complaining that it was too hard. That just hasn’t been my experience in all that time.

Well, perhaps it’s because I never play on US servers

I think you’re remembering wrong here. You get your second profession in pre-searing ascalon. You can literally have two professions in your first hour of playing the game. You might think every one can maintain that pace, I assure you that is not the case.

It’s easy to tell you’re a smart guy. Like a lot of smart people, you assume most people are able to do what you do, or some facsimile of it. I assure you that’s not the case.

Vayne.8563:

I think you’re remembering wrong here. You get your second profession in pre-searing ascalon. You can literally have two professions in your first hour of playing the game. You might think every one can maintain that pace, I assure you that is not the case.

Apparently not. Now you’re right that you get to pick a second profession early on and that does by itself add a level of complexity, but really, you don’t have many skills to choose from.

You might be right about the pace though. There may be some semantic issues going on as well. When I speak of complexity I look at the levels and interactions of the combat system itself. I get the feeling that isn’t quite how you approach it. You are clearly looking at different things that I would not class as complexity but might be hard for people to follow nonetheless.

Vayne.8563:

It’s easy to tell you’re a smart guy. Like a lot of smart people, you assume most people are able to do what you do, or some facsimile of it. I assure you that’s not the case.

Hmm. I have no counter argument to that.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

I think you’re remembering wrong here. You get your second profession in pre-searing ascalon. You can literally have two professions in your first hour of playing the game. You might think every one can maintain that pace, I assure you that is not the case.

Apparently not. Now you’re right that you get to pick a second profession early on and that does by itself add a level of complexity, but really, you don’t have many skills to choose from.

You might be right about the pace though. There may be some semantic issues going on as well. When I speak of complexity I look at the levels and interactions of the combat system itself. I get the feeling that isn’t quite how you approach it. You are clearly looking at different things that I would not class as complexity but might be hard for people to follow nonetheless.

Vayne.8563:

It’s easy to tell you’re a smart guy. Like a lot of smart people, you assume most people are able to do what you do, or some facsimile of it. I assure you that’s not the case.

Hmm. I have no counter argument to that.

Even the skills in Guild Wars 1 were more complex and more conditional over all. They related to each other. Do we have skills in this game that mimic other skills, or steal people’s skills and add them to your bar?

Skills in Guild Wars 1 tended to be more conditional and more dependent on other skills more often. One skill I remember required both a condition and a hex to be active on a player before it would proc properly.

Vayne.8563:

Even the skills in Guild Wars 1 were more complex and more conditional over all. They related to each other. Do we have skills in this game that mimic other skills, or steal people’s skills and add them to your bar?

Skills in Guild Wars 1 tended to be more conditional and more dependent on other skills more often. One skill I remember required both a condition and a hex to be active on a player before it would proc properly.

No, there were a handful of peculiar skills but look it up…the vast majority of skills were straightforward and the really tricky ones you could ignore anyway. I mean who seriously used skill stealing?

Sure the Mesmer was a bit more tricky but in the end it is in GW2 as well just for different reasons.

And GW2 has plenty of conditional stuff that only happens on condition of something else, like doing more damage to targets that suffer from condition x or whatever.

Just a nice comparison for ya.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_necromancer_skills
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_necromancer_skills

I mean really. That’s GW1 after 3 expansions and GW2 after 1 expansion.

Not much weird going on in the GW1 list except a lot of skills in 1 list. GW2 has them grouped but there are still tons of skills and you do have to make choices in a different way.

You see a lot of conditional stuff in the GW1 Necro? And what about the GW2 Necro?

The GW2 skills can have up to 3 or 4 things going on at the same time. And some of the conditional stuff is actually put into the skill trees so it’s still there.

I can understand that people are not as smart as I like to assume but then they are also not getting the most out of their builds in GW2 just as GW1.

I think that the reason that GW2 is more accessible has to do with other things. Things like level sync and not having to team up to do content together for most of the game and getting lots of npcs in story missions.

No, the GW2 combat system is much more complex than you give it credit but they’ve made the game so that in general people don’t really notice if they have a bad build because you generally zerg things or just take longer to kill regular mobs.

HoT may have been too much for many because there you notice the differences more because aside from the meta there’s not a lot going on there usually, so you’re left to yourself or very small groups more often. People are faced with their builds then more than in the regular leveling zones I bet.

i used to love playing funky weird builds,
i agree that build diversity was one of the things that GW1 had better than any other game i’ve played.

totally off topic but also one thing that GW1 did better than anything i’ve seen since was arrows and how they worked when fired from up high, they would travel further and deal more damage, it made holding the high ground feel awesome!

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Even the skills in Guild Wars 1 were more complex and more conditional over all. They related to each other. Do we have skills in this game that mimic other skills, or steal people’s skills and add them to your bar?

Skills in Guild Wars 1 tended to be more conditional and more dependent on other skills more often. One skill I remember required both a condition and a hex to be active on a player before it would proc properly.

No, there were a handful of peculiar skills but look it up…the vast majority of skills were straightforward and the really tricky ones you could ignore anyway. I mean who seriously used skill stealing?

Sure the Mesmer was a bit more tricky but in the end it is in GW2 as well just for different reasons.

And GW2 has plenty of conditional stuff that only happens on condition of something else, like doing more damage to targets that suffer from condition x or whatever.

Just a nice comparison for ya.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_necromancer_skills
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_necromancer_skills

I mean really. That’s GW1 after 3 expansions and GW2 after 1 expansion.

Not much weird going on in the GW1 list except a lot of skills in 1 list. GW2 has them grouped but there are still tons of skills and you do have to make choices in a different way.

You see a lot of conditional stuff in the GW1 Necro? And what about the GW2 Necro?

The GW2 skills can have up to 3 or 4 things going on at the same time. And some of the conditional stuff is actually put into the skill trees so it’s still there.

I can understand that people are not as smart as I like to assume but then they are also not getting the most out of their builds in GW2 just as GW1.

I think that the reason that GW2 is more accessible has to do with other things. Things like level sync and not having to team up to do content together for most of the game and getting lots of npcs in story missions.

No, the GW2 combat system is much more complex than you give it credit but they’ve made the game so that in general people don’t really notice if they have a bad build because you generally zerg things or just take longer to kill regular mobs.

HoT may have been too much for many because there you notice the differences more because aside from the meta there’s not a lot going on there usually, so you’re left to yourself or very small groups more often. People are faced with their builds then more than in the regular leveling zones I bet.

Okay, guilty secret time.

I loved using skill stealing in the first mission in Nightfall in hard mode. The guys only had one skill. If you stole it, they had no skills at all, and didn’t attack. I found it funny. lol

Vayne.8563:

Okay, guilty secret time.

I loved using skill stealing in the first mission in Nightfall in hard mode. The guys only had one skill. If you stole it, they had no skills at all, and didn’t attack. I found it funny. lol

hahhaha, that’s pretty hilarious actually

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Even the skills in Guild Wars 1 were more complex and more conditional over all. They related to each other. Do we have skills in this game that mimic other skills, or steal people’s skills and add them to your bar?

Skills in Guild Wars 1 tended to be more conditional and more dependent on other skills more often. One skill I remember required both a condition and a hex to be active on a player before it would proc properly.

No, there were a handful of peculiar skills but look it up…the vast majority of skills were straightforward and the really tricky ones you could ignore anyway. I mean who seriously used skill stealing?

Sure the Mesmer was a bit more tricky but in the end it is in GW2 as well just for different reasons.

And GW2 has plenty of conditional stuff that only happens on condition of something else, like doing more damage to targets that suffer from condition x or whatever.

Just a nice comparison for ya.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_necromancer_skills
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_necromancer_skills

I mean really. That’s GW1 after 3 expansions and GW2 after 1 expansion.

Not much weird going on in the GW1 list except a lot of skills in 1 list. GW2 has them grouped but there are still tons of skills and you do have to make choices in a different way.

You see a lot of conditional stuff in the GW1 Necro? And what about the GW2 Necro?

The GW2 skills can have up to 3 or 4 things going on at the same time. And some of the conditional stuff is actually put into the skill trees so it’s still there.

I can understand that people are not as smart as I like to assume but then they are also not getting the most out of their builds in GW2 just as GW1.

I think that the reason that GW2 is more accessible has to do with other things. Things like level sync and not having to team up to do content together for most of the game and getting lots of npcs in story missions.

No, the GW2 combat system is much more complex than you give it credit but they’ve made the game so that in general people don’t really notice if they have a bad build because you generally zerg things or just take longer to kill regular mobs.

HoT may have been too much for many because there you notice the differences more because aside from the meta there’s not a lot going on there usually, so you’re left to yourself or very small groups more often. People are faced with their builds then more than in the regular leveling zones I bet.

Select which skills you want to use with any weapon, construct your own build from all the so called skills available ……let me know when you can

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Select which skills you want to use with any weapon, construct your own build from all the so called skills available ……let me know when you can

I would like that but I don’t think it will happen. It’s not as easy as it may sound in the end.

Gehenna.3625:

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Select which skills you want to use with any weapon, construct your own build from all the so called skills available ……let me know when you can

I would like that but I don’t think it will happen. It’s not as easy as it may sound in the end.

Possibly, probably not…should have been done from the outset just like guild halls and a pile of other stuff. Nothing like taking a brilliant game and completely binning some of the best aspects of it for the sake of dumbing down for the console generation eh

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Nothing like taking a brilliant game and completely binning some of the best aspects of it for the sake of dumbing down for the console generation eh

Well this is a big part in the reason why I bought the game, started playing it and dropped in within a couple of months. GW2 has nothing in common with GW1 except the name. It was an automatic break of promise to those who were along for the ride from the first announcement of GW2.

People can like both GW1 and GW2, but nobody can maintain that the two games have much in common at all if anything. Just the cosmetics they are bringing back in. And because the systems are so different, I don’t expect them to bring back GW1 style skill choice in this game.

I can reminisce and complain forever that GW2 isn’t like GW1 at all and that they didn’t deliver on their earlier promises and representations. But that’s all water under the bridge now. I do play GW2 now casually and spent some money on it gladly, but I’ll never be into it as I was with GW1. Such is the reality for me and life does go on.

I never understand the calls to make one game more like another … Just go play the other game. No game can satisfy every player in every aspect, so we need a more compelling reason to have change than just ‘oh, I think this is the better way’.

As other said, it was a nightmare to balance, and there where a lot of skills that where close to doing the same thing as another’s with in the same profession. Then you have the hand full of skills that where useful. If you think back most builds had the same 3-4 core skills in any given build. As much as I love GW1, it suffers the same problems as GW2

Obtena.7952:

I never understand the calls to make one game more like another … Just go play the other game. No game can satisfy every player in every aspect, so we need a more compelling reason to have change than just ‘oh, I think this is the better way’.

You miss historical context. There are many games with multiple installments. Usually single player games. Take Mass Effect for example. There are 3 parts. Trust me. If part 2 and 3 had virtually nothing to do with the predecessors people would get upset.

When GW1 was running and ArenaNet started coming with the idea of a Guild Wars 2, the context was that GW1 had been much more successful than expected and they wanted to start over on a new basis because a lot of the stuff they wanted to do weren’t possible in how GW1 was set up and because they felt that with the expansions the players were too spread out in the game.

Mind you, the people who were then the development team didn’t make the GW2 as it was released. Over the development the developers were kicked out or left (I don’t know which) and in any rate the team was completely replaced and the game went into completely different directions than was originally planned.

The big problem here is that they kept the GW name even though it has nothing to do with the original game except some names. It’s a sequel that is the furthest away from it’s original of any game I’ve played. Of course ArenaNet kept up their usual marketing rhetoric and kept promising existing players it would be great.

But you take a movie that is rated 16+ for example and then make the sequel a 6+ movie then of course there will be rage about it, but this is part of the difference between GW1 and GW2 as well. GW1 was much darker and felt more mature. When GW2 came out it was a kid’s program. If you don’t understand that that can be disappointing, that’s on you. In that sense I am happy with HoT because at least it has lost that childish tone and gotten a bit more serious which fits the content of the story. That’s just one example.

ArenaNet shouldn’t have kept the name Guild Wars in my view or at least be honest about it being nothing like the original. But that would’ve hurt initial box sales. I get it, but it’s not very honest from where I’m sitting.

So really, I get that people can love GW2 and also that some people love both GW1 and GW2. Or just GW1 and not GW2. But nobody can really maintain that GW2 is a proper sequel to GW1. The games are too far apart for that. It’s like night and day.

And if you were there during GW1’s high times and remember how the developers introduced the idea of making a GW2, I don’t think anyone can honestly say that they expected the GW2 that did come out.

I think that some Star Wars fans might relate to this when Episode I came out, but as much as the hate against that it was still Star Wars. It was recognizable. GW2 was not recognizable for GW1 fans. Again, it doesn’t mean all GW1 fans hate GW2. I know for a fact that’s not true, but I do believe that they will also admit that GW2 is not even remotely similar to GW1.

For me, I stopped playing quickly. Tried again a year later, got bored again within a month and left. Now two years after that, I am enjoying the game more than before. I don’t see it as Guild Wars but it is what it is. But even though I enjoy playing it casually at the moment, I do not think GW2 is anywhere near good enough to make it my main game to play. For that the larger game doesn’t appeal to me still. I just like to bum around in maps and have the main masteries and will get some more elite specs completed. That’s about the extent of it.

BrotherBelial.3094:

As other said, it was a nightmare to balance, and there where a lot of skills that where close to doing the same thing as another’s with in the same profession. Then you have the hand full of skills that where useful. If you think back most builds had the same 3-4 core skills in any given build. As much as I love GW1, it suffers the same problems as GW2

That is only partially true. The cookie cutter builds that were considered best probably did, but as much as people could make total fail builds, you could actually make good builds with a variety of skills and it wasn’t linked to your weapon set. It certainly wasn’t a perfect game but it had a lot of good things in it that were just completely ignored for GW2 and that’s the part I never really got. It’s like the new team was jealous of the old team and didn’t want to give em credit, so they stripped out all the old for the sake of stripping it out. A sort of misplaced professional pride.

GW2 shouldn’t have been a copy of GW1, but it could’ve been more of a sequel and it certainly never felt like a sequel to the original game.

Look, at the end of the day, no one can deny that going from GW1, which had a long time and a lot of expansions to build its skill list, to GW2, which had only a fraction of the GW1 skills was a huge shock for a lot of veteran players. People simply want more options. All there is to it. As to how exactly we should do that with GW2, I have no idea though.

Gehenna.3625:

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Nothing like taking a brilliant game and completely binning some of the best aspects of it for the sake of dumbing down for the console generation eh

Well this is a big part in the reason why I bought the game, started playing it and dropped in within a couple of months. GW2 has nothing in common with GW1 except the name. It was an automatic break of promise to those who were along for the ride from the first announcement of GW2.

People can like both GW1 and GW2, but nobody can maintain that the two games have much in common at all if anything. Just the cosmetics they are bringing back in. And because the systems are so different, I don’t expect them to bring back GW1 style skill choice in this game.

I can reminisce and complain forever that GW2 isn’t like GW1 at all and that they didn’t deliver on their earlier promises and representations. But that’s all water under the bridge now. I do play GW2 now casually and spent some money on it gladly, but I’ll never be into it as I was with GW1. Such is the reality for me and life does go on.

Wasn’t a break of a promise to me and I was a die hard Guild Wars 1 player. They said there would be less skills, and they said there would be no second profession. I’m not sure what information you were listening to, but I knew LONG before preorders opened this game wouldn’t be like Guild Wars 1 with the way skills were set up.

A promise is when they say they’ll do something absolutely and they don’t. In this case, they said they weren’t going to do it, and people either didn’t pay attention or didn’t believe it.

They said a number of contradictory things. Clarity has never been one of Anet’s strong points.

Gehenna.3625:

Obtena.7952:

I never understand the calls to make one game more like another … Just go play the other game. No game can satisfy every player in every aspect, so we need a more compelling reason to have change than just ‘oh, I think this is the better way’.

You miss historical context. There are many games with multiple installments. Usually single player games. Take Mass Effect for example. There are 3 parts. Trust me. If part 2 and 3 had virtually nothing to do with the predecessors people would get upset.

That’s exactly my point … If Anet was making GW1 Part 2, I think everything the Op asked for would make sense.

Anyone that thought GW2 was going to be that seems to have unrealistic expectations. As a matter of fact, if my memory serves, Anet stated there would be lots of things in GW2 that weren’t going to be the same as GW1 … and less skillset was one of them.

The thread title is funny … bring them back? We never had them. GW2 is its own beast and is successful in the beast that it is. It appeals to entry level MMO players that are pressed for time. I can’t even imagine after 4 years that someone would seriously suggest such that thing that would threaten the playerbase GW2 has established.

Ashen.2907:

They said a number of contradictory things. Clarity has never been one of Anet’s strong points.

Before launch they told us straight out that skills would be linked to weapons. They gave examples. They told us straight out there would be ten skills, five determined by the weapon. They even said one would be a dedicated slot for healing and one would be an elite slot. They said directly there would be less skills than Guild Wars 1 as well.

Entire discussions happened on Guild Wars 2 guru about people being worried because there were less skills. This was something that was widely known before the game launched.

Wow.
Going to the real Tyria, now.

Gehenna.3625:

Balkarrie Legacy.9175:

Nothing like taking a brilliant game and completely binning some of the best aspects of it for the sake of dumbing down for the console generation eh

Well this is a big part in the reason why I bought the game, started playing it and dropped in within a couple of months. GW2 has nothing in common with GW1 except the name. It was an automatic break of promise to those who were along for the ride from the first announcement of GW2.

People can like both GW1 and GW2, but nobody can maintain that the two games have much in common at all if anything. Just the cosmetics they are bringing back in. And because the systems are so different, I don’t expect them to bring back GW1 style skill choice in this game.

I can reminisce and complain forever that GW2 isn’t like GW1 at all and that they didn’t deliver on their earlier promises and representations. But that’s all water under the bridge now. I do play GW2 now casually and spent some money on it gladly, but I’ll never be into it as I was with GW1. Such is the reality for me and life does go on.

I agree with this completely. I remember being so excited when they announced ‘the next chapter for Guild Wars’ only to find out it had nothing in common with the old game. The systems that made GW1 so amazing are nowhere to be found in GW2. Also I am a sucker for the GW1 combat system so GW2 was never really going to be IT for me. I still enjoy the game though.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

They said a number of contradictory things. Clarity has never been one of Anet’s strong points.

Before launch they told us straight out that skills would be linked to weapons. They gave examples. They told us straight out there would be ten skills, five determined by the weapon. They even said one would be a dedicated slot for healing and one would be an elite slot. They said directly there would be less skills than Guild Wars 1 as well.

Entire discussions happened on Guild Wars 2 guru about people being worried because there were less skills. This was something that was widely known before the game launched.

In fact, it was known as early as september 2010, almost two years before game launch: wiki archive 1, wiki archive 2

I agree one can like or dislike the differences between GW1 and GW2 skill systems, but surely there was much time for anyone to form an educated opinion about them, well before game launch.

EDIT: I just found an old GW2Guru discussion dating 01 May 2010 where a quote by Regina Buenaobra specifically refers to the skillbar composition: "You will also be able to use different weapon combinations: If for example, you have an axe in your main hand, this will define your first three skills. Pick up a shield – this defines the next 2 skills. Switch to a mace in your offhand – those skills change, basically giving you a different set of combinations. Switch to a Greatsword and you get 5 completely different skills.

All of this is then complemented by your free choice for the other 5 slots. Yes, one slot is reserved for a healing skill, and one for an elite skill – but we are not talking about one healing skill here, you will have a variety of different heal and elite skills to slot, each with their different flavors, each changing the way you actually play (aka your build)." So yeah, plenty of time to inform yourself about it.

TheManowar.2014:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

They said a number of contradictory things. Clarity has never been one of Anet’s strong points.

Before launch they told us straight out that skills would be linked to weapons. They gave examples. They told us straight out there would be ten skills, five determined by the weapon. They even said one would be a dedicated slot for healing and one would be an elite slot. They said directly there would be less skills than Guild Wars 1 as well.

Entire discussions happened on Guild Wars 2 guru about people being worried because there were less skills. This was something that was widely known before the game launched.

In fact, it was known as early as september 2010, almost two years before game launch: wiki archive 1, wiki archive 2

I agree one can like or dislike the differences between GW1 and GW2 skill systems, but surely there was much time for anyone to form an educated opinion about them, well before game launch.

EDIT: I just found an old GW2Guru discussion dating 01 May 2010 where a quote by Regina Buenaobra specifically refers to the skillbar composition: "You will also be able to use different weapon combinations: If for example, you have an axe in your main hand, this will define your first three skills. Pick up a shield – this defines the next 2 skills. Switch to a mace in your offhand – those skills change, basically giving you a different set of combinations. Switch to a Greatsword and you get 5 completely different skills.

All of this is then complemented by your free choice for the other 5 slots. Yes, one slot is reserved for a healing skill, and one for an elite skill – but we are not talking about one healing skill here, you will have a variety of different heal and elite skills to slot, each with their different flavors, each changing the way you actually play (aka your build)." So yeah, plenty of time to inform yourself about it.

You’re my hero. lol

I have a pretty good memory about this stuff, but because I had to do a lot of research for a living, I sort of burned out on looking stuff up. Fortunately, people like you exist.

looks like a huge mess

Comparing “dagger skills” with “dagger skills” that’s such an accurate comparison. At least put some effort into it.

This is actually something I don’t think gets enough attention. I honestly think this is one of the main reasons that GW2 does not possess the same ability to hold players’ attention over the long term that GW1 did. There’s too little of the type of character development which creates immersion – too many levels for the number of abilities you acquire, not enough character/profession personalization, too much on-rails gameplay.

And it’s all for the sake of balance. But an MMO really needs to have a lot of customization for players to experiment with. “Balance” is a terrible reason to get rid of options or lock down customization, because balance can never be perfect and tends excessively preoccupy game designers. It’s better to just focus on fun and creativity, and iterate frequently with changes to outliers.

I don’t really think we need thousands of skills, but, IMO, we need a few more than we have, and greater freedom to mix and match.

Vayne.8563:

You’re my hero. lol

I have a pretty good memory about this stuff, but because I had to do a lot of research for a living, I sort of burned out on looking stuff up. Fortunately, people like you exist.

Lol, thanks! I usually don’t bother to debunk this kind of stuff, but this was too big to let it pass.

My 2 cents on the topic: I surely would appreciate a bit of novelty for weapon and utility skills, but overall I’m quite satisfied about GW2 complexity level. Don’t think it really needs the overflowing number of skills GW1 had.
The one thing I really miss, however, is the possibility to save and switch builds on the fly, instead of manually change every trait and skill.

Sabway! 55 monk (the original Protective Bond version)!

Oooh the memories!