Guild Wars 2

So I know that there have been several posts recently about “bringing back the holy trinity” or “nerfing zerk gear”, and Id just like to start this off by saying I don’t support either of these approaches to build diversity. The way zerker gear is currently set up works perfectly fine, and would not be broken if it were not for the content that we have to play with. There are two reasons that build diversity cannot happen, and they are that conditions do not equal the damage potential of direct damage and are therefore underwhelming, and that absorbing damage is not something to be taken into consideration- the name of the game is damage mitigation.

I believe both of these problems could be solved by altering the way that enemies, primarily bosses and champions, deal damage. I dont even think that they need to deal MORE damage. The problem is that the majority of the encounters’ damage comes from 2-3 well telegraphed moves with absolutely MASSIVE amounts of time in between them. This means that damage absorption, i.e. toughness and vitality, is irrelevant because these attacks are either avoided with dodge roles or aegis. To solve this problem, bosses need to spread their damage across multiple interspersed and frequent attacks that would force a party to take some of the damage, and come up with ways to respond to that damage. The legendary flame effigy in CoF is an excellent example of this. Its commonplace for this boss to be killed in around 30 seconds, with minimal risk to the party. This enemy is LEGENDARY difficulty, and unless you are missing fingers for your WASD keys, there is no chance of you losing your Rune of the Scholar bonus, let alone going into downed state.

Another change that should be made (and is currently being implemented in new content so some degree) is greater implementation of incoming conditions. Group support condition cleanse as a necessity could see some underused builds and traits see more use(like unholy martyr for necro).

I understand that these are extreme and intensive changes, but to encourage the longevity of the game I think it is worth it. Eliminating the holy trinity is one of the core concepts of this game, and the fact that every class could potentially fill every role, from conditions and dps to group support and healing is to me one of the most attractive concepts of this game. The fact that we are forced to make builds that utilize maximum damage makes us miss out on the potential creativity this game has to offer.

And btw, the argument “just LFG for a group that accepts all” isnt really valid in my opinion because it is foolish not to use the most efficient thing. A build should be unique, but also be necessary and needed.

More difficult bosses would be awesome. But it wouldn’t change the meta. Ppl would bring an Hammer guardian, all take skale venom and find a way to melee it and its not a bad thing.

Harder difficult will only push ppl to go toward more active defense, damage mitigation, etc. Stuff that is already good in the game. They won’t go for passive defense like defensive stats. Which again is a good thing.

Not every build and stat array will or should ever be ‘necessary and needed’. In point of fact, the only thing berserker is ‘necessary and needed’ for is to speed clear.

That’s it. Those that can’t play zerker glass well will not find it to be the most efficient thing.

This problem is a manufactured notion, not a factual one.

Nobody needs to run berserker gear to complete content.

Nobody. Not one, not maybe, not ‘some’ – nobody.

While the premise of your suggestions is fine to its intention, realize also that Anet has no demonstrated intention of balancing PvE separately from PvP.

How will your proposed changes alter the PvP landscape?

I think the discussion ended the moment that question was asked, because the answer is ‘radically’, which promptly throws the whole matter straight into the ‘not likely going to ever happen’ bin.

Also, no, everyone’s random crap builds should not be necessary and needed. If you come into a dungeon wearing 1 piece of Clerics, 3 pieces of Soldiers, 1 piece of Zerkers, 1 piece of Carrion, two Valkyrie ear-rings, one celestial-statted amulet, one Apothecary-statted ring and one Shaman-statted ring while flailing about with functionally irrelevant or outright not-present sigils and runes?

You should not be relevant no matter how precious to you your special-snowflake ‘build’ is.

Content is static. The needs for it will always be static no matter what those needs happen to be. If they swing the pendulum some other way, something else will become the new meta for that content.

There will never be PvE content more compelling than one-shotting critters is that can be some sort of magically valuing of all builds and approaches, because if it were? If it were truly that? It would require all of them just to complete it.

And that’s not how they build anything here.

They build it more so a group of total tools that can barely read and are running around at level 80 in randomly-statted gear that spans a range of level 61 to their one totally random level 80 Cleric’s exotic chest piece and has barely learned how to dodge in the directions they intend to at the best of times can have a fighting chance of clearing dungeon content.

If you want to clear that and similar content quickly and reliably? You’re gonna need to get pickier about your stats and the skill level going into the endeavor.

There are, however, no paths of any dungeon and no fractals at all that require berserker gear. The only reward for using it is potentially faster clear times…in the hands of the decently capable.

Nobody is forced to make builds that maximize damage. This is simply flat wrong – this, sir, is a lie. Nobody is FORCED to do anything of the sort. Not by circumstance, not by anything.

If you think you’re forced, you need better friends, not a differently balanced game.

Ok first off, zerker gear IS undeniably, the most efficient gear stat. There is absolutely no reason to chose another stat combination, and once you have mastered the art of dodge rolling and know the content, anybody can run a zerker build.

Secondly, none of my changes will alter the PVP landscape one bit. Not ONE iota. At no point did I suggest altering stats or skills, only PvE bosses. So Im not sure where you got this notion of PvP endangerment.

Thirdly. I didnt say that “everyones crap build” should be accepted. What I mean is that if you develop a well reasoned and cohesive build, you should be able to use it. For instance, I would like to make a necro death-cleric that takes my allies conditions while providing mass aoe heals. Is this build cohesive and does it work with itself? Yes. Does it matter in any current pve context? Definitely not.

Youre taking the word “required” too literally. Nobody is signing a contract, but as I’ve stated before and as you seem to agree with me, youre wasting everyone’s time not doing it. I also like how you literally took the LAST SENTENCE of my essay long post “necessary and needed” and used it for most of your counter argument. Good job.

The problem is that no matter what happens no matter the stat combination that becomes king there will always be a meta run by the elite.

The second problem is that there are sheep who aren’t elite idolize those that are and spout of drivel about zerk or gtfo. The way you can tell is that those people LFG instead of running with the people they know who fit the same mindset as them.

The game does not require you to build a certain way. That’s a player driven requirement. You always help others just by being in their group provided that you have any skill at all. Even if your stats are less than optimal you still provide companionship and bring something to those you group with. Really anyone who says differently aren’t really those you want to group with anyway.

Setay.2135:

The problem is that no matter what happens no matter the stat combination that becomes king there will always be a meta run by the elite.

wut?

It’s far from just the “elite” that run zerker meta. Most of the people I play with run it or a combo there of because we’ve completed content 1000x already and don’t really care to “stop and smell the roses” or kill every d___ thing. It’s old. Been there and done that. I know what’s next already. I’ve learned the content. I want to get through it as fast as possible and gets my loot. If you don’t want to play that way remember my account name and quickly leave party if you join in… not that I mean you specifically I am using the term you in a general context… unless you’re a PHIW… then I mean you.

Completely agree. Although berserker’s gear is definitely the most efficient set right now, no one is entitled to run it. Sometimes I change things up and run a condition build on my warrior.

tboneking.2531:

Ok first off, zerker gear IS undeniably, the most efficient gear stat. There is absolutely no reason to chose another stat combination, and once you have mastered the art of dodge rolling and know the content, anybody can run a zerker build.

Plenty of folks in several of the PvE guilds I’m in clearly don’t agree with you, and run whatever they feel like in casual ’we’re bored, lets do this’ dungeon runs. We’ve even done myriad assorted naked runs. Nothing in the remotest of ways makes Berserker stats ‘more efficient’ than the desire to speed clear. If your desires are elsewise, the definition of ‘efficient’ in how to efficiently approach that desire changes with it.

tboneking.2531:

Secondly, none of my changes will alter the PVP landscape one bit. Not ONE iota. At no point did I suggest altering stats or skills, only PvE bosses. So Im not sure where you got this notion of PvP endangerment.

You only suggest rolling boulders down hills, not sending boulders calamitously rolling into unforeseeable directions and causing cascades of new problems that will, in this not-vacuum, wind up affecting many things.

You think this can be fixed so simply as that? You haven’t really thought about it at all, if so.

tboneking.2531:

Thirdly. I didnt say that “everyones crap build” should be accepted. What I mean is that if you develop a well reasoned and cohesive build, you should be able to use it. For instance, I would like to make a necro death-cleric that takes my allies conditions while providing mass aoe heals. Is this build cohesive and does it work with itself? Yes. Does it matter in any current pve context? Definitely not.

Your build is crap because you seem to have this single-minded notion that speed clearing is the only objective. No, you’ll never be a speed clearing maven with a necro, let alone one built like that.

I’d be willing to bet that a few decent players could clear every dungeon in the game with a whole team of those though. No sweat, really.

Sounds like a get-better-friends issue on that one, mate.

tboneking.2531:

Youre taking the word “required” too literally. Nobody is signing a contract, but as I’ve stated before and as you seem to agree with me, youre wasting everyone’s time not doing it. I also like how you literally took the LAST SENTENCE of my essay long post “necessary and needed” and used it for most of your counter argument. Good job.

No, you’re using the word ‘required’ incorrectly, and it does not mean what you are using it to mean.

Next time, develop a cogent point that you don’t destroy by your own careless misuse of terms and hyperbolic presumptions of extremity.

My point remains: Berserker is neither necessary nor needed for clearing content. It isn’t even ideal for it if those involved don’t have the skill or the mere interest in the aggressive playstyle zerker gear and builds demand to function at their peaks.

The only thing berserker gear is necessary for is speed clearing. As popular amongst some as speed clearing is, I throw pug runs up almost every dang day I play, yo.

I have run every path of every dungeon many, many times. I know what they require and do not.

If you’re not worried about speedrunning, there are an awful lot of people that will be happy to poke along and casually clear it all with you. Make your build be useful. Put together a little team to try different approaches.

For god’s sake, try having fun with it for a change, as it seems you’re lockstepped into some sort of monocular presumption that speedclear is all that matters and if it isn’t a speed run its irrelevant garbage.

Get over it. And while you’re at it, get some better friends.

tboneking.2531:

Thirdly. I didnt say that “everyones crap build” should be accepted. What I mean is that if you develop a well reasoned and cohesive build, you should be able to use it. For instance, I would like to make a necro death-cleric that takes my allies conditions while providing mass aoe heals. Is this build cohesive and does it work with itself? Yes. Does it matter in any current pve context? Definitely not.

The thing is, everyone will think their build is well reasoned and cohesive.

Meaning that everyone will think their build fits the meta and therefore they shouldn’t be kicked for it.

Meaning even more people that the speed run group has to kick because they don’t meet the requirements.

And they make your changes, diversity happens for a bit. A week, to a few weeks, as the elite math nerds crunch the numbers.

Then a new meta comes up. It may not be zerker, but there will be a new meta for each class. And poof goes the diversity. Speed run groups are back to looking for a specific build for whatever specific class that joins.

Meta does not equal viable. Meta equals optimal. Casual PHIW groups need viable. All builds are viable. Elite speed run groups need optimal. They need the meta. Current meta is zerker. Change mechanics, the optimal build will change, the viable builds will still be viable. Elite speed run groups will just end up looking for a different build.

thefantasticg why do you lfg at all? I’m not going to leave a group if I dont run zerk just because you dont like it. you’re free to kick me but then I wonder why you LFG at all. Just run with others that are of the same mindset.

If you LFG expect that you will get people who don’t fit your playstyle. Sure you can kick them all you want but that drives people away from the game who may not know the fights just because you’re unwilling to give a little.

The only reason people run Zerk meta is because of all the brainwashing that has happened from the sheep who instill this sort of fear on the masses that if they dont go that way they’ll never be allowed to group.

I’m personally unaffected by such outlandish claims that things have to be done a certain way. I will always accept others even though almost all of my characters run zerk gear.

As a matter of fact I will always leave a group that kicks another player for not gearing what they consider properly. I then group with that person and find others to join.

People should know that not everyone in this game is a jerk.

This horse died a long time ago. Can we let it rest in peace please?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/This-Meta-has-to-end/first#post4602051