Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: gishalicious.3510

gishalicious.3510

I’m sure I’m not the only one who came from GW1 to say this, but one of the best features there was that we could save build templates and load them immediately when we wanted to change builds. I know that weapons make up your first 5 skills, but that doesn’t mean you couldn’t save changes for Traits and the other 5 skills. I understand that GW1 had a ton more skills to choose from, including secondary classes, but what with legendary back items, armor, and weapons, people are needing to change their builds more and more these days, so if it’s not already being worked on, it should be. As with my previous post, I hope that some Devs see this, but again, if not, if you agree with this get the messages out there. Arena Net makes changes all the time, I don’t see why they can’t do a couple more.

Sincerely and with Hope,
Gish

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

ANet staff have commented on this a few times (none recently that I recall). Each time, they’ve said more or less the same things: they’d definitely like to do something, but it’s more complicated than we think. For example, gear stats & upgrades (e.g. runes) are critical to builds, so how should they be handled? What sort of UI would there be? How many builds can be displayed?

My hope is that they’d stop worrying about the “right” solution and get working on a “right now” system. Perhaps just displaying the builds, so you can manually edit to match.

Regardless, it’s on their radar; it just doesn’t seem to be enough of a priority to have made it into the game in the last 5 years.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: jheryn.8390

jheryn.8390

My hope is that they’d stop worrying about the “right” solution and get working on a “right now” system. Perhaps just displaying the builds, so you can manually edit to match.

This. Definitely this.

At very least, just having the ability to switch the traits and skills in a saved build would be enough for me. I can switch my own equipment. On several of my characters I have a power and condi build. On my druid I have those and a healing build. If I didn’t have to switch the traits and skills around every time, that would be a big help.

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Posted by: Vegeta.2563

Vegeta.2563

Hasn’t this horse been beat enough?

It’s been asked for even before HoT came out..

This Guild Is Fire [PRUF]

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

ANet staff have commented on this a few times (none recently that I recall). Each time, they’ve said more or less the same things: they’d definitely like to do something, but it’s more complicated than we think. For example, gear stats & upgrades (e.g. runes) are critical to builds, so how should they be handled? What sort of UI would there be? How many builds can be displayed?

My hope is that they’d stop worrying about the “right” solution and get working on a “right now” system. Perhaps just displaying the builds, so you can manually edit to match.

Regardless, it’s on their radar; it just doesn’t seem to be enough of a priority to have made it into the game in the last 5 years.

I’d be happy with maybe 3 templates per game mode per character of just Traits, gear, utility skills.

Sigils and runes ? don’t worry about them at all, whatever is in the gear gets equipped with it or unequipped with it.

Consumables ? Don’t worry about it, activate / deactivate consumables manually. I wouldn’t want it automatic anyways because then it would lead to wasting them.

Only thing I see is that there would need to be a timer to prevent players from switching mid combat or too close to combat. So the builds need to be switched while out of combat only for 30 seconds to 3 minutes (number is arbitrary, debatable and adjustable). This timer I think also should be slightly higher in PVP and WVW then PVE maps for obvious reasons.

Don’t know why something like this isn’t in the game yet.

They could also make additional build slots purchasable with gems, kinda like bank tabs, inventory slots etc. This would fund any dev time for the feature and then some.

Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF

(edited by Tongku.5326)

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

It’ll likely be locked behind an expansion.

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Posted by: Faaris.8013

Faaris.8013

ANet staff have commented on this a few times (none recently that I recall). Each time, they’ve said more or less the same things: they’d definitely like to do something, but it’s more complicated than we think. For example, gear stats & upgrades (e.g. runes) are critical to builds, so how should they be handled?

What? They could just add a macro. Anything that can be done by clicking can be done automatically. Click on a button to record, make your changes, stop, save in a slot with a number. I don’t believe that is difficult to implement and it would make a lot of people happy. Most times, using a solution that’s not the most elegant is better than a perfect solution that will never be found or implemented.

I don’t see how runes and sigils could be a problem. I cannot switch runes or sigils manually, so I don’t even expect that to be automated.

Sorry, but that cannot be what the devs said, but I’m happy to read what they wrote.

Herleve – Ruins of Surmia

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

ANet staff have commented on this a few times (none recently that I recall). Each time, they’ve said more or less the same things: they’d definitely like to do something, but it’s more complicated than we think. For example, gear stats & upgrades (e.g. runes) are critical to builds, so how should they be handled?

What? They could just add a macro. Anything that can be done by clicking can be done automatically. Click on a button to record, make your changes, stop, save in a slot with a number. I don’t believe that is difficult to implement and it would make a lot of people happy. Most times, using a solution that’s not the most elegant is better than a perfect solution that will never be found or implemented.

I don’t see how runes and sigils could be a problem. I cannot switch runes or sigils manually, so I don’t even expect that to be automated.

Sorry, but that cannot be what the devs said, but I’m happy to read what they wrote.

Even the things that appear to be simple to implement may not be so. We don’t know how they designed their system.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

It’ll likely be locked behind an expansion.

Locked behind? Probably not.
I’d discount the idea of locking behind even more, but auto-loot is technically expansion-locked. But, it’s also a convenience feature, not something requiring a UI overhaul.

Concurrent with an expansion release? Likely.
A UI/system change like that, if we assume ANet’s M.O., will come either with a feature pack or with/close to an expansion.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

It’ll likely be locked behind an expansion.

Locked behind? Probably not.
I’d discount the idea of locking behind even more, but auto-loot is technically expansion-locked. But, it’s also a convenience feature, not something requiring a UI overhaul.

Concurrent with an expansion release? Likely.
A UI/system change like that, if we assume ANet’s M.O., will come either with a feature pack or with/close to an expansion.

They could very well lock it behind a mastery. Whether or not it requires a UI overhaul shouldn’t impact this.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

It’ll likely be locked behind an expansion.

Locked behind? Probably not.
I’d discount the idea of locking behind even more, but auto-loot is technically expansion-locked. But, it’s also a convenience feature, not something requiring a UI overhaul.

Concurrent with an expansion release? Likely.
A UI/system change like that, if we assume ANet’s M.O., will come either with a feature pack or with/close to an expansion.

They could very well lock it behind a mastery. Whether or not it requires a UI overhaul shouldn’t impact this.

It’s all speculation, then. I suppose don’t bother examining motives when anything could happen.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Serophous.9085

Serophous.9085

I’ve been messing in UE4 to build a simple game, and when people say it would be an easy install, show they know nothing of programming

There would be checks to see if out of combat
Checks for what to do if in middle of respecting and go into combat, what to do if they did, etc.
Making sure the refund works, gives back proper amount, correctly functions if hit before confirming.

That’s just the tip of the iceberg. I didn’t get into database storage, upgrading tables with new columns when new specializations come out, ensuring expandability etc

Explain again how this is “easy”?

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Posted by: Faaris.8013

Faaris.8013

@Serophous: Who said a UI overhaul is easy? I read the thread again and nobody said that.

I would be happy if they added a row above the skill bar with numbers 1 to 3. You set up your traits, then ctrl-click on one of them, saved. Next time you simply click on it, your saved traits are active.

That’s not an overhaul of the UI. Is that overly complicated for a professional developer team?

Herleve – Ruins of Surmia

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

@Serophous: Who said a UI overhaul is easy? I read the thread again and nobody said that.

I would be happy if they added a row above the skill bar with numbers 1 to 3. You set up your traits, then ctrl-click on one of them, saved. Next time you simply click on it, your saved traits are active.

That’s not an overhaul of the UI. Is that overly complicated for a professional developer team?

You did when you made the changes that could be made as if they’d be nothing to implement.

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Posted by: Faaris.8013

Faaris.8013

You did when you made the changes that could be made as if they’d be nothing to implement.

I said let’s put a picture on that wall, Serophous replied with “You obviously have no idea about interior design if you think refurbishing a room is easy!”

Herleve – Ruins of Surmia

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Posted by: Serophous.9085

Serophous.9085

You did when you made the changes that could be made as if they’d be nothing to implement.

I said let’s put a picture on that wall, Serophous replied with “You obviously have no idea about interior design if you think refurbishing a room is easy!”

To your first post, overly complicated =/= easy to implement. It’s getting it to work.

Again, I’d encourage you to try UE4 yourself and see how the more systems you are, they harder to maintain and ensure they work becomes.

But let’s use your picture analogy.

Just hang it on a wall…? Are you taking in consideration that else is in the room? Are you going to hang it close to the ceiling? Floor? Behind something?

As a programmer, I hate vague answers. They lead to a project that won’t meet the customers expectations because they’ll suddenly remember new details or features that need added. Causing more work and delaying time to get to other projects

So, you don’t just hang a picture on a wall. You take into consideration of everything in the room and what can be behind a wall, before hanging a picture

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Posted by: Yakez.7561

Yakez.7561

It was always quite puzzling why in the first place after having this feature in GW1 it was not implemented in 2012 release.

Considering all that 2012 manifesto jazz and flexible support/damage/heal system.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

It was always quite puzzling why in the first place after having this feature in GW1 it was not implemented in 2012 release.

Considering all that 2012 manifesto jazz and flexible support/damage/heal system.

Maybe it’s more complicated than in GW1 or that the game wouldn’t require players to change builds that often as before. Honestly, how many people change builds often rather than just stick with whatever the existing meta is for their game mode?

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Posted by: Bunter.3795

Bunter.3795

In GW1 there were weapon templates (the 1-4 buttons) that allowed you to have 4 different weapon sets ready to go for when use need different bonuses from the various weapons (such as a vs demons, or a +% for enchantments, etc) You had to have the weapons in your inventory and it gave you a confirmation prompt if you wanted to sell one of those weapons. It’s basically been replaced by the weapon swap system we have since launch though I’d like to see some form of this come back as it was useful.

The build templates were only for the attributes and allowed you to save any sort of combination with a name you could input as you saw fit and was saved on your computer and not in the game itself. Gear and weapons were not saved with the templates.

Some of the posts are linking the two things. I, personally, would like to be able to save the builds so I could swap between them as needed. For example having the ability to save builds for a ranger (or necro for that matter) between a condition build and power would be great. The gear and weapons could be left to us to make sure it’s right but the basic utility of saving the builds and reloading them instantly would be great.

Difficult or not it’s something people (especially those from GW1) would love to see in the game.

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Posted by: Yakez.7561

Yakez.7561

It was always quite puzzling why in the first place after having this feature in GW1 it was not implemented in 2012 release.

Considering all that 2012 manifesto jazz and flexible support/damage/heal system.

Maybe it’s more complicated than in GW1 or that the game wouldn’t require players to change builds that often as before. Honestly, how many people change builds often rather than just stick with whatever the existing meta is for their game mode?

Warrior. Every day in fractals when there is other warrior. Cause most other wars to lazy to ask what are u running, or even change something while they know that you are PS. So it is like build switch every 10-30 mins. Then I have different build for open world. And if I would like go for the raids?

Ranger. Constant vise versa Heal Druid (Raids/Fractals) > Condi Ranger (Raids/Fractals) > Power Ranger (Lazy open world exploring/gathering)

Guardian is another big one. I gave up switching him from DH to Guard. Made him WvW frontliner.

Ele. My first char in GW2. Just gave up without weapon sets.

All four classes have great support builds for PvE. But you use this builds like, once-twice a day. And I do not like switching chars to often. It is more like one-two week per char before I want to switch class.

Other classes yes, I have Revenant, Engi and Mesmer with permanent builds.

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Posted by: Faaris.8013

Faaris.8013

Thief in Fractals, I switch there every couple of minutes, traits and skills. Depends on the group (pug or guild) and on the next boss (melee or ranged).

I also switch from Trickery to Deadly Arts back and forth in Open World, Trickery for roaming with ranged, Deadly Arts when there’s a tougher encounter/World Boss.

Herleve – Ruins of Surmia

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

customisable ui where you at?

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Posted by: marelooke.9708

marelooke.9708

It was always quite puzzling why in the first place after having this feature in GW1 it was not implemented in 2012 release.

Considering all that 2012 manifesto jazz and flexible support/damage/heal system.

Maybe it’s more complicated than in GW1 or that the game wouldn’t require players to change builds that often as before. Honestly, how many people change builds often rather than just stick with whatever the existing meta is for their game mode?

On my Chronomancer I very often swap between builds (I have 2 already for WvW: a boonbot build and a roaming build), for PvE I have one for soloing and one for general PvE, I expect to use yet another build for fractals (haven’t bothered with those much yet on my Mesmer). sPvP already has its own system but I can imagine multiple builds being useful there as well depending on team composition.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I probably should have specified it was a rhetorical question.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

I probably should have specified it was a rhetorical question.

rhet·o·ric
noun
the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the use of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.

Unfortunately, the question didn’t seem to persuade anyone. :P You got lots of examples of people who have many different builds, and templates would make that so much easier.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

(edited by Rauderi.8706)

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I probably should have specified it was a rhetorical question.

rhet·o·ric
?red?rik/
noun
the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the use of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.

Unfortunately, the question didn’t seem to persuade anyone. :P You got lots of examples of people who have many different builds, and templates would make that so much easier.

Three people… compared to the entire playerbase.

Also, I said rhetorical question and not rhetoric. Although similar, they’re not the same.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

I probably should have specified it was a rhetorical question.

rhet·o·ric
noun
the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the use of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.

Unfortunately, the question didn’t seem to persuade anyone. :P You got lots of examples of people who have many different builds, and templates would make that so much easier.

Three people… compared to the entire playerbase.

Also, I said rhetorical question and not rhetoric. Although similar, they’re not the same.

rhe·tor·i·cal
adjective
relating to or concerned with the art of rhetoric. [See recursion about persuasion]
(of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.

Then why bother asking the question? Just say what you want. If you don’t want build templates, then say you don’t. A fake question (that got answered, ha) poses no intent of an opinion. It’s akin to sarcasm.

One half-statement versus three representative statements certainly skews on the side of those requesting build templates. Make that four. I want templates too.

Why?
Because it would encourage me to:

  1. experiment with builds more
  2. pull away from have one “traveling” or “meta” build that tries to do everything
  3. embrace GW2’s flexibility and better adapt to in-game situations

Out of all the QoL improvements we could currently hope for, build templates probably has the greatest impact on actual gameplay.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I probably should have specified it was a rhetorical question.

rhet·o·ric
noun
the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the use of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.

Unfortunately, the question didn’t seem to persuade anyone. :P You got lots of examples of people who have many different builds, and templates would make that so much easier.

Three people… compared to the entire playerbase.

Also, I said rhetorical question and not rhetoric. Although similar, they’re not the same.

rhe·tor·i·cal
adjective
relating to or concerned with the art of rhetoric. [See recursion about persuasion]
(of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.

Then why bother asking the question? Just say what you want. If you don’t want build templates, then say you don’t. A fake question (that got answered, ha) poses no intent of an opinion. It’s akin to sarcasm.

One half-statement versus three representative statements certainly skews on the side of those requesting build templates. Make that four. I want templates too.

Why?
Because it would encourage me to:

  1. experiment with builds more
  2. pull away from have one “traveling” or “meta” build that tries to do everything
  3. embrace GW2’s flexibility and better adapt to in-game situations

Out of all the QoL improvements we could currently hope for, build templates probably has the greatest impact on actual gameplay.

It was to add to the point that players on the whole likely do not change their builds often enough to have warranted Anet to have included it at launch. There may still not be enough players that change builds to make it a high priority to Anet. So many players have this “meta or gtfo” mentality so they’ll generally play the one build. Sure, there are players that do swap stuff around when needed but is that really the case for the majority of players?

I’m not against build templates. If you read my post, and the one I was responding to, I was providing them a possible answer.

As far as rhetorical questions go, they could have answers or they could have not. I suggest that you look up rhetorical questions specifically, and how they’re used, instead of just “rhetorical”. Somekbe could tell me that they died trying to solo a legendary and I could respond with a “You think?”. It may be a question but I’m not expecting an actual answer.

There likely will not be a large uptick in players changing builds with build templates for the same reasons that players will not swap out a single utility skill or change a single trait. Many of the situations that players encounter could be done more efficiently with a build specific to the situation they’re in. However, the gain from that is minimal due to the design of GW2 compared to GW1.

Anyways, arguing back and forth over the meaning isn’t going to contribute anything. I was simply giving one possible answer to a poster’s question and ended with a question that was intended to not be answered but be more of a statement.

(edited by Ayrilana.1396)

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Posted by: AtlasSi.9130

AtlasSi.9130

Hasn’t this horse been beat enough?

It’s been asked for even before HoT came out..

Personally I will beat it dead over and over and over again. Then beat it dead even more…I refuse to quit till it gets put into the game. Especially with raids being a thing now. Don’t need 2 condi druids? Okay bam…one click now you have 1 heal 1 condi. Build templates are an extreme QoL. Rather then overhaul an already fully functional HotM…do something greatly needed for those that have alts/raid a lot.

It’ll likely be locked behind an expansion.

Yeah prolly. But, I’d gladly support that xpac without a doubt.

We don’t know how they designed their system.

Somewhat perfect example Major props to the fellow that made this. You good sir are a living hero. But, here is a little twist. Let us save it on our personal PC. Like you can on GW1. None of this build slot(always buying more slots) nonsense.

As for all that. Here is some extra info of the devs showing interest then dropping it. More people that complain the more likely they will pick it up rather then overhaul and existing map….. -_-
Extra info.

18 80s | 12 100% | r177 | wvw r970 | 9,000+ hours
BP → DR → FA → Mag → BP → FA

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Personally I will beat it dead over and over and over again. Then beat it dead even more…I refuse to quit till it gets put into the game.

Not the best strategy if you really want to get it into the game.

I personally have been asking for build templates since the first BETAs. I’m sure ANet’s heard all the arguments. They apparently have good reasons why they haven’t prioritized including them in the game — I get why they didn’t do so at launch; I’m at a loss as to why they aren’t today (since those reasons no longer apply).

So, stick to explaining why the game would be more fun to play, how the community would benefit, and whether you think it would help retain players. Avoid arguing with people who mostly agree agree with you about things that aren’t relevant to the discussion.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Faaris.8013

Faaris.8013

Sure, there are players that do swap stuff around when needed but is that really the case for the majority of players?

This argument is like saying “Should we really put air condition into our store, there are only few people coming in anyway.”

People have to go through a few windows and clicks to change builds, and memorize all traits. If a majority of players did this already, there would be little additional value by adding templates. For me, the value of templates would also lie in people getting used to playing with different builds, because they don’t have to go through the clicking all the time. They would consider it normal that you don’t use the same build for all encounters.

Some people here argue that the encounters are mostly easy enough that it doesn’t matter if you change your build. That’s true, maybe things would need to be adjusted, so a build change would be a visible difference. My Thief really benefits from me changing traits and skills in T4 fractals and events. I’m pretty sure events like Triple Trouble, Octovines, Chak Gerent, Shatterer or Dragon’s Stand would be different if people cared more. It’s not visible, but only a small percentage of the participants care about their personal contribution, and it’s likely that 20% of players do 80% of the damage.

In small groups like in raids or fractals, it’s more visible. A handful of players carry the rest in those Open World events and the carried ones will not even know. The 20% do 3 times the required damage, the other 80% only half of it. And those who don’t care don’t provide heals or boons either.

I would like to see more people caring about their personal contribution in group events. If build swapping became normal, people would contribute more.

Herleve – Ruins of Surmia

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

There may still not be enough players that change builds to make it a high priority to Anet.

Because there isn’t a tool that encourages changing builds!

If you build (template) it, they will come~

So many players have this “meta or gtfo” mentality so they’ll generally play the one build. Sure, there are players that do swap stuff around when needed but is that really the case for the majority of players?

“Many players”? “Majority”? I’m sure ANet could dredge up stats on that. But the two statements are talking from opposite sides of the mouth. Do “most players” play the meta? It’s hard to say, but the pulse on the community says probably not. And even if they do copy something from Metabattle, they’re likely not using it properly unless it’s in the group role and situational context it was created for.
And if you’re a player in a group/situation that does go for the meta, there are different metas for each situation and group composition. As someone specified above: two people bring builds for the same role? One person swaps their build, something made much faster with build templates. It removes the searching and auditing time (and possibly the gear swapping time, if done right) that would hold up a meta-running group.

I’m not against build templates. If you read my post, and the one I was responding to, I was providing them a possible answer.

As far as rhetorical questions go, they could have answers or they could have not. I suggest that you look up rhetorical questions specifically, and how they’re used, instead of just “rhetorical”. Somekbe could tell me that they died trying to solo a legendary and I could respond with a “You think?”. It may be a question but I’m not expecting an actual answer.

rhe·tor·i·cal
adjective
relating to or concerned with the art of rhetoric. [See recursion about persuasion]
(of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.

Reeead. Why do people not read text before answering? (Oops, that must have been a rhetorical question. Except I’d very much like an answer for it. :P)

And it doesn’t really address the statement. It’s supposition, a “maybe of maybes,” that was brought up in absence of deeper context. Did GW1 start with build templates? (I honestly don’t know, never played it.) Of the MMOs I’ve played, I don’t recall any that started with them, except maybe FFXIV, if only because the class change system was that embedded in the experience. So GW2 could be forgiven for not starting with build templates, especially since it redesigned its character system repeatedly.
But that doesn’t change the need/desire for it now.

However, the gain from that is minimal due to the design of GW2 compared to GW1.

Elaborate.

Anyways, arguing back and forth over the meaning isn’t going to contribute anything.

But you will~ <3

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Sister Saxifrage.7361

Sister Saxifrage.7361

Frankly at this late date I would want templates to come with 16-slot gear storage per template. If a piece of gear is stored in a slot linked to a template, it gets equipped with the template. If a template’s gear storage does not include a specific piece of gear, whatever is currently equipped remains equipped.

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

There may still not be enough players that change builds to make it a high priority to Anet.

Because there isn’t a tool that encourages changing builds!

If you build (template) it, they will come~

So many players have this “meta or gtfo” mentality so they’ll generally play the one build. Sure, there are players that do swap stuff around when needed but is that really the case for the majority of players?

“Many players”? “Majority”? I’m sure ANet could dredge up stats on that. But the two statements are talking from opposite sides of the mouth. Do “most players” play the meta? It’s hard to say, but the pulse on the community says probably not. And even if they do copy something from Metabattle, they’re likely not using it properly unless it’s in the group role and situational context it was created for.
And if you’re a player in a group/situation that does go for the meta, there are different metas for each situation and group composition. As someone specified above: two people bring builds for the same role? One person swaps their build, something made much faster with build templates. It removes the searching and auditing time (and possibly the gear swapping time, if done right) that would hold up a meta-running group.

I’m not against build templates. If you read my post, and the one I was responding to, I was providing them a possible answer.

As far as rhetorical questions go, they could have answers or they could have not. I suggest that you look up rhetorical questions specifically, and how they’re used, instead of just “rhetorical”. Somekbe could tell me that they died trying to solo a legendary and I could respond with a “You think?”. It may be a question but I’m not expecting an actual answer.

rhe·tor·i·cal
adjective
relating to or concerned with the art of rhetoric. [See recursion about persuasion]
(of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.

Reeead. Why do people not read text before answering? (Oops, that must have been a rhetorical question. Except I’d very much like an answer for it. :P)

And it doesn’t really address the statement. It’s supposition, a “maybe of maybes,” that was brought up in absence of deeper context. Did GW1 start with build templates? (I honestly don’t know, never played it.) Of the MMOs I’ve played, I don’t recall any that started with them, except maybe FFXIV, if only because the class change system was that embedded in the experience. So GW2 could be forgiven for not starting with build templates, especially since it redesigned its character system repeatedly.
But that doesn’t change the need/desire for it now.

However, the gain from that is minimal due to the design of GW2 compared to GW1.

Elaborate.

Anyways, arguing back and forth over the meaning isn’t going to contribute anything.

But you will~ <3

As I had said, there may not be enough people who would utilize the tool to be worth developing it at that time or even now. It’s similar to arguing for in-game voice chat on the grounds that it facilitates more communication. How many would use it (rhetorical)?

I used ‘many’ as a large number of players seems to use those builds regardless as to whether they’re meant for just fractals/raids in a group setting. Considering the push back I always get when I argue that pretty much all builds are viable, with many fairly close to the meta builds, I’m leaning towards the direction that many go towards the meta as the “only” option.

But yeah, only Anet knows for certain whether players change builds often or not. Considering that the game is this far, and we’ve heard nothing since a couple years ago about build templates, I’d say that it’s not high on their priority list. If it’s not high then the numbers that they have probably suggest it would not be worth perusing at this time.

I skipped over your definition as I assumed you just copy and pasted from your last one. Considering that the last part goes against your argument against me using a rhetorical question, I find that a bit surprising.

Since you said you never played GW1, I can understand you not knowing what I meant about the differences between the two games. GW2 is so much easier than GW1 when it comes to enemy difficulty. You could sometimes get away with a single builds on map in GW1 but often you had to use specific ones depending on the map and what you’re doing. There are builds for solo farming, there are builds for speed run vanquishing, there are builds for certain missions, there are builds for elite maps, and so on. It’s much different than Gw2 where you can generally use a single build for all content.

You’re the one that started arguing over my usage of a rhetorical question.

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

As I had said, there may not be enough people who would utilize the tool to be worth developing it at that time or even now. It’s similar to arguing for in-game voice chat on the grounds that it facilitates more communication. How many would use it (rhetorical)?

Question? Answer! Especially for the lack of equivalence. Voice chat support would require much more server load and maintenance, which is why most MMOs avoid it like the toxic plague it is. Harsh words for a useful tool, right? Because build templates are not a social facilitator, they are a convenience for mid-to-high level play, well within the reach of the playerbase at large.

Considering the push back I always get when I argue that pretty much all builds are viable

Difference in context. When speaking of viable vs optimal, it’s because of player toxicity, a social construct.
And again, a meta build could be stocked in a template, making it much easier to “play the meta.” Granted, the reason people don’t play meta is usually play styles and lack of interest in being told what to do, but making it easier to slip on meta like comfy slippers instead of plate mail armor would do wonders for some.

Considering that the game is this far, and we’ve heard nothing since a couple years ago about build templates, I’d say that it’s not high on their priority list.

Or maybe, as was explained in context earlier, they were too busy redesigning the character/skill systems repeatedly instead of refining them with build templates. It’s a want-to-do, but their focus has been elsewhere. It’s understandable. But now that trait systems are stable (fingers crossed in hope), build templates are a plausible refinement.
Because mounts haven’t been in the game, it must be a low priority, right? Except the rumors are they’re masteries in the upcoming expansion. It’s 100% rumor and speculation, but just because something isn’t in the game yet, doesn’t mean they’re not working on it in some way.

Considering that the last part goes against your argument against me using a rhetorical question, I find that a bit surprising.

But was it really a rhetorical question if I actually wanted an answer?~

Since you said you never played GW1

I mostly wanted to know if GW1 started with templates. Because that gives GW2’s path to templates some parity.

There are builds for solo farming, there are builds for speed run vanquishing, there are builds for certain missions, there are builds for elite maps, and so on.

So.. mostly like GW2, if a bit more stringent. There’s builds for solo farming (swiftness optimization), speed runs (dungeon/fractal/raid metas), builds for specific bosses, etc. And if PvP/WvW gets templates as well, it might be used for countering specific team comps, adding a layer of dynamics to competitive gameplay.

Anyways, arguing back and forth over the meaning isn’t going to contribute anything.

But you will~ <3

You’re the one that started arguing over my usage of a rhetorical question.

And I was right~ <3

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

As I had said, there may not be enough people who would utilize the tool to be worth developing it at that time or even now. It’s similar to arguing for in-game voice chat on the grounds that it facilitates more communication. How many would use it (rhetorical)?

Question? Answer! Especially for the lack of equivalence. Voice chat support would require much more server load and maintenance, which is why most MMOs avoid it like the toxic plague it is. Harsh words for a useful tool, right? Because build templates are not a social facilitator, they are a convenience for mid-to-high level play, well within the reach of the playerbase at large.

Considering the push back I always get when I argue that pretty much all builds are viable

Difference in context. When speaking of viable vs optimal, it’s because of player toxicity, a social construct.
And again, a meta build could be stocked in a template, making it much easier to “play the meta.” Granted, the reason people don’t play meta is usually play styles and lack of interest in being told what to do, but making it easier to slip on meta like comfy slippers instead of plate mail armor would do wonders for some.

Considering that the game is this far, and we’ve heard nothing since a couple years ago about build templates, I’d say that it’s not high on their priority list.

Or maybe, as was explained in context earlier, they were too busy redesigning the character/skill systems repeatedly instead of refining them with build templates. It’s a want-to-do, but their focus has been elsewhere. It’s understandable. But now that trait systems are stable (fingers crossed in hope), build templates are a plausible refinement.
Because mounts haven’t been in the game, it must be a low priority, right? Except the rumors are they’re masteries in the upcoming expansion. It’s 100% rumor and speculation, but just because something isn’t in the game yet, doesn’t mean they’re not working on it in some way.

Considering that the last part goes against your argument against me using a rhetorical question, I find that a bit surprising.

But was it really a rhetorical question if I actually wanted an answer?~

Since you said you never played GW1

I mostly wanted to know if GW1 started with templates. Because that gives GW2’s path to templates some parity.

There are builds for solo farming, there are builds for speed run vanquishing, there are builds for certain missions, there are builds for elite maps, and so on.

So.. mostly like GW2, if a bit more stringent. There’s builds for solo farming (swiftness optimization), speed runs (dungeon/fractal/raid metas), builds for specific bosses, etc. And if PvP/WvW gets templates as well, it might be used for countering specific team comps, adding a layer of dynamics to competitive gameplay.

Anyways, arguing back and forth over the meaning isn’t going to contribute anything.

But you will~ <3

You’re the one that started arguing over my usage of a rhetorical question.

And I was right~ <3

I said similar, not exactly. Of course there will be differences. The point is that people can argue for anything on the grounds of something while it may not be writhing doing at that time.

It’s been years since the redesign and no word as to whether they plan to work on build templates. As far as we know, there are no plans to.

I was referring to my rhetorical question, not yours.

I vaguely remember it starting with templates but then the game was simpler when it came to stats and such. What we have now was likely a design choice and implementing build templates may not be as easy as it would seem. Just like a race change sounds like it would be easy except we’ve heard from Anet that it’s not.

The GW2 builds that people make are minor compared to those in GW1. Quite often it was a complete overhaul rather than a difference in a few things.

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

I vaguely remember it starting with templates but then the game was simpler when it came to stats and such. What we have now was likely a design choice and implementing build templates may not be as easy as it would seem. Just like a race change sounds like it would be easy except we’ve heard from Anet that it’s not.

I recall it being on their “do want” list.
I have no illusions that it’s “easy”. And there are a ton of considerations with it, if it’s going to be done right.

How much memory/performance will it take? When should swaps be allowed? How long should it take? What about gear? Where do we store the gear? In the template? On the character? If on the character, how are exceptions and null pointers handled?

…Yeah, it’s a huge deal. So I don’t blame ANet for taking their time to find the right approach.

But if we get mounts (half the community seems “do not want”) before build templates (healthy support with little opposition), I’m gonna laaaugh.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

I believe (Build) Templates were added to Guild Wars in February, 2007 (a couple of years after launch).

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Yakez.7561

Yakez.7561

Yes build templates were added to GW1 somewhere around Nightfall hero system. And it was quite handful because remembering several builds for roster of 20 heroes is impossible task.

And remembering several crazy builds from GW1 like fast cast healing mesmer/ritualist, dervish healer, 55 hp monk (great exploitation of ingame design with -75 hp runes), touch ranger (fully utilizing necro skills paired with ranger trait), tamer rangers (hammer hybrid with a warrior), warriors with daggers (new expansion lol). There was quite a lot to switch outside Heroes.

Does GW2 have this diversity? Yes and no. HoT gave us 9 new specs. New expansion would give as new 9. But HoT made obvious power creep rendering old builds absolute. Would new expansion power creep? If yes build templates is waste of time to please players that do care. If not, builds would be one of marketing tools 100%.

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Yakez.7561

Yakez.7561

How much memory/performance will it take? When should swaps be allowed? How long should it take? What about gear? Where do we store the gear? In the template? On the character? If on the character, how are exceptions and null pointers handled?

But if we get mounts (half the community seems “do not want”) before build templates (healthy support with little opposition), I’m gonna laaaugh.

If done right it could be one of main selling points for the new expansion without freaking power creep. Just sell new toys to play, and promote specialization diversity of the game.

Let us count:
Full reroll take up to 6 armor pieces, 6 trinkets and up to 4 weapons (16 slots per build)
Partial reroll 6 trinkets/armor, up to 4 weapons (10 slots per build)

Lets add gear slots with following mech: when corresponding build activated corresponding weapons and armor remain there, but they are equipped.

Lock this behind expansion purchase, because we do not get new char slot anyway, but having bonus storage for at least for 2 builds would be neat:
32 gear slots – you put your current armor, trinkets, weapons there. Bare minimum for 2 complete builds. But this is 16 bonus storage units, everybody happy. (because equipped gear right now is kind of storage anyway)

Locked behind gem store purchase (for “minority” playerbase who wants QoL and switch builds even more):
10 additional gear slots – 800 gems
16 additional gear slots – 1200 gems

Number of builds – unlimited.
Gear slots are account wide but not shared.
They could do double priced shared gear slots in the future to cash in.
Add bonus 16 gear slots to a deluxe edition (to cover 3 builds out of the box, yay).
People without expansion would get only trait line and skill build templates. (change your armor manually, no additional storage for gear)

Ah, frak I forgot about underwater gear… So 38 default gear slots? 40? yeah this is quite complex…

(edited by Yakez.7561)

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Yakez.7561

Yakez.7561

So on another thought with gear slots going out trough the roof and becoming to messy…

Just implement double/tripple/quadriple slots for each armor/weapon/trinket slot under equipment tab. When corresponding build activated corresponding weapons and armor selected.

Create expansion mastery of “phase shifting” that would give you double slots and the ability to create two separate gear builds.
Add 800 gems item that add you another “phase shifting” layer into equipment tab.
Add expensive gem store item that add you shared “phase shifting” layer into equipment tab.

More neat. Could be done on char level (like bag slots in the inventory), or account wide (like shared slots).

(edited by Yakez.7561)

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: DirtyDan.4759

DirtyDan.4759

Templates for traits and the 5 utility skills is all I need. GW1 Templets didnt include armor and weapon and I never heard someone complaining. No idea why anet trys to make it so difficult.

(edited by DirtyDan.4759)

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: perilisk.1874

perilisk.1874

Adding build templates as a Mastery (maybe putting armor/trinket swaps as a separate tier from trait/skill swaps) in the next expansion would certainly be an added inducement to make the plunge. Hint, hint, anet.

Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Mithos.9023

Mithos.9023

Still, the number one feature I would like to see in the game.

But I really hope they include weapons and armor in a feature like this. Changing utility and traits is in my opinion less of a hazel than changing your gear. And gear is rather important, your build stands and falls with proper equip.

And if I remember correct didn’t gw1 have equipment as part of the build templates on pvp characters? Shows again how important it can be. I rather have a finished system that gives me a solution for everything than an unpolished product leaving 50% out.

We need build and gear-templates!!!!!!!!!!

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Yakez.7561

Yakez.7561

And if I remember correct didn’t gw1 have equipment as part of the build templates on pvp characters?

Weapon sets were quite universal among all classes for PvP and had little common with actual builds, as I remember.
Usually you had set for casters (E, Mo, Me, N, Rt) consisting from:
- defensive set with spear or sword (with +20% longer enchantments for better heals) / shield (without shield mastery only half of 16 armor, but still 8 additional armor for 60 armor class)
- high set (usually staff or scepter focus) with something like +20 energy – 2 energy regen for extreme situations when you need to cast with 0 energy
- normal offensive set with faster cast (or recharge I do not remember) in build specific mastery

Situation with melee and ranged classes (W, D, A, R and P) was quite similar, and sometimes even more simple with 2 weapon sets ever needed.

Weapons were more utility thing rather then part of the build.

(edited by Yakez.7561)

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: AtlasSi.9130

AtlasSi.9130

Yes build templates were added to GW1 somewhere around Nightfall hero system.

GW1 release April 26, 2005. Templates were introduced on October 25, 2006. GW2 is now going to be ending its 4th and starting its 5th year running…kinda makes you wonder. Not to exclude you…just to get it out there.
Source

Locked behind gem store purchase (for “minority” playerbase who wants QoL and switch builds even more):
10 additional gear slots – 800 gems
16 additional gear slots – 1200 gems

No just no no no. Don’t even bring up paying for slots. As GW1 it should be saved on your PC. In return keeps GW2 servers free of the extra clutter. They are already bad enough sometimes. Don’t need to add more lol.

18 80s | 12 100% | r177 | wvw r970 | 9,000+ hours
BP → DR → FA → Mag → BP → FA

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

Yes build templates were added to GW1 somewhere around Nightfall hero system.

GW1 release April 26, 2005. Templates were introduced on October 25, 2006. GW2 is now going to be ending its 4th and starting its 5th year running…kinda makes you wonder. Not to exclude you…just to get it out there.
Source

Locked behind gem store purchase (for “minority” playerbase who wants QoL and switch builds even more):
10 additional gear slots – 800 gems
16 additional gear slots – 1200 gems

No just no no no. Don’t even bring up paying for slots. As GW1 it should be saved on your PC. In return keeps GW2 servers free of the extra clutter. They are already bad enough sometimes. Don’t need to add more lol.

Of course, that was PvP-only, and Equipment-only. It was some time before Build Templates were added to the PvE side of the game (another year or so).

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Sister Saxifrage.7361

Sister Saxifrage.7361

Templates for traits and the 5 utility skills is all I need. GW1 Templets didnt include armor and weapon and I never heard someone complaining. No idea why anet trys to make it so difficult.

GW1 had fewer armor slots, no trinkets, no backpack, no UW headgear or weapons.

Honestly dragging and dropping the second earring and ring is sort of the final straw for me, as you can double-click everything else. But the bulk of my complaint is the 16 pieces of gear I have to waste precious storage on, whether in bank or on character.

Build Templates Like in the Original GW

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Posted by: Yakez.7561

Yakez.7561

No just no no no. Don’t even bring up paying for slots. As GW1 it should be saved on your PC. In return keeps GW2 servers free of the extra clutter. They are already bad enough sometimes. Don’t need to add more lol.

In system like gear slots it is free inventory slots. Right now 20 inventory slots cost 400 gems + 7 gold and some badges of honor.
Builds (template switcher) yes should be free.

And as I remember they had inventory tab for gear in GW1. It was free… Ah good old days.

(edited by Yakez.7561)