Guild Wars 2

The Great Al.2546:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

In all seriousness:

Starting on a basic level:
Daily achievement always in cycle like Gatherer; “Daily Visitor: Visit 5 houses”.
Social achievment “Houseguest: Visit W/X/Y/Z Houses; Title: Couch Surfer / Neighborhood / Honored Guest / Toast of the Town”

Personally not feeling any of these. I already am under the strong impression that probably 90% of players will spend less than 1% of their time in these ‘houses’. Forcing it with a daily or achievements isn’t going to make it a more attractive option.

I wouldn’t call it forcing (a few achievement hunters may complains that’s all), I’d like them like that I only ever want to do my 5 and then move on to my days goals, so easy ones like that are always good for me.
(My favorites are daily laural vendor, Leveler, gatherer) (My least favorite is oddly ambient killer, it’s actually more of a pain than you’d think.)

I also think that people will surprise you. Giving players housing gives them a massive tool for creativity and social events, I would not be surprised that like the daily mining run and world tour that social parties become a social staple.
I’m not an Rp’er and usually don’t bother interacting with people outside my guild and current party but when I first got housing in Runescape I was throwing get together s, it was fun. There’s an element of showing off what you created and there’s the element that the space was designed with things like this in mind, we sat in the virtual chairs and had the virtual food.
The housing in this game had minigames too so the people naturally gravitated to them and started playing, having friendly competitions making wagers.

(This is actually where size comes in as a factor, my house had 3 stories and about 18 rooms and a garden, it was big enough that it could hold the people, I’m not talking about single room houses that I’ve seen implemented in other games)

Hopefully it’s to late post more about subclasses.

Seems like the right thing to do is to tie them in with the orders like someone said earlier. Maybe they give you two options. For example my thief is in the priory and maybe they have subclasses called scholar and explorer. I would talk to a quest giver maybe duel the the classes to see what they are about and decide what path I want to take. A quest giver would give me a thing/have me build a thing/tell me to find a thing and take it to a spot in the open world (maybe your character is the thing and you have to do something at the right place). Anyway when the right thing gets fitted to the right place a dynamic event starts and if you are successful you earn you your subclass (if you fail you have to get another thing or repair it perhaps).

The subclass would come with utility skills that can be purchased with skill points but it also comes with a new trait bar. To unlock those tiers you need to continue to work for your order using the questing method described above.

Another thing I would like to see is access to new weapon skills. A subclass will either give you more skills for a weapon that you already know or access to a completely new weapon. It really gets tricky here since subclasses aren’t based on your primary class (in this concept). I would recommend that subclasses only deal with melee weapons or horns because a caster can use a melee weapon but there are no instances so far where marshall characters use magic things. Anyway in the case of access to a new weapon it works just like learning standard weapon you equip and learn. In the case of new skills for a known weapon you would have to select the new skill (like selecting utility skills) and learn.

Unfortunately I think horizontal progression is gated behind “time played” instead of “player skill”. Look at all the high-end rewards in this game, you can obtain all of them through grind.

I want more of “The Deep” from GW1, and less of Champ farm trains.

To be clear — I don’t want more Tequatl. I want smaller scale, instanced, difficult content requiring coordinated team play.

A comparison from the current market: any of the LotRO raids (4 teams of 6) in Orthanc. Those were hard requiring many attempts to master.

EDIT: These challenges would have their own rewards (similar to The Deep from GW1). Those rewards would not be available through any other game channel. Sounds like GW1 in a way?

juno.1840:

Unfortunately I think horizontal progression is gated behind “time played” instead of “player skill”. Look at all the high-end rewards in this game, you can obtain all of them through grind.

I want more of “The Deep” from GW1, and less of Champ farm trains.

To be clear — I don’t want more Tequatl. I want smaller scale, instanced, difficult content requiring coordinated team play.

A comparison from the current market: any of the LotRO raids (4 teams of 6) in Orthanc. Those were hard requiring many attempts to master.

EDIT: These challenges would have their own rewards (similar to The Deep from GW1). Those rewards would not be available through any other game channel. Sounds like GW1 in a way?

In a way, yes, except stuff out of The Deep could be sold to people who either could not partake of it or weren’t lucky enough to get what they wanted.

And I’ll point out – Those who play more will usually have more resources than those who don’t play as much. That’s generally how things short of lotteries work, you put more time into it, you get more out of it.

Conski Deshan.2057:

How do we visually differentiate these 3 players? In such a manner that player 3 Cannot look like player 1 and cannot buy his way to it. Player 2 being the average can have some of the pieces player 1 has but would be incapable of getting them all.

I actually do not think that we should be able to permanently differentiate these players. To create a challenge that an average player cannot ever complete, but the best of the best can, would require parsing such a fine line that it would be nearly impossible. Moreover, it would alienate most of your playerbase who are being told they aren’t good enough for X, no matter how much time they sink into it.

The far better way to tier skill is to make things difficult, but provide a mechanism for worse players to catch up. For example the agony system and escalating difficulty of the Fractals: an expert player who understands all the mechanics and avoids most damage can get by with less AR and less gear than a lower-skilled player, which will allow him/her to reach Fractal 50 far faster than a lower skilled player. The lower-skilled player will still be able to get to level 50 in fractals, but only after much more effort/AR is acquired.

Jason

juno.1840:

To be clear — I don’t want more Tequatl. I want smaller scale, instanced, difficult content requiring coordinated team play.

A comparison from the current market: any of the LotRO raids (4 teams of 6) in Orthanc. Those were hard requiring many attempts to master.

I want them to go away from instanced content. BUT I also want something similar as you: content for small groups.

This doesn’t have to contradict each other imho. Sure, if you put a huge timer on a homepage, people would swarm such szenarios. If these are found via exploration though, and they are random events in the world, I think people would be excited. I feel that we need such events as rewards for exploration.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

juno.1840:

To be clear — I don’t want more Tequatl. I want smaller scale, instanced, difficult content requiring coordinated team play.

A comparison from the current market: any of the LotRO raids (4 teams of 6) in Orthanc. Those were hard requiring many attempts to master.

I want them to go away from instanced content. BUT I also want something similar as you: content for small groups.

This doesn’t have to contradict each other imho. Sure, if you put a huge timer on a homepage, people would swarm such szenarios. If these are found via exploration though, and they are random events in the world, I think people would be excited. I feel that we need such events as rewards for exploration.

A problem here is that the event is not on your time schedule but the server’s. In addition you create a scenario where you compete with other players. Look at any of the events that get zerg’d now… you are competing for (1) tags, (2) server space — i.e. overflow.

Dungeons can fill the role I describe (instance, high quality, challenging content for small teams) — i.e The Deep.

I saw the post about selling your gains from those challenging instances (also like The Deep). As you earned the reward so you should be able to profit from it. That’s also a motivator for some players to keep running the difficult content. Yeah players with coin can simply buy it off of the TP but maybe that’s ok (they can do it already with legendaries).

Let’s also not forget that there are many tiers of difficulty. There’s a middleground between mind-numbing, auto-attack spamming difficulty (champ trains) and so-kittenly-very-few-players-have-the-will-and-skill-to-do-it.

Although GW2 should definitely have a few really hard content for those who enjoy it, I feel it is also lacking at that middleground difficulty, either because zones do not have more dangerous areas or patrols (OPEN WORLD), event or champion scaling is still not good enough (SCALING) or because the encounter design for mobs and for dungeons is generally not effective enough (ENCOUNTER DESIGN).

GW2 should have a lot more reasonably difficult moments, scattered across the whole game. I mean by reasonably difficult content, not what guild missions content offer (which is usually trivialized by the downed state rezzing and WP teleporting, and otherwise a bit too ridiculous), but by anything content where players will fail generally until they analyze the encounter design, adapt their builds, adapt their playstyle, and eventually overcome it.

Basically, I’m talking about content that doesn’t even needs to be very hard for the experienced and for the prepared, content that even the weaker players can overcome it with some time and dedication (getting the right gear, thinking about the best traits and utilities to pick, practicing a few mechanics a little bit), but will surely overwhelm them and make them fail the first few times.

I feel that the new TA dungeon path revamp is a good example of that. It can be crazy for the first timers, but once you learn your lessons and improve, it becomes much easier.

And the reason why GW2 needs this kind of content scattered all over the player is also for player’s education. It needs to educate players and give them some experience with harder content through normal playthroughs. Currently, GW2 is only midly challenging at the beginning of the game, when you’re still learning the new mechanics, and at some optional endgame spots or some personal story instances. It’s normal to see level 80 players farming champions or CoF path 1 and getting richer, while only having a very basic understanding of the game’s mechanics.

If this difficulty middle ground does not exists, the game will either: a) be too difficult that only a few can beat ir, or b) so easy that it’ll promote lazyness.

If suddenly this middle ground level of difficuly was added to several areas across the game, would it shock the playerbase? A bit, yes. Would it make them cry and whine? Certainly, too. But, would it gate the content of their individual skill? No, it wouldn’t, because this level of middle ground difficulty should be beatable by anyone, in due time and preparation. The reason why the playerbase would get a bit shocked by it, is because they are not used to deal with it. They are not used to think a bit deeper about the builds they use, about the mechanics they play with, because the base difficulty level is too low of that. It’s as if – and I don’t want to offend anyone with this – as if the playerbase is a bit spoiled by the low difficulty, to the point that any semblance of higher difficulty gives to them the illusion of “being impossible”, even if ultimately still remains very accessible.

It would be interesting to see zones getting progressively harder the higher their levels, but for most of them, that is not noticeable. More enemy patrols, sections of varying difficulty within each zone, stronger veterans, and of course, more sophisticated enemy’s combat design. It would be a good way to educate newer players, because each new zone would be like each new step towards something harder, giving to players plenting of time to improve before going into an even harder zone.

juno.1840:

I saw the post about selling your gains from those challenging instances (also like The Deep). As you earned the reward so you should be able to profit from it. That’s also a motivator for some players to keep running the difficult content. Yeah players with coin can simply buy it off of the TP but maybe that’s ok (they can do it already with legendaries).

This is purely a personal viewpoint but the buying of stuff in this game just annoys me more than in other games (I played Gw1 for years and did’nt have a problem, although Obsidian was to me partially skill gated and I used that which probobly accounts for it)

I think it’s the ease of getting stuff? , Like in Gw1 if you wanted to get an item in Gw1 (lets say a Torment staff) you had to go to Kamaden 1, then shout for hours till someone had the item you wanted pm’d you , then you had to negotiate the price down as much as you could. I also feel gold may have been easy to acquire with active gameplay but harder to get with flipping ( I remember getting 4 minis for a very good price and then having to spend several hours trading to sell them)

Weapons were not skill gated but armors most certainly were , lets not forget that completing the story for each campaign , while a very easy gate is still a gate.

I also feel there should be a gold reward in addition to the challenges unique reward, personally when I’m working towards something it is an objective not a reward, the additional items I get along the way are the rewards, so only having the one item kills that a bit. (i.e Dungeon tokens are not the reward they are the expected return for this activity, getting an exotic drop during the dungeon is a reward)

Third and final personal feeling, I don’t like things being buyable I am a big fan of earning your rewards, I like seeing mine and other characters grow as they have actively played new parts and content, not sitting in LA with 8k gold deciding which of all the games rewards you will have next.

I like being able to work on several goals at once as well, which I run into problems with because everything requires gold or is awarded by gold.
I am not asking for these to be an obtainable through other means, I am asking that future items only obtainable through single means are given by methods that non-RNG’ly reward completion of skilled content
i.e my current objectives that require gold are,
Complete my Ascened set <- unrealistic to obtain all mats yourself requires gold
Get the Dwyna backpiece <- Icy loadstones are literally just a step that requires 50g
Buy the legend precursor <- 700g~ Not exactly a legendary journey for a legendary item.
Fully upgrade my fractal capacitor <- 500 ectos to go (I have all the Fractal based mats) that is just a money gate again.

I have 200g to my name at the moment and that is all for the legend, that means the other 3 goals are completely on hold.

Non Personal
A range of skill levels will always exist and challenges should be designed for each of them with separate rewards for each challenge, and for each area of the game. (My long winded Olympics example was meant to convey this but I don’t think it did).

Idea
In theory you could have a challenge that you consider to be ruffly the same difficulty for each area and have it award a different colour of the same skin based on the area the challenge is from, say blue from jumping, red from solo combat, green from Wvw, Yellow from Pvp, Purple from Dungeons, Orange from fractals. You could even put a special “prismatic” version of the skin in that a person can unlock if they accomplish this tier of challenge in every area.

Upside: you save resources as it’s now 1 skin for 6-7 challenges, players are rewarded regularly, if a misjudgement occurs and one particular challenge from the tier is made drastically easier then the others: the players self regulate the prestige as they are aware of which colour was the “easy” one while maintaining the prestige of other colours of the skin.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

I got back into the office this week and have been SUPER busy. So i sincerely apologies for not contributing over the past few days. I need to catch up from page 44 )-:

I intend to put a proposal together on behalf of us all this weekend. Feel free to carry on chatting and brainstorming in the interim. I am looking forward to getting back into thread and seeing it come to its conclusion.

Chris

Hi Chris,
think it’s indeed the right time for your proposal. It’s hard for new people to join this thread, because they won’t read everything and don’t know what has been discussed so far. Yep, there are some players making big efforts (thanks for that!) to summarize everything, but still…
A proposal could create a “new” start of a concentrated discussion, where everyone new could start to participate.
Perhaps even a new thread would help to integrate new players?

And thanks for the CDI and your “heroic” engagement for this one =)

zamalek.2154:

Keep in mind GW2 was designed to be social. You may not get too much traction with ideas that exclude social interactions. In my opinion: at same time a lot of PUGs behave in an antisocial manner; so a small amount of soloable and challenging content might be nice for when you want to take a break from them.

Right, which is why my ideas involve the open world instead of solo instances. It’s not that I want to get other players off my chat and screen entirely. I just I want to sort of “plug and play” and hop right into the action without all of the burden of grouping on my shoulders.

Hey Chris, welcome back!

Although it’s not relevant to the progression system being discussed, have you seen the “Let the night be nighttime” thread yet? I added a thought in there as to how we could use making the dark darker to enhance the overall game play. It may be worth your read.

Thanks!

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

juno.1840:

To be clear — I don’t want more Tequatl. I want smaller scale, instanced, difficult content requiring coordinated team play.

I want them to go away from instanced content. BUT I also want something similar as you: content for small groups.

This doesn’t have to contradict each other imho. Sure, if you put a huge timer on a homepage, people would swarm such szenarios. If these are found via exploration though, and they are random events in the world, I think people would be excited. I feel that we need such events as rewards for exploration.

Challenging content is crucial to keep people feeling the desire to progress either their skill, gear, or strategy. However, due to logistical reasons, most of it should be instanced. Here is why:

Challenging open-world content is either zerged or ignored by most players
The reason is because if content can be zerged to get the cool rewards for it, it will be because players naturally go towards the path of least resistance (see Shatterer, Jormag, champ trains). If a mechanic is introduced that prevents zerging (Tequatl) but still requires a large group, then only a large organized guild (who has enough members to care) can tackle the content and so most people just miss it since they aren’t part of such a guild. There is currently no in-game mechanism for PUGS to tackle large scale challenging content, and even if there were (see the Expeditions idea mentioned previously, an NPC in town to collects players to portal them) it would be nearly impossible to balance the idea of actual “challenge” with the concept of 50 strangers wandering up to a boss with no raid system or way to coordinate.

Challenging instanced content can be widely accessible and very deep
The reason is because LFG allows you to get five people together easily, and that is a small enough number to work with to strategize and defeat content. It is also a small enough number that large guilds can easily fill such groups whenever the players really feel like going.

Instanced content allows the devs to reutilize the same art/design assets and scale difficulty by adding mechanics, buffing enemies, etc. That dramatically increases replayability, and gives players something to strive for.

That’s why I’m a huge fan of Masters (hard mode, or escalating difficulty) dungeons, because I think the fractal system has been such a success, and there is a TON of content to be explored in the existing dungeons, and most of it is going to waste.

my opinion about horizontal progression is that is hardly compatible with THIS vertical one, as the second requires so much time-money-realmoney-gems.

i’d like ANY horizontal progression, as i didn’t see a concrete one in the last months.
just grindy living story and grindy events and grindy ascended and…grind.

Chuggs.1682:

There is currently no in-game mechanism for PUGS to tackle large scale challenging content, and even if there were (see the Expeditions idea mentioned previously, an NPC in town to collects players to portal them) it would be nearly impossible to balance the idea of actual “challenge” with the concept of 50 strangers wandering up to a boss with no raid system or way to coordinate.

Expeditions were my idea, so I want to clarify this:

Expeditions are quite the contrary of what you think they are. It’s not like you wait with tons of people so that a portal spawns which takes you to the event-chains.

• such portals spawn every 3-5 minutes
• they lead to random event-chains (Meta-Events might be involved, but tons of other event-chains too
• after 3-5 minutes the portal despawns, with it the npc and a new npc arrives at the same time who opens another new portal. This goes on constantly.

So it’s likely to find only a handful of people participating in “your” event, since it’s logistically quite difficult to get too many people at the same time to the same place. Yes, there might be organized zergs, but if you don’t like that, just wait 3-5 minutes for the next portal.

Another possibility: the npc “counts” the players around and creates a portal depending on the number of players. If 40+ are in that area, events for smaller groups won’t appear.

also why I’m against instanced content: I don’t like grouping and I don’t like dungeons. Sure, you could create an instance with Tequatl inside, but this would only lead to elitism imho.

“Ok, no Rangers, we only take warriors and guardians – about 30+ and 5-10 Mesmers. Warrior with dual swords? No, go away! Oh, a newbie, go away!”

I’ve seen commanders in WvW who want people/professions to play with one specific weaponset. I hate that mentality! At least they can’t kick me. If I wanna play a sword+shield guardian no one should have the right to drop me because of this. No one.

Open world is the ultimate freedom, the no.1 reason I love GW2.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

also why I’m against instanced content: I don’t like grouping and I don’t like dungeons. Sure, you could create an instance with Tequatl inside, but this would only lead to elitism imho.

“Ok, no Rangers, we only take warriors and guardians – about 30+ and 5-10 Mesmers. Warrior with dual swords? No, go away! Oh, a newbie, go away!”

I’ve seen commanders in WvW who want people/professions to play with one specific weaponset. I hate that mentality! At least they can’t kick me. If I wanna play a sword+shield guardian no one should have the right to drop me because of this. No one.

Open world is the ultimate freedom, the no.1 reason I love GW2.

But what would be your issue if such instanced Content is created for People that want it if for example the shatterer and all world bosses are instanced as well as open world it woulnd’t harm you and it would be able for People to get hardmode on those bosses same with dungeons. The Point is if you have to kill shatterer or tentaql instanced with loads of debuffs gambits whatever you Need certain tactics to succed. In open world as you said People like you don’t wanna Play a certain class and mess up the Strategie of others soo instanced is always nice to push boarders let People figure things out without waiting 2 hours for a Boss to spam just that People mess up with going on Canon and Shooting somwhere in the sky…

Chris Whiteside.6102:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey Chris, welcome back!

Although it’s not relevant to the progression system being discussed, have you seen the “Let the night be nighttime” thread yet? I added a thought in there as to how we could use making the dark darker to enhance the overall game play. It may be worth your read.

Thanks!

I saw it last night while I was reading the forums in bed but that was the one topic I didn’t read, sorry.

I will read it tonight but based on what you just said I am very intrigued and can imagine what the content will be (-:

Chris

If the nights in GW2 were occasionaly much darker (like the forest in the ice fractals), and if enemy patrol routes were more prelevant in the open-world, wouldn’t that lead to a very dangerously exciting open world experience? :P Very immersive too.

I’m late to the party, since I took more time off for New Year’s than Chris.

My one horizontal paradigm:
Build flexibility. I want to feel like as I play my character more, I become more and more flexible in the types of content that I am prepared for.

Right now, content that requires a very specific build is a pain in the kitten, because after I go to the trouble of getting that specific gear, there’s a big cost (inventory space) to keeping it around.

I bought some Ravager’s gear early on, before I knew better. That could have felt like progression (“now, I’ll always have some Ravager’s, in case that stat set becomes useful”) but instead I had to salvage it to make room for gear sets I actually needed. Similarly, I bought some Mad King runes for a cool condition duration build, but now the gear they’re on is taking up space in my bank because they’re two expensive to overwrite.

So, I’d much prefer a stat wardrobe to a skin wardrobe

If nights in GW2 become so impressive and immersive, liek in the PS3 game Dragons Dogma, then has Anet done a great job.

Never seen before a good RPG with darker and immersive nights, than in this game.

Gingelyr.3648:

My one horizontal paradigm:
Build flexibility. I want to feel like as I play my character more, I become more and more flexible in the types of content that I am prepared for.

It does suck that we’re forced to use the weapons that work rather than the weapons we want to use. Take warrior hammers, for example. They’re clearly designed for PvP. No warrior in their right mind would bring a hammer to a dungeon/fractal over a great sword. But if you like the play style or love the look, or if you’ve invested a ton time and gold into crafting say Juggernaut, then you’re forced to choose between shelving your first choice for optimization or running what you want to run at the expense of yourself and your party.

Orpheal.8263:

If nights in GW2 become so impressive and immersive, liek in the PS3 game Dragons Dogma, then has Anet done a great job.

Never seen before a good RPG with darker and immersive nights, than in this game.

Ultima Online had some really dark nights, and night missions in UFO: Enemy Unknown (also know as X-Com ‘the first’) were considerably dangerous. Those are two which come to mind right off the top of my head. But immersive? “Strahd’s Possession” from SSI; that game had an incredible amount of work put into some immersive effects for the time. Dark nights were not one of them, though its sequel had a crazy effect of nights reducing sight distance to roughly 10 feet ahead unless you were near a light source.

Please note, while this was all very nice? It made gameplay frustrating and I know I personally tried to avoid doing things at night because it was hard to see what I was doing, or dangerous due to not being likely to see dangers until they ran up on you. There is a point where you sacrifice immersion for “do I want players to play during half the day/night cycle, or feel like they’re wasting their time waiting for the sun to come up so they can see what they’re doing?”.

(You know, like early-game Hardcore Minecraft, where you bunker down and just hope you don’t starve on your first night.)

Though I will say, if it gives reasons for things such as torches or light sources to have value to players and see more use than for combat purposes? It’d be refreshing. Just . . . sacrificing playability for immersion seems like a losing trade in my opinion.

Basically it comes down to this:

GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

WoW kept players playing by power creep. It takes a lot of time and effort to max equip just one character. And so everyone have to focus on one character, that’s it. The newbie zones are emptied out very quickly, because veteran players do not have time to play an alt. Since most players only ever play though 1 class, they often have great misunderstandings on other classes.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

CHIPS.6018:

Basically it comes down to this:

GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

WoW kept players playing by power creep. It takes a lot of time and effort to max equip just one character. And so everyone have to focus on one character, that’s it. The newbie zones are emptied out very quickly, because veteran players do not have time to play an alt. Since most players only ever play though 1 class, they often have great misunderstandings on other classes.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

You’re missing a huge aspect of what kept people playing Guild Wars: the expansions. Every year we got what was essentially a whole new game; complete with a new story, new classes, new areas to explore, new skills, and new features. Don’t underestimate the amount of longevity the expansions added, or the interest they generated among non/potential players.

I also think there aren’t enough AoE weapons in this game. This really narrow the player’s weapon choices in WvW, where AoE is the only way to go in a zerg fight.

Take necro for example. Only its staff and scepter does AoE damage. Of the two, the staff is much superior than the scepter. So the necro players literally only have the staff to use for WvW zerg fights.

darkace.8925:

CHIPS.6018:

Basically it comes down to this:

GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

WoW kept players playing by power creep. It takes a lot of time and effort to max equip just one character. And so everyone have to focus on one character, that’s it. The newbie zones are emptied out very quickly, because veteran players do not have time to play an alt. Since most players only ever play though 1 class, they often have great misunderstandings on other classes.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

You’re missing a huge aspect of what kept people playing Guild Wars: the expansions. Every year we got what was essentially a whole new game; complete with a new story, new classes, new areas to explore, new skills, and new features. Don’t underestimate the amount of longevity the expansions added, or the interest they generated among non/potential players.

I don’t know about you, but I personally had 10 characters in GW1. So for me, the ease of leveling and max equipping an alt-character is one of the major reasons for me to kept playing GW1 for 7 years. I finished all 4 campaigns for so many times I don’t remember.

CHIPS.6018:

Basically it comes down to this:
GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

The outposts were not always full, by the way. More than a few were practically deserted except for people doing cartography or other work. Especially true in Prophecies, where there were a fair amount of outposts in the middle of nowhere.

Now, Kamadan had a lot of people in it all the time as it was one of the “main hubs” of the campaign. It also allowed people to get maximum gear with a simple “can someone ferry me to Consulate Docks” request, was the location for both Mad King and Dwayna/Grenth events on those times of the year so it was trivial to park your alts there. Add in the area right outside not being too bad for hard mode “messing around” . . .

Shing Jea likewise was big because people would park alts there for Nine Rings and such. In contrast, I don’t recall all that many people hanging around Ascalon City or places around there. There just wasn’t anything of value to keep them there.

Now having said all that, there was a booster shot of veteran players using the same outposts as new folk to run vanquishes from or finish that last 0.1% of Cartography. Or later on going for specific Zaishen challenges on multiple characters. With the zones being instanced to a party, it was really hard to tell how busy a given location was outside of just looking at traffic in the relevant outposts.

It also kept players because unlike WoW where new content would be layered on top of the ladder rather than slipped in as War in Kryta was . . . GW1 you could walk away for six months and pick up almost exactly where you left off and be no weaker for the experience.

I hesitate, but I’ll say it. If you left GW2 six months ago over Scarlet or whatever, you’re not significantly behind anyone else playing currently. Except in achievement points and potential possible gold gain over time.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

I don’t see it. And I really hope I won’t see it in the next six months.

darkace.8925:

CHIPS.6018:

Basically it comes down to this:

GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

WoW kept players playing by power creep. It takes a lot of time and effort to max equip just one character. And so everyone have to focus on one character, that’s it. The newbie zones are emptied out very quickly, because veteran players do not have time to play an alt. Since most players only ever play though 1 class, they often have great misunderstandings on other classes.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

You’re missing a huge aspect of what kept people playing Guild Wars: the expansions. Every year we got what was essentially a whole new game; complete with a new story, new classes, new areas to explore, new skills, and new features. Don’t underestimate the amount of longevity the expansions added, or the interest they generated among non/potential players.

What kept them playing after Eye of the North and the smaller content releases of War in Kryta and Winds of Change? Aside from “filling the Hall because I got nothing else to be doing”?

(It’s what kept me playing, truthfully. Crunching titles and going “if I really try I might be able to hit God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals” before after two hours of Vanquishing going “this is the second most mind numbing experience I’ve had playing this game”.)

What kept people coming back to Guild Wars 1 always seemed, to me, to be the annual events. Canthan New Year, Dragon Festival, Halloween, Wintersday. Actually, I found my alliance for the longest of years during a period where that was all I came back for . . .

And to note, they had me coming back just to hang out with them and lend a decent player to trying to pass PvE stuff when requested.

So I daresay what kept the majority of players in Guild Wars?

Other players being fun to play with.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey Chris, welcome back!

Although it’s not relevant to the progression system being discussed, have you seen the “Let the night be nighttime” thread yet? I added a thought in there as to how we could use making the dark darker to enhance the overall game play. It may be worth your read.

Thanks!

I saw it last night while I was reading the forums in bed but that was the one topic I didn’t read, sorry.

I will read it tonight but based on what you just said I am very intrigued and can imagine what the content will be (-:

Chris

Actually, look at this one instead People are starting to add some brilliantly creative ideas to it.

I will also add that Living Story reward should be account wide. Right now everyone only takes one character though the Living Story because of the time limit nature on these events. So of course everyone will be using their primary favourite character.

If the reward for Living Story is account wide, it won’t matter which character they take to do the LS.

CHIPS.6018:

I will also add that Living Story reward should be account wide. Right now everyone only takes one character though the Living Story because of the time limit nature on these events. So of course everyone will be using their primary favourite character.

If the reward for Living Story is account wide, it won’t matter which character they take to do the LS.

I’ll drop this here.

Add Living Story achievement-related rewards to the “Achievement Rewards” locker so they can be retrieved just like the Zenith skins.

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey Chris, welcome back!

Although it’s not relevant to the progression system being discussed, have you seen the “Let the night be nighttime” thread yet? I added a thought in there as to how we could use making the dark darker to enhance the overall game play. It may be worth your read.

Thanks!

I saw it last night while I was reading the forums in bed but that was the one topic I didn’t read, sorry.

I will read it tonight but based on what you just said I am very intrigued and can imagine what the content will be (-:

Chris

Actually, look at this one instead People are starting to add some brilliantly creative ideas to it.

Thanks for your addition but lets stay on topic. Maybe that would be nice for another CDI.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

CHIPS.6018:

I will also add that Living Story reward should be account wide. Right now everyone only takes one character though the Living Story because of the time limit nature on these events. So of course everyone will be using their primary favourite character.

If the reward for Living Story is account wide, it won’t matter which character they take to do the LS.

I’ll drop this here.

Add Living Story achievement-related rewards to the “Achievement Rewards” locker so they can be retrieved just like the Zenith skins.

Would be nice but only work for account-bound items really. Then again you may wonder if you want to give out rewards and achievements in the LS.

We are talking here about horizontal progression and rewards (as collectibles) and achievements are part of it. When you keep the Living Story just that.. a story, no rewards, no achievements and then the story leaves behind permanent content that has achievements and rewards linked to it then you you keep adding up elements to the game people can complete.. a form of horizontal progression.

By putting it in the living story it gets taken out meaning players who missed that also miss that part of the horizontal progression.

CHIPS.6018:

I will also add that Living Story reward should be account wide. Right now everyone only takes one character though the Living Story because of the time limit nature on these events. So of course everyone will be using their primary favourite character.

If the reward for Living Story is account wide, it won’t matter which character they take to do the LS.

Most of the rewards are not bound at all or account bound. Not soul bound. Or do you mean after use?

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

CHIPS.6018:

I will also add that Living Story reward should be account wide. Right now everyone only takes one character though the Living Story because of the time limit nature on these events. So of course everyone will be using their primary favourite character.

If the reward for Living Story is account wide, it won’t matter which character they take to do the LS.

I’ll drop this here.

Add Living Story achievement-related rewards to the “Achievement Rewards” locker so they can be retrieved just like the Zenith skins.

Would be nice but only work for account-bound items really. Then again you may wonder if you want to give out rewards and achievements in the LS.

We are talking here about horizontal progression and rewards (as collectibles) and achievements are part of it. When you keep the Living Story just that.. a story, no rewards, no achievements and then the story leaves behind permanent content that has achievements and rewards linked to it then you you keep adding up elements to the game people can complete.. a form of horizontal progression.

By putting it in the living story it gets taken out meaning players who missed that also miss that part of the horizontal progression.

If we’re talking about cosmetic skins with limited acquisition periods? I would definitely consider bringing this up now rather than later. It’s been said the cosmetic hunt is a form of horizontal progression really desired – to make your character look good.

This is a detail which is mildly important in that regard. Furthermore, it equally applies to any cosmetics available outside the Living Story should they choose. Such as gem purchases.

Of course, you could always have a progression line to restore the Hall of Monuments and use it to show off things like in the first game. Or in this case, retrieve things you have access to. There’s some lore-related quests some veterans would get behind . . . continue the legacy of the ancient hero remembered here OR (for those who don’t have it) forge a new legacy in this ancient monument long forgotten by time.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey Chris, welcome back!

Although it’s not relevant to the progression system being discussed, have you seen the “Let the night be nighttime” thread yet? I added a thought in there as to how we could use making the dark darker to enhance the overall game play. It may be worth your read.

Thanks!

I saw it last night while I was reading the forums in bed but that was the one topic I didn’t read, sorry.

I will read it tonight but based on what you just said I am very intrigued and can imagine what the content will be (-:

Chris

Nah, don’t be too kitten yourself mate.
Trying to read through all of this is a full time job in and of itself. I just can’t keep up even with all the time I have, so your a bloody trooper to have been able to keep up.

Just don’t burn yourself out mate.

CHIPS.6018:

Basically it comes down to this:

GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

WoW kept players playing by power creep. It takes a lot of time and effort to max equip just one character. And so everyone have to focus on one character, that’s it. The newbie zones are emptied out very quickly, because veteran players do not have time to play an alt. Since most players only ever play though 1 class, they often have great misunderstandings on other classes.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

That’s a great, succinct summary of the two extremes, but I think GW2 is a lot more nuanced than that. GW2 has tried to shorten the leveling curve from WOW greatly, and has given people more reasons to go back to early zones through the Sidekick system, living story, dynamic events, and world completion.

The allure of the GW2 world is that it is really a living world where new challenges erupt in old places, and those challenges can bring in players all along the experience curve.

GW2 has flattened the gear curve immensely, and expanded the world on offer to max level players to avoid the trap of MMO’s which are just “get on to raid” or “grind out reputation.”

The more GW2 can do to make itself utilize that world and expand the content in there, the more people are going to be happy with horizontal progression and new experiences, rather than chasing higher stat gear.

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

But what would be your issue if such instanced Content is created for People that want it if for example the shatterer and all world bosses are instanced as well as open world it woulnd’t harm you and it would be able for People to get hardmode on those bosses same with dungeons. The Point is if you have to kill shatterer or tentaql instanced with loads of debuffs gambits whatever you Need certain tactics to succed. In open world as you said People like you don’t wanna Play a certain class and mess up the Strategie of others soo instanced is always nice to push boarders let People figure things out without waiting 2 hours for a Boss to spam just that People mess up with going on Canon and Shooting somwhere in the sky…

It would split the playerbase, just like some suggestions before this one. Who would do these big events with us “Randoms” when we already struggle to get enough people for some events?

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

But what would be your issue if such instanced Content is created for People that want it if for example the shatterer and all world bosses are instanced as well as open world it woulnd’t harm you and it would be able for People to get hardmode on those bosses same with dungeons. The Point is if you have to kill shatterer or tentaql instanced with loads of debuffs gambits whatever you Need certain tactics to succed. In open world as you said People like you don’t wanna Play a certain class and mess up the Strategie of others soo instanced is always nice to push boarders let People figure things out without waiting 2 hours for a Boss to spam just that People mess up with going on Canon and Shooting somwhere in the sky…

It would split the playerbase, just like some suggestions before this one. Who would do these big events with us “Randoms” when we already struggle to get enough people for some events?

He seems to be referring to a raid dungeon system. So thats something you do with a guild. That does not split the community more then overflows or dungeons, home instances and so on do.

Chuggs.1682:

CHIPS.6018:

Basically it comes down to this:

GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

WoW kept players playing by power creep. It takes a lot of time and effort to max equip just one character. And so everyone have to focus on one character, that’s it. The newbie zones are emptied out very quickly, because veteran players do not have time to play an alt. Since most players only ever play though 1 class, they often have great misunderstandings on other classes.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

That’s a great, succinct summary of the two extremes, but I think GW2 is a lot more nuanced than that. GW2 has tried to shorten the leveling curve from WOW greatly, and has given people more reasons to go back to early zones through the Sidekick system, living story, dynamic events, and world completion.

The allure of the GW2 world is that it is really a living world where new challenges erupt in old places, and those challenges can bring in players all along the experience curve.

GW2 has flattened the gear curve immensely, and expanded the world on offer to max level players to avoid the trap of MMO’s which are just “get on to raid” or “grind out reputation.”

The more GW2 can do to make itself utilize that world and expand the content in there, the more people are going to be happy with horizontal progression and new experiences, rather than chasing higher stat gear.

Problem is that those events take place in one spot so while it might get people back to an older area it’s only in one spot or maybe a few spots but not the whole world.

If you really keep adding the content (Like I said before, so the LS is just a story but you leave behind the content that has new achievements and rewards) you are not only adding more stuff to do all the time also you give people more reason go go back to those area’s.. also later because not everybody will have been doing it right after (or like now during) the LS. At this moment it means they missed it but in my example people who missed it are likely to go there at another time.

Devata.6589:

He seems to be referring to a raid dungeon system. So thats something you do with a guild. That does not split the community more then overflows or dungeons, home instances and so on do.

sure, raids are for much more than 5 players, it does. And yes, dungeons and overflows do split the playerbase. Is it an optimal situation? No.

Well it’s my personal opinion. If I were in a guild and had time to play on schedule like many years ago (which actually drove me away from WoW) I would probably like that idea too. Today I play GW2 because it isn’t a game about raids mostly. A safe haven of all the other “hardcore raiding” games.

Tequatl (the new one) was just the experience I had with raids years ago, but with the fine difference that I won’t hurt anyone when I have to leave in the midst of the battle. And I won’t hurt anyone if I don’t show up regularly either.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Devata.6589:

He seems to be referring to a raid dungeon system. So thats something you do with a guild. That does not split the community more then overflows or dungeons, home instances and so on do.

sure, raids are for much more than 5 players, it does. And yes, dungeons and overflows do split the playerbase. Is it an optimal situation? No.

Well it’s my personal opinion. If I were in a guild and had time to play on schedule like many years ago (which actually drove me away from WoW) I would probably like that idea too. Today I play GW2 because it isn’t a game about raids mostly. A safe haven of all the other “hardcore raiding” games.

Tequatl (the new one) was just the experience I had with raids years ago, but with the fine difference that I won’t hurt anyone when I have to leave in the midst of the battle. And I won’t hurt anyone if I don’t show up regularly either.

Yeah but it has problems of it’s own like you require teamwork / roles but that means just a few people can mess it up for the rest or you take that away but then you miss the teamwork you can get in a raid.

Anyway, I don’t feel this is still about horizontal progress so will leave it with that.

The update log of my dreams >_>
PVE:
1. Sidekicking has been reintroduced.
The player that will explore maps higher than his own level will receive exp and rewards appropriate to his real level.

2. All items are now Account Bound.
(In order to “normalize” a bit some builds) All items share now the same standard stats (i.e. power/precision/vitality) and 4 minor upgrades:

• 1 Jewel (to create a carrion/berserker/knight/etc spec)
• 1 Rune (for armor only) or 1 Sigil (for weapons only)
• 2 Infusions

Players who owned an item with a specific set of stats will have that item replaced with the new one with standard stats + 1 jewel + 1 rune/sigil and 2 infusions according to their previous set.

When applied for the first time (whether they are obtained through crafting, purchase, drop, etc) the different “set of stats” (carrion/berserker/knight/etc) associated with Jewels and infusions will be “unlocked” for that item and will be switchable at will if out of combat. Runes and Sigils will also remain soulbound.

If an item with unlocked jewels/runes/sigils/infusions is given to a new character, this object will appear, however, devoid of everything previously unlocked.

The secondary character will have to re-unlock all the power-ups he need on that item.
The item will, however, hold memory of the list of “set of stats” unlocked on the previous character, if therefore returned to that one it will present the old list of unlocked mods.

3. Now skins can be permanently unlocked.

• Each transmutation crystal now grants the the ability to save the skin you are transmutating on the transmuted item.
• You will be able to switch skins at will (if out of combat) through a menu accessible right clicking on the item.
• The skins will be unlocked account bound, but if you give the item with an unlocked skin to a secondary character it will show only the original skin, in order to gain the “unlocked” skin you have to spend another transmutation crystal (select from a menu the skin, click unlock and a crystal will be consumed).

4. Added some rare and short events that occur in random locations (even low level areas).
If you manage to complete them in certain span of time you will get a rare skin reward.
Some of those can be soloed.

5. A conversion system has finally been created (with what we think is an appropriate exchange rate) to reduce the too many currencies that flock the game, this way we feel that everyone will be able to play how he wants and still attain goals related to our slow vertical progression.

6. Laurels are now Character Bound.

7. Dailies are now weekly.
You will get rewards (exp/money/karma) at 25%-50%-75%(chance of bltc item)-100%.

8. Now if you reach the maximum level, you will be able to destinate a percentage of the extra-accumulated experience to another character of your account who has already
gained at least 40 levels.

9. We created 2 types of Hard Mode:

• Dungeons Hard Mode: this will provide users better rewards (+15% gold, and karma).
  Mobs will hit you harder and bosses will behave differently and more randomly.
• Open PvE Hard Mode: this will grant you a magic find bonus. Players can activate/deactivate the HM with a delay of 1h, but it is possible to reset the delay changing map using a WP.
  PvE HM consist in a downlevelling system that significantly reduces your stats and disable specific skills/stats/traits.

TRADING POST:

• TP has now some limitations that prevent flipping being too lucrative and we set a cap (an high one) to the gold that can be earned weekly from it.
• We removed the ability to buy/sell Legendary weapons.

BLACK LION COMPANY:
We slip gems in two subcategory:

Common Gems:

• You can purchase them with Gold.
• You can purchase them with Real Money.
• They give you access to all the items of the BLC except armors/weapons skins
• You can use them to purchase a specific RNG chest with rare (not extremely) chance to obtain a “MAP” (item) for the skin you are looking for.
  These chest will become available only after one month (or two) from the release of the new skins.

Rare Gems:

• You can purchase them with Gold, but with an extremely high exchange rate. (You will spend something like -the actual value of- 150g for a single skin)
• You can purchase them with real money. (You will need something like 10€ for a single skin)
• They give access to all objects of the BLC, but the main function is to allow the acquisition of the new skins.
  The skin will not be available instantly, indeed, you will get a “MAP” (item) that will trigger a random event around the world that once completed will reward you with the skin.

GENERAL:

• We are working on getting rid of the Zergfest, so we decided to scale better events.
• Now you can upgrade Transmutation Stones to Transmutation Crystals through the forge. 15 TS = 1 TC
• Scavenger hunt has finally been implemented. Enjoy your journey.
• We fixed all the clipping issues you tirelessly posted on the bug section (expecially for the poor Charr) since beta!

HP summary page 41 to 46 Part 1
Ok next summary update. This again is going to be a rather long summery with a large focus on the journey. For anyone looking for up-to-date topic information and a complete index of all summaries over the Character Progression CDI The Lost Witch has created CDI – Character Progression – Summaries. Again if I’ve missed anything let me know.

Top One Tally (update to pg 34)

1. Sociopolitical Diversification (26)
2. Role Diversification (25)
3. Zone & Order progression (12)
4. Hero Recognition (10)
5. Skin Locker / Wardrobe (2)
6. New Permanent Zones (1)

Please note I’ve separated Sociopolitical & Zone / Order progression as I feel Zone & Order can incorporate large elements of role diversification and hero recognition as well.

• A great post by Ronah to help everyone brainstorm.

Character Progression
*Swish join in the CDI with Random Thoughts on the subject matter behind a spoiler.

• Asia Skyly thoughts on requirements for HP.
• ZudetGambeous thoughts on HP and the impact of gold. DiogoSilva looks at the same problem coming up with Skill-Gated Currency and The Lost Witch asks questions about skill currency and skill gating.This sparks a discussion around skill gating in the below posts.
• Kimyrielle joins the discussion looking at Player Housing & Clothing.

HP summary page 41 to 46 Part 2
Again if I’ve missed anything let me know.

Build Content

• Munkiman look at introducing new skills that use consumables as a new interesting game mechanic. A plus for skill expansion and crafting.
• Ben K presents Trait Quests looking at adding more progression to traits.

Sub-classes

• Orpheal starts sub-classes again and is amazed with all the idea’s presented.
• Septemptus believe we have everything we need in the current system but looks at specializations with the school system.
• Chuggs reason for sub-classes Masteries progression that rewards, adds gameplay variety and new content.

The other side

• Shakkara finds sub-classes wanting.

Player Housing

• Darkace looks at shaping player housing by in game actions not wanting any Gem shop involvement.
• Conski Deshan expands player housing looking at examples form both Rift and Wow. Then asks questions about housing.
• PopeUrban joins in on the discussion of player housing, looking at the objective and usefulness of said housing.
• DarkWasp dreams of player housing and creates imaginary game update notes. Quite an amazing presentation that includes 5 post each one below the other.
• Tobias Trueflight links their idea from the Guild Halls/Player Housing thread. Breaking down Conski’s housing questions and replying here.
  
  Zone Progression
• Zamalek explores Malchior’s idea referring to Planetside 2’s Zone Alerts with Ley Lines.

Crafting

• LanfearShadowflame finds discrepancy in the gathering and acquisition between wood, ore, cloth, and leather. Expanding cloth and leather options through expansion of gathering tools.

Other ideas

• Nike wonders about vanquishing could this be another dungeon mode. Marcus Greythorne jumps in with further ideas.

Not relating to HP

• Guhracie looks at reducing the need for overflow servers and helping lower population servers with this idea on Underflow Servers.
• Nike looks at the invisibility of reward diminishing returns and comes up with Champion Bag Counter also looking to spread player population between all the maps.